How to Solve Tough Problems, with Tim Sanders.

Speaker 1:

If you’re going to take a risk of running an agency, shouldn’t you get the benefits too? Welcome to Agency Management Institute’s Build a Better Agency podcast, presented by HubSpot. We’ll show you how to build an agency that can scale and grow with better clients, invested employees and best of all, more money to the bottom line. Bringing his 25 plus years of experience as both an agency owner and agency consultant to you, please welcome your host, Drew McLellan.

Drew McLellan:

Hey there everybody, Drew McLellan here with another episode of Build a Better Agency. Today’s topic is all around sales, and you’re going to love the conversation. I promise you, there are going to be some ideas that you have not thought about, or at least not in this way before. So, I’m excited to challenge your thinking and to inspire you to explore different ways to create new business sales. Let me tell you a little bit about my guest, many of you are going to be familiar with him.

Tim Sanders is a veteran sales marketing and HR leader with expertise in sales collaboration, relationship management, leadership, and customer experience design. For almost 20 years, he has been closing deals and leading B2B sales teams to victory using his dealstorming methodology, which I promise we’re to going to dig into. He was an early member of Mark Cuban’s Broadcast.com, and then later was CSO at Yahoo during their best days. Many of you will be familiar with Tim. He wrote the best selling book, Love Is the Killer App, a few years ago.

Today he consults with leading companies on how to drain their pipeline, secure major accounts and beat the competition through teamwork. Financial times calls his latest book, which I just finished called, Dealstorming: The Secret Weapon That Can Solve Your Toughest Sales Challenges as a force multiplier, and I highly recommend the book. It was a great read, lots of great examples and really practical, tangible tools that you can use, which you know I love. Tim gives some unconventional insights in the book that just may get you to the finish line on your next big selling opportunity. Tim, welcome to the podcast.

Tim Sanders:

Drew, nice to be with you.

Drew McLellan:

So, you have been a sales guy from the get go, was that your schooling and your upbringing, or did you come by this profession through circumstance?

Tim Sanders:

I stumbled into selling early. I had a firework stand in the farm community I lived in as a teenager and it was slash sales and entrepreneur. So, Drew it’s in my blood, it always has been. My first sales job when I was still in high school was wrapping a radio station, KKQQ FM. I’d go door to door, I’d pitch. If the shop owners were interested, I’d convince somebody at the station to make me a demo on a cassette. They’d make it on the Vox card. Right? Then you’d load it onto the little cassette player, you’d play it for the client.

Drew McLellan:

You’re aging us, Tim.

Tim Sanders:

If they liked it, all I had to do was pick up a check and hopefully when we ran the promotion, people walked into their store and that was my first sales job. And then I went on to sell TV and then I went on to sell internet. So, advertising, marketing and sales have been in my blood since the late 1970s.

Drew McLellan:

So, in your actual pursuit of sales, I think is where you decided to combine two ideas, the idea of deal making and brainstorming. Can you talk a little bit about where the origin of Dealstorming came from, and give the listeners an idea of what you mean by that phrase?

Tim Sanders:

Absolutely. So it’s 1997, I remember it like it was yesterday, and I’m working for Mark Cuban. The company at the time is called AudioNet. He changed the name of the company to Broadcast.com the following year in preparation for the IPO. But it’s 1997, we’re still a relatively small startup. I’m in a division called Business Services where we sold audio and video streaming, live or on demand as a business service say to corporate communication or for product launch, et cetera.

So, market hired this new VP of sales who came from the technology sector from the West Coast. And this guy, his name was Stan. He was a big deal guy. He knew how to go out and do million dollar, multi-million dollar deals. So he was talking to us about how to up our game, because at the time, quite honestly, all of us were pursuing really small, really easy deals because when you tried to pitch something, six figures are bigger, it got really complicated for a lot of reasons. So we’re sitting up in the crow’s nest. That’s what we called the area where we met, and Stan’s like, “When we go bigger …” Because we have to. He says, “You’re going to get stuck.”

He says, “And when you get stuck, don’t go down alone.” He says, “Grab a few people that care about the outcome, grab somebody who knows about why you’re stuck and make it rain.” He said if you’re stuck on a technical issue, go grab Bobby in the broadcast booth. If it’s a pricing issue, go grab Todd in the finance group. He said, “But whatever you do, don’t try to do it on your own. No one gets credit for losing on their own.”

When he is talking about all of this, two concepts collide in my mind at the same time, Drew. The traditional brainstorming idea, which I had studied when I was younger and deal making. The two coming together, creativity for the purpose of new business, I just said out loud to my buddy, “Wow, dealstorming cool stuff.” And that’s where it began. Where this is different than brainstorming, which by the way, was invented by Alex Osborne, founder of what we now know as BBDO, it’s different, because what Stan’s talking about is a very project oriented, let’s find the next play, not a list of ideas approach.

And starting that day, when we got stuck, I would build a dealstorming team around the challenge, and we got better and better and better at bringing in people that weren’t in the sales function. I got to tell you, not just at Broadcast.com and Yahoo, but for the next 15 years, I saw it produce a dramatic lift in our ability to close deals and to close them faster.

Drew McLellan:

I love the line in the book that talks about that sales is a team sport, and that’s really in essence of what you’re talking about. Right?

Tim Sanders:

Absolutely. We have to understand the difference between collaboration and cooperation. Think about it this way, Drew. You’re at a restaurant and you give your order to the server. He turns it into the kitchen. It moves over to the pre-cook. It moves to the cook. The cook puts the food on the counter under the heat lamps. Someone expedites that to the server, the server puts it on your table. Is that teamwork? No, that’s line work.

Teamwork occurs when the server is too busy to bring you the food right away, so either another server or a bus boy or the expediter sees that, and they bring the food to the customer while it’s hot. That’s teamwork. Teamwork is the surprising work we do when we notice that somebody else is either strained at their job or incapable of doing their job in that moment.

Drew McLellan:

Okay. How does all of this … I get the examples you gave in terms of where you were working, big, big companies. So you had lots of people to go tap on the shoulder and bring into the process. How does it work? So most of my listeners probably have 200 employees or less, and a lot of them have 20 employees or less. Especially in the agency space, because I know you’ve spent a lot of time working with agencies and talking to agencies, how does this translate specifically to that industry?

Tim Sanders:

Well, let me give you … and I’ve worked with a lot of marketing solution companies, whether they’re ad agencies, whether they’re media companies, I’ve worked with a lot of them on dealstorming. So, let’s first talk about what that means. When you build dealstorm team, the magic number is three to four disciplines. I call it perspectives. Right? Three to four ways of seeing the world. There’s the new business lead, there might be a creative lead and there might be an account planning lead. I’m just making this up to illustrate this. So the magic number is three or four.

Drew McLellan:

Yep.

Tim Sanders:

We found that when you get four perspectives in the room, you increase by 300% your chance that you walk out of that meeting with the next play that somehow advances the deal. Okay? Now let’s say that your shop is too small to be able to produce those four perspectives. I see this all the time. The secret then is to work with your peer groups or to work with your key business partners and have them join your collaboration team.

I’ve been involved in almost 200 dealstorms over the last decade as a consultant, and in many of those situation, external parties were key collaborators and they brought fresh perspectives to the table. In the book I use the example of a small architectural firm here, where I live in Las Vegas, they’re called LGA. And they were working on a piece of new business at Opportunity Village, which is for the intellectually disabled. And it’s a very special facility, and LGA’s expertise had been visitor centers for years and years, but they were local, and they knew the people at Opportunity Village, but they also knew that they couldn’t figure out how to win that bid and come up with the right approach.

So, Craig Galati, who’s one of the founders of LGA, he had met this architect in Baltimore. Her name is Jane, and she was part of a peer group, just like you guys have peer groups for agencies. So, he and her had talked once at a previous meeting and he knew that she had an expertise in these types of facilities for intellectually disabled, and they had agreed that where they could, they would help each other. So he picks the phone up, tells her about the situation. She’s excited to work with him on the bid and she’s not expecting a cut. This is a very good thing for her too, and they collaborated.

She even came to Las Vegas and participated in the pitch. They won the deal. Since then, Craig’s been able to return the favor to her, giving her great advice when she’s pitching visitor type centers or tourist and destination centers in her part of the world. And what Craig calls her is a competimate. That’s technically a competitor because she’s also an architect, but she doesn’t bump in to him in his market. So they’re actually able to work together as business mates and actually expand the pie.

So I see this happen all the time. So, as an agency, you can talk to other agency leads, and the key here, Drew, is to have a standing deal that, this is my expertise and I’ll lend it to you when you need it. And so as you talk to people in your peer groups, find out what their expertise is. Someone might say, “I specialize in working with Hispanic markets.” Someone else might be able to say, “I specialize in digital subcategory, native advertising, subcategory, video production.” I’m just making this up, but that’s a specific area of expertise.

So as you have these conversations, you’re able to say, “Great, I’m your person for Hispanic market penetration, you’re my person for native advertising request.” And that is a way for you to scale beyond the size of your shop. Let me say this, I think this approach gives smaller shops a winning edge. Here’s why, when you are collaborating as a small organization and someone has out of the box idea, but you’re able to verify the assumptions and it looks like the next play, if you’re at a small organization, you don’t have to go to corporate communications and legal and the founding partners and all these people in a bureaucracy to get approval, you can just do it, and you have the agility to adopt innovations in the deal making process that a big agency or a big company does not possess.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. So true. As I’m listening to you, I’m thinking for those listeners who are a part of an AMI owner peer group, they have a natural built in dealstorming team because they’re surrounded by 12 to 25 agency owners who are in non-competitive markets, but who they know and trust, in some cases they’ve known each other for more than a decade. That would be a natural thing. I was all also thinking about for the agencies that are listening that aren’t a part of that, even reaching out to media partners or production partners or other people in their local market, who again, could bring a different perspective and a fresh eye to the conversation, that would be a solution for them as well.

Tim Sanders:

Well, and here’s how I think about those media partners. It’s like, the difference between working with one of your media partners that you end up getting checks written to versus working with another agency lead who might be busy. The difference is like ham and eggs. The chicken is involved and the pig is committed. Okay? Your media partners want you to win the new business because they feel like that can influence you making part of the specification for the program. Right? So they really want to help you, and they have a different set of perspectives.

Here, Drew, I want to pause, and I think for agencies, this is really important to understand, when I say perspective, it’s important to point out why it’s important to have diverse perspectives in the room. A perspective is a story that you tell yourself about what succeeds and what fails, what you can’t do and what you can always do. Okay? That’s what a perspective is. It’s that story about the world, The beauty is, when you think of different disciplines, either inside an agency, different types of agency or the difference between an agency and a media partner, they all have different perspectives.

I think of it this way. When people walk into the room, they say, “Here are the constraints, the things we cannot do. Here’s our greatest hits and best practices. Things we know that work.” And here’s what I’ve learned. Companies or agencies, or even media types, they don’t become obsolete. What becomes obsolete are the constraints and the best practices they do business based on every single day.

Drew McLellan:

That’s a really good distinction.

Tim Sanders:

I can tell you … Right? That’s what goes obsolete. I mean, I’ll give you a classic example here. When I was at Yahoo, this is years ago, right before I left, these two guys from Google, they had a company called IBlogger, and Google bought it. One of them, Ev, comes over and shows us a demo about this new little thing they’d built that leveraged short messaging service in Asia, 140 characters to enable people to talk to each other.

I remember that Jerry Yang in the meeting turns to me and a couple of other guys and said, “User generated, it’ll never work. We bought E Group three years ago for a half billion dollars. Everybody stopped using it after two or three sessions, this thing won’t work. And then, so we sent the founders of Twitter out of the room, even though for very little money, we could have owned at least 50% and had that as our social media lynchpin.”

Drew, that’s when I realized it was time for me to leave. Right? Because the constraints that I did business with made me as a decision maker, obsolete, what I really needed was one of our engineers in the room, a 20 something who would say, “Yeah, we’ve been using something like that on our projects because we love it. We’ve been using a hack workaround with Yahoo messenger.” If someone with a different perspective in the room would’ve had a different way of seeing the world that would’ve helped us envision the future.

And I think it’s so important because of how fast media is changing and how fast the things that work stop working and the new things that are working great failed yesterday. That’s why it’s so important for us to have diverse perspectives, whether it’s generational diversity, disciplinary diversity, or even where we sit in the value chain of marketing solutions diversity, it just enables you to be more agile and to embrace the future faster.

Drew McLellan:

So, as I’m listening to you, I’m thinking, for a lot of agencies, they brainstorm and I’m doing air quotes, which of course you can’t see over the podcast, but they brainstorm by pulling different people from within the agency. So, even though they may have different perspectives, I may be an art person, or I may be a media person, or I may be a whatever, we all have the common shared perspective of the agency in which we exist. So, would you recommend that for agencies, even if they had enough bodies in the shop to create the three or four perspectives around a topic, is it more advantageous to them to invite outsiders into the conversation to give them a broader perspective and a fresher view of the problem?

Tim Sanders:

It goes both ways, on the one hand, if it’s a very strategic opportunity and you really feel like you’re stuck, I think having at least one external partner is going to really help you make sure that you’re not operating under a false constraint. I think that’s the guarantee there. But one of the things I also point out in the book is that, the more perspectives you bring in the room, especially the more they’re different, the harder it is for you to run that meeting effectively. Right?

Because unlike brainstorming where we’re just trying to come up with a list of ideas, dealstorming is about everyone agreeing they can live with the next play and being willing to do joint work on it, even if it’s not their job. When you bring in different perspectives, guess what else you bring in? You bring in different agendas. You bring in grievances from three years ago, you bring in a person that has different needs than you do. As a meeting leader, your number one job is to get everyone from me to we, you’re not trying to necessarily build consensus that everybody loves the idea, but you are making sure that everyone can live with the idea. So when you go wider, it does get a little bit tougher.

We did some research on this idea. I talked about the magic number, and what we learned is that, when you add a second perspective to a meeting, your chance of finding the next play goes up 50%. When you add a third perspective, it goes up a 100%. When you add the fourth perspective, you’re 300% more likely than the baseline to walk out of that meeting with the next play that has some workability to it. But what we also learned is when you go to the fifth perspective, it drops back down to less than a 100%. When you add the sixth perspective, you’re no better off than when you had two.

And then after that, Drew, it’s a goat rodeo. So there is a magic point you want to measure. When we think about the difference between brainstorming and dealstorming, dealstorming, you’re building a team and you have to be very strategic and you have to ask yourself who has the biggest stake in the outcome or the process, like how we sell, who has a big stake in that? That might be someone in your delivery team that really cares about the outcome. It might be someone over in your finance group that really cares about whether this is even going to be a profitable response to an RFP.

It could be a partner who’s really depending on you to win to utilize their solutions. Right? So, you find these stakeholders, think of them as your blockers and tacklers, and then you add one or two at the most experts on why you’re stuck. Okay? So as a meeting owner, you got to do a lot of work in your mind before you even build your team. It’s so different than brainstorming.

When I was at Discovery, we used to do that where a guy would walk out and he’d be working on a piece of news, he’d go, “You and you and you and you and you and you receptionist, everybody in conference room six.” You go into the room and there’s the guy with the flip charts. That’s why I call it a goat rodeo. There’s no rhyme and reason as to why people are in the room.

But when you’ve thought this through, and you’ve said, “This is a big problem. I’m going to qualify the collaboration opportunity. Right? It’s big enough for us to build the team around, and we’re really stuck.” Then you’re really being strategic. Who should I invite? How many should I have in the room? How many can I manage? And then you have to also ask yourself, “Are there personalities going to gel together?” Because the best ideas I’ve seen in dealstorming are the combination of two okay ideas. So, people have to really be able to work together for a dealstorm to produce the next play.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. So true. But that’s fascinating that there is a point of diminishing returns.

Tim Sanders:

There is.

Drew McLellan:

Be mindful of how many perspectives you put in the room.

Tim Sanders:

Right. So the key then is, make sure you’ve got more than one perspective. That’s what we do know. So you don’t just have new business mindset in the room. That’s the key.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. I have so many more questions that I want to ask you, but before we get into those, let’s take a quick pause and we’ll come right back. One of my favorite parts of AMI are our live workshops. I love to teach, I love to spend two days immersed in a topic with either agency leaders, agency owners, or AEs in our AE Bootcamps. But most of all, I love sharing what I’ve learned from other agencies from 30 years in the business and all the best practices that we teach.

If you have some interest in those workshops, they range from everything, from money matters, which is all about your financial health of your agency to best management practices of agency owners, to new business, to AE Bootcamps and a plethora of other topics. Go check out the list and the schedule at agencymanagementinstitute.com\livetraining. Okay, let’s get back to the show. So, I want to dig into the idea of how you make these, what you call the magic meetings. So Tim, tell us how you define a magic meeting, and then how do you make that happen as the facilitator-

Tim Sanders:

Absolutely.

Drew McLellan:

… of the dealstorm meeting.

Tim Sanders:

So, when you’re working on a piece of new business, you’re going to have a series of meetings that solve a series of challenges, and a magic meeting is a meeting where you walk out of the room with the next play against the challenge. Okay? A horrible meeting is when you walk out of the room with a conclusion, “Thanks a lot, we’ll have another meeting.” Okay? That’s not a magic meeting. So the secret then is that your meeting produces a specific solution, everyone can live with and commitments to do work on delivering that solution immediately. That’s what you’re really going for.

And the secret to magic meeting, there’s a couple of them actually, the first secret to a magic meeting is that you send out a deal brief at least 48 hours before a meeting. Now I didn’t come up with this idea, was actually-

Drew McLellan:

Well, that sounds like being prepared in advance. That’s crazy talk for agencies.

Tim Sanders:

Absolutely. Oh, it’s crazy. It’s crazy. But you want to do that, Tom Kelley ideal, wonderful consultancy. They’ve invented so many products, whether you’re thinking about like the Palm Pilot or pump toothpaste. Okay? So, Tom Kelley once was talking to me when I was at Yahoo about this whole dealstorming thing and he smiled and he quoted Louis Pasteur, “Chance favors the prepared mind.” He introduced to me the idea that incubation is the most important part of creativity, and giving people time to have clarity about their key assumptions will make them less defensive in a meeting when you’re actually going to have a debate.

Because unlike brainstorming in a dealstorm meeting, you debate the quality of this person’s assumptions around their idea. You do. So here’s the way you do this. Let’s say you’re going to have a dealstorm meeting, and it’s about a really important piece of new business or an account review. All right? Schedule the meeting for Tuesday at 10:00 AM. Make sure that you send the deal brief out Friday by lunch.

And the deal brief, Drew, it’s basically a summary of the opportunity, the influence map of who you’re selling to, what you’ve tried so far and how it did or didn’t work. And maybe some information about that prospect or about that customer in terms of what they’re doing in the market or what external challenges they might have. And at the end of the deal brief, you give a specific thinking assignment to that attendee. Okay?

If you value their time enough to come to the meeting, value them enough to think about their stake in the outcome or their expertise and give them an assignment. I want you, for example, to really kick some holes in my assumption about our root cause of the problem, why we’re stuck, or I want you to tell me if anybody’s missing from the team, or I’d like you to do some research on some potential solutions you can have in hand when you walk in the door. If you give everyone this deal brief and you give them a thinking assignment and something to process, and then you hassle them later on Friday, please read this before the end of the day, what happens is, over the course of the weekend, their subconscious mind goes to work on the problem.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. It just percolates.

Tim Sanders:

And when they walk into … It does, man, it kind of percolates, because it’s like, we’re like, especially in our space, right, we’re all creative. We’re very analytical but we’re also associative. So we chew on that problem like a dog chews on the bone. We might put some real work against it on Monday. But look, when we walk into the room on Tuesday, we have ideas. But more importantly, we understand our assumptions behind the ideas. And what I’ve experienced is that, when people are in a room and they’re talking about an idea, if they haven’t had time to know why they believe in the idea, that’s where the conflict comes from. So anyway, deal brief, critical. You should never have a big meeting without a brief.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. I love the idea of giving them a specific assignment. I think that a lot of people, if they do a brief, it’s just basically an information download, but you’re right. It doesn’t give them something to chew on specifically consciously or subconsciously.

Tim Sanders:

Right. I got to say this too, is that, for the problem owner that does create more work, but it also prevents you from putting together the justice league. Right? You’re not going to have 15 people if you’ve got to write 15 custom briefs, you’re going to do four or five because that’s what you feel like you could manage. But anyway, when you begin this meeting, it’s really important for you to lay out some ground rules, and these are, again, a little bit different than brainstorming.

So, the first ground rule is ideas can come from anywhere, but we must make sure that everyone in the room doesn’t require expertise, merely vetted assumptions, because I’ve learned that some of the best ideas come from outside of the expertise or outside of the discipline, because you don’t know which you don’t know. The second idea is that we’re going to act on facts and we’re going to research hunches. That really allows you to move forward in a meeting, and it keeps like say a partner or someone senior from just anchoring around a gut feeling that everybody just has to trust them on. We’re going to act on facts.

That allows us to not just produce the next play, but produce the next play that likely might work. Then the third idea is for everyone to stay on agenda. In a minute, I’ll talk about what that agenda looks like for a good meeting. Then the fourth one is no distractions, turn off your devices and no side conversations. You want to lay those ground rules out, respecting everyone in the room, but that’s really important. The last thing I’ll say about magic meeting management is that when you think about how the meeting lays out in terms of the agenda, after you’ve done the ground rules and you’ve introduced Drew and why he’s here, let’s say you’ve only taken five to seven minutes to do that.

The next 15 minutes of this meeting should be a debate about why you’re stuck. See, the problem in most of your brainstorming meetings is that, we all take like gospel whatever the leader says the problem is. We can’t get a new piece of business because we can’t be competitive with this other shop that’s offering this new widget, and that’s our problem. So let’s brainstorm how we’re going to solve that problem. You need to be willing as an owner of the problem to have a 15 minute debate about what the real cause is.

And I’ve seen this in the marketing world where you walk into the room and you say, “We’re going to have to find a way to cut our bid by 250.” And all of a sudden in the debate space, someone with a fresh perspective says, “No, you need to prove that our rich media solution is worth more than the display solution because that’s where the push back’s coming on the 250. Ford’s got enough money. Trust me, we haven’t demonstrated value.” Then all of a sudden, Drew, the conversation shifts to an entirely new solution, because if you don’t find the root cause of why you’re stuck, it’s like whack-a-mole.

You launch an X play and the client still doesn’t move because you haven’t addressed the root cause. So, 15 minutes you go after root cause, and then you spend the rest of the meeting working on the solution. And when you think about how you find a solution to a problem or you solve a root cause, I want everyone listening, think about it like the aperture of a camera lens. In the very beginning, this is an open discussion. You say, “I have an idea, and as the moderator, I ask and what is your key assumption?” And we write it down. Let’s do this, key assumption is this. And we go around the room in the opening section and just collect those with no debate.

Then we enter the narrowing piece of the puzzle and say, “For the next section then, we begin to talk about assumptions.” And as a problem owner, you’re looking for the ability to combine ideas. Because again, I’m telling you, two out of three of your great ideas or two average ideas pushed together, they kind of solve each other’s inefficiencies. Then you move to the final, and that is the most narrowing where you’re choosing the next play, and that’s where you as a group adopt one of the ideas in the room, unless no one has an idea with factual assumptions. In that situation, it may not be magic, but at least you’ve got a solution you can go do research on. If that’s the case, Drew, I’d always say, have a backup.

So again, as a problem owner, ideally you’re walking out of the room with the next play everyone agrees to do work on, but as it might happen, you might be walking out of the room with the number one finalist to be researched and a backup plan in case the number one finalist doesn’t vet, and that is a magic meeting.

Drew McLellan:

About how long should that magic meeting last? You’ve got your seven minute of set up, you got your 15 minute of really digging into and defining the problem. And then what should the remainder of the meeting time [inaudible 00:32:11] is there a point where you’ve just been in the room together too long?

Tim Sanders:

Well, a done deal is not one meeting, it’s a lot of problems solved. So when you build the dealstorm team, they’re not just going to meet once, we find that on the average, they’re going to meet more than four times. Right? So you want to make sure that people still come to your meetings. So, keep it short. Right? I like to aim at a culture where you can do this in an hour. In the very beginning, I suggest an hour and a half. I don’t like anything longer than an hour and a half, because it just moves slowly, and it’s easy for us to get off agenda when you’ve got all that time and you take too much time getting started when you’ve got too much time on your agenda.

So, my advice is, in the beginning, structure them for 90 minutes, but if you can make them only one hour and be super conscious of time, time is your brand as a meeting manager. If we finish the meeting on time and walk out with the next play, especially if we do that in just an hour, everyone in the room is like, “Wow, that rocked, that’s the best return on attention I’ve ever gotten with an hour.” That’s really your goal. And by the way [crosstalk 00:33:20]

Drew McLellan:

Just having the agenda on the front end and giving them something else to think about is going to set you up to be more successful than most meetings.

Tim Sanders:

Absolutely. It’s a huge time saver. I’ll give you one other little piece of advice. The secret to a meeting that ends on time is a meeting that starts on time. And years and years ago-

Drew McLellan:

[crosstalk 00:33:39]

Tim Sanders:

I read this … Yeah. Years ago, I read this book called the Secrets of Facilitation by Michael Wilkinson. It’s a really cool book on running these kind of meetings. He had this little trick where, when he scheduled a meeting, especially if it had like more than four people, there would be something called gathering times. So I would say, “Tuesday, we’re all going to get together at 9:50, that’s 10 minutes until 10:00. I’m going to have refreshments. We’re going to catch up on stuff, and then we’re going to start the actual meeting at 10:00, but everybody be here at gathering time, 9:50.”

And so, at 9:50, I show up, I’ve got my stuff, certain people show up and that gives me 10 minutes to go find out who’s missing and get them in the room, and then we start promptly at 10:00. I always love to use my cowbell app, like at the two minute warning, like at 9:58. So people know it’s time for us to go into the room and actually start the meeting. So gathering time is a nice hack. If you work in a culture where everybody shows up late for meetings.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, that’s a great idea. That’s a great idea. One of the things you talk about in the book is the perception that big deals are really big ideas realized, and that you took a different slant at that. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Tim Sanders:

Yeah. We keep thinking that a big deal is either this champion referral. It’s either this magic presentation, this one presentation you make that everybody just gasps at how wonderful it is or it’s this Glengarry Glen Ross close, and it’s not, especially in our space. I think about it like this.

I met Ed Catmull at Pixar Entertainment, years ago, we were speaking at a conference together and I was gushing to him about Toy Story. His creative director, John Lasseter, is a genius. I said. He came up with this idea. First movie in the box, tried it out as a short video at a trade show. He wrote a script about a boy in his toys coming of age story told from the toys point of view. And so I’m talking to Ed about what a genius Lasseter is. And Ed interrupts me and says, “John’s idea was a troublemaker. It showed up as an ugly baby. It was a highly problematic in every turn, technology, funding, our ability to write a decent story.”

He said, “In fact, on Black Friday, nine months into production, Disney, our distribution partner, they shut the movie down.” He said, “I thought it would never get made.” And I’m like, “What happened?” He said, “We built the brain trust. We brought together unlikely people like puppeteers and wood workers and adult psychologists and partners from son who make servers.” He said, “What I learned is that, Toy Story wasn’t a big idea or a great idea, or a creative breakthrough.” Toy Story, he said, was a thousand problems solved.

And it hit me, is like, when we pursue a piece of business, that’s an idea, but it’s not a creative idea, it’s a goal. So we have this opportunity to go win a big piece of business with Walmart online, and that’s the goal, but we’re going to have so many challenges in front of us at every stage of the process from getting to the right people, figuring out the win-win deal, convincing them they’ve got to make a change in agency, and that we’re the best one, and then moving through the contract process, you’re going to have multiple challenges at every step of the way.

So when you land a new piece of business, what you’ve done is you’ve figured out a way to solve problems faster than the rate of change at your prospect. Somebody leaves the company, they get bought by somebody else, a new competitor comes out of nowhere and takes the business away. So, I believe that rapid problem solving is the secret to new business development, especially in markets like advertising and marketing solutions and creative design.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. As I’m listening to you, I’m thinking about all the agencies that put a lot of pressure on themselves to walk in with that one big idea, and this is a completely different way of looking at it.

Tim Sanders:

I think it’s a good starting point. Right? When you walk into the room, I know that your prospect or your client, they want to feel like they got good return on attention, that you did your homework and that you gave them something provocative. But that doesn’t mean they’re going to write you a check. It doesn’t mean they’re going to fire their existing partner. So we have to distinguish between giving good ROI and actually progressing, or as I call it contracting, getting those first set of agreements that move as closer and closer and closer to the end game.

So I do think while it’s important to have a creative idea on the table to show your commitment and your respect, let’s not be so wed to it that we think that’s going to be the winning play. If we go into the room a little bit more agile in our thinking than we’re able to pivot, we’re able to combine, and frankly, we’re just able to move through the process faster than most of our competitors. And again, that’s the secret to success.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. Yeah. It’s so true. I know that the book really outlines the process of dealstorming and it goes into a lot of detail, but one of the aspects that I thought was most interesting, and I’m thinking that maybe this is how we wrap up our conversation is, you talk about the characters that are involved in sales and you identify the hacker, the chef, and the artist. Can you tell us a little bit about your thinking behind that and then describing what each of those characters are and their role in the process?

Tim Sanders:

Absolutely. So think of these as innovation templates. I remember one time we were working on a big promotional idea for Pepsi, this is when I was at Yahoo, and I walked into the room to have my dealstorm. And one of my buddies, Bill Milton Berger, he ran the promotions group. He came from an agency background. So he had his feet up on the table. He’s rubbing his hands together. And he says, “So what are we doing today, Tim?” He said, “Are we cheffing it up? Are we going to be an illustrator today? What are we doing?” And I was looking at him. I said, “Well, we’re dealstorming.” He goes, “No, no, no, no. Tell me, what’s my motivation. Who am I here, and what problem are we trying to tackle?”

And that was really interesting to me because I always believed that having the right perspective was the key to seeing the right solution. So over the course of years, I developed three different personas. Think of these as creative hats you put on for a situation, and these three personas can solve a prospecting problem. They can solve a deal creation problem where you’re trying to figure out that combination of elements that give you the winning hand. And it can also solve issues where you’re trying to convince the customer to change, and you’re the best solution.

So the three are the hacker, the chef and the artist, I’ll talk about in briefly. The hacker is important when you’re in the beginning or the end of the sales process. When you’re in the beginning, when you’re prospecting, you’re just trying to make contact with the right people. A lot of you listening know that it’s harder than ever to prospect, you can’t cold call anymore. It’s harder than ever to get referrals. No one answers your emails.

So the hacker mentality is, you’re going to go where no one’s imagine you’ve gone before. You’re going to take a surprising route to get somewhere, because that’s what the hacker does. The hacker outsmarts IT security and takes a different way to get to the server. But by the way, a hacker is also an innovative mindset. Facebook’s corporate address is one hacker way. That’s how core hacking is to their culture.

So as hacker then, you might say, “Well, you know what I’m going to do is I’m going to go through LinkedIn and I’m going to take this advertising director and I’m going to engage with some of their content. If they put out a really smart piece of creative, I’m going to like it, and then later I’m going to comment adding value to the conversation with a link to a study I read from the 4A’s and then over time I can send that person an InMail with one of my InMail credits and they’ll actually respond because I have already been interacting with him in B2B they now call that social selling.

If you Google social selling, you’ll see that some of the winning sales of organizations today took the exact approach I just described as opposed to lobbying in a bunch of phone calls or direct mail or email marketing, that’s just a hack. That’s just a surprising approach that people haven’t thought of before. I divulge a lot of these in the book. A great hack is to take a social cause that a prospect cares about and participate in that social cause, because it puts you shoulder to shoulder with key decision makers.

So the hacker mentality’s really important when you’re stuck on prospecting, and sometimes with some of my clients, I find the hacker mentality is really effective when you get stuck in the contract phase, and you’re towards the finish line, you might do a hack, or you might say, “There’s no contract.” We sell a piece of vital technology that if they don’t pay the bill, we can turn off, and that solves the problem. Then all of a sudden you’ve taken a very hacker-ish approach to how you accomplish new business and your competitors who are stuck in, we need a contract mode. That’s a real competitive advantage. That’s the first persona.

The second persona is the persona of the chef. The chef knows how to create a combination of ingredients and plate them and present them in a way that are delicious. And what’s important for you to think about is that, when you’re putting together a proposal, usually you’re having to combine a variety of elements. Right? You’re combining products and processes and partners to produce a measurable outcome that aligns with the objectives in the RFP. And you have to think like a chef. What does that mean? Do you have to have intense curiosity about what you can put on your shelf?

You should have a super deep understanding of everything your agency can do, as well as every capability your partners can deliver. You should have some instinct about how the personalities might gel together later on the delivery side, you should also have a pretty good instinct about what kind of tastes and flavor profiles your prospector client has. If you have this way of thinking, you won’t just be pushing together a bunch of bullet points into the deal, you’ll be actually plating something that you know in fact will work. That’s the chef.

The final persona is the artist. Usually you adopt this when you’re in the convinced level of the deal. Right? You know what you want to sell to them, but you’ve got to convince them to make a change or you’ve got to convince them that your idea is the winning idea. Now, here’s the idea, the artist doesn’t tell you, they show you. Ty Bennett, he’s an expert on storytelling. He says he always loves to make this quote. “Don’t tell us about the woman who screamed, bring her on stage and have her scream.”

So, the artist needs to bring to life key concepts. You might bring it to life with an analogy, an illustration and infographic or a compelling story. And in my experience, people will resist facts and figures, but they lean into stories and illustrations because it reduces abstraction. I’ll give you one example of where I’ve used this in a space in you’re going to completely understand. So after the .com crash in 2000, a lot of major advertisers like Procter and Gordon, because that’s what you call P&Gs advertising. Procter and Gordon and Coke and Nike and Disney, I don’t know, they must have had the meeting at the 4A’s or something.

But they all came back to us at once through our agency leads like Deutsch or FCB et cetera. And they said, “We’re not going to pay for impressions anymore. We only want to pay for clicks.” Dude, that was a nuclear bomb-

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, I bet.

Tim Sanders:

At places like Yahoo, because we were costing things like everybody else did on impressions, no one clicked on anything. So if you actually went to CPC, which they did for a while, or some people would say, they’re still on it. If you went to CPC, then basically you’d have to increase your media traffic by about 16,000% to keep your PNL in shape.

Drew McLellan:

That’s all.

Tim Sanders:

It was that bad.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. That’s all.

Tim Sanders:

That’s all.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Tim Sanders:

You’d have to really dramatically increase your inventory to make that work. So anyway, we were having a really hard time convincing the advertisers and the agencies that, “Look, these display ads placed through a program, programmatic, we now call it, they create purchase intention and we’re accentuating the freestanding insert placement by the brand, we’re accentuating the radio.” I mean, we used to say, Mel Karmazin at CBS used to say, look for it in the Sunday paper, it’s synergy, and we’d show them spreadsheets of purchase intention based on stuff we were doing in Nielsen and everybody push back.

They said, “Nope, nope, nope, nope. We’re going to pay for clicks. That’s addressable. That’s the beauty of your business.” Then finally, someone in my group thinking like an artist developed this really cool infographic and a story we begin to tell or an analogy, if you will, called the iceberg. We used to love to tell the story about the Titanic that felt like they couldn’t be sunken, what they saw was a manageable piece of ice floating on the water. Of course, when they hit it, it wasn’t that. What was it? It was an iceberg.

So when we would show this in a meeting, it would be a huge infographic. And what we would show is all the purchase intent, brand impression value, and 360 as Rex used to call it, that was accomplished, and all of that was below the water in terms of value.

Drew McLellan:

Interesting.

Tim Sanders:

And the clicks we’re just above the water. The way we would explain it is, we would say the constraints you buy on also constrain your distribution. If you guys stick with CPC and we’re not playing, then you’re going to miss everything below the water. And more importantly, your competitor who gets this will seize that opportunity, which by the way, a lot of brands did in those coming years, and they’ll take market share from you. So for you to stick with CPC, you have to be confident that you can hit that block of ice, and there’s nothing below the water.

I remember the first time we presented that at FCP, John [inaudible 00:47:50] who you might know from the agency. I remember he claps his hands and he is like, “This is exactly what I need for the next meeting.” Because we had armed him with a simple analogy that was backed up by data that enabled his clients to sell it forward. Right? Because you can’t sell forward a spreadsheet which you can sell forward, an illustration or a creative device like a metaphor or a powerful story. So when you’re in a dealstorm and you’re stuck [inaudible 00:48:17] just put that artist hat on and say, “How can we bring this to life and show them?”

And I’d also say that, for those of you in client review, or for those of you that are just trying to improve client satisfaction, stop sending the metric spreadsheets and start sending them infographics. Some of my media partners are starting to do that. Now with campaign reporting, it’s so much easier for the end customer or that ad manager to pass around in an organization, and it really differentiates the value you deliver.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. Even a dashboard, a visual dashboard is better than the Excel spreadsheet.

Tim Sanders:

Absolutely. People just fight facts and figures. Everything’s fuzzy math. Everything’s all made up, but the analogy somehow ring true.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. Great stuff. This has been fascinating, Tim. I’m so grateful that I know how busy you are. So I’m super grateful that you took the time to hang out with us for now hour and talk about the whole idea of dealstorming and how agencies can put this into play right away. If there’s one final thought that you might have for the small to mid-size agency owner, in terms of how to really leverage all of this, what might it be?

Tim Sanders:

Make this part of your culture, create a culture that when we get stuck, we build teams with surprising players, we lay down our arms and we find a way to work together. I mean, you can build that culture by how you hire looking for people that have a track record of volunteering for their other people’s problems. Or you can pursue the big ones. Right? The big wins. And you can take a look at an opportunity and say, “This is a make or break opportunity, and you win by collaboration.” Because I’ll tell you something, Drew, culture is a conversation led by leaders about how we do things here, and it’s punctuated with stories. We call them war stories. Okay?

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Tim Sanders:

So if you want to ignite a culture of collaboration, take that next big RFP or account review and build a wide team and win. And after you win, talk about it. I tell clients that when you built one of your dealstorm teams, and I have an illustration of this in a book, we even have a template Photoshop of how you could do this yourself. We create a movie poster and the movie poster’s actors are all the participants on the dealstorm team. You remember the one I had in the book about going after the Procter & Gamble opportunity.

Drew McLellan:

Yep.

Tim Sanders:

You want to create excitement in your agency around the dealstorm team and collaboration because it can become an intuition, because sometimes collaboration is best done with just a couple of people. But what I’ve learned by looking at research, and Miller Heiman did this, is that when you separate the world class organization from their competitors that don’t close as well as they do, the only difference is their habit of conscious collaboration. It’s not the leadership, it’s not the creative talent. It’s not even the partner value chain, it’s whether or not these teams can work widely enough and quickly enough to mow their way through problems.

Drew McLellan:

Interesting. And you know …

Tim Sanders:

Build that culture, build that culture, one good hire one good fire, one good win at a time.

Drew McLellan:

I love the movie poster idea because it also publicizes who’s on the team. And after a while in agency culture, you want to be invited to play on the team. And so-

Tim Sanders:

That’s it.

Drew McLellan:

That would get you to be a better team player and a better contributor because you want to be invited back. Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Sanders:

Exactly.

Drew McLellan:

Great stuff. Tim, thank you so much. If folks want to track you down, follow your work, learn more about your consulting, what’s the easiest way for them to do all of that?

Tim Sanders:

Hey, just come to Timsanders.com. That’s Timsanders.com. If you would like to read an entire chapter of Dealstorming, it’s called Sales Genius Is a Team Sport, you can download it. It’s at dealstorming.net/free.

Drew McLellan:

Awesome. Thank you so much for your time and for being so generous with your expertise. I really appreciate it.

Tim Sanders:

Absolutely true. Absolutely. Me too, I enjoyed it.

Drew McLellan:

All right, gang. This wraps up another episode of Build a Better Agency, I’ll be back next week with another guest who will hopefully inspire you and fire you up as much as Tim did today. In the meantime, if you’re looking for me, I’m at agencymanagementinstitute.com or [email protected]. And I will see you next week. Talk to you soon.

Speaker 1:

That’s all for this episode of AMI’s Build a Better Agency, brought to you by HubSpot. Be sure to visit agencymanagementinstitute.com to learn more about our workshops, online courses, and other ways we serve small to mid-size agencies. Don’t miss an episode as we help you build the agency you’ve always dreamed of owning.