Essential Project Management Skills for Agencies with Danielle McCier

Danyel McLellan [00:00:01]:
It doesn’t matter what kind of agency you run, traditional digital media, buying, web dev, PR or brand, whatever your focus, you still need to run a profitable business. The Build a Better Agency podcast presented by White Label IQ will expose you to the best practices that drive growth, client and employee retention and profitability. Bringing his 25 plus years of experience as both an agency owner and agency consultant, please welcome your host, Drew McClell. Drew McLellan.

Drew McLellan [00:00:37]:
Hey everybody, Drew McLellan here. Welcome back to Build a Better Agency, the podcast where we focus on how you can grow an agency that is scalable, that is sustainable, and if you want to down the road, it’s sellable. And one of the ways that we focus on sort of that at those aspects of the business is, is by making sure that we just talk about the business of your business. We focus on exactly what you need to know about running a profitable agency today. Today is no exception to that rule. So I’m going to tell you a little bit about our guests in a minute. But first, as always, I want to say a huge thank you to our friends at White Label iq. They are the presenting sponsor of this podcast. They go out of their way to work with agencies all over the world to help them bring design, dev, PPC and paid media to their clients. They white label that they can meet directly with your clients if you want them to. They can work through you if you want them to. They build their team to support you. And the best thing is they come from an agency. That’s how they came to, that’s how they came into the world is that a AMI agency was struggling trying to find a web dev partner that could work at the pace that they needed to and at pricing where they could still make some money. And they couldn’t find it. And so they built it. They have literally sat in your chair. They know what it’s like to have a client pressuring you to be cost effective and yet still deliver an amazing product. And they built their business to serve agencies because they understand that exact same pain that you go through all the time when you try and find a great partner. So today all they do is work with agencies, helping them with design, dev and paid media. So when you talk to them, you don’t really have to explain your world because they come from your world and so that gives you a great leg up. And you know that their pricing is set so that everybody can make a profit and deliver an amazing project to your client. So check them [email protected] AMI they’ve got a special deal there for you. If you never worked with them before, some free hours. And also, if nothing else, shoot them a quick email and thank them for being a sponsor of this podcast for so long. They really do help make it possible for us to keep putting this show on. So by all means, let them know that you appreciate that. Okay? All right. So many of you know that one of the hardest things about running an agency is the blocking and tackling of getting the work done. Getting everybody on the team on the same page, knowing exactly what you have to deliver, when you have to deliver it, what exactly you have to deliver. So it’s not only what you’re doing, how deeply you’re doing it. Is it the Mona Lisa of logos? Is it a down and dirty logo that’s just for a quick event, but with all of that coordination, that has just gotten so much more complicated. And as we move work through our shop so much faster. The role of project management or operations side of the business has become so critical for most agencies. You know, Danielle and I talk all the time about the power of a great project management system, of a great project manager leading that team and the power that they give the rest of the people in the agency the ability to focus on their job. And so today’s guest comes from that world and is going to talk about all of the ways that we can embrace the idea of project management, the power of that role, and the importance of that role in today’s agency. So without further ado, let’s welcome Danielle McCier to the show because I can’t wait to ask her some questions on your behalf. Danielle, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us.

Danielle McCier [00:04:41]:
Thank you for having me.

Drew McLellan [00:04:42]:
Drew, tell everybody a little bit about your background and how you came to have this expertise.

Danielle McCier [00:04:48]:
Yes. Yes. So I actually started off in the music industry working behind the scenes, working with artists just as a liaison, and kind of found a passion in that. I then eventually transitioned over into advertising after things went from digital. Well, really things started going from hard copies to digital. As, you know, with CDs, they went digital. With radio stations, they started doing streaming. So it was an opportunity in my career to really say, okay, I love music, I love entertainment, but how can I really see this as a career? So I eventually transitioned into advertising. I started off as a whole at a holding company. Had to start all over again. But it definitely gave me the opportunity to understand advertising and the true nuances behind what advertising does and all the various things that you can do within advertising between PR and digital and new media and all those things. But my boss at the time knew that I was a bit like shaky because everything went digital. And he said, okay, I’m actually going to put you in digital media. And that’s where I transitioned into operations and just really, really found a niche there. Again, understanding that I loved being a liaison, but understanding like the logistics and the process behind it, advertising definitely, and operations, specifically in project management, opened that door and that opportunity for me.

Drew McLellan [00:06:22]:
And so what was really eye opening for you when you switched over and you started working in agencies, especially as they moved you into the operational role, as you know, and you and I have talked a lot of agencies sort of see that role kind of as a glorified admin, right. There’s somebody that just fills in some blanks, whether it’s back in the day on paper and today on a, in a CRM or a project management tool. When did you begin to understand the potential of that role? When somebody really embraced it for all that it could be?

Danielle McCier [00:07:00]:
Oh, that’s such a great question. Just to your point, being a project manager and also coming from being an administrative assistant and executive assistant, there’s a, there’s a big difference. There are definitely some, some consistencies, you know, making sure that whether you’re an admin, your boss is fully, fully understanding what the ask or understanding what they need at that given moment. Then going over to project management, what I noticed is the understanding of the ask and the importance of it and then how to define that. Right. So one of the biggest things that I noticed with being an admin versus being a PM is that again, there’s so many, there’s so many components being taken into consideration. When somebody again delivers the ask, I want to go viral. I want a website. It’s again, it’s totally different from, hey, schedule this meeting on the books for me and can you sit in the background and maybe translate some of these notes? You’re understanding it, but you’re really just there to transcribe notes. When you then shift over to being a project manager, you have to turn your ears on. So understanding that, yes, I’m here for a meeting, but also like, where can I really show my value? So that’s where I really started to level things up. So understanding that, yes, I do have to take notes, but what are the people looking for with those notes actionable next steps? Are they looking for who said what? So understanding that one, not everybody wants to get their notes the same. Not everybody understands the ask the same. So Making sure that one, you’re aligned at each level. Because assumption will cost time, money, pain, endless sleepless nights. So making sure that communication is on point, understanding the ask, and then understanding what needs to happen in order for that ask to see its way through.

Drew McLellan [00:09:05]:
Yeah. I think when I think about it, I think of as an admin, as somebody who is asked to do a task and their job is to complete the task. Right. And a project manager is asked to lead an outcome. And so yes, you may be doing some administrative things, but a great project manager truly is a leader and sits at a leadership level and is contributing in a. Almost. I think of them as kind of a wrangler. Right. They’re wrangling all the different people who are involved, whether it’s the creatives and the account service people and the client. And it’s like all these people need something, they don’t all need the same thing. My job is to make sure we deliver a great product that is on.

Danielle McCier [00:09:51]:
On go on time, right? Yeah.

Drew McLellan [00:09:54]:
On point number one, like, it delivers what we promise, but also on scope, on time and on budget. And so you don’t, you don’t do that by just doing what everybody tells you to do, because every one of those people is telling you how to do something, telling you to do something different. And you have to assimilate what everybody is telling you and then figure out and then lead them all on the right path to get everybody what they want within timeline and budget. Right?

Danielle McCier [00:10:23]:
Yes. Yes. So I’m glad that you. Yes. Putting a phrase on it, being a task manager versus being a project manager. It’s a multitude of tasks, right. It’s a multitude of people, it’s a multitude of evolving what the initial ask would be. So I’m glad that you said wrangling things because I actually put together a book, a small guide just for project managers, because one of the biggest thing is, yes, we’re asked to wrangle said chaos. Name of my book is Wrangling Chaos. But the biggest thing is that the chaos, sometimes it’s a beautiful thing, but it is in need of structure and it is in need of, I don’t want to say constant communication because everything is different, but an understanding. Right? So with a project understanding, the ask, going back to what I initially said, talking with your brand partners, talking with your strategy partners, but then also making sure that the client is aligned with that. Because at that level, if your expectation and their expectations are two different things and you kick off a team with said wrong thing, then that Avalanche is sometimes, again, costly and sometimes it goes to a point of no return. And as a project manager, as you know, like, we don’t do the work. So when we see certain things, our job is to look two steps in advance to at least identify or have a conversation about what the potential risks might be. So, for example, right now I’m dealing with a client where we need to sell in a big idea. It starts with a big idea, but then what does that big idea really look like? Is it a script? Is it a manifesto? Is it a storyboard? We need to align at the ask level what that looks like so that when you don’t go into that client review, they’re not like, where’s my storyboard? Where’s my script? Where is my X, Y and Z? So again, very, very important at the very beginning of the ask to understand, and at times, back when I was really, really in, in. In the. In the weeds of things, I would have the client sign off on said brief. Right?

Drew McLellan [00:12:39]:
No. Right. Absolutely right.

Danielle McCier [00:12:41]:
Yeah.

Drew McLellan [00:12:42]:
No signature, no work. Right. Because otherwise. Otherwise the client goes, well, that’s not what I meant.

Danielle McCier [00:12:47]:
Exactly, exactly. So brief scopes of work, staffing plans, all of that needs to be discussed at the very beginning. Because if your ambition, again, is one thing, and it’s based on what you know you’re resourcing to be and your clients, like I want to go viral, that means a360 campaign where you have a film, you have, you have out of home ads, you have paid media running everywhere. But what does that mean as far as resourcing? Right. So all of those things have to be really, really taken into consideration at the ask level. And a project manager, if you don’t know your super human strengths, you’re just going to let everybody talk about it and assume that everything is good.

Drew McLellan [00:13:35]:
Well, I think one of the great, one of the things that a great PM does is it’s all about the clarity of the details. And that all starts at the kickoff, right?

Danielle McCier [00:13:45]:
Absolutely.

Drew McLellan [00:13:45]:
So if we kick off well and we actually have a common understanding down to the detail of what we’re doing and why we’re doing it. And to your point earlier, we’ve all signed off on it. Now we can’t, you know, ambiguity or confusion or taking a left turn when the client really wanted you to take a right turn, all of that puts the project at risk, it puts the budget at risk, and ultimately it can put the relationship at risk, the relationship

Danielle McCier [00:14:17]:
not only with you and the client, but you and your team. Right. So if your team does not feel like they can trust that you as the liaison, the person who is at times supposed to speak on their behalf, whether it be internally, the way that I kind of look at it, it is project managers are like the main point of contact when it comes to internal comms. And then brand and account are the main point of contact when it comes to external comms. Clients, vendors X, Y and Z. If they’re putting our trust in being able to speak to the speak for them and we are not doing it right, or heaven forbid, we are essentially just doing exactly what the client ask you are, then now, especially within my position, I then go back to that same copywriter, designer, and they don’t want to work on this account, right? Because.

Drew McLellan [00:15:08]:
Because they’re the ones who are going to get thrown under the bus, right?

Danielle McCier [00:15:10]:
They are the ones getting thrown under the bus. And then again, going back to my earlier thing, the account, brand, project manager, operations, we do not do the work. So when we start putting together timelines, we start talking to said client and start promising certain things on behalf of the creative team. Then, yes, then the creative team, they could be like, okay, I’m not able to do that. And now you have egg on your face serving up to the client something that you promised that you didn’t do because you don’t do the work and now you and the clients have a misunderstanding, right?

Drew McLellan [00:15:46]:
Well, and I think a lot of times it’s, it’s the. It’s like playing telephone, right? So if I whisper in your ear and then you whisper in someone else’s ear and they whisper in someone else’s ear, it’s usually somebody on the production side that’s the last one who gets whispered to. And if, and if they hear something completely different, they’re doing their best work that they understand the work to be. But then, but when the client goes, that’s not what I asked for, and the account person comes back from the meeting and goes, that’s not what they asked for. Like, it all cascades down. And to your point, if you’re. I think of a project manager as kind of the hub of a wheel, right? Like all the spokes lead into the project management department because they’re the ones who are talking to everybody and also our Switzerland, like, they’re not trying to screw the creatives to benefit the account service people. And they’re tempering everybody’s expectations because everybody wants, you know, creatives want more time, account service people want it done tomorrow. You know, everybody wants you Know, creatives want a bigger budget. Account service people want a smaller. But like to make all of those people in alignment, to agree that to deliver what we want to deliver, here’s all the variables. That requires somebody who stays in it and stays in the detail. And if you don’t have a project manager, then typically it’s the account people who are doing it right, who don’t

Danielle McCier [00:17:16]:
want to do it. And to be honest with you, how can you be an A student if you’re doing both?

Drew McLellan [00:17:21]:
Right.

Danielle McCier [00:17:22]:
You know, Right. I think that with, with briefs and with scopes of work, it is super important to identify the. The deliverables. That’s one of the first things that I ask when, when we get said ask, what’s the timing? What are the deliverables and what are the expectations? Because if you’re not clear on that and just to your earlier point, when I do a production handoff and then they’re supposed to actually take the vision and turn it into reality and there’s nothing for them to actually react to that is approved, then. Then again, you’re not. Everybody is. Well, in my position. Everybody’s going to look at you and be like, okay, well, you dropped the ball somewhere, as opposed to saying, no, it started here and then it. Then it cascaded here and all this other stuff. So for me, just to. When I do switch hands and I formalize a handoff. So for a producer, it’s important to your point to after all of this work, all of these endless, endless nights and all of these things, you want to make sure that the concept, the script on paper. Now, is this a beautiful thing that you as a creative have envisioned? So who is that point person that’s going to be able to do all of those things and connect all those tissue? You would love for it to be the account person, but to be honest with you, their bias. Exactly. Their priority is what the client wants. So if the client wants certain things that might be totally different from what is actually being done. And with a project manager, I know what happened from the ask. I know what happened through concepting to where we then went into creative. We might have even done some testing. But before it goes into, before it goes to a shoot, there is an approved script. There is, there, there are. Everybody is aligned on what the vision looks like. If it’s a storyboard, great. If it’s animatics, even better. But it’s super, super important to your point to make sure that everybody is in their lane.

Drew McLellan [00:19:33]:
Yep. So I think one of the most Important skills that a project manager has is the ability to have hard but candid conversations with everybody else on the team, regardless of rank or role, because everybody’s going to want things that can’t be done or are unrealistic or out of budget. So talk about in your career, how did you learn how to have those conversations in a way that ended with the person wanting to do what you want and need them to do, even though that wasn’t how they started the conversation, they didn’t want to do it. How do you bring them around to seeing the reality and wanting to be a part of that reality?

Danielle McCier [00:20:21]:
So I’m going to be honest with you, and this is important for your listeners. It starts with the executives. It really starts with my executive leadership team understanding that what their goal is is now synthesized to an actual team to execute. Right? So the difficult conversations for me might be, hey, I know that we have this ambition level. Maybe this might be an opportunity for us to go in and win the audience and win the client, and then come in with ambition afterwards. Or it’s a hard conversation where it’s like, this is not the team that I need. This is a social ask, and you’re giving me a tech team there and again, going back to the executive team, understanding what the infrastructure and how to build your staffing around it is super important, as opposed to just throwing bodies at said ask. So understanding that that is super important because it does translate into dollars, it does translate into time, it does translate into relationships. So those hard conversations, when I tell you I have them once a week hence, well, not hints, but I have a leadership call once a week. I make sure whether it’s Monday or Friday for my accounts, I have a leads call. It’s an opportunity for all of us to keep it funky, but. But an opportunity for us to air grievances, right? An opportunity for us to say, hey, I know that we were supposed to go in with four or five big ideas to the client, but the client has decision paralysis. So we need to make sure that if we do go in with four, I’m leaning on you guys to bring me to one or two out. And those are the hard, very direct, candid conversations that at times will get me in trouble. Where it can be a situation where I needed to maybe doll it up a bit or I needed to make sure that I was able to identify the problem and suggest a solution. One of the biggest things that I’ve tried to communicate with, learning from myself, having these kind of hard conversations as well as Trying to kind of help junior PMs and PMs navigate it are three, three things. Identify the problem, make sure that it is direct. Pretend like you’re on an elevator with the executive. You only have maybe two minutes. So make sure you identify the problem. Make sure that you give them some examples. Because what you might be explaining is a problem. They’re like, I don’t understand what you’re saying. Give them an example, but then give them a suggested solution. Because if you just continue to go to people with problems, you are now no longer a trusted valued member. You need to be able to go and in whatever hard conversation that it is, make sure that you’re one prepared and then if you can, double click on that and make sure that you have some suggestions to go along with it.

Drew McLellan [00:23:23]:
So I think a lot of a PM’s job is to cultivate relationship when you’re not in, and I don’t mean conflict in a, like you’re fighting way, but in a, like you want something and they want something else. Right. So tell them to talk to me a little bit about how do you cultivate, how does a good PM cultivate? Because every day you’re telling someone no. Right, like that’s a part of the job.

Danielle McCier [00:23:49]:
Yeah.

Drew McLellan [00:23:50]:
Because somebody else’s yes is somebody else’s no or not now or not that much or whatever. So how did you, how did you cultivate relationship with people so that they did trust you and they did, they did listen enough to understand that maybe their original vision wasn’t what the client bought or whatever, but how did you, how did you earn and keep that trust?

Danielle McCier [00:24:16]:
So it’s super important to understand that it’s not one size fits all. So in order for me to kind of establish a rapport and a trust is to approach every situation understanding that I am a subject matter expert. But just because what I know works and I know it’s going to work again two steps down the line, doesn’t mean that I need to go in as a know it all. So in the beginning, whenever I’m on an account, I am having one on ones with the leads. I’m understanding their work style because some, some people want you to ask how their weekend was. Some people want you to give straight to business. Right. And there’s no way for me to understand or know that just by looking at somebody. So it’s super important at the very beginning. One, when you get assigned to an account, understand if you can from your manager why you’re being assigned to this account, what they know about that account so that you can come in and not just have to go in and ask all of these questions. Because again, that then disestablishes trust. So then you can go in and now you have somewhat of an anchor to have those conversations. So I’m meeting with my brand and my account person. I’m understanding their working styles. I’m understanding. Have you ever worked with a pm? Because just to your earlier point, they had to play that hybrid role. So what does that look like? Because now what I don’t want to do is have you doing my job and me doing your job. So let’s have, let’s, let’s put together a nice little race C document so that we understand here are the roles and responsibilities for myself. Here are the roles and responsibilities for you. And then we can even dial that up and go into a project manager, a senior project manager, a brand director, all that good jazz. Having sources of truth are super, super important to establish. Again, if you’re going to. From one account to another, there’s something that you can refer back to. But again, going and talking to the strategist. Different strategists work different types of ways, but for me, the core are the creatives. So I’m talking with the creative, the creative teams. Because some, some love and Excel, some are allergic to Excel, some right, some understand box. Some people only save stuff to their desktop. So it’s important for you understand how they like to work, but also how they manage their team. Because one of the things, just to your point, soft skills are super important. If you don’t find a way to empower your creative leads, then they are just a creative director at title. They’re not managing a team right. So I find myself saying, hey, have you gone out to eat? Have you, have you taken, have you taken the opportunity to find out what they want to do with your creative team? So those are the things that can only happen if I start off with, hey, creative director, what is your goal when you want to. Do you want to win an award? Win, win. You say, this is my account. This is, this is what I envision. This is what I want to put up on my, on my portfolio or anything. What does that mean for you? So that then again I can take my process and all of those things that are going on my head and going on in my head and kind of make it work for me. So again with the creative director making sure that they understand, okay, there might be something that I need from you that, that I’m really going to, that I’m really going to depend on you for. So how is it, what is it that I can do for you? I need you to have a daily. I need you to have a standing daily huddle because you got to understand, I’m on all of these things. I want to be a power player. I want to help you, and I understand that you need my help. But there’s going to be certain things where I’m going to need you to tee it up for me. Okay, well, what does that look like? Let’s, let’s talk about status. Let’s talk about a morning huddle where at least we can have an open forum so it doesn’t feel like it’s so stringent to where you’re giving me something to then give my team. Now we can talk about it as a community. Now the copywriter that’s busy now, the other copywriter can say, hey, I can help you out.

Drew McLellan [00:28:25]:
Right?

Danielle McCier [00:28:26]:
All of those things.

Drew McLellan [00:28:28]:
Yeah, yeah. It really, it is a complicated role, for sure. I want to take a quick break and when we come back, I want to talk a little bit about the power of systems in an agency and how a project manager drives and sometimes creates systems. So let’s take a quick break and then we’ll come back and we’ll dig into the dreaded S word.

Danielle McCier [00:28:48]:
Sounds good.

Drew McLellan [00:28:49]:
Okay. I want to take a quick moment to reassure you that when we bring sponsors on the show, these are people that we know and trust. And that is absolutely true of our friends at Job Rack. When agencies ask us about long term remote hiring, we often introduce them to Noel at jobrack. We’ve spent time with him. We see how he approaches hiring decisions. We’re confident sending AMI agencies his way. That’s why we’re thrilled to have them on board as a paid sponsor of this podcast. If international hiring is something you’re thinking about this year, they’ve put together a really thoughtful hiring playbook with lots of tips and [email protected] AMI Again, one more time. Jobrack.com AMI, you’re definitely going to want to take advantage of some of the great advice that’s in that playbook. Hey, I don’t want to take too long, but I do want to tell you that two of our favorite workshops to teach money matters and running your agency for growth and profit are on the website now and you can register. So money matters is two days of just talking about money. Everything from financial metrics to best practices of when to hire, how to Price, how to pay your folks, tax strategies, anything related to money, we talk about over the course of the two days. And we literally will have people walking up to us who have run their agency for 25 years saying, I wish I had known this stuff 20 years ago. So we’re teaching that workshop twice a year now. So going to be in Denver both times. It’s coming up October 16th and 17th in 2023 and March 12th and 13th in 2024. And you think that’s so far away, but honestly it’s not. And they sell out. So don’t wait too long before you grab your seat again. Money matters either October 16th and 17th or March 12th and 13th. The other one we love to teach is running your agency for growth and profit. So that agent, that workshop is two days of taking a step back and looking at all the best practices in all of the behind the scenes things we do. Money, operations, biz, dev, leadership, systems and processes, how we get work done. We talk about all of the ways that agencies can get better in those areas, which absolutely leads to happier owners, happier employees, better bottom line, more profit. Our whole goal with that workshop is helping you be more efficient and effective, more stable, more sustainable so you can make more money and keep more of the money you make. That workshop is coming up in April, on April 11th and 12th, 2024. And again, you can register for that today on the AMI website. So just for both of these workshops, money matters and running your agency for growth and profit, head over to the AMI website, go to the how we Help tab, drop down to workshops and you’ll see them right there. We would love to have you join us here in Denver for either of those workshops or both. All right, we are back and we are talking about the power and importance of project management. And you know, I have been in the business a long time and when I think about how much more complicated the work is today and all the different channels that we didn’t have back when I started and you know, agency owners and leaders and creatives, as a general rule, we like to do things the way we like to do things, right. And, and, and I think a lot of agency people think of systems or processes as being constraining as opposed to actually taking care of the minutia so you can be more strategic and more creative. So talk a little bit about sort of what, where you see the role of project management in alignment with agency systems and process.

Danielle McCier [00:32:49]:
So I have this conversation with my manager on the regular. There needs to be agency sources of truth when you move around from one account to another, you as a creative, even you as a pm, want a sense of familiarity, right? So understanding that status documents are super, super important because that gives an opportunity for you to understand what’s going on, all the various workflows, as well as be able to communicate it up to your manager or even have your manager be able to communicate it to said person. So if there is a source of truth where it’s plain English, it doesn’t need to come from you. So certain things like that, in addition, saving mechanisms, understanding that there are going to be ways that are easier for you. Again, when I mentioned certain scripts and certain contracts being saved in teams or being saved on desktop, it’s important for you to figure out where you’re going to save documents. Is it going to be boxed? Is it going to be SharePoint? Do the people that have access to it know how to access it? We transitioned over to SharePoint, and when I tell you the permissions and all of that right before a meeting, it can really, really again cause unnecessary frustration. So understanding and establishing process. I know that sometimes it’s not sexy again, but again, when it comes to a status document or a pipeline tracker or even a forecasting cruise report, those are the things that then can be articulated to the client. If I put together an ad hoc tracker now, when you go to the client and say, I need incremental funds, and they say, well, why or what are you talking about? Now you’re able to say, hey, based on the scope, we’ve done this, but based on the incremental asks, here are the things that we’ve done, or based on the timesheets, here’s a burn report. I’ve been on many accounts where creatives will be like, I’m burning, I’m burning, I’m burning high, I’m burning high, I’m about to burn out, my bandwidth is stretched. All this other stuff, how is that going to be articulated to said people? So if you don’t have a timesheet system, if you don’t have some type of way of forecasting, if you don’t have a resourcing partner to partner with, the operations or project manager, you are literally going to continue to see your creative team turn over every six months.

Drew McLellan [00:35:33]:
Yeah.

Danielle McCier [00:35:34]:
So making sure that you have those sources of truth, making sure that you’re able to then take those sources of truth and articulate them in an actionable form. It’s just important. I can’t stress it enough.

Drew McLellan [00:35:47]:
So what role do you think the project manager plays in developing or improving systems and process.

Danielle McCier [00:35:55]:
I think they’re at the front lines when it comes to putting together processes. The reason why it’s good for operation, and we mentioned it at the beginning, is because we have our hands in everything. So for myself, I don’t write briefs, but I help put together the brief template so that we understand the ask, the audience, the restrictions, the budget, all of those things. So it might not be for the project manager to own, but it’s definitely something that they should be involved in because when it comes to certain things, again, you want consistency. So if you have a pm, they are likely on a number of things and are able to bring said things into those conversations so that there is a through line.

Drew McLellan [00:36:46]:
Yeah. Let’s talk a little bit about sort of the idea of burnout, because I think that’s a very hot topic right now, you know, and people are really struggling with it. And really it was prevalent pre Covid, and then Covid just sort of magnified it. And I think Covid made it okay to talk about more than we talked about it before. So I think it’s. I don’t think Covid caused burnout. I just think it. It normalized the conversation around it.

Danielle McCier [00:37:15]:
Agreed.

Drew McLellan [00:37:16]:
So from a project management point of view, because again, that’s a very unique lens that you look into an agency. What causes burnout on all the teams, not just the creative team, but the account service team. What, where. Where does that come from, do you think?

Danielle McCier [00:37:30]:
Assumptions. Assumptions. So one of one of the earlier accounts that I was on, it was a retained team. Those are sometimes the unicorn of teams, where you have 100% dedicated team members. But then what happens is that you assume that whatever the ask is, however many asks come in, they’re. They’re able to do it and that

Drew McLellan [00:37:54]:
is they can do them all right.

Danielle McCier [00:37:55]:
Yes. And there’s only 40 hours a week now. Burnout, the conversation specifically. Now, with all. With the industry shifting into, again, a lot of holding companies, what I had mentioned earlier is having those conversations at the executive level, so that the CD who used to take work and then finesse it now becomes a working cd. The gcd, who used to assign people to go to shoots, is now going to the shoot, making sure that most everybody has a manager in their title. So I do hate that there is an assumption that goes along with it and there is an extreme need for training. What’s going on. And to go back to the burnout situation is that when you become a director, you become a Senior, you’re really doing multiple jobs, and if you don’t know that you’re doing multiple jobs, you’re going to burn out. And if you didn’t have a good manager or you didn’t get trained, you don’t have the necessary tools to even be able to navigate that. Right. So. So when it comes to a burnout for. Or for me feeling like, oh, I have too much, I’m able to articulate it, I’m able to prioritize it. And if the only reason why I know how to do that is because I was trained at that first job, what is my priority? And knowing that my priority shifts day to day. And so for. With a lot of these conversations, it’s important for, for one, for a manager to understand, hey, the industry that we’re in right now is going through some things, so understand that what you are being hired for, you might not just do that one job, but that actually helps you out, but also ask the questions, do the things. Like I asked my manager, hey, if I’m going to start leading a lot of these calls, can I get some career counseling? Can I get somebody who can give me the tools so that I can articulate in a way that. So that when it goes to the right people, they know exactly what I’m saying at their level?

Drew McLellan [00:40:05]:
Yeah, so true. So if people are listening to this and they’re going, yep, we need a. We either need a different project manager or we need a dedicated project manager, you know, a lot of the listeners are in smaller shops where a project manager may seem like a luxury. And one of the things we say to at AMI is, you know, if you’re under 15 people, it might be a luxury, but by the time you get to 20 people, you need a PM. Right. And so if they’re listening and they’re like, okay, Danielle’s right. I probably need. I probably need this, or I need a different one. If you were hiring a PM today, what would you look for in terms of both hard and soft skills? And how would you test their ability to do the job?

Danielle McCier [00:40:51]:
Oh, okay. Hard and soft skills. And test it. So when you are at an agency where it might be smaller, you definitely need somebody who’s more senior. I’ve had a number of conversations where people come to me and they’re like, we hired a studio manager and we’re asking them to do PM work, and they don’t know what I’m talking about. Well, that’s because you. They don’t. Right. So understanding.

Drew McLellan [00:41:19]:
Yeah. This is not an entry level position, not right.

Danielle McCier [00:41:22]:
So hard skills, it’s super important for you to understand where they are as far as systems and processes, where they’re familiar with things as far as like The Teams, the SharePoint, the Microsoft Office, understanding that it is an organizational heavy, heavy dominated field. So making sure that somebody who is able to speak that language or to tell you that they have a process already put in place is super important. I do think that sometimes when it comes to hard skills, it gets a little funky because people are like, well, how do you do timelines? I’m like, I still do them in Excel. There are so many other things where I can do asana or I can do all these other things, but I’m able to do it in Smartsheet or Excel where I can have myself something that can shift it. As soon as you say more, move that out a day. But you have the other tools where you can definitely embrace AI. You can start understanding again. When I was saying with the note taking, I’ve embraced AI when it comes to note taking because not only do I need to take the notes, but I need to be present so that when somebody asks what I missed, I don’t have to say and rumble through all of my notes to understand. So those are super important. When it comes to hard skills, understanding that you can’t speak to anything you don’t really know too much about because you’ll lose value. So if a creative comes to you and they’re asking you about PowerPoint and they’re asking you about outlook and you don’t know it, either get to know it or again, when I mentioned earlier, when you speak with your manager, understand what those expectations are even when you’re being hired. But soft skills, soft skills are above all everything. When people say like personality hires and stuff like that, when it comes to project management, you are the personality of the account. You are usually the first person that people will hear when it comes to those stressful calls, you are usually that calm. When people are like, oh, I’m going on vacation and I don’t know all of these things, you are usually their psychologist and you don’t really have one for yourself, right? So soft skills are understanding your value, understanding that there are going to be things where you’re going to need to be understanding and be able to go with the flow and be flexible within being rigid. It’s important for that. But also make sure that you take care of yourself because what happens is you don’t want to burn out your project manager. Also Right. By having them make sure that the creative team is good, but also making sure that your partner is good or even your whole team is good. So although it is super important to have a project manager and I mentioned to have somebody senior, when it comes to a smaller agency, there needs to be that conversation of expectations at the beginning so that you don’t just bring this person in and say, wave your wand and make the magic happen. No. What is it? Here is my problem. Here is where there is a void, and I need a project manager or an operations person. How can you come in and show me your value? That’s, that’s your first question.

Drew McLellan [00:44:46]:
If there was a skills test, well, what would the skills test measure?

Danielle McCier [00:44:53]:
Patience, organization, attention to detail. And I would, I would honestly say personality.

Drew McLellan [00:45:06]:
Yeah, that. Emotional intelligence.

Danielle McCier [00:45:08]:
Intelligence, absolutely. Yes.

Drew McLellan [00:45:10]:
Yeah, yeah. Danielle, this has been a great conversation. Thank you for, thank you for sharing your expertise and reminding everybody what a critical role this is for our agencies. And I think more so than ever before.

Danielle McCier [00:45:23]:
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Drew McLellan [00:45:25]:
It just becomes such a critical place for true leadership, true courage to have the hard conversations. And in a lot of ways, I think of the project manager as the agency’s protector. It’s their job to protect the agency’s reputation. Is their job to protect the agency’s profitability? Is their job to protect everybody on the team, to make sure that no one is being sort of overburdened to the extent that, you know, just because you’ve got a really strong account person, that the poor creatives are kind of taking in the shorts, or because you have a really strong creative director, the account service people can’t get what they need. So I do see them as sort of of the, that in, they’re in the middle and they’re just protecting everything about what’s good about the agency. And that is not, that’s not a small role or an unimportant role.

Danielle McCier [00:46:16]:
It’s not, it’s not. I, I, I, I kind of glorify us as an engine, and not a lot of people agree with it, but I feel like we’re, we’re, we’re the engine and we, you are the one who is making sure that all the parts are correct and that the, that the car is able to get on the, the expressway or get to where it’s going.

Drew McLellan [00:46:34]:
Yeah, I think that’s right. If folks want to reach out to you, if they want to find out more about your book, all of those things, what’s the best way for them to reach out?

Danielle McCier [00:46:43]:
Yes, yes. Please visit my website. It’s wrangling chaos.org there you’ll find information about myself, information about the book, and even some free templates that can work as agency truths for your agency.

Drew McLellan [00:46:59]:
Beautiful. Thank you so much for being with us and sharing your expertise.

Danielle McCier [00:47:03]:
Thank you, Drew. Appreciate you and everybody else.

Drew McLellan [00:47:06]:
You bet. All right, guys, so here’s what I want you to do off of this episode. Regardless of your size, whether you have a project manager or not, I want you to ask yourself, who in your agency is the agency’s protector? Who is the one who protects the profit? Who protects keeping the clients happy by delivering on time and on budget? Who protects the internal team by making sure that they have enough work? Because honestly, not having enough work is as stressful as having too much work and that everything is sort of balanced and that everyone is treated fairly and that everyone is reminded all the time. We have this common goal, which is to delight the client and to be a profitable business. So whether you have a project manager or not, who’s the protector, and if you don’t have a protector or agency owners, if you’re like, I’m the protector, I want you to really look in the mirror and ask if that’s really what you are and if that’s the right role for you. And if not, perhaps thinking about maybe is it time for me to take the leap and think about this position? By the way, a lot of people think a project manager is not billable. That is absolutely not correct. They should be the most billable person in your agency because everything they do touches a client’s work. So happy to have a conversation with you about how you do that with timesheets, but it is not an unbillable or non billable position. They are super billable. So I want you to ask yourself that question and then come up with an answer for yourself because I think it’s really critical. You know, this is 2026 is proving to be as challenging in some ways as 2025 it was. And so you need to protect your people and you need to protect your profit and you need to keep the clients that you have and keep them happy. And so this is one of the roles that helps you do that. So that’s your homework. Before I let you go, want to quickly say thanks to our friends at White Label iq. As I mentioned to you at the top of the show, they’re the presenting sponsor of this podcast and we are super grateful to them. So white labeliq.com ami and I never, ever want to end the show without reminding you that I know that I get to do this because you keep listening and so I get to meet interesting people. I get to keep learning and I am grateful for that. So I know how busy you are and that we get to hang out together for an hour every week. That’s a privilege for me. And you know when I see you at the summit or I see you at a workshop and you come up and tell me about an episode that kind of stuck with you or got you to do something different, super gratifying for me. So thank you for listening. I’m coming back next week. Week. I hope you will too. And in the meantime, have a great week. Talk to you soon.

Danyel McLellan [00:49:49]:
Come back next week for another episode designed to help you build a stronger, more stable and sustainable agency. Check out our workshops, coaching and consulting packages and other professional development opportunities at agencymanagementinstitute.com.