Burn the Old Playbook and Find Your Agency Tilt with Joe Pulizzi

Danyel McLellan [00:00:01]:
It doesn’t matter what kind of agency you run, traditional digital media, buying, web dev, PR or brand, whatever your focus, you still need to run a profitable business. The Build a Better Agency podcast, presented by White Label iq, will expose you to the best practices that drive growth, client and employee retention, and profitability. Bringing his 25 plus years of experience as both an agency owner and agency consultant, please welcome your host, Drew McClell. Drew McLellan.

Drew McLellan [00:00:37]:
Hey everybody. Drew McLellan here with another episode of Build a Better Agency. Super excited to be back with you again this week. And our guest this week is one of my favorite human beings. He’s been on the show a couple times before and was recently one of the keynote speakers at Build a Better Agency Summit. And I just find him to be one of the most generous, smartest people I know. Back in the day when I was trying to decide if I was going to launch the summit, so this was probably a decade ago, I reached out to him and he spent a lot of time with me, helping me think through the pros and the cons of holding a conference and some of the risks. And boy, he knew it better than anybody because by then his Content Marketing World conference was one of the countries, if not the world’s most popular and most successful events. And he didn’t have to sit down with me and be as generous as he was. But that’s just really who Joe Pulizzi is. He’s just a generous guy. He also is a prolific creator of content that all of us need to be consuming on a regular basis. So if you’re not a subscriber to his newsletter every week, you need to be. But he has a brand new book out called Burn the Playbook, and that was sort of the theme of his keynote presentation at the summit as well. So really great stuff. And I want to talk to him today about really how we need to be thinking differently about going to market in this moment of time when everything is changing. And so I know you’re going to learn a lot from him. But before I join, have him join me on the mic. I want to make sure I say thank you to our friends at White Label iq. As you know, they are the presenting sponsor of this podcast, have been for a long time also the presenting sponsor of the Build a Better Agency Summit. So we’re super grateful to them. But one of the things that I think makes White Label IQ really different is the way that they structure how agencies can work with them. So, you know, if you have a few little jobs piling up, you can kind of tap them ad hoc. If you want the protection of a fixed price to keep your margin safe, they’ll do that too. And if you’re at the point where you need a full time person embedded in your organization, they’ve got FTE programs that will bring you continuity and deeper integration. Many of you know them as a web dev shop, but really what they do for agencies, they do design, they do development, they do paid media, and they’re doing a lot of AI integrations and automations for agencies today, both for agencies themselves and their partners. What’s cool about white label is they understand how the agency business really works because they are an agency and they’ve designed their services to show up however you need them. And that’s the kind of flexibility that they offer their clients. And it’s just kind of the way they think. It’s really all about how can I be most helpful to our agency clients, which I love about them? So if you wanna learn more about them or find out about the special discount that they have for you as a podcast member and listener, head over to whitelabeliq.com ami all right. Okay. Without further ado, I wanna get to our conversation with Joe because I have lots of questions to ask him about his book and sort of how he’s thinking about World Today. And I know that you are going to learn a lot from this hour and I have no doubt that every one of you is going to start doing one or two things differently because of what Joe has to say. So let’s welcome him back to the show.

Drew McLellan [00:04:07]:
Joe, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for coming back, Drew.

Joe Pulizzi [00:04:10]:
It’s always a pleasure to talk to you. Thanks for having me.

Drew McLellan [00:04:14]:
So not that long ago you were on the summit stage giving a keynote, talking about your latest book and sort of how agencies need to reframe the way they are approaching their own marketing, their own client acquisition. And one of the things you talked about was you talk a lot about the old playbook and how it was kind of contained and really wasn’t. One of the phrases you use is the old playbook was not built for your freedom. So let’s talk a little bit about that. In light of its 2026 feels like everything’s changing every day. Agency owners are really thinking about how they have to reinvent what they do, who they do it for, how they do it. So talk a little bit about sort of the impetus of the book and how you think the playbook has to change for agency owners and leaders.

Joe Pulizzi [00:05:07]:
Well, where do you start with that? I could go in a bunch of different directions. I think the first thing, and obviously I talked with a lot of the people in the audience about this. There’s a lot of fear right now because we really don’t know where things are going. And so what I tried to build, at least on stage and talking in individual conversations, was we have to have a sense of urgency right now. I really do believe. I believe. I mean, I’ve talked for years about gatekeepers where social media is a gatekeeper or all this other technology is a gatekeeper, and we put our own minds and thoughts in our way to get things and set. So we have the greatest gatekeeper of all time that’s coming in our way, and that’s AI. Whether you want to say it’s findability for our businesses, whether it’s the content that we create, we have no idea how that’s going to shake out. But I do believe we have a couple years before it gets really crazy. Like, if you said, Joe, what’s the future of AI and content going to be? Maybe I’ve got a good idea for 12 to 18 months beyond that. That’s why when I talked in the on stage about sort of the traditional content marketing model where, oh, let’s create some content, let’s do it consistently over a period of time, we’ll build an audience and then that audience will know, like, and trust us. And then you, as an agency, you can sell all your stuff to them. Well, I don’t, I don’t know if that’s gonna work like it did in the past. I mean, 10 years ago. I’m all in. I’m like, that’s gonna be great. What do you wanna do? You wanna do a podcast? You wanna do newsletter? How do you position yourself differently? You know, we call that your tilt. Like, what is the thing that makes you different? How do we communicate in all the things that we do as an agency to our audience that way? It’s like, well, we’ve got this big shiny bulb of technology in front of us now that I don’t know if we can break through. And if you want to chase the algorithm, go ahead and chase the algorithm. So you’re not, you’re not going to have much luck with it. So. So really what I wanted to tell agency owners is you have an opportunity right now to lean into your weirdness. Like, really what makes you tick? And this is where, you know, you talk about this all the time. Like, who’s your target audience? How do you really specify your products and services to that particular audience go more niche than broad. I mean, you talk. I mean, this is just basic business 101 stuff. But now is the time where we can’t go broad. Like, you really have to be somebody’s favorite in order to break through. Because AI, at least now that we know that that’s what they’re looking for, it’s like, okay, somebody’s looking for an agency in the Pacific Northwest that focuses on food and small businesses, these types of products. And I’ll tell you what, if, if that, if you serve that audience, but that you’re not somebody’s favorite in that area, AI is not going to show you. Your audience isn’t going to find you. The content you’re creating is never going to get to them. So, long story short, and I’m rambling, but what I would say is, and what I wanted to tell everybody in the audience was, what do you think makes you special? Why are you in this in the first place? Like, what is your core mission, not only in life, but as an agency? Like, really, some of these are deep questions that we have to get to because your answers to those questions will determine if you have a business in five years, not just how profitable you’re going to be or how much revenue, like, are you even going to be around. And that’s a tough question to answer.

Drew McLellan [00:08:44]:
I think it’s a difficult thing to look in the mirror and acknowledge that you are at the risk of being obsolete if you don’t sort of redefine who you are. So I love the concept of tilt, and you’ve written about it in multiple places and multiple books. But, you know, your idea of tilt, my interpretation of that is it’s sort of the intersection of obsession, expertise and specific audience. And we have a lot of agencies who are still saying, basically, when I say, tell me about your agency, what they say is, well, we’re a full service integrated marketing agency that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What do you say to those agencies that still are holding that broad, that broad perspective, thinking that they’re leaving money on the table if they narrow down and they do figure out what. What is that intersection between obsession, expertise and a specific audience?

Joe Pulizzi [00:09:39]:
That’s such a great point. But you gotta remember, and what I try to tell them is the way that you market is different than the projects you can take. Like, just because you market a certain. Yeah. Even though you market toward some certain people, doesn’t mean if you get this beautiful client that finds you somewhere that you can’t take that business. And some people think, oh, I only have to focus on this. What I’m just saying is, what do you tell the world? I talked to somebody the other day about it. We were talking about the title of their book. And I don’t want to get into specifics, but it was just a basic B2B title. And I said, if you put that title and you submitted to speak at an event, like your event, let’s say Drew, I said, would anybody, like, is it at all interesting? Like, could you. You have to create the title that stands out so much to the people that will be in that audience that they have to pick you. So that’s what I’m talking to agencies about. Like, what’s that thing? And I think, what to your point? Like, a lot of people, like, oh, if I go too far in this direction, I might not get the other thing. Or they might think that I’m weird or whatever. Well, folks, now’s not the time to play safe. Like, now is the time to really lean into the craziness and the weirdness. Like at the event I talked about. Okay, let’s. You have people that have expertise in your agency. They’re probably not creating a lot of content for your agency, but they have really amazing expertise and they’re really good with people on doing this. Or they’re really good project managers, or they’re really good designers or whatever they are, but you’re keeping them just on client work. What if. I know this is crazy, but what if you actually let them communicate with your customers on a regular basis about something that they’re passionate about? And that’s where I think is the big unlock for the next two years is don’t just let your communications come from your. The agency name that you have or your email or your podcast. It’s like, first of all, you’re a human. Let’s put the human’s name there. And then when we go down, like, what makes them weird, let’s show the world that. Because those are the ones that I think are really getting the project. Those are the ones. When you get somebody to sign on the dotted line as an agency, you will have internal champions fighting for you to keep you, because you’re more than just, oh, that’s my agency. That’s my full service integrated agency, which nobody cares about. They care about Julie or John or Barbara or whatever, and working with them because, oh, they care about my business. How do I know? Oh, because I listen to their podcast every week and it’s not the CEO, it’s the project manager. Oh, that’s. That’s crazy. Or I’m. Or I boy get this newsletter. And his newsletter’s just not coming from an agency. It’s. This is, like, really important to my life. Like, I need to, if I, if they don’t send that, I miss it. Like, that’s the type of marketing we want to create. So I know it’s kind of overwhelming for a lot of agencies where we’re taught, okay, we need to fit into this box well, we got to get rid of all the lines on the box. Like, we have to go all completely outside the box at this point. And I think that’s where the opportunity is if we’re courageous enough to take it.

Drew McLellan [00:12:47]:
Yeah, I think your point is a good one. I often say to agencies that are resistant to niching, look, this is about how you talk about yourself to the world and you introduce yourself to the world. But if somebody walks through your door with a bag of money that doesn’t fit that niche and you can actually service them, well, great, take the bag of money. It’s not about saying no. It’s about being relevant and important. And I often think, and I’m. And I know you do too. When I hit, when I get ready to hit send on, on our newsletter, I often think, if I didn’t write this week, would anybody notice? Would they miss it? Right? Would they be like, hey, what happened? And I think if, if that’s our goal, then you automatically elevate the quality and the value of, of what you said.

Joe Pulizzi [00:13:39]:
It’s getting used to the fact that the most important pieces of communication that you can deliver as an agency happen in the in between times. It’s not on the project. You’re going to communicate with your client on the project. We all do that. Necessary communication. But it’s the stuff that they get midweek that helps them think about a thing that they haven’t been thinking about that changes their perspective. And that’s the stuff that then they say, boy, yeah, I know them, but now, boy, I really like them. And now I’m beginning to trust them. Because this all gets. Everything that we’re saying really gets down to trust. That’s the thing. That’s the moat. That’s when. When everybody’s looking at, okay, I don’t know if that video is true. I don’t know if that person wrote that thing. Was it AI or not?

Drew McLellan [00:14:24]:
Videos are real human beings.

Joe Pulizzi [00:14:26]:
That’s right. That’s right. But I know, like, with, with your podcast and your newsletter. With my newsletter. Like, they know people who subscribe to that, These crazy people, they know it’s coming from me and they know that I wouldn’t let a word go out unless I believe it. That’s a, that’s a huge thing. And if you can get that as an agency, you won’t have to worry about re. Upping that client. They, they will. They’re like. Because you’re delivering something that they don’t get from everyone. And that’s. It’s the thing that I’ve tried to talk to agencies about when we were there. I’m like, some of this is so easy because most of these agencies don’t even think about this. Look at your competitor’s newsletter if they have a podcast or their webinars or their speaking engagements. Like, look at, just do a basic audit of another agency that you think is a competitor and you’ll say, this is terrible. Like, it’s not that hard to be different. You just have to be a little bit different. You have to understand the needs and pain points of your audience and you have to do it consistently. If you do that, we’ve got a fighting chance to make this thing go.

Drew McLellan [00:15:29]:
But I think it’s about being to your point, it’s about being human. I think that’s the element of trust right now. So you look at elements trust barometer, you look at the agency edge research. We just came out with. The word trust shows up so often. People are so hungry to trust and so right now, distrustful of everything that I think part of that idea of the tilt of that being a little weird is being yourself. So, you know when, when you write a newsletter and you talk about Cleveland or you talk about the Browns, or you talk about your wife, Pam, everybody’s like, oh, Joe actually wrote that. That, that’s about Joe. It’s. And yes, you then quickly move on to whatever the lesson of the day is or the thought of the day. But you, you’ve kind of encapsulated it in the humanity of who you are as a human and who you are as an advisor. And I think that’s the part that a lot of agency owners are loathe to do. They want to sound corporate and official and all of that. And, and to your point, people want, I need to know like, and trust you. And I can’t know like and trust an institution. I know like and trust people inside the institution. So as agency owners are looking to sort of stress test this idea of the tilt you talk about that a tilt is often a recombination of existing ingredients. So it’s not about reinventing themselves. So are there some. Are there some examples that you can think of where agencies or creators that you work with have sort of taken some element that is true about them and already exists and kind of twisted it to be that new advantage or that new sort of touch point that makes people lean in and feel like they know them?

Joe Pulizzi [00:17:22]:
Yeah, I mean, like, just in life, I always use the music example. Like, the next thing that you hear musically is always a recombination of, oh, it’s jazz or jazz and funk or are like, what it. What is pop? It’s a. You know, it’s a little bit. A little bit rock and roll, or let’s say blues and country. Oh, how’s the guitar? A little bit different than the. It’s all the same instruments.

Drew McLellan [00:17:47]:
Right.

Joe Pulizzi [00:17:48]:
It’s just. We’re recombining it in a different way. So if you go and you’re like, okay, what are the things that we’re really good at as an agency? And please don’t list that you’re a full service.

Drew McLellan [00:17:59]:
Integrated marketing.

Joe Pulizzi [00:18:00]:
Integrated.

Drew McLellan [00:18:00]:
Yeah.

Joe Pulizzi [00:18:01]:
It’s like, please don’t do that. It’s like, you know, even more than we always hit our deadlines. It’s like, first of all, it’s like, maybe you’re in a location that’s advantageous. Maybe you have some amazing expertise as part of the human beings in your organization that a lot of people just don’t have. Maybe you’ve done a body of work that’s just created so many new things that you can do as an organization. You just never expected it. Or maybe you have some crazy people in the organization have gone down the rabbit hole with Claude or OpenAI or Gemini, where you’ve got, oh, I know how to create agents or whatever. And you put all these things and say, okay, here’s. Here’s all this expertise that you have. And then as a. As an agency owner, I always like to add on the other side, what are you passionate about? Like, what do you love? Because you have a choice. You don’t have to work on things you don’t like. Life is too short. We’re all human beings. Yeah, I know you got to make money, but let’s. While we’re at it, while we’re slogging along here in life, why don’t we do stuff that we’re passionate about and we love? So what do you love to work on? Do you do you love to work on the tech technology part. Do you love to. I know some agency. I mean, I came from the print background, as you know. I have. There’s some custom content agencies that just love doing print magazines. They’re good at it. They love it. They have the relationships and they lean into that, and that’s what they do. And you know what? There’s still plenty of work out there for that, even though you think it might be dead. Hey, it’s not dead, folks. So what do you love to do? And you sort of look at those and like, okay, what. What does that mean? Where do we. And then you come out on the other end with some kind of mission statement. Oh, we focus on these types of projects and maybe it’s toward a mission. When I used to work. I know you used to work with Doug Kessler over at Velocity Partners, who I love. And he always said, you know, we will not work with boring B2B companies. We just won’t. We want to work with challenger brands, B2B companies that are really quirky. Because we’re quirky. Because if we go into a boring B2B company, they’re going to say, well, you have to be more corporate. Which.

Drew McLellan [00:20:09]:
Right. We’re going to freak them out.

Joe Pulizzi [00:20:11]:
Yeah. So we’re going to be. We’re going to be a little nuts. And you know what? If you go in there saying that and they know that you might have an advantage at it. So you write all these things and you sit with it with you and your team, like, okay, here’s what. And are we. And question yourself challenge. Are you really good at that? Is that something that you could actually build a business on? Is it how you communicate? Just to ask yourself all those types of questions? So. And I don’t think we do that enough. I think that when you build, Start a business agency or not, you have your strategic plan put together and you say, this is what we stand for. This is what we do. Kind of like when people build a buyer Persona and then they take it and they shove it in a drawer and they don’t look at it again. What I want an agency to do is you figure out what that recombination is. All the stuff that already exists, you put it together into something beautiful and original and you paste it. And if you have. If you have an office or everybody’s from a home office, have them print it out and put it in front of them. This is what we stand for. This is the type of business that we take. This is the type of business that we don’t take. That’s important to know where your line is. Like, what don’t you want put all those things together and you, that, by the way, that can change. Just like your tilt can change. Everything can change. But I want the, the people in your organization to know that and live that, say, okay, be proud of that. This is the type of work we do. Yeah, we’re a little quirky. Yeah, we, we take projects that other people won’t build. Even some of these multimillion dollar projects, we might say no to those things because we have these types of standards. I want your people to know that. I want your people to sort of stand on that line and defend that. And I don’t think enough small business owners do that. They don’t communicate the overall mission of the organization with their employees. And by the way, when you do that, then it’s a lot easier for them to communicate because they know what the brand stands for. Then they can get on the podcast, they can do the newsletter, they can do all those things. And you don’t have to be nervous as an agency owner to say, well, they might not get that right. Of course they’re going to get that right. You talked about it in a meeting. You talk about it every time you get together. They have it sitting in front of them every time they know what they stand for.

Drew McLellan [00:22:23]:
Well, and I think two things. One, you also have to show that way. You have to show up however you want to be perceived externally. You have to show up that way internally. You know, you can’t be one type of person or one type of brand or one type of service delivery model externally, and then treat your own team and your own company differently. And I often think about, you know, for many agency owners, when I say to them, tell me about your new business program. What they talk about are referrals, which are great, don’t get me wrong, they’re lovely. But a, you have no control over them. But what I say to them back is going to give the perfect referral. If I were going to say a sentence or two about your agency, that would nail it and make somebody go, I, I need to meet that person. What would the sentence be? Because it wouldn’t be, they’re a full service integrated marketing agency. It would be about this tilt. It would be about your personality. It would be about the experience of working with you. And I think until your team understands that they can’t manifest it every day, they can’t deliver it every day.

Joe Pulizzi [00:23:25]:
Where I think A lot of companies fall down on this internal part which is so critical. Don Schultz always said the most important communications is your internal communications before you ever communicate with your customers. I think a lot of us lose that. So how are you communing? We talked about some things as you could do, but I don’t know how big your organization is. But do you have your own newsletter to your own team or do you get on a call every week? Are you on what, whatever that thing is so that you. I mean, because just like content marketing can work for an external audience, it certainly will work for an internal audience. So what’s the, as an owner, are you sending out the four bullet points this week and say, here’s the things that I’m thinking, here’s what we got to work on this week, here’s what we’re doing and really lead. That’s what I think leadership is 99% communication. I mean, and I don’t think a lot of us are doing that and it doesn’t take that much. So we can do that.

Drew McLellan [00:24:18]:
That’s right. I agree. All right, I want to take a quick break, but when we come back, one of the things that you talk about in the book is this idea of how you should surround yourself with what you kind of call kind of a board of life. So some roles that we need to be as, as agency owners and leaders that we need to surround ourselves with. So let’s take a quick break and then come back and talk a little bit about what that looks like.

Drew McLellan [00:24:42]:
I promise I’ll let you get right back to the show, but before I do, let’s be honest with each other. Most agencies lose deals not because they’re bad at the work, but because their proposals missed the mark. They weren’t client centric enough, they weren’t specific enough, they weren’t strategic enough. That’s why we created the Getting It Right Proposals that Win workshop. It is a live, in person, hands on workshop built specifically for agency owners who want to turn all the parts and pieces of written proposals to bios case studies, your website, RFP responses, proposals themselves into real competitive advantages. This workshop is led by Robin and Steve Bowler from Mercer Island Group. And in the workshop you’re going to learn the art and the science of prospect centric proposals, uncovering true business issues, structuring a compelling story and using the five elements that consistently lift win rates. You’re going to see examples of good, the bad and the ugly so you can steal from them and improve the work that you do. So if you’re tired of pouring hours into proposals that go nowhere, you need to join us for this workshop and start submitting proposals that actually close business. The workshop is September 28th and 29th in Denver, and you can register at the Agency Management Institute website.

Drew McLellan [00:26:05]:
All right, we are back with Joe Polizzi, and we are talking about In Framework, his latest book, but also just some concepts around. We’re in this unique, pivotal moment, I think, for every business, but certainly for our business. And so we’re talking about, in this world, in this moment, how do we show up as A, being findable, but B, being the trusted human resource that clients are looking for. And so, Joe, before the break, I was saying one of the concepts in the book that I loved was this idea of, you know, and it’s a twist on an old idea. You are the five people you hang out with most, right? Like, the people you surround yourself with have great influence over who you are and how you show up. So talk a little bit about how you unpack that concept in the book.

Joe Pulizzi [00:26:54]:
I think that the. We don’t put enough time into choosing who we spend time with. We really are who we hang out with, but from a business standpoint. And I learned this when I was first at Penton. I mean, Pet Media was the largest independent media company in its day, and I was a young executive just trying to find my way. And I had a mentor that I worked with, and he would call me on things. He was at a point where he had 30 years of experience, and he would challenge me. And I had a conversation with him one time just about some of the stuff we talk about in the book. But he said, I’m here to make sure that you know where you’re going in the future. And then. And, like, I asked him to be my mentor, too. Like, I. And we had regular meetings and we set these things up. And he said. He said, but honestly, who are your other mentors? And I said, I don’t know what you’re talking about. I got you. Like, what. What do I got to get a whole group team together? He says, yeah, absolutely. Like. Like, I’m. I’m going to challenge you on literally everything. And, you know, I’m doing it from a place of love and support, and I’m not doing it because I’m hard on you, even though it might come off that way. He said, but you need people in your camp that absolutely love you and will support you. So who are those people? And I’m like, okay, I guess my family. I Was like, you guess, spend some time. Who are the people that you really need around you that’s going to lift you up no matter what? Okay. Okay, then who are the people that are in the trenches with you now? Like, side by side? Like what? Like you’re going through the same problems. Do you have one or two of those people? I’m like, no, I don’t have it. So anyways, to get, to get the point, like, as you’re going. So that’s, that’s sort of how I came. And you’re right, this is not new information, but you have to strategically set these people up in. As part of your daily, weekly, monthly routine so that you can be the person you ultimately want to be and walk that path. So that’s kind of where I’m, I’m trying to, to challenge agency owners or people in my audience to say, if you’re not hanging around with people that are going to. You got one or two that are going to lift you up. Do you have some that are in the trenches with you? Are you, Are you talking to some people that they’re one step above where you’re at? Okay, let’s meet with those people on a regular basis. And then you got the person that’s absolutely been there and done that and wants to instill that advice and have those. And you list those four or five or six people, and you make sure regularly that you set up some kind of meeting with those people. How do you. And by the way, this is not. It’s not hard or easy. It’s just a thing that you have to do. It’s almost like somebody says, oh, is it. Is it difficult to send a newsletter out every. I mean, the, the difficult. It’s not. But then when you look at it, say, well, I’ve. I’ve done a newsletter every Friday for the last seven years.

Drew McLellan [00:29:58]:
Right.

Joe Pulizzi [00:29:59]:
It’s just that week I had to set that and do that. Like you say, oh, I have to do the podcast. I get. I get to do the podcast. So I guess the concern is, especially when a lot of us are working in a home office environment or we’re not around as much as many people, or there’s so many distractions we get in the social media. I talk about that a lot in the book, like, don’t let the feed distract you from life.

Drew McLellan [00:30:26]:
Right, Right.

Joe Pulizzi [00:30:27]:
And the things that you want to do. So these humans that you. So if you decide that you’re going to hang out with four or five or six human beings, you can do it strategically, and it’s gonna help you beyond measure. But I don’t know if people do it strategically. I think a lot of people just fall into it. Oh, okay. That’s the person I report to. That’s sort of gonna be my mentor. No, no. And by the way, don’t be afraid to really step out of your lane to find somebody. Like, I talked about Don Schultz. And for those people that don’t know about Don Schultz, he’s the father of integrated marketing communications. I wrote a great book, many great books, but one is imc, if you ever pick it up. So if you’re ever in integrated marketing, you should know who Don Schultz is. And my one mentor at Penton Said said, you know who. Who do you really want as sort of that ultimate mentor? And I said, don Schultz. But I don’t know him. Whatever he says, why don’t you reach out to him? It’s like, that’s. That’s. I don’t even know. Like, why would I even do that? He’s. He’s one of the greatest teachers in the world on this subject. Why would he care? It’s like, well, how do you. How do you know you didn’t reach out? It took me about three or four months, and I got. And I asked him. I got him out to dinner in Chicago. I actually flew to Chicago just to meet with him from Cleveland so I could sit down with dinner. I took him to Gibson’s. It was lovely. And from that point on, we had a great friendship, and he was a critical person in my life. But you don’t know unless you do it.

Danyel McLellan [00:31:53]:
So.

Joe Pulizzi [00:31:53]:
Yeah, I thought it was crazy, too, when I started thinking about this. But strategically, you can make it happen.

Drew McLellan [00:31:59]:
I think that.

Drew McLellan [00:31:59]:
I think the point that your book makes this, the twist, if you will, on the general. I think when we hear the statement, you are the subtotal of the five people you spend the most time with, we immediately think, well, the people that I just naturally spend time with, you know, it’s my. It’s my family, it’s my close friends, whatever. Whatever it is, my coworkers. But your point is. And I think this is the critical point for people to hear, is you can actually build that board and that you have to sort of assign roles to each of those people and then be intentional. And I think this is the part that probably a lot of people sort of skip past be intentional about those interactions so that both you and they. An understanding of the expectations of what you’re asking of them and what you’re offering them because it’s a mutual relationship. I think that’s the key, is that you’re actually constructing something with intention and with guardrails and guidelines of here’s how this is going to work as opposed to just, you know, I, I play golf with my next door neighbor every week, and so he’s one of my five. It is about the intentionality of it, I think.

Joe Pulizzi [00:33:11]:
No, thank you for the clarification too, because, yeah, this is not like I would separate your friendships in a lot of ways from, from what we’re trying to do here. This is more of your career, life, whatever. But also the important thing is you have the power to stop interactions with people that are bringing you down. And that might be friendships that might be. And, and that’s a tough one. And this is where you, you really should like, list. Like, where do I, it’s almost like when somebody doesn’t realize how much time they have during a day. I said, well, do a time audit, like go through and, and people don’t realize, oh my God, I’m spending six hours on social media. I like, where, where did that come from? You don’t realize it right? Where you lose time, where you’re leaking energy. Well, we leak energy in our relationships too. Because if you’re around somebody that’s not lifting you up, that is hurting you in multiple ways that you can’t even comprehend. So you might have to say, well, I’m hanging out with Bob here and I don’t, I don’t really like myself around Bob. Or I’m not taking the next step of where I want to be. Like, who, where, where do you want to be? Where do you want to be in life? Where. And then this is all, you know, goes down to a whole other thing we talk about in the book. Like, what are your goals? Like, where, you know, what are your, what are your financial goals, your spiritual goals, your career goals? You know, those types of things that a lot of people may not look at and write down and review on a regular basis, which I’m a big proponent of. You do the same thing with the people in your life. So from a professional standpoint to your, to your, the clarification you made is, okay, this is the person, this person is going to be my, I want them to be my mentor. I’m going to communicate that with them. I’m going to set up a regular schedule. It’s on me to make that happen so that I get together and then these are the goals I have for that great. And then also here’s the people in my life that I don’t really know what to do with right now. Like, where do, where do I. We all have them. Right. It’s like, oh, I’ve known them for 15 years and we do this and whatever. But this is not good. This is holding me back from the person that I want to be.

Drew McLellan [00:35:24]:
Yeah.

Drew McLellan [00:35:25]:
And I think the other part of

Drew McLellan [00:35:26]:
that is I think when we say mentor, we automatically think someone more experienced, older, whatever. But I think you can also surround yourself with people who, like you said before, are kind of in the trenches with you and are good thinking partners or challenge your thinking. They don’t have to all be wise old men and women. It’s nice to have some of those in the mix as well. But it can certainly be your own peers or people who are sort of in the same part of the journey as you.

Joe Pulizzi [00:35:54]:
Well, this is where like going to your event is so critical. Right. Because you have mixed groups set up where people don’t necessarily compete with each other, that they can communicate. And I mean, you have to. When I first started this is years ago, I used to do social media for H vac companies and, and I didn’t even know what a mixed group was at that point. So this is like in dawn of social media, 0506 07, before we got into Twitter and Facebook and whatever. And I was invited into these mixed groups and they basically are owner operators from all different parts of the country that they. And every they, they like throw down their financial statements.

Drew McLellan [00:36:35]:
Yeah. Like we do in our peer groups.

Joe Pulizzi [00:36:37]:
I’m like, the transparency was just. They were shockingly vulnerable and it was just refreshing to, to have that. So if you like, if you are an agency owner and you don’t have that, you absolutely are missing something because you, you. I saw miracles work and those sexual people, you’re doing it that way and you found out that and you got that response and the shock and everybody had their own little revelation in those meetings and it was fantastic. So those are the types of things that you can orchestrate. But that’s where in person meetings are great. And whether you do them formally like you do in your groups, or you just go to some meeting and you sit next to somebody who’s in the same session as you and you get to talking to them, that’s where it’s. Those things happen in real life and are harder to orchestrate online. So we have to get outside a little bit.

Drew McLellan [00:37:37]:
What I love about sort of watching that unfold in real time is back to the very first part of our conversation. When everyone’s laying their financials down on the table and looking at them, there’s no blowing smoke up each other’s skirt. Like, there’s immediate intimacy and trust because you’re sharing things that you don’t talk to anybody about. And so you create that relationship and that trust and that, you know, that gets me thinking about. You have always been a huge proponent of community, about building a community around you, about participating in communities. And again, whether it’s small, like a mastermind or a client community or a peer group. But in the book you talk a lot about the idea of sort of surrounding yourself again, letting your weirdness or your uniqueness gather a community around you. And you’ve seen a lot of communities. So if an agency owner is thinking about that they need to build a community or participate in a community, what are the mistakes you’ve seen smart, good intentioned leaders make when they either build or enter into a community?

Joe Pulizzi [00:38:46]:
So the, I just wrote about the first part, this whole building community thing. And that’s the problem. When you have an agency owner that says, I want to build a community, well, that they’ve already made a mistake. You don’t build a community. Community happens. Like Apple, you know, Apple’s like, they might say, oh, I’m going to build this community. That community happened. You know, that community naturally happened because of some of the things. So my recommendation is if you really want to say, look, I want to build a community out of this audience or this customer base that happens with your communication first, like, you have to send out like. And I’ve been blessed to be part of a few communities. So if we think back on Content Marketing Institute, that community was created because we were putting out regular communication about really critical information to their jobs on a regular basis. And then from that point we are like, okay, well, who wants to take that? So that we did that over a long period of time, years. I’m not saying it can’t be less time, but I’m just saying what we did. So you put out regular weekly newsletters, monthly webinars. Robert and I had the podcast. We were doing, we were doing all sorts of consistent communication. And then we put out who wants to take their next steps in this thing? And then, then those people would come together and they would start sort of building their own community as part of the events. And we’d be, we would hold the event like we would hold Content Marketing World, but we didn’t create the community, that community created themselves because they all had the same pain points and needs. And we were all in that one spot together. So that’s where I think a lot of people make mistakes. Like, I’m going to build a community. I’m going to build a membership site. I’m going to do it on circle, and we’re going to. Whatever. I’m like, please don’t. Like, please don’t do that. Like, let’s figure out first, like, okay, well, what are you trying to communicate? You might think that’s what you’re going to do, and it may or may not happen because you don’t know. You don’t know once you put out that communication, what. That. What a group of people are going to do. So that’s kind of what I would say is, please figure out. You got to have good ground cover first. And that’s all about how you communicate. And again, Shoemaker Shoes. I get it. Agency people are like, publishing people are like marketing people. Like, we’re the worst to our own. Like, we just don’t do. We just don’t do that. Like, we do a great job for our clients. I could do the best newsletter, we could do the best podcast, we could do the best overall communication strategy. But if you want to do it, do it as part of our own marketing. Not so good. This is where we’ve. We’ve got to. We’ve got to switch that. Your content, your information, your consistency that comes out of your agency has to be as good as what you do for your clients. And if it’s not, I think you got a problem. I’m concerned about your survival over the next two to three years.

Drew McLellan [00:41:43]:
Agreed. One of the things I think is interesting about community is people will say to me, like, at the summit or something else, and go, why? You’ve really built amazing community. And my response is, we created the gathering place. That’s what we did. But the community has a life of its own that I have no control over, good or bad. Like, they’re. They’re going to move as a group to what matters to them. And so it’s important that we at ami, for example, keep feeding them things that are important to them. But. But they do. For example, I’m astonished at the summit at how generous everybody is with everything that they know. I didn’t create that. They created that because they get value. When, when you and I sit together at lunch and you go, oh, I’m struggling with this thing, and I go, oh, I’ve got a template I can send you that, blah, blah, blah. You benefit from that, which then makes you. At the next breakfast, when someone’s sharing something they have, you’re like, oh, I benefited from that. Now I can be generous in return. That’s all. That’s all created to itself.

Joe Pulizzi [00:42:46]:
So what you said is critically important because I’ve seen you do this. You’re so transparent and so giving. That feeds into, oh, this is a community that’s transparent and giving. So the advice would be, okay, you’re an agency owner and you think that you need a community. Okay, maybe you. Maybe you do, maybe you don’t. Whatever. So if you want to build that, you need to be completely transparent and honest in all the things that you do. And that’s where it gets to the weirdness, too. That’s like, oh, well, like, there’s a lot of agency owners that don’t communicate this way. Like, I don’t see a lot of. You probably see it more. You probably have the examples. I don’t. But are you really, like, getting down to some of these soul grappling issues? And are you communicating with them? Like. Like, how are you dealing with AI in your organization? You should be talking. I am sc. Scared as hell. Like, I am. Like, I. I’m really, like, I don’t know. Like, we. We don’t know where we’re gonna be into. Like, that’s. That’s what your customers want to hear because they. They are too.

Drew McLellan [00:43:56]:
Right?

Joe Pulizzi [00:43:56]:
So don’t be like, we have automated 10 parts about this process, and we’ve integrated all. We’ve integrated Claude and Gemini into this part. Whatever. Fine, fine. Those are. Those are feature, feature, feature. Nobody cares, right? What. Let’s get down to the most important things. Say, man, I don’t know about you. Like, wouldn’t that be a great newsletter? I mean, you do your podcast like this so people know you. People listening to this already know that you do that. I don’t know if a lot of your audience are doing that for themselves and for their business, for their audience. That’s the. That’s the opportunity. And by the way, we talked about a lot of things in this podcast. The things you could do. That’s probably the easiest thing that you could do is just start talking like a human being. Talking. Like, you and I are just talking where it’s. Man, this is a tough time. I mean, I haven’t. Are you having a tough time? I’m certainly having a tough time. Here’s the things I’m struggling with. Here’s the Questions. Are you struggling with these questions too? That’s how I try to do my newsletter. And then I start getting responses. And that’s the best thing is which if I’m measuring my newsletter, it’s the amount of emails I get back saying, oh my God, Joe, this one just really hit me hard. I’m dealing with the same thing you’re dealing with. And you know what, we’ve just created a bond. I never heard from that person before, but I know that I’m going to be. I’m going to see that person again. We’re going to probably have a friendship in the future. It’s going to lead to all sorts of wonderful things, if not just supporting that person. So it’s magic that can happen. So I said that transparency that you created, that I’ve tried to do is so critical.

Drew McLellan [00:45:30]:
Well, and again, it boils right back down to trust. Right when you’re human and when you’re vulnerable and when you’re transparent, I know you’re real. And to me, real and trust are so linked. Like I can’t trust something or someone that I’m not sure it’s real. And so I think that’s sort of the underlying essence. So you were just saying, hey, here’s something you can do. This is a critical thing you can do. So in your book, you kind of end the book with a 21 day challenge. So if we were going to sort of adapt that idea for agency owners based on this conversation, what would be a couple things that you would say to agency owners? Everybody listening, here’s what you need to kind of, here’s a seven day build what matters for your agency challenge look like, what are a handful of things that they could do in the next seven days that would move them in a direction that you think would ultimately serve them and their clients well in this crazy moment that we’re in, boy,

Joe Pulizzi [00:46:31]:
there’s so many things. I think now is really the time to figure out the why, you know, why are you in this business? Why are you doing what you’re doing? Like, and talk about the things where we’re really looking at, what is that differentiation that we have that you want to have and spend some time and set a date to it and talk to your customers, do some surveys, figure all this stuff out and we talk about some of it in the book and how we can do that. So that I think that I would spend some time so that when somebody asks you what do you do? You don’t have the answer. We’re a Strategic integrated marketing communications firm that does business with blah, blah, blah, and everybody’s already fallen asleep. Like, what’s the, what’s the thing that, that if you said it, you would, somebody would say, oh, you should write a book on that. Or is that your newsletter on that? Like, I would probably do that. So that’s like one thing. The second thing I would probably do. What I’ve realized talking to a lot of business owners and entrepreneurs is it’s not what they’re. It’s not doing more, it’s doing less is critical. We’re all leaking energy in all sorts of ways and I don’t want you to do that. So you really need to audit what you’re doing. This is more personal, but it will help your business. Like, what, what are you doing every day that’s holding you back? Write that down. You know, and we talked about the people that you’re with, the screens that are in front of you, the data that you’re taking in. Are you, you know, I have, I have friends and family that have high anxiety and I’m like, well, what do you, I say, are you watching a lot of news? Are you like, yeah, watching Facebook and social media and tick tock. And, and I watch the news. I’m like, that could be a problem, right? Maybe, maybe you shouldn’t, maybe you shouldn’t be doing that. Oh, I have to, I, I have to stay up on it. You do? Why, why do you have, why do you have to stay up on it? Is it okay? Well, okay, let’s say that’s true. Let’s figure out a couple things that can reduce that six hours a day.

Drew McLellan [00:48:48]:
Yeah, yeah. Down to 20 minutes.

Joe Pulizzi [00:48:50]:
To 20 minutes.

Drew McLellan [00:48:51]:
Yeah.

Joe Pulizzi [00:48:52]:
And that’s all that you’re going to give yourself to do. And you can fill in. I mean, and then we talk about this in the book. Just about like, okay, well, wow, you just freed up five hours a day. This is incredible. What are we going to do with that? Okay, well, we’re going to, this is what we’re going to do for our mind. We’re going to read these things and we’re going to. Oh, we. For our health. And we’re going to work out for 30 minutes or we’re going to run or we’re going to what, we’re going to eat these things and not these things. I mean, you got to look at everything. I mean, who knows? We might all live forever if robotics and Elon has this way. Who knows?

Drew McLellan [00:49:26]:
That’s right.

Joe Pulizzi [00:49:27]:
Let’s set ourselves up for six success with that. So I would say put down the things that you’re doing and most likely you need to get rid of some things. And that could, by the way, that could hold really well for the business where again, you can take the business from the outside. But that’s not how we market, that’s not how we communicate. So then let’s take that stopping things to your marketing. Generally, what I found is you’ll have an agency that says, oh well, okay, well we got the Facebook page, we’re on LinkedIn, I’ve got the CEO, you’re doing your thing on LinkedIn. And then you’ve got the LinkedIn business area. And then, oh, we’re trying this podcast and we’ve got this newsletter and we’re doing this webinar series and whatever. And I’m like, okay, how’s that working for you? What’s working the best? I don’t know. Okay, well let’s find out. Because what somebody will say, like they might realize, boy, I really want, I really feel we’ve got some great writers in the organization and I really feel if we did this regular newsletter on this topic that we have some expertise in, it would be a real advantage, but we just don’t have the time to do it. Where are you going to get that time from? You’re going to get that time from all that crap that you’re doing every week that’s absolutely not moving the needle at all and nobody’s paying attention to it. Like for example, my take and this. Somebody might disagree with me, but LinkedIn business pages are worthless and they are doing nothing for your business, most likely, unless you’re a mission driven organization. If you’re just an agency, I bet you it’s doing nothing for you. So let’s take that and split it into individuals in your organization and put that for that. So I would say that. What else would I do? I would probably say how do we get your people, not just you as the agency owner, how do we get your people to shine with their expertise to the audiences that you want to target? And I talked about this obviously at your summit and I feel like that’s the huge unlock and opportunity with AI over the next 12 to 18 months where it seems to be that company sponsored communications are being pushed down and individual creators are being risen up. Well, let’s take a shot at that. Instead of all the things coming from you, the agency, let’s give projects, like really important projects to individuals in your organization and let them own it. It’s almost like the 8020 or the 9010 that Google did. It’s like. But it’s part of their jobs. I believe every, everybody that works in an agency should also be marketing for the agency. I’ve always believed that any company, the biggest thing that you have going for you as your employees are your best marketers. Well, let’s, let’s take that out for a run. Let’s see how we go. So maybe the podcast, it’s not you, the agency owner again doing something. This is your chief strategy officer doing a podcast or it’s your designer doing the newsletter or it is your technology person doing the webinars. You know, whatever. Give them something. And if, if instead of just having everything come from this one thing, you have like an octopus of arms and wonderful and reaching out to your different audiences in different ways and you’re building that know like and trust not just through here’s the agency brand and here’s what we stand for. We’re giving that power, rightfully so back to the people.

Drew McLellan [00:53:10]:
Yeah.

Joe Pulizzi [00:53:11]:
The problem is is that a lot of agency owners risk averse and they feel like, oh well what if, what if that person leaves? Okay, well do you not train them? Like what, what if you train them and they leave? Well, of course you’re going to train them. Well, what if they become great communicator? You know what, they’re more likely to stay. If you give them creative freedom over these types of things, they’re more likely to stay. They will become great assets. You know, if they leave and they go build their own agency, great. You have an ally somewhere else. Like let’s focus on that. So that’s probably what I would, that what I would start with. It’s kind of the less is more the focusing and then let’s have the communication be where it rightfully belongs. And that’s with your employees.

Drew McLellan [00:53:57]:
Yeah. Love it. Love it. All right, so we’ve been talking about the book and I’m sure a lot of the listeners have already read it. But I also know that you have decided that this is the book you want to have in the hands of every man, woman, child, boy, girl on the planet. So I know you’re giving away the book. So talk about how folks can track you down, can follow your teachings, can subscribe to your newsletter, which is a must read book and also can if they want to get a copy of the book.

Joe Pulizzi [00:54:27]:
Thank you so much. Yeah, so my newsletter is, is called the Tilt and that’s we talk about everything we talked about. That’s what I talk about every week. Like, how can you focus on more ownership, more control over your life? What are the things we have to do with AI coming? And that’s the tilt.com and then with the book, if you go to joe polizzi.com d u l I Z Z I, you’ll write on the homepage, get the book for free. It’s a free ebook. You can, or you can get the Epub and put it right into your Kindle if you want to. But yeah, I mean, and I, you know, as part of that whole transparency thing we talked about, I wrote this book for my kids. It’s all the stuff that I wanted to tell them that they never listened to me about. Like, like, you just, you never can find the right time to talk, you know? You know, like, you want to tell them so much.

Drew McLellan [00:55:20]:
I love that you had them be your proofreaders so that they would kind of have to read the book and get the lessons. Was brilliant. It was brilliantly as a brilliant strategy.

Joe Pulizzi [00:55:29]:
Thank you. It’s, yeah. So I, I, I wrote the draft and I send it to both of them. And I said, I really would like your feedback on this and I will buy you dinner wherever you want to go. They picked Olive Garden. Not my first choice, but that’s okay that they wanted the breadsticks.

Drew McLellan [00:55:44]:
That’s an economic, that’s an all you can eat breadsticks. That’s a big seller. Right.

Joe Pulizzi [00:55:49]:
And it was wonderful. They were so thoughtful about it, and I absolutely integrated a ton of their feedback because they’re like, dad, this part, this, this part where you’re talking about Batman is really cringy. I’m like, yeah, it is a little bit. It’s like, probably right. You got me on that one. But they, they were, they were great about it. But yeah, so I wrote it, I wrote it for them. I lead off the book and say, I wrote this for, for my kids. And I, it’s all the things about if, if you have your life figured out and you’re 100 happy, you don’t need this book. But if you’re going through any kind of change, whether it’s in work, your spiritual life, your health, whatever it is, I, I, I feel this is a good book to sort of take you to the, to the next level. So, yeah, completely free. JoePolizzi.com or burn the playbook in any search engine, it should, it should come right up. Make sure you get the free version because you can go out in Amazon. You can Go out and buy a hard copy from Amazon or me directly. But you don’t. You don’t have to do that. You can just get the ebook. Yeah.

Drew McLellan [00:56:49]:
Thank you for your generosity. Thanks for being on the show again. And as you know, I was super grateful that you were at the summit this year and shared this wisdom. Everybody needed both a kick in the rear end and a boost, and I think your work always does both. It’s always thought provoking, but it’s also always hopeful and encouraging. And that’s a. That’s a lovely voice to have in this time of. Of crazy chaos.

Joe Pulizzi [00:57:17]:
Well, thank you for offering the place where the community comes, because you have some really good and special and talented people that are, as I said before, shockingly vulnerable. And that’s what. That’s what’s wonderful about your event. And they’re all givers. So thank you for. For keeping that going, and I’m looking forward to being there again soon.

Drew McLellan [00:57:40]:
Yeah, that was awesome. Thank you. All right, guys, so this wraps up this episode. Your homework is what Joe outlined In the last 10 minutes of this podcast. Grab at least one of those activities and put it into plan the next week. Go grab a copy of the book if you haven’t already read it, but start to really think about how do you want to consciously reorchestrate some of the things that are being demanded to change in this moment that we’re in? Because I think this moment’s going to stick around for a while, so we have to reinvent a little bit. And I actually think for most of you, you’re creators, and so reinvention shouldn’t be a hard for you. Hopefully it’s not too scary, but it also should be invigorating for you. You love to create. It’s why you got into the business. So it’s a chance for you to recreate your already successful agency into an agency that’s going to thrive in the future and be even more meaningful to people and be even more valuable. Get more referrals because you’re sort of getting down to the core. And I think that is a really lovely opportunity for you to take, and I want you to do it. All Right, before I let you go, last couple things. Number one, huge shout out and thank you to our friends at White Label iq. You know, they’re the presenting sponsor of the podcast, so I talked about them on the beginning of the show about whitelabeliq.com AMI and this episode is a perfect example. I don’t get to do this I don’t get to have these conversations every week. I don’t get to hang out with people like Joe every week if you don’t keep listening. And so I am super grateful that you keep coming back. We’ve been doing this together for, gosh, almost 15 years now, every week, coming together. And I am so thankful that you carve out time in your crazy busy world to hang out with me on the treadmill or the subway or walking the dog or whatever it is we’re doing together. I am, I am grateful for your time and your attention and I will keep bringing cool guests like Joe if you keep coming back. Okay? All right. I’ll be back next week. Hope you will too. Talk to you then

Danyel McLellan [00:59:43]:
come back next week for another episode designed to help you build a stronger, more stable and sustainable agency. Check out our workshops, coaching and consulting packages and other professional development [email protected].