Unlock the Power of Networking with Melissa Snow

Drew McLellan [00:00:38]:

Hey everybody, Drew Mclellan here with agency Management Institute. Guess what? You’re right. I am back with another episode of Build a Better Agency. And we’re going to talk about an interesting topic today. You know, from the very time I started my professional career, even when I was in college, there was always a lot of talk about networking. And networking back in the day was like going to big gatherings, chamber events or professional organizations and like schmoozing people, like walking around the room and kind of a lot of chat, chat, love your hat kind of thing. And even though I’m an extrovert and even though I get a lot of energy around being a lot of people, I didn’t love that. It just felt transactional and it felt like everybody knew why everybody was there and it just wasn’t my thing. But I think networking as I have matured in my professional life, and I suspect as you have too, I’ve really broadened my idea of networking. And much like I’ve changed the word selling to helping, I’ve changed the word networking to helping too. I think when we just meet interesting people and we look for ways to be helpful to them, we cultivate relationships with them, and that’s a whole different ballpark when it comes to kind of filling your contact list or your LinkedIn with people that you actually know and that you have a connection with and a slight personal relationship with a slight professional relationship. And when I do that, I find that it’s amazing how sort of, you know, six degrees to Kevin Bacon, people know people and it just, it just opens up doors in a new way when I think about it differently. And so that’s, that is the expertise of today’s guest. Her name is Melissa Snow and she works with professionals. She specializes in working with women. But I know that everything she teaches will work for all of us, but helps people understand and wrap their head around how to network better and how powerful that can be in growing your business. And so I think we’re going to learn a lot from her today and I’m ready to take notes and I hope you are too. So let’s welcome her to the show. Melissa, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us.

Melissa Snow [00:02:48]:

Hi. Thanks so much for having me. I’m excited to talk to you today.

Drew McLellan [00:02:51]:

So give everybody a little bit of your background and how you came to have this expertise.

Melissa Snow [00:02:57]:

Yeah. So I started out as an entrepreneur accidentally. I was working full time as a personal injury paralegal. I was doing some work on the side for a guy who had a company doing medical record summaries for attorneys. And so I would write summaries for him. He would charge the attorneys 60 bucks an hour. He’d pay me 25 bucks an hour. It was a great gig for him.

Drew McLellan [00:03:20]:

Yeah.

Melissa Snow [00:03:21]:

And he decided to take his business in a different direction. Asked me if I wanted his clients. I said, sure. Overnight, I was an entrepreneur with a full client load and making good money.

Drew McLellan [00:03:31]:

That doesn’t happen very often.

Melissa Snow [00:03:33]:

Best no sales, no marketing, nothing. And I was like, man, being an entrepreneur is super fun. Like, why doesn’t everyone do this?

Drew McLellan [00:03:40]:

How easy could this be? Right? I’m sure. Yeah.

Melissa Snow [00:03:43]:

Yeah. It was fantastic. So I launched my second business about three years after that, I got my coaching certification and I started my second business, which was called Love Starts Here. I was a dating and relationship coach, and I thought that was going to be the same way. I thought I was going to show up and say, I’m here. I’m a coach. This is what I can help you with. And all the people would just come and throw their money at me. And weirdly, that did not happen. So I know, shocking. I learned a lot through trial and error, through a lot of wasted time and money. And what I really realized when I looked back on the course of building that business was the thing that had consistently made me money and brought me clients without even really realizing it, was the connections that I made in the relationships that I’d built. I had done the $10,000 sales sell high ticket masterminds. I had done the sales psychology courses, paid for the expensive website. But my clients really did come from the relationships that I had. And so when I started this business, Powerful Women Rising, about three years ago, I really wanted to help business owners get back to focusing on that. I wanted to help save them time and money by focusing on this thing that is the one that will really move their business forward. And I just think networking is one of the most underrated, but also sustainable business growth tools that there is. And so I just love finding helping people to find a way to do it that works for them, that feels good to them, that they don’t hate it. And also that gets them good results in their business.

Drew McLellan [00:05:17]:

Yeah, when you think about it, I mean, if you’re a relationship and dating coach, the level of trust that is required would be pretty significant. I mean, people are telling you a lot of personal things, I’m sure, in the pursuit of that. So you can totally see why networking would work, which is sort of oddly equivalent to the work that our audience does, which is, hey, give us, you know, tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. Trust me that the work we’re going to do is going to move the needle for you. There’s a, it’s a, there’s a deep, intimate level of trust that is required. And so again, it makes sense that relationships would be a feeder to that because we all want to work with people that we know like and trust. And so absolutely to your point, networking is the fodder for that. So, yeah, you and I were talking a little bit before we hit the record button, sort of how the, how the definition of networking has changed a little bit. So help us understand from your perspective what networking is and what’s the desired outcome? Is it always about a new client?

Melissa Snow [00:06:24]:

That’s a great question. So there’s a definition of networking that I really love that’s from like 1914 and it is a broadcast system of multiple transmitters. Obviously they weren’t talking about networking for business, but I love that definition in the business sense because.

Drew McLellan [00:06:39]:

And I love that it’s from 1914.

Melissa Snow [00:06:42]:

Right. And I don’t know why I remember that. I couldn’t tell you what I did this morning, but I remember that that definition is from 1914. And I just love that visual because that really does encapsulate what networking is about in business. Right. If I’ve got my own broadcast system and I’ve got a hundred people in my network to share my message, my event, my service, my offer, whatever with, that’s great. I can reach a hundred people. But if I’ve got a broadcast system of multiple transmitters, I’ve got a relationship with you, I’ve got a relationship with Sally, I’ve got a relationship with Joe, and they’ve all got networks now, I’ve just quadrupled my reach without me having to go meet those other 300 people, schmooze with them, have coffee with them, send a follow up email, make sure I’m staying top of mind, like do all the things right. And they are already coming to me as warm leads because like you said, people want to work with people they know, like, and Trust. And if someone knows and likes and trusts you, and they know that you know, like, and trust me, then those aren’t cold leads coming to me, right? They’re. They’re halfway there. And so I always say the purpose of networking, a lot of people think it’s to make sales and find clients. The purpose of networking, actually is to build your network. And that sounds very simple, but that’s really how it works. And there are so many different roles that can be filled in your network. You and I were talking about this too, right? Sometimes we’re looking for people who have a similar audience to ours but do something different so we can collaborate on something. Sometimes we’re looking for people that do the same thing as us, but for a different population. So if someone’s not a fit for me, I can send them to you. If someone’s not a fit for you, you can send them to me. Sometimes I’m just looking for people who are support people, right? We all need a yes person in our life. We all need the person that’s like, that’s a great idea, Melissa. It’s definitely going to work. You should do it. We also need the people in our lives that are like, that is actually not a good idea. Let’s not do that, right? So there are so many people that you need in your life as an entrepreneur and as part of your network. And so really just looking for, where do you have some of those gaps? What would be most supportive to you and your question about, like, what is the objective? What are you looking for? What’s your purpose? It’s going to change sometimes, right? If I’m in a space where I’m like, man, I really want to grow my YouTube channel, but I have no idea how what I’m looking for at networking events is going to be very specific right now, right? I need somebody who can help me with this or who knows somebody who can, or maybe even somebody who’s got a successful YouTube channel. If I am in a different space where I’m just like, man, I just really need to grow my email list or I really need to get in front of some new people, then who I’m looking for is going to be different. So that’s an important point too, is that your objective is not always going to be the same.

Drew McLellan [00:09:37]:

Well, and it’s interesting because to your point, if the transmitter and the audience already have a relationship and you have a relationship with the transmitter, not only is it not a cold lead, but it’s actually a pretty hot lead because you get all the borrowed esteem from the transmitter. Right. Because, you know, I don’t know about you, but if I introduce somebody to somebody else, that’s a huge risk to me. Right. So if I introduce someone to you and they are a jerk to you or they really trying to hard sell you or whatever, you’re going to call me and go, drew, why in the world did you introduce me to that guy? Because. Right. So if the transmitter is willing to risk their currency with that person that they know, that audience, that tells the audience there is a strong relationship between the transmitter and you, otherwise they wouldn’t take that risk. And so I would argue that. And I think that’s why referrals are such a powerful sales tool. Right. But nowadays, to your point, it might be, I need. I need somebody who knows something I don’t know, or, boy, I have a client who needs something that I don’t do. I want to be the hero and help them by introducing them to someone else. And so now there’s nothing in it for me other than doing a good deed for somebody that I care about professionally or personally. So I just think it’s. I always think of networking as such an interesting and intricate dance of both give and take. And I’m curious about your sense of. Because everyone thinks of networking. Like, you and I both been to networking events where there’s that person and for some reason they’re always insurance salespeople, but there’s that person at the event that’s like, okay, anytime that person is on this side of the room, I want to be on the other side of the room. Like, I know exactly what they want and they’re going to be relentless about it. Yeah, but I think when somebody approaches networking differently, like, it’s just about, how might I be of help to you and how can I learn more about what you do? That just changes the whole landscape.

Melissa Snow [00:11:44]:

Yeah, absolutely. So that is who we refer to as a salesy weirdo. So I always say we’re networking like humans, not like salesy weirdos. And when anyone who’s been to any networking event knows exactly what I’m talking about when I say salesy weirdo. There. There’s a lot of different ways to be salesy weirdos, but there’s. There’s one in every group, at least one for sure. And I think, you know, what you said about referrals, I think is really important too, because there are networking groups that are very transactional or networking events that are very transactional. Right. You have to send a Certain number of referrals every month. You have to refer me because we’re in the same group, you know, that kind of thing. And that, I think, really kind of waters down the value of a referral. Right. I want to know, if you’re sending someone to me, it’s because you know me, you know them, and you know this is a good thing. Right. You know how they work, you know what they do. You know the results they deliver. Exactly, exactly. Or you’re just referring them because they’re in the same group as you. Like, I don’t care. That doesn’t mean you know them, like them, or trust them.

Drew McLellan [00:12:48]:

And in fact, that feels worse to me because now I feel like you’re doing it to fulfill a need you have. It’s not about my need at all. Right. It’s like. It’s like I’m the bait on the hook. I don’t like that at all. For sure.

Melissa Snow [00:13:04]:

Yeah.

Drew McLellan [00:13:04]:

Yeah.

Melissa Snow [00:13:05]:

So I do think it’s a. It’s a balance of, like you said, give and take, because you don’t always want to be the person who is providing value to everybody else. And meanwhile, you’re like, hello, is anyone helping me? And I also think it’s a balance of being authentic, but also being intentional. I think sometimes when we’re focusing on being authentic and creating real relationships and, you know, genuine connections, I’ve heard people say, like, networking is just making friends. Networking isn’t just making friends.

Drew McLellan [00:13:34]:

Right.

Melissa Snow [00:13:34]:

If you are networking, it’s a great byproduct. Yeah, absolutely.

Drew McLellan [00:13:38]:

Yeah.

Melissa Snow [00:13:39]:

But if you are treating networking as making friends, and then you’re like, why am I not getting clients? Melissa lied to me. It’s because you’re treating networking as making friends. Right. So finding that balance between, like, the authenticity and the genuine connection. But also, how do I be intentional about what I’m doing without turning into a salesy weirdo? And I think that’s a delicate balance, too.

Drew McLellan [00:14:02]:

So let’s talk about that delicate balance. So I know that I can grow my business through referrals, through having, again, as you say, the transmitters. So how do I know when I’m getting close to the line between being intentional and being the salesy weirdo? Like, how do I. How. What does that tension feel like?

Melissa Snow [00:14:23]:

Yeah, I think a lot of it is the intention behind your actions. Right. Because we can take the exact same action from one energy and take the exact same action from another energy, and we’re going to come across very differently, and we’re going to get a very different result. So if I come to you and I say, let’s say I’m a travel agent and I know that you’re getting married and you’re going to be going on your honeymoon, Right. And I come to you and I say, hey, I heard that you’re getting married. So exciting. Congratulations. You’re probably going to be planning your honeymoon pretty soon. I would love to send you a list that I have of the top five honeymoon destinations just so you can take a look and see what interests you. If I’m coming to that interaction from a very, like, clean space where I just want to provide something valuable to you and I’m trusting that if you find it valuable and you find me likable and trustworthy, that that’s going to pay off at some point. Right. But if that’s not my goal, that’s not the intention behind it. I’m not showing up to get something or to sell something. I’m just like, hey, I have this thing that would be helpful for you. Yay. Right? But if I’m taking that exact same action from a very, like, graspy space, like, I’m secretly trying to make a sale, or, you know, I’m gonna give you this list and then I’m gonna add you to my email list, even though you didn’t ask me to, or I’m gonna give you this list and then two days later, I’m gonna text you and say, hey, did you look at the list? Which trip do you want me to plan? Like, those kinds of actions are coming from that graspy scarcity. I wanna sell space. And so I think that’s the biggest thing is it’s not necessarily about the action that you’re taking. It’s about being really aware of your intention and where you’re coming to that action from.

Drew McLellan [00:16:13]:

Yeah. So I use an analogy a lot where I talk to agency owners about how they can be helpful and be a thought leader and teach what they know exactly the same way. And the analogy I use is it’s like trying to get deer to come in your yard because you want them to feed, like, off your patio. And the hard thing is, is not running at the deer when they’re halfway in your yard. Right. You’re so excited to see the deer, but then you spook them and they go back in the yard. And what you’re saying is you have to have the confidence to know that the deer will keep coming in closer. And even if that deer doesn’t buy the honeymoon trip from you, they’re Going to pass that list along. Or they’re going to say, oh, you’re planning a family vacation. I know this great travel agent, and she gave me this. She gave us a great idea about our honeymoon. Let me introduce you to. You just have to have the faith that the circle will get closed.

Melissa Snow [00:17:05]:

Right, right, right. Yeah. Because even if you’re sitting in your house watching the deer, and you’re like, they’re halfway here, I can’t run at them. I know I can’t run out them. But, oh, my God, they’re going to get on the patio pretty soon, and then I’m going to go out there when they get on the patio, and it’s going to be so exciting. Are they coming to the patio?

Drew McLellan [00:17:19]:

Right, right, right.

Melissa Snow [00:17:20]:

Like, that’s still not the same as if you’re just in your house chilling, and you’re like, cool, there’s deer.

Drew McLellan [00:17:26]:

Right, Right. And sooner or later, I know they will come and they will eat off of my patio.

Melissa Snow [00:17:31]:

Yeah, yeah. And people feel that.

Drew McLellan [00:17:33]:

Right. There is a sense of. It’s. There’s a desperation that I think some people bring into networking that feels. Transactional was the word you used. And I think that’s exactly right. Which is I’m not actually leaning in to learn more about you and what you do, and I’m not actually suggesting things that I think would be helpful just to be a nice person and be helpful. And. And I know that I’m demonstrating that I know what I. I know my stuff, and I’m good at what I do. I. As opposed to, I gotta make the sale. Like, I have to make this a transaction as opposed to an interaction.

Melissa Snow [00:18:10]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we feel that ulterior motive. Even those people who think that they’re so great at sales and they’re, you know, I’m the queen of selling in the DMs or whatever it is. Like, we feel. We all get that DM that’s from the random person that’s like, hey, Drew, how’s your business going? I’d love to learn more about you. No, you wouldn’t.

Drew McLellan [00:18:30]:

Right, Right.

Melissa Snow [00:18:31]:

No, you would not.

Drew McLellan [00:18:32]:

Right.

Melissa Snow [00:18:33]:

And so I think knowing that, like, you’re not as good at that as you think that you are. And honestly, it’s even worse because if you are good at it, then we get to a space where, like, oh, he really wants to know about me. That’s so cool we’re having this conversation. And then you go to the salesy weirdo part. Now I’m like, I just wasted all that time and money, thinking you just wanted to help and know about me.

Drew McLellan [00:18:57]:

And I feel stupid.

Melissa Snow [00:18:58]:

Yeah. Which is like you even less.

Drew McLellan [00:19:00]:

I was going to say. Which does not. Which does not make me want to be with you anymore.

Melissa Snow [00:19:05]:

Yeah.

Drew McLellan [00:19:05]:

Yeah. So I’m sure some people listening are thinking, this all sounds great, but, oh, my God, it sounds like so much time. Like, I don’t have time to go, I have little kids, I have fill in the blank, or I’m an introvert. I don’t like people anyway, like to go to a big networking event or schmoozy cocktail party or any. Like, I’m sure there are some people who are just crawling out of their skin as they’re hearing us using, you know, the networking phrase, and they’re just like, not me. Not me.

Melissa Snow [00:19:33]:

Yeah. So, yeah.

Drew McLellan [00:19:35]:

Is there a way to network for it? I know there’s not the same way for everyone, but is there a way for everyone, no matter how they’re wired or how busy they are, to be a good networker?

Melissa Snow [00:19:46]:

100%. Yeah. I think the first point is you don’t have to do it all the time. As with anything. Like social media, for example, people always say, like, you have to do it consistently. Yes. That doesn’t mean you have to do it every single day. That means you decide. I have the capacity for one networking event every month, and I’m going to show up at that networking event every single month. So that people expect me. They know I’m dependable, they know I’m reliable, they expect to see me here. I get to know the same people. Right. So even if you only have capacity for one every month, if you do that consistently, that’s going to work for you. And as far as, like, being an introvert or being shy, I think there is a big misconception that networking only works for people who are very outgoing, extroverted, confident, charismatic. Because we think of networking as like, Mr. Schmoozer. Right. But actually, people don’t love Mr. Schmoozer. Like, the only one who loves Mr. Schmoozer is Mr. Schmoozer number two. Because they’re just like, oh, bro, we’re so cool.

Drew McLellan [00:20:49]:

Right, Right, Right.

Melissa Snow [00:20:50]:

So actually, introverts have a. Almost a superpower when it comes to networking because they are genuinely interested in what you have to say. They do want to listen to you. They are like, they are the people who make you feel seen and heard. Right. Not just the people who are waiting for their turn to talk. So don’t underestimate the Power that you have as an introvert, as a neurodivergent person, as a shy person, whatever it is, there is a way to network that works for you. And because I say networking really is just creating genuine connections, there are so many different ways to do that. Right. We’re doing it right now on this podcast, right? Your listeners are. I’m creating a connection with your listeners. You’re creating a connection with your listeners. I’m going to share this with my audience. They’re going to get a connection with you. So that is networking. You can network when you are speaking on a stage. You can network when you are writing a blog post. There’s a lot of different ways to connect with people. And as far as, like, networking groups and networking events, I think it’s important to recognize that they’re not all the same. They’re not all the same format. They’re not all this run by the same person. They’re not the same people who show up. And so there’s so many. There’s so many similarities between what I would teach and work with people on in dating and relationships and what I teach and work with people on in business. Right? We go on three horrible dates and we’re like, that’s it. I’m not going on number four.

Drew McLellan [00:22:22]:

Right.

Melissa Snow [00:22:22]:

I’m not doing.

Drew McLellan [00:22:23]:

I will be single forever. Right.

Melissa Snow [00:22:25]:

And yet the reality is dates one through three have zero to deal with four.

Drew McLellan [00:22:31]:

Right?

Melissa Snow [00:22:31]:

And it’s the same thing with networking events. You can’t go to one or two and be like, those were terrible. I hated them. I hate networking because there are a lot of different formats and ways to do it. For example, there are these networking events where you just come, you get a drink, it’s a big room, everyone’s mingling, we’re chatting. There’s no real, like, structure. It’s just get to know people. That’s like my worst nightmare. I would rather do just about anything than walk into that room because I’m just not the person that is going to walk up to a group of people I don’t know and be like, hi, I’m Melissa. Who are you? Oh, great to meet you. Like, that’s just not my personality. But you give me an event where it’s like, oh, you’re at table number five. You sit with those people. I’m going to give you a topic to discuss for 10 minutes and then you’re going to move to this table. I could do that all day long. So try different things and find the format that works for you and that you actually enjoy doing because there is a way to do it for everyone.

Drew McLellan [00:23:31]:

Yeah. So we need to take a quick break, but when we come back, I want to talk about how do you signal, by the way, we haven’t even talked about online, like forums and discussion groups and all that. So when we come back, I want to talk a little bit about how you show up when you’re physically not present and so people get a sense of who you are. Especially you and I are on Zoom together so we can see each other, which I even though our podcast is audio, I always interview everybody on Zoom because I like the eye connection. Like, I feel like we’re actually having a conversation which is different than a phone conversation, like if we were just doing it by audio. So let’s take a break and I want to talk about how do we show up when we don’t have those visual cues like we do when we’re in person or on a zoom. So let’s take a quick break and we’ll be right back. Hey everybody, thanks for listening today. Before I get back to the interview, I just want to remind you that we are always offering some really amazing workshops. And you can see the whole [email protected] on the navigation. Head to how we help. Scroll down and you’ll see workshops and you can see the whole list there with descriptions of each workshop. They are all in Denver and we’ve got them throughout the year for agency owners, account Execs, agency leaders, CFOs. We have a little something for everybody. No matter what it is that you’re struggling with, people, new business, money, all of those things we’ve got covered. So check them out and come join us. All right, let’s get back to the show. All right, we are back with Melissa Snow and we are talking about the power of networking and that if you’ve missed part of it and you just jumped in the middle, which I don’t know why you would do that. But if you did what what we have talked about is that a networking is really about building genuine relationships. It’s not transactional. It’s not about what can I get from someone? And that there is a type of networking that works for everybody. Whether you are super busy, whether you’re a mom of three toddlers and can’t leave the house, whether you are, you know, somebody who considers themselves an introvert or whatever it may be, there, there is a path for you that this can be valuable and actually enjoyable. So before the break I said one thing. When we’re in a room together, which we. I think that’s how we think about networking. Even in today’s post Covid world. I think we think of networking as walking into a room and. And there’s a group of people we don’t know and it’s time to sort of work the room, if you will. So what about how do we show up and how do we give people a true sense of ourselves when we don’t have all those visual cues that we do when we’re in person or on a zoom?

Melissa Snow [00:26:06]:

Yeah. So I think if you are. People ask me about the follow up a lot. Right. Because we meet people and then what do we do? We have to do something. And so usually that involves something that is not face to face. Maybe it’s. Or engaging with your posts on LinkedIn or I’m sending you an email or something like that. And I think one of the big things with that is finding a way to personalize it. So to be able to say to you two weeks later when I send you an email to say, hey, Drew, it was so great meeting you at that such and such event. I loved our conversation about whatever. Right. When I say that to you now, you know that I’m not just copying and pasting this message to every single person that was at that event. And. And that our conversation was valuable enough to me that I remember you and I remember what we talked about.

Drew McLellan [00:26:53]:

Yep.

Melissa Snow [00:26:53]:

So I think that’s a big part of it. I think what you mentioned earlier about looking for ways to provide value to people is huge. That’s one of my favorite ways to follow up. And I’ve been doing it so long, it kind of just comes naturally to me. Like, I’ll hear a podcast episode and I think, who was I just talking to about that? Right. It takes 5, 10 seconds for me to forward that episode to them and say, hey, I just heard this reminds me of the conversation we were having the other day. Listen to it if it’s helpful. Right. Or I just saw this article, made me think of you saw this podcast that was looking for guests. You’d be perfect. That doesn’t take very much time, but it makes people feel very appreciated. And there are actually studies that show that the part of the brain that lights up when people feel loved is the same part of the brain that lights up when people feel seen and heard. And that’s exactly what that kind of stuff does. And then the third thing I say, which I mean, I say it all the time, and it sounds so obvious, but be yourself, be authentic. When you’re commenting on somebody’s post or you’re sending somebody an email, write the same way you would speak.

Drew McLellan [00:28:02]:

Right?

Melissa Snow [00:28:03]:

Because that creates such a different connection. There’s this weird thing happening. I’m. I’m a big threads fan. I’m obsessed with threads right now. And there’s this weird thing happening on threads where there’s some. It must be like an AI bot or something that will respond to your post, but it basically just says exactly what your post said, but in different words. And I think people think this is, like, good for the algorithm because it’s creating engagement and whatever it is. The weirdest thing, Like, I’m always just like, how do I respond to this? Like, yes, that’s exactly what I said.

Drew McLellan [00:28:38]:

Right, Right.

Melissa Snow [00:28:39]:

Thank you for restating my post in different words. Like, that is not. That is like me trying to game the system. That’s not me trying to create a connection. So when you respond thoughtfully, when you respond in a way that sounds like you, that you are actually being a real person, I think that makes it much easier for people to feel connected with you, too. And, I mean, we can get into the whole mindset of everything, right? Like, this is part of why networking has gotten so weird, is that so many people feel like they need to put on a mask to do it. Right? I need to show up as this very professional, polished person who has all the answers, knows all the things, is making all the money, because that’s what’s going to make people take me seriously. That’s going to make people want to send referrals to me. And the reality is, what is going to make people want to send referrals to you is creating connections with them. And you can’t do that unless you’re showing up as yourself, whether that is in person or online.

Drew McLellan [00:29:39]:

Yeah, it’s interesting. So we write, we send out a weekly newsletter, and in some ways, for me, that’s one of the places where I network. Right? We have a big list. And I always write. I write the whole thing. And so in the lead story, if you will, I’m often talking about one of our kids or the dog or I’ll reflect on something I learned from one of my parents or whatever. And that’s actually when I meet someone in person who’s been on the list for years, they’ll say two things to me. One, you sound just like I thought you would sound like. You talk like I. I recognize the cadence of your voice from how you write. And two, I feel like I know you because I know you have. You and your wife are terrible foster dog people because you just keep all the dogs and like they know all the things. And I think you’re right. I think the more you just are yourself, you’re flawed, broken, happy, sad, melancholy, joyful self. On whatever given day, it is the sense that they feel like you’re real. And again, we can’t trust something. Especially in today’s AI world, the need for trust and confidence just keeps escalating. As to your point with the threads bot, you know, when half of the comments on your post are AI generated nonsense, you look even harder at the other posts to make sure they’re real. And when they’re real, you value them so much more, which allows you then to create connection, which then leads to trust. And so I think, to your point, I think you’re exactly right. And I don’t mean unpolished in an unprofessional way, but the less varnished you are, right, like that you’re real. That, yes, yes, you’re a professional. Yes. You know what you’re doing. You. Yes, you choose your words carefully and you know, you’re not cussing or whatever your thing is, but that you are a real human being allows people to lean in and go, okay, I. I’m interested in creating a relationship with this real human being.

Melissa Snow [00:31:43]:

Yeah, Yeah. I always tell people, I’m like, let’s be really clear about what authenticity actually means, because it does not mean posting a selfie of you crying. Like, I don’t know what that. I don’t know what that weird trend is, but when I’m crying, the last thing I think is, I should take a picture, right? I should take a picture and put this on social media and share it with strangers so everyone can see how real I am. Right?

Drew McLellan [00:32:05]:

Yeah. Right.

Melissa Snow [00:32:05]:

No, it is exactly what you said it is people trusting that no matter what space they see you in, you’re going to be the same person. Whether we talk on the phone, we talk on Zoom. I read your newsletter. I meet you at a networking event. I’m still getting the same guy every single time. Right? And what you said about sharing those parts of yourself, of your family, of, you know, what makes you an actual human being is also important. I have so many Facebook friends that I don’t actually know in real life because I primarily use my Facebook for business. But when I get a friend request from somebody and we have mutual friends, and I’m trying to decide if I Want to accept this friend request or not? One of the things that I automatically do is just scroll through their Facebook feed, and if every single post is business, business, business, business, business, business, I usually don’t approve those requests because I don’t. I want to know who you are as a human. I mean, I love. I love that you’re a business owner. I want to know about that. I want to know how I can support you, but I also want to connect with you on a human level. And so I love what you said about sharing those things about your life and your newsletter and letting people into that part of who you are, because it. It doesn’t have to be just all business, all the time.

Drew McLellan [00:33:20]:

Well, I’ve always believed so. My dad was a banker. And so my dad would come home in a. In a suit, and that was work dad. And then he’d go upstairs and he’d come down in his jeans, and it was like, dad. And there was very little crossover for him. Right. Like, he didn’t talk about work at home. Like, in his world, they. Those were two separate human beings, and I don’t know how to do that.

Melissa Snow [00:33:43]:

That’s very hard to do as an entrepreneur in particular.

Drew McLellan [00:33:45]:

Well, and especially in today’s world, I mean, we’re all connected to each other in all of these places. You are one human being, and you bring that same human being to work. You bring it to your family, you bring it to your friends, you bring it to your hobbies. And so I’ve always believed that with some boundaries and barriers, you are that same person. Now, would I tell the same joke at church or to my grandma that I might tell my friends? Probably not. Right? So, I mean, again, I think there is some discernment involved.

Melissa Snow [00:34:15]:

There’s some boundaries.

Drew McLellan [00:34:17]:

Right. But you’re all still the same person. It’s just. Which facet of that person does somebody get? Depending on the. On the lens?

Melissa Snow [00:34:25]:

Absolutely. Yeah, I agree.

Drew McLellan [00:34:27]:

So if someone’s listening to this and they’re like, I’m the person that Melissa was talking about, went to three networking events, hated them all, said, nope, I’m going to be single forever, I’m not networking. I will buy Google Ads and do other things to grow my business, but I’m not networking. And if after listening to us talk, they’re like, okay, maybe, maybe I’m willing to explore this idea that the fourth date, the fourth networking event might be the right one. How would you suggest someone who is not as comfortable with all of this, how should they start? How do they Dip their toe in the water and find the kind of networking that is comfortable for them.

Melissa Snow [00:35:08]:

Yeah. I think the first thing is to. If you have done some networking already and you didn’t enjoy it, think about what it was that you didn’t like about it. Is it because there was no structure and you just were kind of mingling and you felt awkward and didn’t know what to do? Is it because it was a co ed event and all of the like row energy made you feel uncomfortable? You know, there’s a lot of different reasons why we might not like it. Is it because I thought it was a networking group, but really it was a leads group? Like there’s a very different thing here. So knowing what it was that you didn’t like about those experiences, so that when you’re looking for other experiences, you know that you’re looking for the opposite. Right. Maybe you are somebody who only wants to and needs to network with, you know, all women or all men or coed does work for you.

Drew McLellan [00:36:00]:

Maybe you are somebody your own age.

Melissa Snow [00:36:02]:

Right, Exactly. Maybe you are somebody who wants to do more online networking than in person networking. I think if you’re somebody who’s never done any networking, virtual is a good way to kind of ease yourself in. Because I feel like walking into a virtual room full of strangers is much easier than walking into an actual room full of strangers.

Drew McLellan [00:36:23]:

Yes, for sure.

Melissa Snow [00:36:25]:

And I always joke too, like, if you’re halfway through the networking event and you’re like, this is so awkward and I hate it. Get me out of here. It’s very easy to just be like, oh, sorry, my connection by not quite as easy when you’re in the room. So I think virtual is a. Is a good way to ease yourself into it. And yeah, just looking for different formats and different ways to network. Because like I said, it doesn’t even have to be traditional networking events or networking.

Drew McLellan [00:36:50]:

I was going to ask you that. Like, really, anytime there’s a group of humans gathered, you can connect and network with them, Even if the word networking has nothing to do with why they’re gathered, right?

Melissa Snow [00:37:02]:

Yes, absolutely. I mean, you can be networking at your son’s baseball game. You can. You know, we’re in Colorado, so everybody in Colorado hikes apparently, right?

Drew McLellan [00:37:11]:

Yep. And walk some kind of animal, right? Yeah.

Melissa Snow [00:37:14]:

So there are hiking groups, there’s dog parks, there’s all the things. Right. So find something that you like to do and go do it and you will organically just naturally create relationships with those people. The same thing I would tell My dating coaching clients, right. Like, they’re like, I don’t want to be on the apps. I’m like, great, what do you want to do?

Drew McLellan [00:37:33]:

Right.

Melissa Snow [00:37:34]:

Go with this group that’s going to hike a 14er. And if you meet no one that you like, at least you got to do something you enjoyed.

Drew McLellan [00:37:42]:

Right.

Melissa Snow [00:37:42]:

And it’s the same thing with networking too. You can, you can meet people and connect with people anywhere and, and if you’re doing something that interests you, you’re probably going to find people who are more like you in terms of values and energy and, you know, that kind of thing, which is what you’re looking for.

Drew McLellan [00:38:01]:

I sort of think sometimes it’s easier to learn how to network professionally when you network personally. Right. So the stakes feel different. Like, to your point, if you go to your son’s baseball game or, you know, you’re part of a hiking club or, you know, you’re in a book club or whatever it is, what’s fascinating to me is again, because we are holistic human beings, the people in the book club or at the ball game or whatever also work probably, or know people who work. And so when you just show up as yourself and you are curious about other people and you lean in and you ask questions and you learn about them, I’m always surprised at how quickly I can connect dots and go, oh, you’re a photographer. Oh, wait, I have a client who’s looking for like all of a sudden, even when you’re, you’re not really trying to do it, it just sort of happens when you lean in a little bit and you start to get to know people. So maybe for somebody who’s new at this, doing it in a low stakes way, to your point, in almost a casual personal way, you will make business connections as well.

Melissa Snow [00:39:07]:

Yeah.

Drew McLellan [00:39:07]:

And then you can take those same skills and that same comfort level and, and then escalated into something that is maybe a little more air quotes, formal, like a conference. Maybe it’s not a networking event, but it’s a professional conference where, you know, if you’re an agency owner and you go to an agency conference, odds are they’re going to be a lot of other people who do what you do and tangentially around you where you can learn from each other. And I always find that when I go in to a networking event and really my goal is to learn, not to teach, not to sell, not to whatever, but just to learn. Like, oh, how do you do that? Oh, I, I don’t know very much about how did you grow your YouTube channel, whether I want to know it or not, sooner or later. To your point of like, oh, I heard a podcast and this person over here wants to hear it. I’ll be like, oh, I talked to somebody the other day that grew their YouTube channel. They just blew it up. Who was that again? Oh, yeah, I can introduce you. And I think sometimes being the connector, maybe you. Maybe part of networking is being the transmitter, right?

Melissa Snow [00:40:08]:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Drew McLellan [00:40:09]:

And making those connections and then people return that favor.

Melissa Snow [00:40:13]:

Yeah, yeah. You hope that they do. And I think that’s an important point, too. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s an important point, too. Don’t get so focused again, the balance. Right. Don’t get so focused on, like, I don’t want to be salesy. I’m just providing value. That when people are like, what about you, your business? You’re like, oh, I. You know, I have a. Whatever. So anyway, back to you.

Drew McLellan [00:40:36]:

Right, right.

Melissa Snow [00:40:37]:

We sometimes I think a lot of us take like, the I don’t want to be salesy to the extreme of like, I’m not even going to talk about my business. I’m going to even talk about myself. And so finding that balance of like, yes, I want to provide value to you. I want to know about you, I want to learn about you. And also, don’t be weird when somebody else is like, what about you? Tell me about your business. Like, right. They want to know. So answer the question.

Drew McLellan [00:41:04]:

Yeah.

Melissa Snow [00:41:06]:

And it doesn’t make you salesy. It makes you a business owner talking about your business.

Drew McLellan [00:41:11]:

Right. And again, I think. I think it’s. It gets back to your point earlier, which is you stop short of the. I’m a travel agent, and I specialize in helping couples plan their dream honeymoons. And then you know what? I’ve got a list of the top 10 honeymoon spots in the world. Would that be helpful for you to see that list and then shush. Right. That’s the. The key, I think, is knowing when to shush.

Melissa Snow [00:41:35]:

Yes. And the energy that you’re coming to it with. Right, right. If you ask me about my business and I have just been waiting for my turn to talk about my business so that I can sell something to you. And I’m like, oh, well, I am a distributor of essential oils, and I do this. This. Have you ever used an essential oil? And I’m 100% not asking out of curiosity. I’m asking because I’m about to sell you some oils because you’re about to.

Drew McLellan [00:42:00]:

Pull some out of your purse.

Melissa Snow [00:42:01]:

Whatever is Happening with you. I have an oil for it. Right. So that’s the difference too, is like, coming from that space of, like, you asked me about my business and I’m like, oh, I. You know, I’ve been a distributor with this company for a long time. I started using these oils. I really love them and I love sharing them with other people. And then shush.

Drew McLellan [00:42:20]:

Right, right.

Melissa Snow [00:42:22]:

If they want to know more, they will ask you more.

Drew McLellan [00:42:24]:

That’s right. All right, so let’s say. Let’s say we’ve gotten better at this and we have gone to some networking events and we have met some amazing people. How do I keep track. How do I keep track of the fact that I met Melissa Snow and she was a guest on a podcast and she’s an expert in networking? Because I don’t know about you, but sometimes I don’t remember people’s names or I can remember what they look like or what they wore, but I. And I think their name started with an M, but I’m not sure and I can’t remember where I met them. So how do you organize all of these connections in a way that you can be meaningful and helpful to them?

Melissa Snow [00:43:02]:

Yeah, there’s a lot of different ways to do it. And again, it’s about finding what works for you. Some people keep track of their networking connections in their CRM or, you know, there’s a software called Dex that is specifically for keeping track of connections like that. If you’re going to do it that way, you just want to make sure that you are very intentional about keeping your connections that you’ve made at networking events separate from the people on your email list. Because. Just because I gave you my email address doesn’t mean I want to be on your list.

Drew McLellan [00:43:34]:

Right.

Melissa Snow [00:43:35]:

So I think you can do it that way if that way works for you. I know some people who just do it on a, like, Google sheet. They just keep track of. Here’s the people that I met. I followed up with her on this date. Here’s some notes about her. Here’s who I want to connect her with, whatever it is. And I think too something, I always take notes when I go to networking events or to networking groups. Like, if I have a roster, I’ll take notes when the people are introducing themselves. If someone gives me their business card, I’ll just write a little note on it. Like, this is Drew. He helps agencies, and his son is graduated from college in a week or whatever it is. Right. So then when I get home, I remember who you are and what you said. And I a lot of times will schedule an email right then, like I will put on my calendar a half hour after my networking event where I will come when it is fresh in my mind and I will sit down and I will write a follow up email. Drew, it was so great to meet you at the thing. Hope your son’s graduation was great. Love to hear how things are going. Right. And I’ll schedule that to go out to you in two and a half weeks. That doesn’t make it any less genuine that I’ve scheduled it in advance. I just know I’m going to forget. Right. It doesn’t mean I don’t want to know how your son’s graduation went. I just know I’m going to forget. So I’ll schedule it right now. It’ll go out to you in two and a half weeks. It’ll be great. The other thing too, I think is very important to remember is that you don’t have to follow up with every single person that you meet.

Drew McLellan [00:45:02]:

Right. It’s a great point.

Melissa Snow [00:45:04]:

Yeah. I use something again that I’ve used with my dating coaching clients. It’s like looking at the top of a funnel, Right. So you have all the, the big circle and then they get smaller and smaller and smaller. So for my dating coaching clients, it was like all the people who are on the dating app. You’ve been married for a while, right? You probably don’t even know what I’m talking about. Okay. So if they swipe right on you, it means they like how you look. You swipe right on them, you like how they look. Okay. So outside is everybody on the app, the next circle inside is everybody that you’ve swiped right on who’s also swiped right on you. Right. Then we get to the people I’ve exchanged messages with, maybe the people I’ve had video calls with, maybe the people I’ve had a first date with. And less and less people are getting.

Drew McLellan [00:45:44]:

To each circle, one would hope, right?

Melissa Snow [00:45:48]:

That would be the intention, yes. And it’s very much the same with networking. Right. So everybody that you meet at the networking event is out here and they don’t all need to move to the next circle. And all the people who move to the next circle don’t all need to move again. Right. You’re going to leave people in circles. And that’s okay. It’s really just about figuring out, like, who do I want to every stage, whether it’s dating or networking, every stage is, do I want to get to know this person more do I want to continue putting time and energy into seeing if this is a good relationship for me? Right. If the answer is yes, we move them down. If the answer is no, we leave them where they were. And that could be based on a lot of different criteria. Right. Sometimes it’s just like I can’t imagine having you over for dinner on Friday night. So I’m going to leave you in this circle. Sometimes it is. Yes. Because I can tell that even though we have very different businesses, our mission and vision and values are aligned. So, yes, I would like to get to know you a little bit better. Right. Move you to the next circle. And so each of those circles, you’re spending a little more time and energy, investing a little more time and energy on the relationship. And I think that’s really important because people get overwhelmed with the follow up because they are thinking, I need to follow up with every single person who was at that event. And you don’t and you shouldn’t.

Drew McLellan [00:47:13]:

Yeah, that sounds miserable. And my guess is that people may move in and out of circles too. Right. So I might meet someone at a networking event and I think, I don’t think I can be helpful to them. And I don’t really understand what they do. So I’m gonna leave them in the outer circle. Well, that doesn’t mean, to use your analogy, they didn’t swipe right on me and go, hey, you know what? He knows a lot of people. I want to know. So they could also step into a circle, move me into an inner, and then I’d be like, oh, I was totally wrong. I misunderstood what they did and I do want to engage with this person more. Or I’d move them into the circle. And then I’m like, she’s kind of yucky now that I get to know her a little better. So I’m going to leave her. I’m going to push her back out to the further circle because I’m kind of done with that. Right. So it’s not. It’s not a one and done decision. Like all relationships, they probably ebb and flow over time.

Melissa Snow [00:48:00]:

Absolutely. Yes. Great point.

Drew McLellan [00:48:03]:

As we wrap up this conversation, this has been fascinating and it kind of reinvigorate, I will admit anybody who’s listened to the show for a while or knows me, I love big crowds of people. I’m extroverted. I love all of that stuff. And I don’t get to do it as much as I would like to. And so this conversation has been great because we just had our Huge conference. We were with 375 agency owners for four days, for 15 hours a day last week.

Melissa Snow [00:48:26]:

Oh, wow.

Drew McLellan [00:48:27]:

I got a lot of it.

Melissa Snow [00:48:28]:

That’s a lot of people.

Drew McLellan [00:48:29]:

It was awesome. Yeah, that’s what my wife says, too, who’s an introvert. She’s like, that was a lot of people. Yeah, she says it differently than I do. And she loves the people, but it’s just exhausting for her. But I love that our conversation is reminding me that I get a lot of energy from that. I need to give myself that gift more often of just connecting with more people and learning more about them and kind of leaning into that. So this has been a great conversation personally for me, just to go, God, you need to feed that. You need to feed that often than you do. But if people are listening and they’re like, okay, what’s the next thing they should do? Give them permission to try or do the thing that you think after they listen to this episode will sort of fan the flame and have them be able to feel the real value. And the value is not just professional. It is very human to human. I just think in today’s world, we’re so isolated so often that just to connect with another human being is lovely. So help them with the first step. What should they do before. Before we let you go?

Melissa Snow [00:49:34]:

Yeah. So I have two answers, depending on who you are and where you’re at in your relationship with networking. The first one, I think is something everyone should do today. That is think of something that you read recently that was interesting or listened to or saw that was interesting that helped you, that made you think about something in a different way that related to a conversation that you had with someone recently and share it with them. Even if this is somebody that you haven’t talked to in a couple months, even if you know it’s somebody that you don’t know all that well. Shoot them an email, send them a text, say, I saw this the other day. I thought it was so fascinating. Would love to hear your thoughts. Or, you know, I know you’re working on this. I thought this might be helpful to you. You will be amazed at what it does to and for your connections when you just out of nowhere, selflessly are like, hey, here’s this thing that will help you. Yeah, right. Even if it’s just this thing that will help you because it’s funny or it’s cute or I knew you’d like it. Right.

Drew McLellan [00:50:39]:

Right.

Melissa Snow [00:50:40]:

So I love that. And then the second thing I would say, especially if you’re somebody who is new to networking, you think you don’t like it, you’re very hesitant to do it. Pick something today and sign up for it and then actually go. It’s okay if it is a virtual thing that five people are on. It’s okay if it is an in person thing and you’re going with three people that you already know. Just pick something and do it. Because I read this book once and I gotta look up the author because I reference it all the time, but it was about social anxiety. And she was a psychologist who worked with people on social anxiety. And she said, people come to me all the time and tell me, I need you to make me less anxious so I can go live my life. And she would always tell them it’s actually the opposite. You need to go live your life in order to become less anxious.

Drew McLellan [00:51:31]:

Yeah.

Melissa Snow [00:51:32]:

And it’s really the same for networking. The more you go out and do it, the easier it’s going to become. The more natural it’s going to become, the more confident you’re going to feel, the less scary it’s going to be. So sometimes you have to just force yourself to pick something, commit to it and follow through. And when it’s done, you might be like, that was the worst networking event I’ve ever been to. And now what’s the worst thing that happened? Right? You have like two funny stories. You can reach out to me with the like, value driven email. Right. Melissa, I heard your podcast. I did what you said. Listen to what happened to me at this awful networking event.

Drew McLellan [00:52:11]:

It was the most horrible evening of my life. Melissa.

Melissa Snow [00:52:13]:

And I will love your email so much. And. Right. So, like, that’s the worst thing that’s going to happen. The best thing that’s going to happen. You’re going to find your new business collaboration partner, you’re going to find your next client, you’re going to find your next friend or you’re at least going to leave there and go, okay, that wasn’t actually as miserable as I thought it was going to be.

Drew McLellan [00:52:34]:

Right.

Melissa Snow [00:52:34]:

And every little baby step in that direction is the right step.

Drew McLellan [00:52:40]:

Yeah. So, so true. This, this has been fantastic. Thank you. Thanks for, thanks for your time and sharing your expertise and your insights. I, I think a lot of people are going to get up out of their chair and go meet somebody, which I think is a very good thing for the world that we live in today. So thank you.

Melissa Snow [00:52:55]:

Good. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It was great talking about this stuff.

Drew McLellan [00:52:59]:

So if people want to learn more about you. If they want to find out about the work you do, what’s the best way for them to connect?

Melissa Snow [00:53:05]:

They want to tell me about the terrible network.

Drew McLellan [00:53:07]:

They want to tell you about their terrible.

Melissa Snow [00:53:08]:

After they heard my podcast, they want.

Drew McLellan [00:53:10]:

To share their misery with you.

Melissa Snow [00:53:12]:

So everything you can find on my website, which is powerfulwomenrising.com so my podcast is called Powerful Women Rising. You can find that on there. I run virtual speed networking events for female entrepreneurs once a month. That’s on there. I have an online community for female entrepreneurs that’s on there. There’s also a contact sheet. So if you want to send me a message and tell me how great or not great your last networking event was, I would love to hear you.

Drew McLellan [00:53:37]:

Okay. So your speed networking event for women would be a great thing for people to try virtually. It sounds like.

Melissa Snow [00:53:43]:

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And I hear all the time from people that are like, this is the best. Like, this is the most fun I’ve ever had networking or this is my first networking experience and it was so much better than I thought it was going to be. So, yeah, if you are a female and you are interested in dipping your toe in the water, it’s. It’s a very fun place to do it.

Drew McLellan [00:54:04]:

Awesome. So we’ll include links to all of that in the show notes for everybody. So you can find that if you’re in transit or moving in the place that you can’t jot that down. So we’ll get all of that to you. So homework. Melissa gave it to you. So go do it. I was thinking as she was talking, you know, all of you know, because I talk about it. Danielle and I host a live Q and A once a month where you can come ask us anything about agency life, about your employees, about clients. But one of the other things that happens is obviously you’re meeting a bunch of other agency owners at that Q and A. So that’s another very low stakes place. You can just come listen. You don’t have to talk at all. You can make a comment in the chat. You can have your video off if you want to. Although it’s really nice to see your faces. But that would be another sort of easy way to ease into connecting with somebody who has a great something great in common with you. The only people who show up, own or help run agencies. So they’re your people. So come to the live Q and A with us every month. We would love to have you there. So that’s your homework is pick a spot Dip your toe in the water and, you know, let us know if it’s miserable or if it’s not so miserable. And go there with the idea of just meeting somebody interesting and being somebody interesting to meet. That’s it. That’s all you have to do. You don’t have to sell, you don’t have to buy. Just go in with low expectations and go in as the good human being that you are. And I think you’re going to be surprised at the connections you make. So that would be awesome. Before I let you go, you know, I want to make sure I shout out to our friends at White Label iq. They’re the presenting sponsor of the podcast. So they were born out of an agency 20 years ago. They were trying to figure out how to get enough web dev talent to take care of their clients. They ended up building an entire sister company that all they do is white label design, dev and PPC for agencies. So they partner with agencies all over the world. They totally know your world because they are from an agency. So they know. They understand how you price. They understand how you have to make clients happy. And they have some amazing talent that serves clients 24 7. So check them [email protected] AMI all right. Oh, I love this stuff. This, this feeds. My extroverted soul is to meet people like Melissa and to talk and learn from them and learn on your behalf so that we can learn together. So I tell you what, I will come back next week. I hope you do too. We will learn from somebody new. Okay. All right. See you then. Thanks for listening.