How agencies and brands are approaching budgets and new projects for 2020 and beyond with Lee McKnight

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Agency Management Institute Community, where you’ll learn how to grow and scale your business, attract and retain the best talent, make more money, and keep more of what you make. The Build A Better Agency Podcast presented by White Label IQ is packed with insights on how small to mid-sized agencies survive and thrive in today’s market.

Bringing his 25+ years of experience as both an agency owner and an agency consultant, please welcome your host, Drew McLellan.

Drew McLellan:

Hey, everybody. Drew McLellan here from Agency Management Institute. Welcome to another episode of Build a Better Agency. One of the topics that I have been chatting with agency owners a lot of lately, this is always in the top three topics, but lately, it has really been a hot and heavy. It’s a whole conversation around biz dev. So, I think you’re going to love our guest today and his insights around that.

Before I tell you about him and what we’re going to talk about today, I want to remind you of a couple of things. Number one, we have put together an assessment that you can take in about five minutes and it asks you a series of probably 30 questions or so around some key areas of operation inside your agency. After you complete the assessment, it will email you some thoughts about your results, and then you’re going to get a series of emails with recommendations.

So, basically, it’s going to say, “Boy, this is the area in your agency that maybe needs the most focus right now,” and then you’re going to get I think it’s three or four emails from me over a period of a few weeks with resources that will help you hone in on that specific area of growth for you. So, no selling, no pitching, nothing like that, just me trying to be helpful, but dripping the help on you because with every email, there’s going to be things you need to look at or read or review or listen to, and then think about how you want to implement them in your agency. So, I don’t want to overwhelm you with too much all at once. So, we’ve staggered it over a little bit of time.

So, to get to that assessment and to get that support after the assessment, head over to agencymanagementinstitute.com/assessment. Bet that’s not a big surprise to you that that’s how we did it, but that’s what it is, agencymanagementinstitute.com/assessment. Again, you’ll get a quick little report on what your answers told us and where you need to focus some attention in the near future, and then some support around doing that, okay?

As you might imagine, one of the topics in that assessment is your biz dev efforts, and that is absolutely the topic that we are going to cover today. so, many of you are familiar with Lee McKnight. Lee is the VP of sales at RSW/US, which is an outsource business development group that works solely with agencies. I’ve known Lee and Mark, the CEO, and RSW for quite a long time. They’re good, good people. They’re very committed to agencies and their success, and they’ve helped many agencies have greater success.

So, Lee and his team have been producing some amazing content as we have been navigating our way out of COVID. They always actually produce great content. If you don’t follow Lee on LinkedIn or you’re not connected with him or you don’t follow their LinkedIn page, you really should because the content is spot on. They’re all about the small to mid-sized agencies just like AMI is. So, we talk the same language to the same people, and I just find them to be really good, genuine people, but the reason why I asked Lee to be back on the show because this will be an encore episode for him is because they’ve been doing some research about how brands and agencies are fairing through COVID. They did their first piece of research in March, and they did the second one in mid May.

It’s interesting to see the comparison, but it’s also very interesting as in mid May we’re beginning to head back to the office, people are feeling like they can start to get back to work in a more concentrated way. It’s fascinating to see what both brands and agencies are thinking and saying and planning to do. So, I wanted Lee to come on the show and share all of that with us, and also there’s some other things that I want to ask him about in regards to agency and business. So, without any further ado, let’s welcome Lee to the podcast and dig in.

All right. Lee, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for coming back.

Lee McKnight:

yeah. Thanks so much for having me again, Drew. Great to be back.

Drew McLellan:

So, the timeliness of this is twofold. Number one, we’re recording this on May 20th. So, we’re two months in here in the states in what is the COVID crisis. I’ve noticed in the last two weeks agencies are … There was the panic phase, and then there was the paralysis phase, and then there was the getting money from other government phase, right? Now, it feels like everybody is like, “Okay. I have to get actually back to work now. I need to hunker down.”

So, all of a sudden, I’m having agencies that I’m interacting with wanting to talk a lot more about biz dev than they have in the last four or six weeks. They are now very focused on if some of their clients hit the pause button or went away, they’ve got to replace that deficit, and even if they are one of the fortunate agencies, which about 20% or 25% of agencies I talk to are in the position that they are as busy or busier than they were pre-COVID, but nonetheless, everyone’s waiting for the boogeyman around the corner that we can identify. So, biz dev has become super important.

So, you guys did some research, and then you just in this last couple days released the followup piece of research. So, tell everybody a little bit about both of those pieces of research, and then I want to dig in to some of the findings that you just released earlier.

Lee McKnight:

Sure. Yeah. So, initially, I think it was about the last week of March. We released, surveyed, I should say, some agencies, marketers in one of the snapshot of where we are. I think it was open for maybe four days utmost, and we had a pretty good turnout even for that limited window.

What we wanted to do was, that was back in March, and let’s take a snapshot of where are we now. That was, I think, May 12th when we shot that down, so we just really set it a couple of days ago. So, we wanted to be able to ask some of the same questions around spend to marketers, to agencies around some new business and where they were, and be able to show folks, “Okay. We are moving,” as you mentioned, “into a new phase, if you will, where states gradually reopening, and now it’s always been the time.”

You talk about, and I get it, I mean, we talked with an agency yesterday. I did that and said, “We’ve been laser-focused on taking care of our clients,” some of them are opposing, all the things you just mentioned, and you’re exactly right, Drew. It’s, “We want to talk to you now. Can you help us? We got to get on this.”

So, we wanted to put this out as a snapshot to … It’s a path for agencies as much as we could understanding that the way things change. It’s the same as that March report. People that are still downloading I’m almost thinking, I was telling our President Mark that maybe we should take the first one down because I don’t know if any of it relates even though it wasn’t very long ago.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, it’s crazy how quickly the landscape is changing.

Lee McKnight:

Yes. Yeah, it really is. So, that’s where we were. There were some interesting, some things that people may not be a surprise some that gave some hope and some that I hope will light a fire under some agencies to say exactly what you mentioned. If you haven’t been, you got to get going on the new business side or however you do it.

Drew McLellan:

Right. So, I think one of the data points that was repeated in a couple of different questions was this idea that from … So, interestingly, your survey talked to clients and client-side folks and also agency and agency-side folks. So, on the client-side folk, one of the things that as you said, probably gives folks hope, is this idea that for the majority of your respondents, they have no intention of not marketing in the back half of the year and, in fact, most of them think that the spending is going to be either unchanged or increased as business gets back going, right? Can you talk a little bit about that?

Lee McKnight:

Yeah. So, I mean, that was my favorite stat, but I mentioned we have this video series and the one we put out this week. I mentioned this stat. It was what I think a total of 68% of marketers expect the second half of 2020, marketing and advertising spending to remain unchanged or increased. Let’s all hope that’s true relative to where we are now. It is absolutely a snapshot. So, that’s the first thing I pointed out is let’s celebrate with caution when we read that stat because I’m sure you see, I know you do, everyday we’re reading something from MediaPost to Adweek to you name it, where they will refute those numbers and say, “No, it’s just the opposite, actually.”

So, I know we have to be careful and, certainly, what we are not going to be doing is pushing this out to say, “Whew! We’re back, baby,” but I think absolutely given that stat, it is a snapshot, it should, if nothing else, give agencies hope, and I don’t mean to be a Pollyanna when I say that, but I think at the end of the day, these are real marketers telling us that this is their intent and all we can do right now, and I’m not going to throw out the word uncertain, because it’s, oh, my gosh, it’s overused. I think we can get a tattoo of it by now.

Drew McLellan:

Right. Let’s avoid uncertain and challenging times. Those are the phrases that just make me great now.

Lee McKnight:

Oh, my gosh! I think if I also see the word grim one more time, I’m going to lose it. We get it. Yes, stark and grim. So, if nothing else there, I think that is important. The other just important piece of it is, and now this is going to be somewhat anecdotally, although we have hard numbers from our own company with our own agency clients, so we’re reaching out trying to get them new business. The first couple of weeks, of course, we saw some slow down, and hat we’re doing is going to get qualified meetings for our clients and trying to help them get closer to close. Sure.

The first couple of weeks, to your point, shock across the board. Thankfully since then, the numbers have stayed pretty solid comparatively to where we were this time last year, for example, and I know you’ve mentioned it on several of your videos and you talking to agencies. We’re seeing closes.

Drew McLellan:

Absolutely.

Lee McKnight:

So, it’s there. I think that’s what agencies with that stat should hold on to to say, “All right. You shouldn’t need it, but read that and realize that it’s going to happen.” I think what I love about one of the videos that you put out a little while back was our industry, it’s always been about risk. While this is different than what we’ve ever been through, this is what we do. I glommed on to that because I thought that was, yeah, you got to remind yourself of that.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. I think one of the challenges as we are on this information hunt for what just I think everybody is looking for help me understand what’s happening and what’s going to happen next. I was on the phone the other day with somebody who does what I do, so runs a network for agencies, but their agencies are much larger than the agencies that I tend to work with. So, they have multiple hundred employees for the most part. He was saying that they’re really struggling, that the larger agencies are struggling.

So, I think when we read adage or any of the other industry pubs, we have to also remember that they typically are talking to and about agencies much larger than your audience or my audience. So, I actually think this is good news, and I think your data reflects that for agencies who are 100 people or less, who are going after that mid-range client, they are small enough and nimble enough to have budget to keep growing and spending, where I think some of the large clients that the large big box agencies serve, I think they are at a different struggle point than we are. I think it’s helpful in this circumstance to be a smaller fish in a smaller pond.

Lee McKnight:

I think that’s an excellent point because it was astounding to me. There’s been two or three very large agencies that I’ve had conversations with as of late that, quite frankly, we don’t normally because, to your point, we work our sweet spot as a small to mid-sized agency. It was astounding to me, again, to your point, where they were from a new business standpoint and how out to see they were.

You think, “What?” It’s like, “Why are you talking?” not that you shouldn’t be talking to us.

So, I do agree with you that that certainly speaks to folks that you and I deal with most often. I do think because they’re more nimble, one example yesterday was talking to a firm that wanted to come onboard and they were talking about a brand new client they just got. This is a good lesson to get new clients. If you have current clients, you got to stay on top of this because of the financial.

They couldn’t understand why this new campaign that they had, I think a Google Ads campaign, where they were driving folks to their mortgage calculator page. That was the headline. You get there, there was no mortgage calculator.

Drew McLellan:

Uh-oh.

Lee McKnight:

This agency is like, “Can you imagine?” Us coming on, they hired us and we pointed a few things out, that being the main one, and they did not know. So, it was little things like that, and this is that sweet spot. Anyway, not to get off topic there, but I just thought there are opportunities out there right now. This is about a 25-person firm I was talking to.

Drew McLellan:

I think part of the good news for small to mid-sized agencies is the kind of clients that we pursue are quicker to make decisions. You’re not going through agency search firm to get to Coca-Cola, to get on their shortlist, to get on their preferred vendor list, whatever. This is somebody who’s going to 50 or 100K or quarter of a million dollars to spend, and they’re talking to three people and they’re going to award it next week.

Every day, I’m hearing from the agencies that we serve that they’re either landing new projects with existing clients or they’re landing new clients. So, there is activity out there, and it’s happening, right?

Lee McKnight:

Yeah, yeah. You’re exactly right. They’re not going through procurement for the most cases. Yeah. That’s exactly right.

Drew McLellan:

Honestly, I think part of this is when someone is not being nagged along and urged along with a partner like you, agencies, as a general rule, suck and do business. We all do the feast and famine thing and all of that. So, part of why a lot of agencies are having success in their biz dev efforts right now is because they’re actually doing some.

Lee McKnight:

Well, good point.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, right?

Lee McKnight:

Yeah. I think that’s exactly right. It’s interesting because I thought one of the things recently, and this is not new, but I think because the pressure is, I guess, more immense than it’s ever been, I have had several new business directors, whatever the title is, at agencies calling me and saying, “Leadership right now is going nuts. They have lost the concept of nurturing and they want it now.” I’ve had several agency owners say, “All right. This new business person, this is when we need it.”

I think now is certainly that time where those two need to come together and there is a middle ground that I think plans need to … It’s how to get there and talk about expectations right now and I think on both sides because … So, that’s been interesting. It’s always been there.

Drew McLellan:

Well, and the reality is the agencies in my world that are landing new clients and all of that, it’s not because they started biz dev on March 15th. These are seeds that they’ve planted a year and a half ago that they’re just finally coming to fruition. So, again, not that, I mean, I know this is a drum that you beat and that I beat everyday, but I think what’s happening right now should be proof to every agency that they’ve got to have a biz dev program, that something is happening every single stinking day, so that when you get to this moment, and God willing, we’re not going to have another pandemic in our lifetime, but you will have your biggest client walk out the door. You will have a key employee walk out and take two clients and two employees with them.

I mean, again, this is back to that we’re always at risk. This is what we do for living, right? So, you’ve got to have something that protects you and is constantly back filling and creating opportunity. I think that’s one of the things agencies are really, to your point, that you can’t just flip on the switch and prospects come walking in the door. This is because of the price point of the work we do and because of the risk on the client side. If they do this wrong, they hire the wrong agency, the agency doesn’t perform, that CMO loses their job.

We are absolutely a considered purchase, and there is no coupon or buy one get one free deal that we can offer to get somebody to open up their wallet faster than they’re ready to open it, right?

Lee McKnight:

Yeah. Absolutely. Although I will point out, too, just because some more than anecdotal evidence slightly, but one of the stats we pointed out in this companion report, we looked at and we asked marketers where have they been spending. It lines up with of all the closes that our clients have gotten in the last six weeks, I’d say roughly 60% have been where it was something maybe you got paused or to your point, we had been helping them drive better. They’ve been driving it for a time, but about that 40% were ones that actually did come fairly quickly.

So, those are out there, too. What we saw and where they’re spending probably, this probably doesn’t surprise no one, it was social media, 57%, digital advertising, email, and PR. That’s where those agencies now if you’re not, I mean, not like a dog after a bone, but if this is where you play, now is your time and, thankfully, not a blanket statement that every firm out there has, at least one of those, but most have integrated over these last decades. You can capitalize on the fact that now that digital piece is so important or partner with someone. I know that’s easy to say out of the gate, but I think that was interesting to me, and that is where we’ve seen, and I’m sure probably you as well, a lot of that activity right now.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. It would be really interesting to ask those people who it was not something that had been in play for a while. So, the 40% that were just like, “Yes, I need it now,” it would be interesting to know how long they’d known the agency they hired. Was it like, “I need it today and I’m just going to look around for a store to go buy it,” or “I need it today and this agency has been courting me for a while, so they’ll be one of the three I’d talk to”?

Lee McKnight:

Well, you’re very right about that because part of our value to clients is getting in those doors, but I would say almost equally it is that ongoing awareness, to your point, driving it with value. I mean, I think one of the things that’s really interested me lately and I save all these emails is you would have thought that the really bad generic salesmanship would have lessened. It’s gotten worse, and I’m taking us a little bit off topic here, but I got one yesterday where he said, “We guarantee 20, no, dozens to hundreds of leads and they are red hot.”

Drew McLellan:

Wow.

Lee McKnight:

It’s like, “Wait a minute, man.” I go, “First of all, that’s a very odd disparity. So, it could be dozens or hundreds. So, we get to choose.”

Drew McLellan:

I would like the hundreds, please.

Lee McKnight:

I know. I’d have the hundreds and please qualify red hot because I like it. It’s like, “Come on, man. You can’t …” This wasn’t an agency, although I’ve seen a few lately that I’m like, “You’re pushing it, and you got to be careful here.”

So, yeah, that’s a really good point. I think I would say almost those 40% most of them I think one I know for a fact was newer, and they just hit the timing just right, but, yeah. It’s been the ongoing awareness that, yeah, which is important. It’s a good point you bring up.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. Well, agency biz dev has always been about dollar cost averaging, right? We have no idea when they’re going to be ready to hire an agency, so we got to be present all the time, right? That’s our thing.

Lee McKnight:

Which makes it hard, but, yes.

Drew McLellan:

Yup, yup. So, on the agency side of the data for you, what surprised you the most on this companion piece?

Lee McKnight:

Well, what wasn’t good, and I think most of the report was positive for firms, and by the way, you can download that at our site, not trying to make it a commercial, but we’ve been talking about it.

Drew McLellan:

We’ll include the link at the show notes, for sure.

Lee McKnight:

Yeah, and that’s a free download. I mean, we want folks to be able to capitalize on it and plan on it if they can. The one I didn’t love was 67% of firms saying they are somewhat prepared or unprepared to find and when new business and states begin to reopen. That’s not a great stat. I was very surprised at the self-awareness because they usually flip it. Most agencies say, “Oh, we got it.” Usually, it’s the inverse. So, that’s good that they realize that, but, man, if-

Drew McLellan:

That’s a big number.

Lee McKnight:

Yeah. To be fair that we combine the stat, we’re somewhere and very unprepared. So, if you break it out, it’s not quite a stark, but that specifically is what I mentioned when I talked about that what I hope is a wake up call for agencies to start something. I mean, baby steps is key. All these agencies fail typically because they bite off more than they can chew right out of the gate, and think we have to do everything right now and have everything right.

Drew McLellan:

Right. We must paint the Mona Lisa by Friday.

Lee McKnight:

Yeah, exactly, exactly, right? So, that was surprising to me that it was that big a number, but I think then as a companion to that stat, you saw one was over the past four to six weeks that 51% of firms said they somewhat or significantly increased new business activity. So, okay, promising, that’s good. So, then I think also there was one more about we asked, “Have you changed your agency’s positioning or messaging?” As of March 24th, 55% of agencies said yes.

Fast forward to May 12th and 69%. So, almost 70. It’s a double-edged sword there because what we saw early on, I personally only saw one example of it, but had seen others out there, where as a firm, some of these folks were like, “We got to get a toilet paper client. We got to get Purell,” or whatever it is. It’s like if you haven’t been doing that before, no. I get it, but then the flip side and the positive part of that, what I hoped that, what was surprising to me, I I was hoping that would be 100% because there are too many agencies where it’s business as usual, and even now, you see nothing on their site. You see nothing on their LinkedIn page. I’m not saying it has to, “We’re all here to help.” We’ve acknowledged it. Let’s move on past that, but not saying anything, and it’s like, “Are you still in business? Do clients and prospects know that?”

We’ve been seeing it’s week-to-week. I don’t know now that, knock on wood, I think I’ve seen some of it in what you’re doing, Drew, talking about it, it is stabilizing a bit. I think that messaging has got to change and almost be reviewed on almost a weekly basis to where you’re not saying, “We’re all in this together.” You’re not using uncertain, and now it’s time to move forward. Let’s get concrete about how you’ve helped clients.

We just brought a client on that did a really nice new case study on, “Here’s what we did for this particular client when this outbreak happened,” and showed concretely how they jumped in there and became leaders for that client. We haven’t seen the finished product, but I’m like, “That’s great.”

Drew McLellan:

It’s a great story to tell, absolutely.

Lee McKnight:

It is. It’s not the fluff. My wife, everyone, I’m sure, well, not everyone, but the Last Dance, that documentary on the Bulls, which is whether you’re … I’m actually more of a college basketball guy. NBA, I don’t, but amazing story just whether you care about sports or not, but my wife in the last couple of episodes had mentioned, “You know what? State Farm is making my day,” because they’re actually injecting some humor. They’re showing how they’re actually helping. It’s not another Zoom frame with filler language about helping, but how really are you helping.

Drew McLellan:

Is that that YouTube compilation video of how every brand starts with this somber music and then you have the empty streets and, yeah.

Lee McKnight:

Yeah. I’m not trying to … I get it. They needed to do that, but bringing it back to new business, I mean, we’re not going back to business as usual. Everyone knows that, but it is something where you got to watch that messaging ongoing and not be tone deaf now and, yeah, everybody is going through it. You don’t need to remind them they’re going through it. They’re at home like you are. Yeah.

Drew McLellan:

Well, I think what you do want to show them is that you know how to help them get through it, right? We understand the phases that this is going to come in. We’ve done our homework. We understand the power of marketing through a recession, yada, yada, yada. So, let us help you do it well.

Lee McKnight:

Yes. I think that’s definitely it and agencies not being afraid. I mean, even today, I mean, I understood the sentiment when all this started, even though you had to push through, but I talked to a couple of agencies who said, “We’re really not doing the new business thing now. We’re focusing on current clients. We’ll get there. I don’t even think it’s going to resonate.” It’s like, “Don’t know. Do not do that. It is …”

Now, yes, you have to be appropriate. You have to take these steps, and take care of clients, and then clients have always come first and the agency and the business tends to always come last, but you can’t have that in your mind that still now is not the time.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. I think as long as you’re appropriate.

Lee McKnight:

Absolutely. 100%, yes.

Drew McLellan:

I think giving everybody a week or two in early March when everybody was freaking out and trying to figure out how to work from home, that probably would have fallen on pretty deaf ears, but now, we’re two months in. Everybody is like, A, “I’ve plugged the holes that I needed to plug. Either my business is or isn’t surviving this,” and in many cases, people are doing better.

I think the media has done a bit of a disservice. It makes it sound like everyone’s business is an inch away from having to close. That’s not true. It’s not true on the agency side, and it’s not true on the brand side. So, I think there is huge opportunity for agencies to step up to demonstrate that, “Look, we can lead you through this.”

To your point, your messaging is going to have to changed and be nuanced more often through this, so that you appear compassionate and sensitive, but also helpful and forward-facing, and we’re going to have to keep adjusting that. We know how to do that, and let us show you how we’ve done it for other people. That’s a compelling story to tell.

Lee McKnight:

It really is. I think I’m glad, and I don’t know if we’d get there, I’m glad that you mentioned media, and I’m not trying to inject politics in any stretch into this, but I 100% agree because I think I get passionately upset and I’m reminding myself and I will give kudos to you because what I’ve liked about some of your recent content while you’ve always done a really nice job tactically, for example, on the new business side of things, what I’ve really appreciated from you lately is talking about some of that mental health.

I don’t know if that gets talked about enough because it can come off as fluffy, but I do, I’m not trying to blow the smoke, Drew, but I do think you strike a nice balance of we have to be realistic, but you’ve got to think about your mental health because you’re leading this boat of agency owners and leaders, and you’ve got to remember that.

I do think, to me, I’ve told some of our salespeople and just some other folks like I’ve stopped getting on the news so often other than maybe AP news, where it’s straight down the middle and realize that they have what they need to do, if it bleeds it leads, and all that good stuff, whatever, but it’s not helpful in a lot of ways. So, being a leader, having that content that you’ve been producing, and our President Mark has done some of the same things, people need to hear some of that.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, right. I think our clients need to hear that, too.

Lee McKnight:

They do.

Drew McLellan:

So, I think this is a place where agency leaders can step up as well. I think we’re so focused on data and numbers and blog, that sometimes I think the human side of it gets a lost. So, I think now in particular when everybody is rubbed a little raw in their own, every human being has suffered some sort of a loss through this, whether it’s they haven’t been able to see a new grandbaby or they didn’t get to have a graduation ceremony.

I’ve had a lot of clients who have lost a parent in the last couple of months, couldn’t be with them during their final moments. So, everybody. I don’t care how nice your house is, I don’t care how great it is that you can cook new meals everyday and you feel bad about feeling bad, but the reality is everybody has suffered something through this.

I think acknowledging that and having that human connection as an agency leader, as you’re talking to prospects about how they’re functioning through all of this, I think that’s got to be part of the conversation.

Lee McKnight:

I think so. I think agencies shouldn’t be weary of doing that. I mean, you just brought it up. That was some of the content I thought was particularly pointing about the survivor’s guilt. I mentioned in a comment in your LinkedIn video, I was like, “I’ve exactly talked to agencies about that in the last two weeks,” several that have been doing really well and one that said, “I’m embarrassed to say that,” and others that more than embarrassed. They’re like, “I just don’t want to talk about it.”

I’m like, “Wait a minute. Yes. I mean, you’re not broadcasting it to the rooftop, but don’t feel bad about that for God’s sake. I mean, you know what? You should be looking at it maybe this is a time to hire or it’s a time …” whatever it is. Yeah. People are going through a lot, but if you’re doing well, God bless and don’t feel bad about that. You got families and employees to take care of.

Drew McLellan:

Right. You know what? One of the things that has been true about agency life for the 30 some years I’ve been in it is, you know what? You harvest when there’s a good harvest, and you squirrel it away because you know you’re not always going to have one. So, regardless of where your agency is at, whether if you’re one of the agencies that has been not to their knees, hopefully, you’ve squirreled it away and you’re able to survive through this. If you’re one of the agencies that happens to be serving in an industry that is thriving through this, you know what? Harvest, harvest, harvest, and then be smart about tucking some of it away, but don’t not take advantage of opportunity because you feel bad that other people don’t have them. That doesn’t make any sense, right?

Lee McKnight:

No, no, no, it doesn’t. Yeah. Be judicious, I think you had said that, used that exact word, which I liked. Yeah. It’s interesting just as we talked about just the back and forth of where agencies are, but I think, if nothing else, we do know and I mentioned in this video today and I keep going back to that, but got to move forward. Every state is going to be different, and everything, but at the end of the day, you have no choice.

Drew McLellan:

That’s right. Absolutely right. Yup. So, I want to take a quick break, and then when I come back, and then before we hit the record button, I was saying you guys have been just cranking out great content.

Lee McKnight:

Oh, thank you.

Drew McLellan:

One of the pieces of content that I’ve loved the most is your focus on what a good case study looks like. So, I want to dig in to that when we come back from the break.

Sorry for the interruption, but I wanted to make sure you knew that for a limited time, probably till the end of June or so, we are offering all of our on-demand courses at 50% off. I know that all of you are trying to maximize any spare time that you or your team have, and this may be a great time for you to think about biz dev, get your AEs tuned up or think about how you’re going to manage the money inside your agency.

So, we have those three courses. We have the AE Bootcamp, we have the agency new business blueprint, and we have money matters, all on-demand and for now all at 50% off. All you have to do is head over to agencymanagementinstitute.com/online-courses. Again, agencymanagementinstitute.com/online-courses, and you will see the description for all three courses, and you can register there. All you have to do is register and it automatically calculates the 50% off. I hope it helps.

All right. We are back. Before the break, I was saying to Lee that I wanted to pick his brain a little bit about the case study. So, for many of you, one of the upside, the silver linings of the last couple of months is that you’ve had time to really think about your new business tools and I have never ever heard anybody who focuses on biz dev and who does that as a living, who guides agencies through that and say, “You know what? Case studies, they don’t work.” I’ve never heard it, but I’ve heard a lot of them say, “Well, I see a lot of bad case studies.”

So, you guys did a great job and it was a blog post video series combo. Talk to us about what you discovered about what makes a great case study, and what should we be thinking about is we polish off and rebuild case studies, now that we have a little time to do that.

Lee McKnight:

Sure. Well, thank you, one, and what we realized, just quick background, was you always, and agencies should be thinking this way, too, and not that I need to tell, not necessarily, but with content, always being evergreen, right? Once this all kicked in, a lot of what we’re doing is not evergreen, and that’s fine because this is just what it is. It’s the same with you, I know, but we tried to brainstorm on about a month ago, and a lot of these irons were in the fire, if you will. Before, it was, “Okay, but what can we do that will maybe be evergreen but will help now?” It’s always been on the back burner.

So, part of what we do for our clients, we have the marketing communications team. For them, we thought, “Okay. Let’s have them own something,” the way that I know a lot of us, when I say us, you and I know others out there. I think Jody Sutter I know had mentioned this the other day, too, and talking about several folks. Now is the time to, as you said, get some of these things done that you’ve been wanting to do or know you should do. So, we thought, “This primer, if you will, this guide, let’s do it now. Let’s fast track it, if you will.” So, I give our marketing team kudos and did a nice job on it.

So, what it is? It’s, basically, it’s a top line guide, although we do get into some weeds, but we’re also wanting to have, and we’ll have the fifth part of it published this week, I believe, of blog post to get it some depth because agencies just struggle so much with case studies.

Drew McLellan:

Mightily, they struggle, right.

Lee McKnight:

I get it, but it’s interesting. It’s the same way with our messaging and positioning. They’re so close to it. So, we thought, “Okay. Let’s find some ways to help them from a design standpoint and from a copy standpoint. Let’s give you some guidelines and some rules,” and that’s on our site, and that’s where we stood. I’ve been happy to see that a lot of firms have downloaded that and had told me, “Thank you. If we could just get a starting point for this, that will get us going.”

So, I think, for us, one of the biggest things out of the gate that we try to get out there is, I’ll just say it, the verbal diarrhea that happens so much with case studies, number one. One of the things that we point in one of the posts, and our mar-comm team has written all these posts. It wasn’t me. So, I won’t take any credit for it.

It’s a handshake. It’s not storytelling. It’s always one of those things where when you’re top of the funnel, and case studies aren’t always this way. You can often use them as followup, but one of the things, just have to understand is that your prospects just don’t have time upfront, at least, to pour through this avalanche of, “Here’s our whole story.” So, I think that was the first thing is … A lot of agency new business, don’t overthink it. What we try to do is have a structure where here’ the beginning, middle, and end of that case study. Think about results being forward. Get that out of the way first, if you will.

Drew McLellan:

Which for many case studies is the last thing they share, right?

Lee McKnight:

Last thing, yup. That, to me, that’s probably the first thing that we try to get out there is to talk about the fact that, and, well, the other piece is that if I have heard any, maybe the biggest challenge, and you tell me, Drew, if you agree and if you’ve heard this always is those firms, it’s tough, who can’t show the quantifiable results either because a client won’t let them or because the type of firm they are doesn’t lend itself to, “We increase sales by 40%.” When you have that data-

Drew McLellan:

… or their clients won’t share it.

Lee McKnight:

… or they won’t share it, yeah, which happens a lot, too. There are ways to still do it. I think that’s probably, that’s where I’d point firms if they’re struggling, where we give out four, I think it’s four just, “Here’s some ways to think about how you can still …” because you had a result, and there’s a way to show it. Man, agencies struggle with that more than anything else, which I do understand, but don’t feel like because you don’t have that hard percentage that you can’t still show value and success.

Drew McLellan:

So, share with the listeners some of the other ways that you recommend sharing and showing results.

Lee McKnight:

Well, part of it I think is just certainly depending on what type of firm you are. I know experiential is always one where they struggle, for example, but I think it’s ultimately, even if it … Well, first of all, “Do you have any data at all?” I think is where you start. If you don’t have a hard percentage, well, I’d be careful to what I say here. I was going to say I bet, but what we have seen with our own clients when they struggle with that is, “I bet you do have something that is quantifiable, first of all, where you think you may not, whether it’s clicks or where you may not …” and maybe that sounds a little bit too obvious, but you might be surprised how many firms are like, “Oh, you know what? Yeah. Well, I’m …”

So, what we always say is first just ask yourself, “What was the end result?” Just talk to us. Tell us what the end result was. What they typically find is, “Oh, well, I just … Yeah, I didn’t even realize that that was success.” So, I think that’s the first step is asking yourself, “How did that end? What happened there?”

Then you have to get in to vertical-by-vertical or service-by-service to show them ultimately, “This is how we helped that client at the end,” and do it in a concise way that still shows that value. I realized I’m being a bit broad here, but it’s tough to pin down a succinct example. We try to give several where ultimately we can show, “Here’s how you can walk yourself through that process.”

Drew McLellan:

Right. Part of it starts with, and we are often not as good at this as we need to, part of this starts with finding success before we start and then figuring out how we’re going to measure that success so that we can have a result at the end.

Lee McKnight:

That’s a good point.

Drew McLellan:

This is absolutely something that agencies can improve on, which is having a conversation with a client ideally or at least internally that says, “Okay. We’re about to launch this campaign, this thing,” whatever it is. Success, what does that look like? Let’s get agreement from the client that that’s what success looks like, and then we can also have the conversation with the client at that moment. How are we going to measure this? What are the data points or what are the proof points that this worked because then you have the hardest part of the case study, to find before you even start.

Lee McKnight:

No, I think that that’s a great point. I understand that that’s not the first thought when agencies are going in to doing that kind of work, but I think that’s an excellent point that if you can consider anytime you’re helping a client with a new project or whatever it might be, let’s think about this upfront. Once you get into that mindset, I think it’s going to be easier for agencies than they think. I hate to ever use the word easy when it comes to new business, but at least you can, you got to be careful here, but you can at least get a template for the team, not the case study template per se, but where, to your point, you can start to tick off where you think success could and map that out in terms of how you could use it within the case study.

Drew McLellan:

I know one of the things that people are asking me alignment to about, so I suspect they’re asking you as well, what are you seeing, right now, what are you seeing agencies do that is getting them a conversation or a meeting? Are they talking about different things? Are they sending refrigerator doors? What are they doing right now to get a prospect’s attention enough to actually have a conversation? What’s effective right now?

Lee McKnight:

Yeah. No, that’s a good question. We, about every other week, well, we have conversations with our salespeople every week, and we’re all training. I mean, we’re not in the office, obviously, and we have kind of taken, not kind of, we have taken some internal surveys and just anecdotally, too, like, “What’s working now? Is it different? How are you breaking through?”

I think, number one, what’s been interesting is, and I talk to a lot of agencies that have asked me where are we finding success, the same question you just asked, and most of them out of the gate will say, “Well, I assume probably phone. How’s that working because people are at home. You’re bothering them.”

I mean, as long as you do it with value, the way that you should have always been doing your business, I would say the phone has probably increased in success in terms of people breaking through. So, that’s been one. We’ve always used that. I mean, it sounds old school to some agencies when they think about the phone and with technology, obviously, things … For us, it’s always been you have to use every channel out there in concert with each other and you and I have talked about this before.

You can’t just bang away on LinkedIn or bang away via email, but I would say … So, the first thing we found is phone is still quite valid. Yes, you do have to be, and you always should have been respectful of a lot of people working from home and that have kids. So, what has happened a good deal has been pickups have definitely increased, but it’s also been, “Hey, I got your email,” or whatever it is, “Can’t talk right now. I am interested, though,” and that’s great. There has been more of that, which has been very good. As long as we do that in the right way, there have been more of those chances where quick call, get me back, and we’ve been able to follow up.

LinkedIn has been another one that as long as we’re careful has increased. For me as well, actually, when I’m reaching out to agencies because people are online more, which we generally are, I think what happens is when we get permission, and by permission I mean when we reach out to a prospect through a channel like phone or email, we’ve established some awareness, a click, whatever it is or a brief conversation. That in our mind gives us permission to connect with someone. Typically, they will recognize, not always, but they are thankful, quite frankly, and give us kudos, our salespeople that, “Thank you for not cold selling me when I accepted your connection, and I accepted it because I had seen a few of your emails, and I was curious. I’m interested,” because we didn’t jump down there like it’s happening so much now.

So, I think those two I would point out to agencies, doing it right, not that those are new or weren’t effective before, because email, of course, has still been effective, but I know you can attest, we all listening can attest or those that are, the glut of email that has certainly not abated since this all started. It’s certainly still been effective.

What we aren’t using that has been a good tool right now is physical mail, which has always been one tool that’s been helpful for us to be able to break through in a very uncluttered space, but obviously now with, not every client, but now we’re looking at that in the next two to three, four weeks, “Okay. Where does it makes sense?”

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, as people are starting to go back to the office.

Lee McKnight:

Exactly, maybe or businesses that were essentially where they’re there. So, that’s where we’re seeing it. I would just point out to agencies out there, I mean, it really is altering those touches with value over multiple platforms or channels because I think there’s too much of leaders in firms out there, I’m not trying to knock anyone specifically, but just, “We had this great LinkedIn strategy.” Maybe that’s working very well, but it’s like that email I mentioned earlier of the hundreds of red hot leads. It’s like you’ve got to space it out and alternate in our mind.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. So, are you finding that agencies that are having success knocking on the door, preferably that that prospect is opening the door, are they changing their messaging up? Is it more recession, pandemic-specific or are they having success with the general, “You should be marketing more. We’re a good agency,” message?

Lee McKnight:

Yeah. Again, that’s what I mentioned earlier, and we are most certainly doing it is really looking at it on a week-to-week basis almost where, yes, and six weeks ago, give or take, there was more specific messaging around that or around COVID, this period. I think now even putting COVID in the subject line and I realized we just sent out that report that I included. I was like, “I shouldn’t have done that,” because there’s too much of it, understandably so.

So, I think now it is literally like this week, there’s less of that and more the client that I mentioned to you that that had just come on, but where they are now making it, now we’re looking forward. We know that we’re not out of this, but we are able to help you specifically and effectively in these ways.

Now, it’s a top of the funnel like that when you’re trying to break through, your story has to be very concise. We have 20 seconds, 30 seconds to break through if that, but I think it’s less now about, “We’re all in this together,” and that messaging and more, “We’re here. We’re helpful. We’re effective and here’s why,” or “We specialize,” and give a specialization and have a whole another podcast about that, but to take full effect of that. So, I think we need to start getting away from too specific messaging around it, if that makes sense.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. I think now it’s about next steps rather than … Right? Yeah.

Lee McKnight:

Yeah, at least now, and understanding that we’ve got to look, and three weeks from now, knock on wood, I mean, hopefully it is still that, but understanding that. I thought what was interesting, too, another opportunity that I didn’t mention in terms of in-house, and that was one of the stats that we saw.

Drew McLellan:

Right, right. I wanted to ask you about that. Right.

Lee McKnight:

Yeah, that was interesting, too, because I think the … What was the exact. I don’t know. It’s not maybe important, the exact percentage, but I think it was-

Drew McLellan:

So, while you’re looking for the data, Susan Baier and I do the agency and research series every year. Our 2019 study was all about how do clients decide when they’re going to keep work in-house versus send it out to an agency and what triggers that because finding the in-house agencies has been such a challenge for our clients lately for the last couple of years. So, I will say that I was heartbeat a little bit by this data. I had been saying to agencies that I think one of the silver linings of COVID is going to be that there are fewer robust in-house agencies compete against. So, now, if you will tell us what data you have.

Lee McKnight:

Yes, that’s true. I think it’s interesting. I mean, it was a big number, bigger than I would have thought, where of these marketers, 81% said they had some kind of in-house presence. Now, what we, in retrospect, thinking about, we asked in-house agency or creatives in-house. Now, those are two very different things. I mean, there’s a team versus a person because my wife works for a chemical company here in Cincinnati. She is a one-person team. So, there’s folks like that that I’m sure would be included in this, right?

What we had there was 32% they’ve decreased headcount significantly or somewhat. Now, no one wishes anyone to be furloughed or cut. We’re not going to rejoice because of that, of course, but to your point, we would agree, and we’re even seeing it as we’re reaching out and prospecting. Again, this is some anecdotal, but I’ll have some of our salespeople. So, I’m talking to them during the week. They’re pointing out that, yeah, and they’ve actually literally talked to some of these marketers that have said, “We’re going to need some help.” We handled that in-house, typically, looking like we’re not going to be.

So, it is a silver lining in that sense. I think for these small to mid-sized firms we work with, that will be the most interesting because a lot of them will come up against smaller teams or a person, but they’re never going to be able to do what these folks we’re working with, our clients are going to be able to do for them to a great extent and even less so now. So, that is another silver lining for our clients.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. This has been fascinating. You and I could chat about biz dev for hours I suspect, but I’m always grateful for the content you guys produce, the direction that you give agencies, and certainly that you carved out some time today to be with us. So, thank you for that.

Lee McKnight:

Yeah. Thank you, Drew. I mean, and same back to you. Really appreciate all that you do for just all the content you’re producing for agencies out there. I’m not sure when you’re sleeping, but it’s been great to be back and I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Drew McLellan:

So, if folks want to get in touch with you and learn more about the work that you do, where is the best place for them to head?

Lee McKnight:

Sure. Our site is rswus.com. We’ve got all the resources and content there. That’s probably the best place to go.

Drew McLellan:

It would be foolish of me not to mention that you will be with us in November at Build A Better Agency Summit. So, you and Mark will be onsite. You’ll be there to answer questions. You’re going to be facilitating some round table conversations around biz dev strategies. So, if I don’t see you physically before then, I’m looking forward to sharing a drink with you in November as we celebrate being back together.

Lee McKnight:

Absolutely. If nothing else for that, but we are so excited. I mean, it looks like it’s going to be a really good conference and to be a sponsor and just, yes, to interact with folks, but we’re excited to talk to agencies. I think it’s going to be really fun and good for new business and otherwise for these folks. So, yeah, we’re excited.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. Me, too. I’m looking forward to it. Thanks again for being with us.

Lee McKnight:

Yeah. Thanks, Drew.

Drew McLellan:

All right, guys. This wraps up another episode of Build A Better Agency. As Lee and I were just talking about, just a reminder, we will be gathering in November in Chicago for the rescheduled Build A Better Agency Summit. It’s November 11th to 12th. We do still have some tickets available. It is going to be an amazing compilation of learning, connecting, networking, and celebrating the fact that we are standing on our two feet, that we survived this, we thrived through it, and that we are going to kick 2021 to the curb in a big bad way. So, I hope you join us, and I’m looking forward to being with all of you physically in the same place to celebrate. So, please join us.

All right. Big shout out to our friends at White Label IQ. As you know, the presenting sponsor of the podcast, they do, White Label PPC development and design for agencies, and they have a special deal for you at whitelabeliq.com/ami. So, many thanks to them.

As always, I will be back next week with another guest to get you thinking a little differently about your business. In the meantime, always [inaudible 00:56:23] So, thanks for listening, and I will be with you next week. Talk to you soon.

That’s a wrap for this week’s episode of Build A Better Agency. Visit agencymanagementinstitute.com to check out our workshops, coaching packages, and all the other ways we serve agencies just like yours. Thanks for listening.