Adapting Public Relations for the Modern World with Ryan Gerding

Drew McLellan: 

Running an agency can be a lonely proposition, but it doesn’t have to be. We can learn how to be better faster if we learn together. Welcome to Agency Management Institute’s Build a Better Agency Podcast presented by White Label iq. Tune in every week for insights on how small to mid sized agencies are surviving and thriving in today’s market. With 25 plus years of experience as both an agency owner and agency consultant, please welcome welcome your host, Drew McClellan. 

Drew McLellan: 

Hey everybody, Drew Mclellan here from agency Management Institute rounding the bend with yet another episode of Build a Better Agency. Super glad to have you here as we March towards the 500th episode of the podcast. So it’s hard to believe we’ve been doing this for as long as we have together. So I am super grateful that you hang out with us every week and that I have the opportunity to meet some amazing guests. Before I tell you bit about today’s guests and what we’re going to talk about, I do want to remind you if you’re listening to this in real time. So this would be mid April. For those of you that are listening in real time, we’re a month away from the Build a Better Agency Summit. It’s our annual conference. We bring 400 agency owners and leaders together to learn together. We talk about leadership, we talk about biz dev, we talk about financial issues, we talk about team members and growing the team. We talk obviously we’re talking a ton about AI and how that’s impacting agencies. Tom we’re going to talk about financial reporting. We’re going to talk about how to leverage having a great COO and what that might mean to your agency. We’ve got all kinds of topics, we’ve got keynotes, we’ve got breakouts. We have over 30 roundtables where you’re going to sit around on a topic of your choosing to talk to other agency owners about how they’re approaching. It could be anything from taxes to cash flow to getting ready to sell your agency, to growing a leadership team. We’ve got all kinds of topics. So it is two days of full on drink from a fire hose learning. The dates are May 20th and 21st in Denver and we have about a hundred tickets left. So if you are thinking you want to go, you might want to grab your ticket before we sell out. If you are a member of AMI, you know that you can come on the 19th to member day. That’s a half day of content just for our members. So right now, honestly, becoming a Platinum member is cheaper than buying a Summit ticket, you can become a Platinum member, which allows you one ticket to the Summit. So you get membership and a ticket to the Summit for less than the ticket price of the actual Summit is right now. So obviously that seems like the right way to do that if you are inclined to do that. So head over to agencymanagementinstitute.com and right in the upper left corner you’re going to see Baba Summit. Click on that link on that navigation and it’ll take you right to the information page, the registration page. We would love to have you join us. So we have a lot of repeat people who come back year after year and will tell you it’s one of the best things they do all year long. We would love for you to have that experience as well. All right, in the meantime, let’s talk about what we’re going to do today. So today our guest is a gentleman named Ryan Gerding. Ryan is the CEO of a PR firm out of Kansas City called Inc. Inc. So Ink I N C. And I want to talk to Ryan today about sort of the state of pr. What does PR look like today versus what it was? You know, back in the day, when I was in school, PR was media relations. That’s really all it was. And as we all know today, it’s much more vast than that. There’s lots of ways for PR firms to come alongside their clients and be helpful. So I want to explore a little bit about how the industry of PR has changed, but also I want to pick Ryan’s brain on behalf of all of us in terms of how do we leverage getting media content, how do we get seen as a media expert, how do we think about preparing our clients if they want to be in front of reporters? So we’re going to get into all of that. And so without further ado, let’s welcome Ryan to the show. Ryan, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us. 

Ryan Gerding: 

Thank you so much, Drew. 

Drew McLellan: 

So give everybody a little bit of your background and how you come to have this expertise in this space. 

Ryan Gerding: 

Sure. So I’m the CEO of Inc. Public Relations. We’re a boutique PR firm that’s based in Kansas City, but we have a network of senior level PR practitioners all over the country and even in some places overseas. And I’ve been at Inc. For about 22 years and prior to that I was an on air reporter, photographer and television news anchor. Graduated from the University of Missouri and applied my trade in Columbia, Missouri in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, Sacramento, California and Lafayette, Indiana, covering everything from presidents to two headed pigs and after several years of doing that, decided to move into the world of public relations. And here I am. 

Drew McLellan: 

So PR’s changed a bit since you, since you left the two headed pig story and entered into the professional side of services for agencies and for clients. So talk a little bit about sort of the evolution that you see and have seen. Like when I think of pr, back in the day, when you and I started our careers, it was pretty much media relations. And now today, obviously it’s something completely different. So talk a little bit about sort of your perspective of that. 

Ryan Gerding: 

You’re right, it has changed so dramatically and there are so many things that clients are looking for that fall under the guise of public relations. And that’s everything from digital marketing, social media, even SEO. Owned content creation, earned content creation, paid content creation. There’s a lot under there. But I will say that while a lot has changed, while the different mediums that are used to share that information has changed, one thing hasn’t and it’s that people are just looking for a good story. They’re looking for content that is relevant to them, that’s relevant to their audiences, that speaks to them, that is honest, that is truthful, and that isn’t just a bunch of spin. Harder to do that sometimes now than it was in the past. But the single fact remains that people are still looking for a good story. 

Drew McLellan: 

How do you think the public, so our clients, audiences, how do they discern or how do we help them discern that a story is fair, balanced, honest and isn’t just spin? Given that the world today would argue that maybe there is not an unbiased media source on the planet anymore. 

Ryan Gerding: 

It is so tough because like I said before, there are so many different ways to get content and it’s hard to tell. I mean, even in outlets that might be trusted by you as an outlet that that generally gives you unbiased information, they now have sponsored content opportunities that may look a whole lot like editorial content. And if you’re reading it as a, as a reader and aren’t discerning enough to notice that it says sponsored content at the top, you may think that it is unbiased opinion coming from someone, when really it’s just the opinion of someone who’s check cleared and right. That can be really tough for what we do. Because, you know, our primary focus at my firm is securing earned media coverage for our clients. And in order to illustrate to them the value of that earned media coverage, it means that the outlets that we’re getting them coverage in have to be trusted outlets and their audiences have to believe that what they’re getting is information that’s real and true and valuable to them. It’s hard. 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. And I think today, even more so, I think we are watching. So you and I are recording this in April of 25 for anybody who’s not listening sort of sequentially to the episodes. But given everything that’s happening in the U.S. i think that it’s even more challenging today to find a media source that is truly unbiased. 

Ryan Gerding: 

Right. And it’s okay to even go into an outlet with the knowledge that it’s not biased as long as you recognize that and understand that there’s, you know, there may be a particular standpoint that they’re coming from. If you at least acknowledge that and recognize it when you’re consuming it, then, you know, there’s a less likely chance that you’ll be, for lack of a better term, fooled by. By what you’re reading. But it’s hard. 

Drew McLellan: 

So as an agency, how are you approaching clients in terms of that storytelling? So what’s changed? When you think about the work you used to do for clients, let’s say five, 10 years, let’s say pre Covid versus even Covid, what’s changed and where do you think it’s going next? 

Ryan Gerding: 

Well, you know, every client, when you start with them, believes that they have the greatest story that’s never been told, of course, and they could do it themselves. They just don’t have the time. And so they’re coming to you. And so the challenge always is to work with them to understand the message they’re trying to get across. But then to also pair that with the news media outlets, the reporters, producers, and editors that you’re dealing with, and figuring out what it is that they’re going to find helpful and useful and newsworthy. And sometimes what the client wants and what the media wants don’t necessarily match. And so it’s a, you know, it’s a tough balance that you have to try to make. But what we pride ourselves on being able to do is figuring out what it is that a client does or how they do something or unique stories that they have to tell that will resonate with the media and make a reporter decide. You’re the most important person that I want to talk to today, and I want to pick up the phone and have a conversation. 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. As you look out at the landscape of pr, what do you think clients think PR is today? Like when somebody calls you, a prospect calls you, and they call you because they know you’re a PR firm. I mean, your name says public relations, Right. What do they think they want to buy? 

Ryan Gerding: 

Some of them want to buy our capability to get earned media coverage, but some of them want to buy our capability to create social media content for them. Some of them want to buy our capability to do influencer marketing and some of them want something completely different. It just, it, it really does depend on, on the client and what they’re looking for. We do our best to make our focus be securing earned media coverage for our clients and try to make that clear for them. But we get folks who come to us for, for a lot of different things, Ear being one of them. 

Drew McLellan: 

So put on your sorcerer’s hat and tell me what you think PR is going to look like in five years. 

Ryan Gerding: 

You know, it’s, it’s concerning because there are so many layoffs that are happening in the news media. There are reporters, producers and editors who, who are being asked to do so much more with so much less. 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. 

Ryan Gerding: 

And when that happens, it can be hard to break through and to get someone interested in what your client is doing and what they have to. And I don’t see anything in the next five years that will, that will change that trend dramatically. So we’re going to run into news media outlets that have smaller staffs that are going to try to do more with less, and that’s tough. And then we’re going to see, you know, the proliferation of different types of social media and other digital channels where people may go to get their information and it may be paid information. It may not be good old fashioned or unvetted anyway. Yeah, unvetted information, that’s an even better way to describe it. Everybody is a news media outlet now, which is great. I mean, it’s great to have more conversations and more voices, but if it’s unvetted conversations, it can be hard to discern between the outlets that really have your best interest at heart and the outlets that have their own interest at heart. 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. How is AI impacting the work you do? And what do you anticipate good and bad it will do to the profession of public relations? 

Ryan Gerding: 

So it’s interesting, it was probably about six months ago when I first heard of a journalist who was asking for answers to questions, say in their email back to us. Do not use AI to answer these questions. They really need to come from your person, from their expertise and their knowledge. So there’s certainly a bit of distrust over using AI for that type of communication. But I Use it a lot. I use it to organize, summarize my thoughts. I use it to do research on particular industries. If I’m having a new business call with a client who’s in an industry that I’m not too familiar with, I’ll use AI to try and make me smart. But it really has to be just a tool and not the thing that you completely rely on for the content that you’re creating, creating for the information that you’re gathering. But overall, I mean, I think it’s been fantastic in terms of organizing thoughts and just making me smarter on things that I’m not as smart as I should be on. 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah, it’s interesting. You know, I think when agencies started playing with AI a few years ago, we immediately leaned into the it can produce content or creative or whatever. And I’m seeing a lot of agencies sort of moving away from that. It’s not that they’re not using it to enhance video and do other things, but now it’s more almost operational. It is sort of the behind the scenes. It is the research, it is the, you know, if I want to make these four points, in what order would it make sense to make those points like it does? It is about more organizing your thoughts or helping you structure something or learn more about something. So it’ll be interesting to see what the evolution is as we continue to A, get better and newer tools and B, as we get more familiar with them. 

Ryan Gerding: 

Right, agree. And while it’s certainly helpful in creating some of that content, it’s not really great at a creative turn of phrase. And sometimes that’s all it takes in a subject line to a reporter, in the first couple lines of a pitch to a reporter to get them to keep reading. And that still relies on, you know, good old fashioned PR folks who are thinking creatively and writing creatively. 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. So from your perspective, why does pr, in the grand scheme of all the ways we comm. In the grand scheme of all the ways our clients communicate today, where does PR sort of sit in that sort of sea of channels and types of content? And why does it matter? 

Ryan Gerding: 

Well, given our conversation about how it’s hard to find trusted media outlets anymore, the fact still remains that when someone you trust says this person, this company, this product is an authority on this subject, there’s real value in that. Yeah, there’s real value in someone else saying nice things about you as opposed to you paying to say nice things about yourself. And there’s still value in someone picking up a Wall Street Journal and reading an article that talks about one of your clients that positions them as an expert in the space. There’s still tremendous value in that. And that’s something that you can get from earned media, from public relations, that you can’t get from paid media, that you can’t get from owned media. There’s still tremendous value in that. 

Drew McLellan: 

If you are familiar or have looked at the Edelman trust barometer that came out a couple months ago, but it’s an international study. They’ve done it for 30 some years. And not only our country, but our world sort of level of trust has never been lower. We don’t trust anyone. We don’t trust anything. We are mad about a lot of things. Right. So we come into any informational opportunity sort of already with a chip on our shoulder, we expect to be lied to. So how does PR play in that kind of an environment? 

Ryan Gerding: 

Well, I believe a lot of that is true and that people are more skeptical of things that they’re being told. But it’s kind of like those surveys that ask people for their opinion of Congress as a whole, and their opinion of all of Congress is very low. But my congressperson is a good guy or a good gal. And so while people may be distrustful overall of what they’re seeing and receiving that’s out there, there are places that they go to where they do trust it and they do trust information. And so there are still places that people go to to find trusted information, even though they’re recognizing that it’s a mess elsewhere. 

Drew McLellan: 

Well, and to me, that you could make that argument, then, that PR is even more critical today in a distrustful world where there are fewer places that feel unbiased or feel truthful, that having a presence in one of those places would have even more value. 

Ryan Gerding: 

Yeah, that completely makes sense. 

Drew McLellan: 

So as you look over the landscape of the kind of clients that you serve and all of that, what do clients get wrong about working with a PR agency? Where’s the disconnect that you have to course correct as their agency once they hire you? 

Ryan Gerding: 

Yeah, so I mentioned it before, is every client thinks that they’ve got the greatest story that’s never been told, and they have to think that way or else they wouldn’t be able to run their business successfully. And so a lot of it is just education on what it is that the news media find interesting. And you can’t just call up a reporter at Forbes magazine and say, hey, I’ve got an amazing company that’s doing this amazing thing, because that reporter gets calls and emails from hundreds, if not thousands of PR people who say, I’ve got an amazing company that’s doing an amazing thing. 

Drew McLellan: 

Well, like you’re saying, not, not just calls, not just emails, but they’re getting tweeted at, they’re getting reached out on social media. They’re bombarded with story ideas, right? 

Ryan Gerding: 

So then a lot of it becomes working with the clients to understand you have expertise that can help that reporter do their job. You have expertise that can help that reporter with the story that they’re working on. Now, it may not be a profile piece on your company and why you’re the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it’s a piece that takes the expertise that you have, the experience that you have, and helps them in the story that they’re putting together. And so a lot of it is just working with clients to help them understand what it is that makes them newsworthy to a reporter. And nine times out of 10, it’s not exactly what you do. Sometimes it is, but a lot of times it’s the expertise, the experience, the data, the customers, even some of the unique stories that your executives may have that will make someone interesting. We had a client many years ago who is the CEO of a software company, but he was also an extreme marathon runner. And instead of just talking about his software, when we reached out to reporters, we talked about how his experience as an extreme marathon runner informed the way he ran his company. And it’s those types of stories that will resonate with the reporter and will resonate with their audience and will lead to some really good coverage. 

Drew McLellan: 

I want to talk a little bit more about sort of how agencies, whether they’re PR firms or they’re just trying to connect with a reporter or somebody who’s telling a story, I want to talk a little bit about how they should think about that. But let’s take a quick break and then we’ll come back and tee that up. Hey, everybody, thanks for listening today. Before I get back to the interview, I just want to remind you that we are always offering some really amazing workshops. And you can see the whole [email protected] on the navigation head to how we help. Scroll down and you’ll see workshops and you can see the whole list there with descriptions of each workshop. They are all in Denver and we’ve got them throughout the year for agency owners, account Execs, agency leaders, CFOs. We have a little something for everybody. No matter what it is that you’re struggling with, people new Business, money, all of those things we’ve got covered. So check them out and come join us. All right, let’s get back to the show. All right, we are back and we are talking about the current world of PR and how it’s evolved over time. And so your firm, your agency is a pure PR play for the most part, in what today is pure pr, which is obviously expanded beyond just media relations. But how does an agency, or I guess a client direct. How does an agency get to create a relationship with reporters? Create a relationship with a media outlet that’s important to them, either for their own agency’s PR or for a client’s. Like, I’m assuming that it’s a whole lot easier to get someone, you know to take your call or look at your email or pay attention to you than somebody who’s never heard of you before and just knows that you want something. 

Ryan Gerding: 

Yeah, that’s very true. And relationships are certainly important, but a relationship only goes as far as the story that you’re trying to tell. My wife was a local news producer, a local television news producer for 20 years here in Kansas City. And I could pitch her something on a client. She’d pick up the phone when I called, but if it wasn’t relevant to her audience, then it was a non starter. So relationships are great, but the story is even better. Having said that, I think the best way to build a relationship with a reporter or to a media outlet is, again, like I said before, is to be helpful to them. Not just to say, I want you to do a story on a client of mine, but instead to potentially say, hey, what are you working on? Is there something I can help you with? And it may not be with a current client that you have. It may be, it may be an old client, or it may be a company you’ve never heard of. Yeah. And so if you can show that you understand what they’re looking for and how you can help them, then that’s a tremendous way to, to establish a relationship with a reporter or with an outlet. 

Drew McLellan: 

How do you. Again, knowing that they get thousands of calls, emails, all of the social media, how do you even engage in that conversation? Like, we are all, we have all become very adept at ignoring phone numbers we don’t recognize or whatever. Right. So how does somebody. If, if, for example, I have a bunch of clients in the pharma space, and so there are publications that cover that industry. So I, I know the industry. I want to, I want to sort of lean into, how do I get to know the reporters in that space and be helpful, if that’s genuinely my goal. 

Ryan Gerding: 

Right. And you mentioned people are really good at ignoring phone calls. Now it’s become even harder to track reporters down by phone because so many of them are not going into a newsroom anymore where there’s a main extension that you can call in and reach someone. They’re all on their mobile phones and they don’t share those numbers often. So just about the only way that you can initiate conversations with them is by email or by social media. And so if that’s the case, a lot of it is just being persistent. You know, we know that we’re going to get way more nos than yeses. And in fact, the most common response that you get is no response from a reporter. And so part of it is just being persistent but still interacting with them, still sending them thoughts or information, asking what they might be working on, and just stay in their face to some extent without being annoying, of course. And there’s a fine line between persistent and annoying, but it really is just trying to continue a conversation or trying to start a conversation again and again and again. And if you don’t get a response, it might be finding other people at that outlet who might be interested in what you have to say. You know, sometimes it’s not, you know, a reporter who covers your particular industry, but the story you might have might be a marketing story. So you go to a reporter who covers marketing instead of, you know, instead of software or instead of retail goods and. And looking for other ways to get into that outlet and to pitch your clients to other reporters who may cover things differently. 

Drew McLellan: 

So my guess is that over the course of your career, you have mentored a lot of young professionals in the space. So how do you help them recognize that thin line between being annoying and being persistent? What does that look like? 

Ryan Gerding: 

Well, I think probably the most annoying email that a reporter can get is if you say, hey, I’m just following up. Did you see this? Are you interested? Just following up. Are you interested? Not sure if you saw this. 

Drew McLellan: 

Right. 

Ryan Gerding: 

If you are going to follow up with a reporter who hasn’t answered you at all, it’s to find something new or different or unique to give them additional information as opposed to just saying. 

Drew McLellan: 

Hey, I haven’t heard from you. I haven’t heard from you. Right? 

Ryan Gerding: 

Yeah, yeah, they know you haven’t heard from them. So if you haven’t heard from them, it’s because you haven’t given them something that’s useful or interesting to them. And So a lot of that goes to understanding the outlet, understanding the reporter that you’re dealing with. You know, look them up on LinkedIn, see if you have a common connection. And if I were to send you an email, Drew, I think based on your bio that I read on your website, I would start it with Rah rah rah for Ski Uma, which is the fight song for the University of Minnesota, which you mentioned in your bio that you didn’t know. 

Drew McLellan: 

Yep. Yeah, I do not know the whole thing, that’s for sure. Yep. 

Ryan Gerding: 

So try to get to know them and understand them a bit and provide them something that’s, that’s useful as opposed to just saying, hey, I haven’t heard from you. 

Drew McLellan: 

So in other words, the hey, I’m just pinging you to get this to the top of your email inbox is not the way to do that, is what you’re saying. 

Ryan Gerding: 

Do not circle back with a reporter. 

Drew McLellan: 

Right. 

Ryan Gerding: 

Bubbling this up, all those phrases. 

Drew McLellan: 

Right, right. So one of the things that we talk a lot about is that one of the ways agencies can attract great clients is by being a subject matter expert in something that their pool of clients care about, whether it’s an industry, an audience, whatever it is. So it’s beneficial to the agency owner to be perceived as an expert. So if somebody listening wants to be seen and perceived as an expert by the media, that would be relevant to that expertise. How does one begin to create that sort of awareness, that relationship, that Persona? If I wanted to be an expert on small to mid sized agencies, and I want to make sure that I’m connecting with Ad Age and adweek and all of those kind of publications, how does somebody approach, approach that in a way that gives them a better shot at success? 

Ryan Gerding: 

So I would say start off by creating some of your own content. So that’s either, you know, a company blog that, that you post regularly to, it’s creating LinkedIn posts and content there. It’s interacting with other people in your industry. It’s giving yourself a presence that you create first so that when you then approach someone at Ad Age or Ad Week and say, here’s some of the things that Drew has written in the past, or here are some of the things that I can speak to, it’s helpful to have some of that content already out there and already created so that they have a sense for not only your expertise, but your voice. And so once that happens, then it’s easier for you to reach out and say, hey, here’s an expert who can talk about Topic X, Y or Z. Here’s what he said before. 

Drew McLellan: 

Okay. And again. And then following the same path, which is paying attention to who the reporters are looking for ways to be helpful. 

Ryan Gerding: 

Exactly. 

Drew McLellan: 

So there’s sort of a stepsister to PR that is pretty prevalent today, which is sort of the pay to play pr. So talk a little bit about where does that sit in the space of PR and where does it add value? Where does it muddy the waters? How do you sort of approach that with your clients? 

Ryan Gerding: 

Yeah, that is tough because. And it’s especially true in, you know, in industry trade publications where you might reach out to an outlet that’s perfect for your client, that’s perfect for their expertise. And the answer you get back is, well, we’re not interested in writing anything about you, but if you’d like to become a paid partner, then we can help you with the content. And I mean, there’s certainly value in that. It is content that you create that you have control over, that says things about you in exactly the way you want to be said. And it can show up in outlets that your audiences trust. But it’s tough. I always get so disappointed when that happens and that we hear from an outlet that says it’ll cost you to get in. And so, you know, we’ll bring the opportunities to our clients, but we’ll let them know that just understand that the value of this is going to be less than if we had just, you know, gotten it, because you actually are interesting and are an expert and they wanted to hear from you without accepting a check. It’s tough. 

Drew McLellan: 

Are there places or times, though, where it makes sense to make that investment? 

Ryan Gerding: 

Yeah, there certainly can be. If it’s an outlet that you just haven’t been able to crack, then maybe that’s an option to at least open the door. And I don’t like it. But if you are a paying customer, they’ll pick up the phone and listen to suggestions that you might have for additional coverage down the road so there can be value to it. But our public relations firm is rare in that we’re a pay for performance PR firm. So what that means is we get paid more if we get our clients more coverage and less if we get our clients less coverage. And so they pay us when we get them in an outlet, and that’s the value to them is the earned media in that outlet. And so if it’s a paid opportunity, that’s not our expertise that has gotten them coverage. That’s just us facilitating someone writing a check. And so the value to them is less and the value to us is less. 

Drew McLellan: 

Let’s talk a little bit about that model. So a lot of agencies are invited to set up compensation so that they get compensated differently if they hit certain KPIs or goals for a client. So how do you, as an agency, and most agencies, by the way, turn down, they think it’s a great idea until they dig into it and they’re like, wait a second, your salespeople are terrible. You don’t answer inquiry forms for three weeks. Like, check the box, check the box, check the box. They’re like, there’s too much we can’t control to tie our compensation to that. So how have you successfully gotten around those things? Like, what are the rules of engagement if you’re going to set up that kind of compensation? What do you as an agency feel like you need to control or have a say in to know that you can actually perform at the level you want to so you’re compensated properly. 

Ryan Gerding: 

Right. And that’s tough because sometimes we will get clients who say, oh, we’ll pay you based on the number of website visits we get or the number of widgets we sell. And as you said, there’s so much of that that is not based on whether or not an article shows up in a news media outlet. So the performance that we’re paid on is securing the coverage in the outlet. We give you the platform, you appear on that platform, the coverage is there, and that’s success to us. That’s how we’re paid. Not tying it to company metrics or anything like that, but we certainly do get asked for that. But that’s not something we do. It’s strictly the performance that we measure is, did we get you coverage in that outlet, did we provide you the platform and did you have something good to say? 

Drew McLellan: 

And, but even, even in that, I suspect sometimes the client, the stories your clients want you to tell are not stories that the media cares about. And so again, now it’s tied to your compensation. So I think this is an interesting business perspective of when you build compensation in a way that you get paid based on performance, you obviously want to control as many of the factors leading to that performance as possible. So, you know, a client wants to. Wants a big story in the Wall Street Journal that their bank is 50 years old. Right. That would be a challenging story to place, I suspect. 

Ryan Gerding: 

Yeah, without question. And so a lot of it is working with the clients and educating them ahead of time. What it is that makes something newsworthy. And if it is just, I want you to publicize that my bank is 50 years old. Then we may tell them that’s not a project that we want to take on because we’re just going to be spinning our wheels and it’s not going to get you coverage. So there’s a lot of education and a lot of handholding that happens at the very beginning to work with clients and help them understand what it is that’s going to get the results that we want and that hopefully they want. 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. So I think a lot of people listening have the opportunity to be interviewed. So either themselves or a client. What makes a great interview from your perspective, like, how does one prep, how does one show up? What does that look like when one of your clients knocks it out of the park? What did that look like to make you feel like, Yep, that was an A plus interview. 

Ryan Gerding: 

Yeah. An A plus interview is really just a conversation like what you and I are having now. It’s a conversation as opposed to, I have my seven talking points and I’m not going to stray from those. And that’s tough. I mean, if you’ve got a CEO who’s doing an interview with the Wall Street Journal, that may be the very first time they’ve ever spoken with someone at the Wall Street Journal. And they might be nervous. It’s fine to have notes and it’s fine to have talking points. But what I really want you to have is a conversation and for you to be as helpful as possible to the person that you’re speaking with as opposed to just regurgitating the five things that the PR guy said. You have to, you have to get across in the interview or else it won’t be a good one. 

Drew McLellan: 

Right. So when you have a client that’s going to be interviewed, great example, first time Wall Street Journals or some big A publication that really has gravitas and they want to do it, they want to knock it out of the park. How do you prep them for that? 

Ryan Gerding: 

So some of it depends on the client and how they like to be prepped. You have some CEOs who feel like they don’t need a whole lot of prep. You have others who want, you know, a briefing document beforehand that has the bio of the reporter that they’re speaking to and seven relevant articles that, that they’ve read. And they want to understand how we got them interested in the interview, what we told them, what we should be prepared to say. That’s honestly, that’s most clients, there are a few who feel like they can Wing it no matter what. But it’s to do your best to let the client understand how you got that reporter interested in the first place. And that will frame the conversation as opposed to just saying, oh no, they just want to talk about you and the company. It’s to give them as much as you can beforehand to help them prepare so that it will be a good conversation. 

Drew McLellan: 

Well, and to your point, and who they’re talking to, like the reporter is Bob Smith and here’s the kind of stories he normally writes and here’s why this story is relevant to him. And by the way, here’s where he went to school or he has five children and a pony or whatever it is. 

Ryan Gerding: 

Right, exactly. It’s interesting. I will LinkedIn stalk just about anyone who we set our clients up to speak to and inevitably there’ll be a connection that they have. And oh, you know, this reporter used to work at this outlet, which is where you went to school or something like that. And if you can just. And that honestly provides the reporter with a little bit of information to help them understand that you understand them. 

Drew McLellan: 

Right. Well. And it just humanizes the conversation. Exactly, yeah. So if you were speaking to a PR class today, so juniors and seniors who are studying PR and you were asked by the professor to give those students your best advice as they go into the profession, what would it be? I mean, you’ve been doing this for a long time. I’m sure you’ve seen a lot of young people come and go through your shop and I’m sure you still have a lot of people who started with you many years ago and have sort of grown up into the professionals they are today. So what would you tell a 20 year old who’s thinking PR is the career for them? 

Ryan Gerding: 

I would tell them to really take the time to understand their client or a new business prospect before you get on the phone with them. There are so many times when you’ll see someone get in a conversation with a client and they may have been a client for a long time and still don’t understand exactly what they do or how they’re different. And I see that a lot. And so I think the best thing you can do is just take a little bit of time beforehand before you get in any conversation to truly try to understand what your clients do, what the media, who you, you’re interacting with do, and understand the pain points that they address. That’s my favorite part, honestly, is figuring out what do you do to get someone to write you a check that is that is amazing to me. And that’s what I love about pr. 

Drew McLellan: 

It’s fascinating. It like every time I meet somebody, I’m like, oh, you can make a living doing that? I had no idea. It’s fascinating. Yeah, right. 

Ryan Gerding: 

I had not heard of the Agency Management Institute. I think it’s fascinating that you could get people to write you checks by giving them awesome advice on how to help their agencies grow. That’s. That’s incredible. 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah, yeah. It’s not a bad way to make a living, that’s for sure. Yeah. So what I’m hearing you say throughout, really the whole conversation, is do your homework. Like, you can’t wing. In our profession, you can’t wing things. And particularly when you are asking someone to pay attention to you or your client, that you have to be the one that does the homework first before they’re going to be willing to do homework. 

Ryan Gerding: 

Exactly, Exactly. 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. If folks want to follow up with you, if they want to learn more about the agency, if they think that they might be a client, because I know a lot of agencies partner with or a good partner, what’s the best way for folks to reach out to you? 

Ryan Gerding: 

Best way is our website. So we are Inc. PR and the website is www.inkincpr.com. so that’s I n K. 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. Awesome. This has been a great conversation. Thank you for sharing your expertise and your agency experience and grateful that you carved out the time to do this. So thank you. 

Ryan Gerding: 

Thank you so much, Drew. 

Drew McLellan: 

All right, guys, so I have to tell you, I’m super excited about what Ryan was talking about because it underlines what we’ve been talking about for years, which is the way we get better at our job, the way we get our clients noticed. The way we get noticed is when we approach it from a perspective of how can I be helpful? How can I teach? How can I help someone be better at their job? Whether it’s a client, a prospect, a reporter. When we come at it from that perspective, how do I share my expertise as liberally and generously as I can to help someone else be better at their job? That’s what opens doors. That’s what creates opportunities with prospects. It’s what creates deeper relationships with clients. And in our conversation today, regardless of who the media is, and by the way, we talked a lot about sort of the Wall Street Journal kind of media, but as Ryan mentioned, everybody’s a media outlet today. So whether it’s a blogger, whether it’s a podcaster, it could be somebody who has a very strong opinion about something and is very biased in what they write. If they’re valuable to your agency or your clients, no matter who, that is the way to lean into them and the way for them to earn their attention is to be helpful first as opposed to the I need you to be helpful to me first. And so we have to give before we get is sort of the underscore, I think, of the conversation today. So great lessons, I think, for all of us to apply not just in the PR side of the work that you do, not just trying to get your agency noticed out in the world, but also I think in general. I think, as you know, because you’ve heard me say it before, I just think it’s a good way to run our businesses is we’re going to give before we get, we’re going to be helpful before we get helped. And that’s what creates the reciprocity in the relationship. And so if you’re always the one to step out first, then odds are you’re going to be successful much faster. So great lessons today. Before I let you go, I want to thank our friends at White Label iq. As you know, they are the presenting sponsor of the podcast. So they are born of an agency. Many years ago they were struggling to find developers and folks who are experts in ppc and so they built a sister agency that all they do is White label design, dev and PPC for agencies all over the world. So if you want to know more about them, if you need an extra set of hands or it’s not something you do in house, but you want to provide that service to a client, head over to whitelabeliq.com ami you can learn more about what they have for you as a podcast listener on your first project with them. So great folks. I’ve known them for 20 years. They’re just good human beings who really understand our space because they are born from our space. So you can count on them to understand what you need to be profitable and what you need to make a client happy and how you can be helpful. And they’re a great model of being helpful first. So they have a lot of great content that I think you would find valuable, if nothing else. So check them out. Last but not least, of course, I just want to remind you that I love doing this. I love meeting people like Ryan. I love having these conversations. I don’t get to do it if you don’t listen. So I am grateful that you keep coming back week after week. As we march very close to episode 500. So that’s coming up in about a month. So that’s hard to imagine, but we’ve been doing this together for a really long time, and I am. I am grateful for your presence and your comments and your reviews and your feedback, and I’m just super grateful. So thank you. And I’ll be back next week, and I hope you will, too. All right, talk to you them that’s. 

Drew McLellan: 

All for this episode of AMI’s Build a Better Agency podcast. Be sure to visit agencymanagementinstitute.com to learn more about our workshops, online courses, and other ways we serve small to midsize agencies. Don’t forget to subscribe today so you don’t miss an episode.