Strategic Methodologies for Agency Success with Ana Laskey

Drew McLellan [00:00:37]: 

Hey everybody. Drew Mclellan here with another episode of Build a Better Agency. Welcome back. Glad to have you. So, you know, a recurring theme or topic that we talk about quite a bit on the show is this idea of how do agencies actually show up and add value and what do clients really want from us? And you know, from many years of the agency edge research and certainly me pounding on this topic, that we really believe that what differentiates us from all the freelancers out there, all the tools out there, AI, all those things, is our ability to have insight into our client’s business, to be able to sort of be that informed outsider that is super close to the organization, but can still have that fresh perspective that a client cannot have when they’re inside the bottle. You know, you’ve heard me say it a million times, really difficult to read the label accurately from outside the bottle when you’re inside the bottle. And so all of that to be said, I believe more and more true today, and we certainly see it in our research, and we actually saw it in our agency Edge research from 2025, that even when it comes to AI, what clients want from us is strategy. So the question is, how do we do strategy? Well, what does that look like and how do we do that in a way that is also profitable for us? We can’t give away all of our thinking for free. We, which I know some of you fall into the trap of, and we also can’t charge a dime for something when it takes a dollar worth of time and effort, let alone the value baked into that strategy. So today’s guest is going to talk to us a little bit about how we need to think about strategy, how we need to approach strategy, the methodology that we approach strategy with and why that’s important, and how all of that leads to better strategy, more profitable strategy, and deeper, better relationships with our clients. So without further ado, let’s welcome Anna Lasky to the show and I have a lot of questions for her, so hang tight. Ana, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:02:40]: 

Thanks for having me, Drew. Appreciate it. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:02:42]: 

So give everybody a little sense of your Background and the work you do every day. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:02:46]: 

Absolutely. So my background is in market research and specifically market research that aids organizations in developing go to market strategy and really executing effectively with their customers to drive new customer growth and to drive loyalty with customers. So. Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:03:03]: 

So does that make you a researcher by training? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:03:06]: 

Yes, by training I’m a researcher and now my firm is really a pairing between the research element and the strategy element. And we bring it all together in the way we work with clients. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:03:18]: 

Okay. So as you know, I mean, one of the, one I know one of the audiences or one of the folks that you serve our agencies. So in our world, the work we do, the stuff we make has been pretty commoditized. The one thing that hasn’t been commoditized, thank goodness, is the strategy. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:03:34]: 

Yes. Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:03:35]: 

And the smarts that we bring, that sort of outsiders inside perspective I think is really an interesting thing that only agencies can do for clients. Clients are too close and everybody else doesn’t know enough about them. So I’m curious, as you sort of watch agencies navigate this space, what do you think agencies do really well when it comes to strategy? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:03:57]: 

I think agencies are great at storytelling and I mean, I think that’s kind of one of the agency things, right. Is we want to be able to tell a story to our client, to the market, all of those things. I think that when it comes to strategy, you know, clients oftentimes are so close to it, like you said, that they’re in the weeds and they got so much data or they have no data and they’ve got all these thoughts, they don’t have a story and a through line within that. And I think agencies are very good just in the way that they ask questions to the client to get to know the client, that it helps them to pull out a story that, that makes sense and communicate a strategic story to the client. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:04:36]: 

So what are we not doing? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:04:37]: 

Well, I would say like, you know, so my whole experience is very much shaped by how do we get the right information to drive strategy. And I, I don’t fault agencies with this because it is kind of complicated and historically it has, it has been very, very expensive and time intensive to get like all of the information, like have a full picture of, let’s say a consumer brand’s like ideal target market. What matters to them? Like all this detail. Yeah, and that’s where agencies have really struggled because a lot of clients, especially if you’re working with sort of a, a smaller brand or like a mid sized brand, they don’t Necessarily have the, the budget or the experience in going down an insights process to really get everything they need to drive like exponentially better strategy. So that’s sort of the gap that I see all the time. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:05:28]: 

Well, and I think in the past it’s just taken forever. Right. There’s so many different rabbit holes. You can go down and you can interview your client and all the stakeholders and you can do some Internet research and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you could even do third party research. But all of that takes time and money. And so I think you’re right. I think a lot of times agencies would do the best they could in the timeframe with the budget they had, but that was probably lacking. And so no surprise, you know, thanks to our friends at AI, wherever they may be, I think a lot of agencies have now said, okay, now I can get all of this like right off the bat. Right? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:06:10]: 

Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:06:10]: 

And there’s a flaw in that as well, right? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:06:13]: 

Yeah, there’s a bit of a flaw there. So it’s great that we now with AI have access to like any information that already exists is available to us. I think the challenge is for an agency, how do you know in advance and have a strategic and thoughtful process that you already know you’re going to go into to know like I need piece A, piece B, I don’t need this piece, I need this piece. I need all these different pieces of information. And how are you going to put all that together to actually form your strategic story or a perspective or a, an actual result for your client? So it went from like a desert almost to like a deluge in terms of like the instantaneousness of information. But not all of that information is good information. Even if it is factual, it’s not necessarily helpful. Like an example would be just to make it a little more concrete. Like you know, sometimes you’re working with a client that is a premium pasta, for example. Well, there’s a lot of data about pasta, but what drives behavior in the premium pasta category is not really well understood. It’s not available. It’s if you’re conflating pasta behavior with premium pasta, you’re going to come up with probably a very ineffective strategy. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:07:21]: 

So from your perspective, we went from takes forever, can’t possibly find it all to confined a volume of information in literally minutes. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:07:34]: 

Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:07:35]: 

What’s missing? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:07:36]: 

What’s missing is a methodology and sort of a standard that agency in the way they do their strategy work with their clients. Right. If you’re an agency that knows who your client is and you know the type of work you do for them. Right. So you’re pretty dialed in on your focus as a business. You can create a custom process that produces a really great strategic result because you have a standard by which you’re saying, oh, like I need the premium pasta information, not the pasta information. Therefore this thing I got in two seconds from AI does not meet my standard. I’m going to have to exclude that or I’m going to have to find a different way to get that sort of information. Or I’ll at least know if I didn’t get the information, what’s the assumption I’m making in place of that information? 

 

Drew McLellan [00:08:17]: 

So is it your perspective that an agency can have one process that works for everybody or do I have to stop and create a custom process for each project or client? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:08:33]: 

Yeah, so I would say it depends on if the agency is really focused on serving a specific type of client. Right. Like, and I’ve seen this in my own business and in all the businesses, right. If we’re trying to serve too many, too many different types of client, you’re going to have to have a slightly different process to produce the recommendations that result in success for that client. But my recommendation for all agencies is being like the queen of target markets over here and growth strategy is have a specific focus. So when you have that specific focus, your process should be the same process, but it is going to be flexible based on the inputs you’re getting at the beginning of that process, but from that particular client. Right. So the size of the client, you know, who they see as their competitors, what their specific challenges are, that would change some of the information that you go and maybe gather and look up or some of the way you interpret the information on the backside to produce a recommendation for the client. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:09:26]: 

So I just want to, for the listeners edification, here’s what I heard you say, which is Drew is right. You should have a niche. You should not be a serve all the butcher, baker and candlestick maker across multiple industries because you just make your business harder to manage and you have to have a bunch of different things rather than one, right? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:09:47]: 

Yes. Okay, 1,000%. And just to reinforce that, because I love that you say that, Drew, and I say that all the time too. It’s like imagine it from the client perspective. Would you ever advise a client to have a strategy of going after like, you know, businesses and consumers and anybody with a check like no, you would. You would want to focus your recommendation to them. So we need to adopt the same recommendation yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:10:11]: 

So I’m guessing then that the construct of the how we approach gathering these insights so we can build strategy is sort of. I’m going to build it as robust as possible and then I’m going to, depending on the ask from the client, pull parts out. Right. So I’m going to, I’m going to think about what are all the things that I could include in the information gathering and a strategy and then it’s easier to peel things away if the ask is more specific or smaller in scope or something like that, or is there a different way? So if an agency is like, okay, I am niched, but we don’t have a defined methodology for doing this, I need to build that. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:10:57]: 

Right. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:10:57]: 

How would you recommend they go about building that? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:10:59]: 

Yeah, for sure. So I think it’s about understanding or knowing for your client’s target market. Right. So like maybe it’s easier to talk through sort of a high level example here. But like let’s say you’re an agency that works with consumer brands, right. And you work with challenger consumer brands, ones that are not, you know, the P and G brands of the world, but they’re kind of that mid range. Right. So when you’re looking at starting an engagement with them or doing your annual planning with them, if they’ve been with you for a while, my advice to that agency would be you should know what are the four things or five things, Information, insights, data that you need to know in order to drive increasing success with that target market that your agency serves or sorry, that your client serves in the market. Right. So for example, if you’re working with the consumer brand, you want to make sure you understand factually, like who their target market is. That’s a big assumption that most clients will come to you and say, oh, I know that this is, you know, we think it’s this. Well, anytime you hear the word think, that’s a red flag. We should, as an agency, you want to validate that or know in advance and come to them and be a thought leader. And I think this is where agencies can, especially now with where the market, where things are going with clients and working with clients like they expect you to know more than they do oftentimes and bring that thought leadership in. So I would advise an agency. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:12:22]: 

And that’s what we sell, Right? Right. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:12:24]: 

Exactly right. So I would advise an agency to say, you know, for every consumer brand that we’re helping, we need to know who their target market is with actual validated fact. We need to know if that target market is big enough or where we can capitalize on that target market enough to grow the brand in the way that the client expects us to. Right. Like there’s some fundamental, and I could go on and on, but there’s kind of like, I would say five or six pieces of almost like principles or thought leadership or standards. However we want to frame that, that your agency needs to, to say we’re doing this with every client, you know. Right. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:12:57]: 

So when you do this work and a client goes, no, really, this is our audience, we know. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:13:02]: 

Yeah, yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:13:04]: 

How do you respectfully push back? Or if they say we don’t have the data to support it, we just know. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:13:11]: 

Right. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:13:11]: 

Like we don’t, we don’t keep the kind of data that we should, which many clients don’t. We don’t have a way to access the data in a really meaningful way. Right. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:13:21]: 

So yeah, so I’m very focused on in that actual conversation, if it’s possible, with a very neutral curiosity. So again, not disrespecting them or challenging them, but to say, like, how do you know that? Like, I would love to learn more about what you all have done to know that. And then when they, if and when they say, oh, I basically guessed right, like simplifying that, I usually pivot into, okay, well what are the risks that you’re taking on by guessing right? Like, and really kind of helping them to have that understanding of like the missing information is driving real consequence in their actual go to market execution. So if we think it’s parents, but we don’t know for sure that it’s parents. And also maybe we’ve built a brand with a specific market, but we’re trying to grow a lot. Maybe that market that got us here isn’t the right one that’s going to get us to the next level. Right. And with that, if we make assumptions, what is the actual risk? And I mean you can model out cost like dollar wise, like what the risk is, you know, in, in doing that. And I’ve found that to be very effective with clients. It is kind of a different relationship than many, you know, agencies have with their clients though, because you have to be that leader and you have to hold them to that standard and find a way to kind of educate them and do it in a way that’s, you know, effective and polite. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:14:39]: 

So as you know, what clients are looking for from agencies, if they’re talking about strategy, is they want to understand what data did you use, what insights did you have to come up with the strategy? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:14:53]: 

Yep. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:14:54]: 

And then how is that strategy going to drive the KPIs that I’m being held accountable for as a CMO or whatever the title is. But also, clients often do not leave room in the budget to do this work. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:15:10]: 

Right. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:15:11]: 

So how do you recommend that agencies have that conversation with clients when they’re, when we know we’re going to be held accountable to the KPIs, but the client cannot provide enough data for us to actually be able to do the insight work that we need to do to come up with the right strategies and then tie them to measurable KPIs. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:15:32]: 

Yeah, absolutely. Great question. So I think it’s really two things. First, it’s, if possible or in whatever way we can, how can we set the expectation that Insights work is just a part of the discovery process or sort of the strategy process that we have as an agency? It’s not like an add on. It’s not this. We might do it if we feel like, if we feel like our 10 conversations with your internal stakeholders didn’t, you know, it’s like this is just part of our process. And I think that is also very differentiated. For an agency to go in like that and set that expectation, it definitely sets them apart because 90% percent of agencies that I know of, it’s kind of like an optional thing, right? So that’s one piece of advice that I see working very well. And then on the other side of it, I think it’s about the agency also looking at a little more analytically, like what is the cost to the agency if the Insights work isn’t done at the right moment in the strategy development process and in the right way, that cost could be, you know, one, a client success cost of like we don’t get the client to the results, et cetera, et cetera, which is a huge reputational risk, it’s a huge financial risk. You’re gonna have churn with that client, et cetera. And then the other side of it is just like, what are people doing in place of robust research, right? Like, are they, you know, are they spending 20 hours doing desk research and trying to chat GPT their way into something meaningful? And, and then what kind of a conversation with a client does that result in? Because the other problem is, like you said, clients want to see the sources cited and they want to feel like it’s good, right? Really tight. And if the agency says, well, we got this from a bunch of different sources and all that, you’re just putting swirl into the strategic decision making process and how many hours are we going to be also billables, Are we going to be on the phone with the client about things, following up on that. So there’s sometimes a way to kind of associate the cost of the insights almost with the cost. It’s like part of ensuring the agency’s success in the engagement with the client. So it’s not a cost that kind of goes to the client, but it’s more what the agency invests in to ensure results. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:17:44]: 

But the reality is you’re going to be gathering it from a bunch of different places, right? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:17:49]: 

Potentially, yeah. I mean, in the work we do, like for consumer brands, they usually don’t have to go outside of that, but like, you know, for B2B or something like that, you would have to get multiple sources together. Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:18:02]: 

So that by itself is not, as you say, kind of creating the swirl. We just have to be able to cite what the resources were. Right. We have to be able to say, look, we found three research pieces. We did this, we did that, we did that. Right. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:18:16]: 

Yeah. But I think, Drew, the challenge is when the pieces of information that exist are just not high credibility, high quality. Right. And sometimes that’s where agencies are, is that’s all the options they have to put in front of a client is something that was pre pandemic, for example, behavior has changed drastically. Right. Or it’s the example of the pasta versus premium pasta. And so when no information, no factually substantiated information exists, that’s when I think the swirl comes in. Because agencies have to use something that’s partial. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:18:48]: 

So how do you fix that? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:18:50]: 

Yeah, so I think, you know, like the way I work on this is to really focus on what are knowing for a particular type of market, what are the things I need to know. And then having a plan, a preexisting plan for how I’m going to get that information every single time. Right. So for consumer, that can look like a survey. Oftentimes for B2B, that could look like some sort of qualitative research. Again, we can use AI tools with all of that stuff and really make it very systematic. Because ultimately, like if you’re working with the same kind of client all the time, you’re, you’re knowing what are the five levers I need to drive the results with that client? I just need to get that information. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:19:28]: 

Okay. So I’m going to start with a robust plan of all the types of information I might need. And then depending on the deliverable or the client or the budget or the KPIs or the scope or all of those things. I’m going to decide which of those makes sense. And then I’m going to identify the sources where I’m going to get that information. Right. And then I’m going to use that. So now I have all that compiled information which leads to the insight. Yes. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:19:56]: 

Yes. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:19:57]: 

Okay, we need to take a break, but when we come back, I want to talk about how do I know what that laundry list of kinds of information I need are? How do I think about building out that construct? So let’s take a quick break and then. And then we’ll come right back. Are you tired of juggling multiple tools to manage your agency? Meet Deltech Workbook the all in one solution for marketing and communications agencies. Streamline your projects, resources and finances all in one place. With real time dashboards and reporting, you’ll have full project visibility. You can plan team capacity weeks ahead to avoid bottlenecks and keep your budgets on track to maximize profitability. It’s perfect for both agencies and in house marketing teams looking to work more efficiently. PCI is a certified Deltec partner offering expert implementation and support to ensure your success. If you’re ready to transform your operations, visit PCI Us Podcast for a free consultation today. Hey everybody. Just want to remind you before we get back to the show that we have a very engaged Facebook group. It’s a private group just for podcast listeners and agency owners that are in the AMI community. And to find it, if you’re not a member, head over to facebook.comgroups/b a b a podcast. So again, facebook.comgroups/bab podcast. All you have to do is answer a few questions to make sure that you are an actual agency owner or leader and we will let you right in. And you can join over 1700 other agency owners and leaders. And I’m telling you, there’s probably 10 or 15 conversations that are started every day that are going to be of value to you. So come join us. All right, we are back and we are talking about how agencies have to approach building strategy for clients. And you know, before the break we talked about how critical this is. It’s the one part of our work that doesn’t get commoditized. And Ana has been saying, you know, yes, but a number one, sometimes clients don’t want to pay for it or don’t allow even that. Sometimes it’s the timeline, right? They don’t allow us the time to do it. So from your perspective, one of the challenges that agencies face is they don’t have a defined methodology of how they approach this. We agree loudly and enthusiastically that this is easier if the agency is niched and not a generalist. So right before the break I said, all right, great, I’m a niche agency. I’m probably, if I’m a list, if I’m listening to this podcast, I’m probably, I probably lean towards B2B more than B2C small to mid sized. I need to build out this methodology. So how would we begin to think about if I’m, if I’m going to build the supernova of information gathering, which I know I can pull apart if I need to, or I can simplify if I need to, how do I start thinking about what are, are the possible types of information that I should be thinking about and how do I think about where to find, to your point, reliable data that is relevant, but also in the last couple years, as opposed to, you know, from 1987. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:23:18]: 

Right, for sure. So let’s start, start with the first thing. So my point of view is that it all starts with the target market. I think that agencies, their first step with any client they work with needs to be to validate that the target market everyone thinks they have or might be or is. They need to validate that that market actually has interest, has capacity to purchase. Whether that’s as an individual, as a business, like it’s the right market for that client and what their goals are and what their result they’re trying to drive in market. So that’s the first sort of piece that agencies really need to understand. It’s validating the target market. It’s not all the details about them yet. It’s validating that there’s pain, there’s problem, there’s something we can do to solve it and really focusing in on validation. Once we’ve got a validated target market, or in the case of a slightly larger business, there might be two or three adjacent target markets that they’re going after. We want to actually really deeply understand that market. So I believe that first party, like the closest you can get to the actual customer is the best way to do things right. Like we can read, you know, economic studies and industry trends and all that, and that’s important context. But actually getting information from that target market, now that we’ve very specifically defined it makes it easier as well, is a crucial step that an agency needs to have. Now to answer your second question within there, Drew, there’s a lot of ways an agency could go about that. Nowadays you can use AI tools to pull instantly what might exist. Pew Research did a study on smartphone owners. Whatever, that’s definite information. But there’s also sort of internal, internal processes and mechanisms that an agency can have as part of what they tell clients. We’re going to just do this, right? We’re going to go talk to five customers or 10 customers or whatever. And all the agency really needs in that case is to have a list of questions they ask that actually produce sort of the insights they need. Right. To develop their strategy. So again, we’re kind of planning into that. And then, you know, I think for B2B versus consumer, it’s slightly different what you need after that, because B2B decision making, it is all decision making is emotional, but B2B decision making has a little bit more of a rational element. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:25:38]: 

For sure. I have to justify it to someone. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:25:40]: 

Yeah, Exactly. So with B2B, you’re really trying to understand what is that Persona, like what is the deal path like sort of what are the mechanics of closing that deal for that for your clients, you know, target market, whereas consumer, it is more emotionally driven. You still want to understand that buyer’s journey, but you also want to understand a lot more about the emotional drivers that contribute to interest and to purchase in that particular category. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:26:10]: 

And is it your position that is better when it’s a mix of other people’s research, like you said Pew Institute or something like that, and we talk to five customers or we, you know, we went on sales calls with your salespeople? Or is the output better when we have a broader mix of inputs? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:26:36]: 

The output is better when there definitely is some form of like new research that is the agency or someone representing them communicating directly with a customer base. Like 100% certainty with that whether there is context that is applicable, like all this other stuff, it really depends on who is your client targeting. And so I would rather see an agency know quickly with. But just by knowing the brand that they’re prosper, like that’s their prospect. I would rather them immediately go and look up that context stuff and have it and maybe use it to support sort of pitch conversations and, and then turn then know already, like what’s our plan for this client to get the information like from their customer base directly. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:27:22]: 

Right now, what about competitive information and insight? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:27:27]: 

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think competitive intel is super important, especially right now because there’s so many, like the many, many industries and markets are very fragmented, so there’s just a lot of competition. The barriers to entry into a market are very Low. So it’s important that competitive research is done for sure. I think what’s important to pair with that though is what is the value proposition of my clients offerings and their business and where do they stand? Competitive intel is not useful on its own just to have. It’s only useful if you also know the same things that you’re looking up for a competitor about your client’s brand. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:28:06]: 

Well, you’re looking, I think for the, you’re looking for that moment in the grid where we do something they don’t do. And again, whether that’s a product, a service, a building of a community, customer service, whatever it is, we’re different than them in this way, right? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:28:26]: 

Yeah, absolutely. And you also want to pair that with. Again, I sound like we’re going to record with target market. But if you also know where the target market is on all of those things, this is where agencies and clients can create new and differentiated things that are not really based on what the white space is in the current landscape of competitiveness. It’s also like net incremental but very resonant to the market. Right. So and I think that’s a piece that especially for if you’re working with clients that are more of a mid and clients that are more of a mid sized company and they’re trying to scale up, that’s the thing that you need to do to break through the competition in that market. And, and I think a lot of times we’re all trying to like look at what everyone else is doing and find the white space. But in fact we need to find the white space with the end buyer, which is a slightly different exercise. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:29:13]: 

Okay. So now I have all this information, right. I got all this information. It’s overwhelming. I got to figure out what matters and what doesn’t matter. So if I’m a strategist in an agency. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:29:26]: 

Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:29:27]: 

And there’s this pool, one might call it even a cesspool of information. How do I kind of dig through it to find the right information and know that I am using the right parts and pieces? Because to your point, it is not hard to get a lot of information today. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:29:46]: 

Right? Yeah. And so I think Drew, like, you know, while I would hope it’s not a cesspool, right. I would hope that it’s a little more organized and structured. Again, this is sort of my advice. Right. I would hope it’s more, more organized and structured because I don’t know about you, but I don’t have time, I don’t know any brand strategist with any amount of time. So we need to be only going and getting information that we know is useful, first of all. Second of all, once we get that information, how do we organize it into a story? Maybe as we gather it, that’s what I recommend people do. And then how do we interpret that information and get again, the skills? And it is a skill. If we’re doing the same thing over and over, process wise, we will develop a much more effective skill to sort through that information, that giant amount of folders of things. Right. And be able to tell the story out of it. Right. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:30:36]: 

Because it’s also a productivity issue too. Right. If I, if I’m splashing around in this information for too long. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:30:43]: 

Right, right. Yeah. And I think that’s, that’s the other thing that can be kind of a challenge for strategists is very curious people, which I love that. Right. When I’m, I’m like, oh my gosh, like so many cool things, I got all these ideas, like, I want to do the things. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:30:57]: 

Right. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:30:58]: 

How do you balance that with, you know, all the other responsibilities you have on your plate, all the other things you need? How do you get out of that analysis and into a structured output? Right, right, right. And so I think, like, what I know for sure throughout all my many years of doing this type of work is the more you focus on what are my standards and principles for this process that I’m going to go through over and over and over again, the faster you can get through every step. Right. There could be a checklist that you have. Like, I define, I validate the target market. Did I do it or didn’t I do it? Right. What is that standard? And I can be very like, directive with my clients about this. I’m like, either it is or it isn’t. Right. And that’s how strategists can. They can use the same sort of directiveness on themselves, I think. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:31:45]: 

So you said it’s a skill. How would you define the skill? Like, if I look in the mirror, how do I know if I have it or don’t? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:31:54]: 

Yeah. So I would define, maybe let’s define the skill as insights driven storytelling. If that lands with you, I would say you have the skill. If you can look at five or ten pieces of information and sort of be able to tell someone who hasn’t looked at that information, what is the net net result? What’s the result of that information? Right. Like, what does it mean? I don’t think it’s like this. I think most People that are in strategy roles have the skill already. Like, I think it’s necessary, if that makes sense. I think where the skill can improve is how do I get faster and more precise at what information I’m looking at and how am I making better meaning out of that? And frankly, swinging bigger for clients sometimes. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:32:44]: 

Talk a little bit more about that. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:32:46]: 

I think sometimes when we don’t have the right information or it’s like kind of weak, weaker information, like it’s further in the past or it’s not exactly assumptions or. Right, yeah, there’s some assumptions. If we don’t have the right information, we might say to a client, something more conservative. We might say, you know, you could kind of go this way or you could kind of go that way. And like, you know, based on our experience, like, maybe we go the option B. Right, right. Whereas if you feel much more confident and clear about the information, you’re not. You’re just like, this is what you should do. And here’s why. Like point blank, this is why. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:33:20]: 

So you can be more definitive and confident in your answer, which obviously is part of what clients want from us. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:33:27]: 

Exactly. Yeah. And I think that’s where, like sometimes when, when a strategist or a team presents strategy work to a client, there’s issues down the line. Let’s say they’re a creative agency, right. And they present sort of, this is what we think you should do. This is what you need to focus on. And they’re a little wishy washy about it. Then when they get into actually producing creative, the client’s coming back and saying, well, like, I don’t know about this, and they’re in this, like, swirl down in that part of the process. Well, had we been able to be more confident in saying this is the direction and this is why we’re, we’re going to prevent having that challenge later with the client. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:34:01]: 

So if I’m a strategist and I have the skill, is this a measure twice cut once is the reason why I’m not better at it because I didn’t build out a methodology on the front end to move myself through it in a more efficient way? Or is there something else that keeps me from being as good at this as I could or should be? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:34:26]: 

It’s two things. It is the first thing that you said, which is, and I think this is a huge driver. So I would say this is the primary driver of not having a very defined methodology. And when you have a defined methodology, you have standards inherently, you don’t let Certain things out the door that don’t match with what methodology you have. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:34:44]: 

So give us an example of a standard. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:34:46]: 

Yeah, so a standard in market research would be like, I am not going to rely on my client’s sales calls as like the only source of information about their target market. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:35:02]: 

Okay. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:35:02]: 

Right. Because that’s a very biased. Like that’s a very biased type of thing. Very helpful, but also very biased because they already know about the client, all that stuff. Right. So if I know that in order to validate a target market, my standard is that I need to have information directly from that market that is not biased by awareness of my client and their business. That would be a standard I have to uphold. And that’s going to produce so much better information for me in my strategy development process. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:35:34]: 

Okay, so one of the problem, one of the reasons why we’re not better at this is because either we have no methodology at all or our methodology is flawed. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:35:42]: 

Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:35:43]: 

And you said that’s the primary reason why we get caught up in it and we don’t do it as efficiently or effectively as we could. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:35:51]: 

It’s like shaping the methodology to like, what information we have versus keeping the methodology the same and shaping the information to the methodology. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:35:59]: 

Going and finding whatever actually. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:36:02]: 

Exactly. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:36:02]: 

Checks the box appropriately. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:36:04]: 

Exactly. And sometimes, and again, I don’t want to say this in like an absolute way, sometimes there is not a way with time and everything to get it. But just at least being able to state very clearly that is an assumption I’m making versus, like, I just shape my process every time. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:36:17]: 

So what you’re saying is, okay, our recommendations are what they are based on this. Here are the five things we know for sure. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:36:23]: 

Right. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:36:24]: 

And here are the three things that we’re pretty sure about. We’ve made some assumptions about based on this information or this source, but we don’t feel like it’s so pristine we can say it’s factual. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:36:36]: 

Right? 

 

Drew McLellan [00:36:37]: 

Okay. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:36:37]: 

Yep, absolutely. And I also think to our earlier part of our conversation where we’re talking about how do you bring up insights, work with a client if you have a defined methodology? And I literally will show clients like a table with like checks and X’s in it. Right. Like, we had this, we didn’t have this, we had partial. That that’s a good way to show them, you know, this is the consequence and why proceeding from here is a little bit more risky than if we spent a little more time, we spent an extra week or whatever it is really, really refining some of the things we need Right. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:37:09]: 

Okay. So if the lack of methodology is one reason why we’re not as good at this as the other. You said there were two, what’s the second? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:37:17]: 

The second is really. And it maybe it connects directly into the standards thing. It’s the sources of information. Right. I think that anyone who’s been sort of doing marketing for decades, right. Like, and everyone who listens to this is like an expert in their field, they’ve been doing it for many years. You’re kind of like not necessarily keeping up with the trends of what’s changing and how easy is it to access some of this information now? Right. So we might default to like desktop research or you know, like a Google search or ChatGPT deep research type of a thing because that’s what we’ve been doing for the last 10, 15 years. But now you can actually get custom to brand, custom to client insights in a week or less that really drive the whole thing. So it’s about helping agencies to, when they’re looking at this methodology, they’re establishing this methodology, what are the tools that we’re going to use to do this? Right. And kind of having that already planned out, I think makes it easier to also then fit it to your client’s budget or fit it to the timeline you have, you know, and be a little more prepared with how you’re going to execute on this methodology. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:38:24]: 

So that is a great point. So how does an agency begin to identify reliable. So for example, you said I need to get some data around clients, customers, I can do that in a week or less. How do I validate the methodology? I think I is appropriate to get that information. How do I know like the right. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:38:47]: 

Way, like which tools to use? Yeah, for sure. So the first thing is it’s kind of like when we were all back in college or high school. It’s like cite your sources. Right. So let’s make sure we’re getting information where the sources are not just cited, but we can actually see what those sources are and do a double check that those are correct. So if you’re using an AI tool, if you’re using even just a, you know, an online search, whatever it might be, let’s make sure those sources are cited and citable. And then let’s also look at those sources and make sure that that is, there wasn’t any misinterpretation because that can sometimes happen. Right. We get the 2019 report is attached with a 2023 citation or something like that, right? 

 

Drew McLellan [00:39:30]: 

Yep. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:39:31]: 

So citing sources and then the other thing to look at is again this, this kind of through line of like when you do great strategy work as an agency with a client, you make sure your client has a very specifically defined target market or multiple adjacent target markets. That’s just my belief. So if you’re doing that already, you should be checking all of the sources of information to make sure they’re relevant and they’re actually from that target market and not like some other conflated thing. And then when it comes to like AI driven tools, the more tools you can use or services that you can use that provide net new data, so it’s new information that’s being gathered from a very specific target market or population, those are going to be higher quality generally if the right questions are being asked. But again, you should be able to see what that provider is offering versus what your strategy methodology is that you now have. And you should be able to compare do they give me everything or most of what I need for me to do my strategy process. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:40:32]: 

So give us an example of a tool like that that is getting sort of real time data. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:40:37]: 

Like that’s actually getting net new data. Yeah, yeah. Are you okay for me to talk about my service? Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. So we have a service called Telemetry and what we do is we take in a bunch of information from the client, from what their brand is, all their competitors, all this stuff, and then we actually produce a custom to brand, custom to market survey and we go and execute that survey really rapidly and then we bring it back, we analyze it super fast and then we give our clients, hey, this is the target market you should have. This is the positioning and category behavior that you should know about. Like you should be talking about these emotional factors with this type of target market, blah, blah, blah. Like we give them the whole thing and we give them a bunch of strategy materials that they can use with their clients directly. So that type of a service is like, I’m not using Google at any point in that service. I’m going and talking to married urbanites or parents 25 to 44 or whatever the case may be to get that net new data. And I think there’s going to be more and more services like that because precision really, really matters to actually succeed in growth marketing right now or all the time, but especially now with how fast things change. And if you’re not precise to the brand level, it really kind of falls, kind of falls apart. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:41:59]: 

Yeah. Today it can’t be. I mean personalization comes into play at so many different levels. At so many different kinds of personalization, right? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:42:08]: 

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And even within a target market. Right. We should be looking at like what are the different sort of. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:42:13]: 

Right. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:42:14]: 

Upsets within there and sort of motivators, drivers, all that good stuff. Yeah, for sure. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:42:19]: 

So from your perspective, let’s say we’ve defined our methodology, we followed the methodology, 3/4 of the boxes we could check. The other ones were making assumptions about what does the deliverable look like to the client. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:42:36]: 

I think there’s a lot of frameworks that exist. There’s the four Cs and there’s all this. Every agency has their own spin on it. I think the most effective deliverable at the highest level it says, one, we confidently know who we’re serving. Two, we know what our company, our brand is doing that is the best thing for that client, like that end customer in that particular scenario. And then we also know sort of where we need to stand versus our competitors. And we also are really clear on what activates that target market in relation to our category that we sell in. Right. And activating as in moves them down the purchase journey, which I think also sometimes I’ve just seen a lot of like, oh, we got this high level, like this is the pretty picture. But I’m always like, how. So how are you going to take that knowledge and show your client that you know how to move someone from not aware all the way down to purchase? Right. And loyally purchasing. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:43:39]: 

And from your perspective, when a client gets, when you, when you walk a client through that and they go, no, that’s not right. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:43:47]: 

Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:43:48]: 

Which I’m sure has happened to you before. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:43:49]: 

Yeah. Oh, it’s happened. Those are some of my favorite moments actually. But yeah, ask your question. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:43:57]: 

Which makes you, I think a masochist. But okay, so how do you recommend that an agency respond to that when you have data? Yeah, you know, because clients believe what they believe about their product, their marketplace, their whatever. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:44:11]: 

Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:44:11]: 

So when you have that data and the client goes, no, I mean this part’s right, but that is not right. And I know this because my grandma, blah, blah, you know, we’ve all had that conversation. How do you, how do you recommend agencies handle that? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:44:24]: 

Yeah, for sure. And I guess I did make, you know, very glib. I love those conversations. But like, I’ll tell you why. Right. Because I think that when, when we present a very thoughtful, data driven story to a client, it really creates this window into what is rational within them and then what is more emotive within them. Right. And that is such an important thing to know about as soon as possible. I would love to know that in the sales process, not even to mention just at the very beginning. I don’t see that as an. I do understand that sometimes it can be heated. It could be tense, or there could be, you know, whatever. I think it’s the most clarifying thing for, you know, an agency owner, a strategist, whoever’s leading that account, because then you sort of know, how do I want to manage that client as I continue the relationship with them? So conflict early actually breeds sort of a greater opportunity to create a better partnership and success. So that’s my, like, psa, like, don’t avoid the conflict. But two, in a more practical sense, I think this is where agencies can say very neutrally and truthfully, well, I totally understand why you believe that. Like, we believe this thing. If you’d like us to proceed, like, here’s the ways we can proceed under your assumptions, and here’s the ways we’re not really comfortable proceeding under your assumptions. Right. And I would rather walk away, and this is for my own clients when we do projects, I would rather walk away from a deal and cancel the thing than have a client that’s going to be totally intractable. I do think most clients do come around and they do start to see the results of your work, and they start to go, oh, maybe they are right. And they kind of come. Come back around. So, sure. Yeah, sure. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:46:04]: 

This is fascinating. If, if somebody’s listening to this and they are like, yeah, we, we need to improve. Like, my strategists are a bottleneck. My strategists do get sort of caught up in this sort of paralysis analysis of there’s so much data we have to have this methodology or whatever. How do I start? Like, what’s the. What’s the starting point as we wrap up this conversation? I mean, I know I feel like we’ve just scratched the surface, but I want to give them something tangible to go do. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:46:35]: 

Yeah, for sure. So I would look at after your current strategy process, after that is complete, what are the things you’re pulling out of your deck, your documents, whatever you created in that strategy process, what are you exactly pulling out of there and using in the next part of your process? And again, that’s going to depend on what type of agency you are, what type of clients you have, all that other stuff, whatever you’re actually using. Because again, sometimes we’re putting stuff in there just to show understanding whatever you’re actually using. I would look I would do almost like a scorecard for myself. Like, how rigorous is that information? Right. Like, look at. Just take one example of the last time you did a strategy project or discovery brief for your client. How rigorous was that information? And how could I make it more rigorous? That’s where I would start. So I would start with what you’re actually using, and I would start to think about how I could make that better. Once you get that architecture out, most strategists are very strategic. You start to see kind of a shape forming, and you go straight, oh, it’s a Dragon. Like, I can make it into the best Dragon ever. Right. So I think that’s just where to start. Because to your point earlier, it can be very overwhelming to try to look at everything you put into your last 10 decks and go, I don’t know what to do. Right. Instead. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:47:46]: 

Right. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:47:46]: 

Start with what you use and then work backwards. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:47:49]: 

All right, last question. And then. Then I will let you go. How do we budget for this? How do we know how much time to allot for this? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:47:56]: 

Yeah, so I know I’m a broken record, but it will. It does get easier when you have a very defined client, like a target market that you work with. Right. Because then it’s very standard. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:48:06]: 

So what you’re saying, niching is important. I just want to underscore that. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:48:09]: 

Just to say that again, Drew. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:48:10]: 

Yeah. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:48:11]: 

Niching down is extraordinarily important. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:48:14]: 

They get so tired of hearing it from me that whenever anybody else says it, I like to underline it a couple times. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:48:19]: 

And I’m happy to say it because it’s just. It’s just like, literally my entire career is about helping end clients just niche down so far that they just, like, win. And agencies love when their clients win. So I’m like, come on, you can do it too. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:48:33]: 

Take that final step. You can do it. Right? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:48:36]: 

Yeah. Anyway, okay, so I would say once you. Once you have more of a defined process around this, it’s generally going to be the same amount of time when it comes. Do you mean, like, budgeting? Like, with a client? Like, how much do you charge them? Or do you mean more just, like, time? 

 

Drew McLellan [00:48:50]: 

Like, how do I figure out what’s an appropriate amount of time? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:48:53]: 

Gotcha. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:48:54]: 

Because that will lead to a client budget, right? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:48:56]: 

Yep. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:48:57]: 

Investment of time on the new business front if. If I don’t have the client yet. But how do I know? Because you could do this forever. Like, you could just stay in the information gathering and studying part forever. And strategists love to do that, so if the, if the listener is an agency owner and let’s say they’re not the strategist and they’re like, oh my God, these people take forever. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:49:17]: 

Like, yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:49:17]: 

What’s an appropriate way to think about how much time? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:49:22]: 

I’m always thinking about what’s the minimum, like standard I’m trying to meet as opposed to like the maximum amount of info I can gather. So when it comes to. And then I’m also thinking about what are the tools or services or resources I can use to make this faster for me. Right. It may cost a couple hundred dollars, a couple thousand dollars, again, it could range. But what could I do to make this faster for me as a strategist? I would say, like, I would love to see it be done in like 5 to 10 total hours of your time would be great. Again, sometimes it’s not realistic, you know. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:49:56]: 

Is that including the gathering? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:49:59]: 

Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:49:59]: 

Okay. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:50:00]: 

Yeah. Because again, if you’re deploying certain tools as well, that’s going to save you a lot of time of your personal time. Right. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:50:06]: 

So, so okay, so let’s say it’s going to take 10 hours. What is a reasonable ballpark for hard cost investment then? If I’m using other tools and things like that, do you think? 

 

Ana Laskey [00:50:17]: 

Yeah. So if you’re going to spend 10 hours, again, I think it varies very different. Consumer versus B2B for consumer, I would say probably between 5 and $10,000 as a hard cost. If you want to get like a really robust piece of information. If you’re doing more desk research, it’s going to take you more time. So you’re going to trade that time into. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:50:41]: 

That’s what I was, I was just going to say we’re swapping time for hard cost. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:50:45]: 

Yeah, yeah. And I think for owners, this is the thing to be looking at specifically is like, what’s my hard cost versus my, my billable cost for those people. But anyway, so. And then for B2B, I would say it’s a little bit more time usually because there’s not as many turnkey services like you may need to actually get on the phone yourself as a strategist to really understand the market, things like that. But that may be more time. You know, things are changing so fast. Right. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:51:11]: 

It’s crazy. It’s true. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:51:12]: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:51:13]: 

This has been, this has been really helpful. Thank you for spending the hour with us talking about this. If folks want to learn more about your organization, how you come alongside agencies, what’s the best way for them to. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:51:27]: 

Dig into that Absolutely. You can go to Ana Bio. So that’s A N, A B, I, O. And I’ve got all the links. All the things are right there. And then my company is called Ground Control Research. So if folks want to look us up on the Internet or LinkedIn, we’re there too. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:51:43]: 

Okay, this has been super helpful. Thank you. 

 

Ana Laskey [00:51:45]: 

Thanks, Drew. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:51:47]: 

All right, so some homework and some takeaways from this I think all of you need to be thinking about, because, honestly, Ana surprised me with the five to 10 hours. So as you were listening to this, you were probably like, oh, my God, this is going to take forever. It’s going to cost so much money. And I think the message there is with a methodology, with a game plan, with a blueprint, you can get to what you need faster because you know what to get. And again, not to beat the dead horse, but if you’re niched, you probably know where to go get it, right? So it’s, I know what I need to know. I know the tools that can get me that information. And now I’m just refining what I’m looking for based on the specific brand or client that I’m serving. So all of that said, I think it would be an amazing sort of exercise to bring your strategists and your account people together and say, all right, if we had all the information we needed to have amazing insights for clients, let’s make a list of everything that would be great to have, knowing that you’re never gonna have all of it. But let’s start with the. With the whole what would be great to have. Then I would go to the creatives or the production folks and say, all right, if we’re gonna ask you to participate in a new business pitch, and you could have any information you want about the client or the marketplace, what would you wanna know? I would just, like, create that library of questions or topics or typ and then maybe prioritize it in it. We always have to have this. It would be really helpful most of the time to have this. And sometimes if a client’s big enough or the budget’s big enough or whatever, it would be really cool to have this and then start identifying sources. Like, maybe it’s. Maybe it’s that methodology that just gets you thinking a little differently about how you approach strategy with clients. And everything Ana has been saying aligns beautifully with what you’ve heard Mercer Island Group say in the past on their podcast, or if you’ve come to the workshop around building strategic insights and remember what they say is they’re in the room. They’re a search firm. So they’re seeing agencies pitch all the time. Big agencies, small agencies. What they say is missing is the strategy and the story that explains the strategy that then ties to the tactics. And so if you combine what Ana’s saying to you with what Mercer Island Group has been saying to us for years, this is a pretty compelling argument for all of us that this is. This is what we need to be doing. And between those two resources that we know and trust, they’re telling us how to do it. So this is not a, you know, just sit and listen episode. This is a go do something episode. This is a change something in your agency episode. So do not, like, leave this episode without scheduling that little brainstorming session on the calendar with your team and get it going. All right? So please, please, please put this into practice. A couple other things before I let you go. First of all, I love hanging out with you every week. I know that we get to do all kinds of things together. I know that I’m golfing with Eric, and I know I’m walking Rosemary’s dog with her. And I think I’m putting on makeup with a couple of you. So however you consume this content, I am just really grateful you keep coming back because you afford me the opportunity to meet and interview and learn from smart people like Ana. So I am grateful that we get to serve you this way. So thank you for that. And of course, none of this is possible without our friends at White Label iq. As you know, they are the presenting sponsor of this podcast. So head over to whitelabeliq.com ami and if nothing else, send them a note and say, thanks for sponsoring the podcast. But while you’re there, check out how they do white label design, dev and PPC for agencies that look just like yours. I don’t care where you are on the globe. I don’t care how big you are. I promise you they work with an agency just like you to delight clients every day. So check them out as well. All right? With that, I’m going to let you get back to work. Thanks for listening. I’ll be back next week. Hope you will, too. So have a great week. Talk to you soon. That’s a wrap for this week’s episode of Build a better agency. Visit agencymanagementinstitute.com to check out our workshops, coaching and consulting packages and all the other ways we serve agencies just like yours. Thanks for listening.