Effective Communication Strategies with Cynthia Kane

Drew McLellan: 

Hey everybody. Drew Mclellan here with another episode of Build a Better Agency and I think this is going to be a very thoughtful and thought provoking episode. I’m really looking forward to the conversation. You know, we are in a moment in the world and certainly here in the United States of incredible turmoil and change. I feel like we’re in the middle of a storm and we’re not sure what’s going to happen in the storm, how long the storm is going to last. I think we think we were going into 2025 feeling that way with AI and all the changes that we’ve endured over the last few years. And I think certainly there have been things that are happening on the horizon with the market and all of those sort of things that just exasperate that problem. And so I think we have to show up as a different kind of leader when we are in moments of turmoil or crisis or challenge or change. And I think it’s true, it’s fair to say that it’s true that we’re all going through a fair amount of all of that right now. And so our guest today is going to help us think about how do we show up with a sort of an inner calm, to be that place of clarity and calm when the C’s are a little bit tumultuous. But before I introduce her to you and before we start that conversation, I do want to remind you that the Build a Better Agency Summit is right around the corner. We have about a hundred tickets left before we sell out. It’s going to be an amazing conference. It’s our fifth year. I think we get better every year. We just learn more about what you want, what you need. You know, we’re focused very much on the running of the business. So one of the things we heard loud and clear from last year surveys was that you wanted the breakout sessions to be much more workshoppy and less keynote y like you wanted to walk away learning some very specific, tangible things. So we’ve got breakouts on leadership, we’ve got breakouts on finance, we have breakouts on AI, we have breakouts on all kinds of topics that are super relevant to you, that you’re going to walk away with very tangible lessons, tips, tricks, tools that you can apply as soon as you get back to the office. And that’s not even talking about the keynotes or the roundtable. So we’ve got great content. We really, really want you to join us. If you have not bought your ticket, if you have not registered yet, remember the dates are May 19th is member day. So if you’re a member Platinum, Gold, Silver associate member, or you’re a member of one of our peer groups, you can join us for member day. We’re going to spend 90 minutes with Mercer Island Group learning about what agencies did when they were going into the final round of a pitch or an rfp. They were the leader, they were the ones to beat and they did something that cost them that account. We’re going to learn about all the mistakes that we make kind of in that final, in that final lap. And then Susan Byer and I are going to go through the agency Edge Research. We’re going to unveil that research this year. We’re talking about to clients about how they feel, feel about AI, what they’re doing with AI, how what they want us to be doing with AI, how we’re showing up today versus how they want us to show up. And we’re just coming out of the field now and seeing the initial results. And I’m telling you we are not living up to their expectations. So we’re going to talk about what their expectations are and how we level up to those. So lots of amazing content for you and we want you to join us. May 19th member day. May 20th and 21st is the actual summit. Its if you haven’t registered yet, grab your ticket before we sell out. Please, please, please head over to agencymanagementinstitute.com and in the upper left corner of the navigation it says Baba Summit. Click on it and you can get to the registration and get your ticket. Get your ticket before they go up in price. They keep going up now as we get closer and closer to the event. So save yourself some money, grab a ticket now and join us. Okay. All right, so back to my sea change thing. So, and obviously we’re going to be talking about this at the summit, but things are up in the air right now for us as agency folks. We came out of the gate really strong for many of you, December and January and early February was on fire. And then all of a sudden sales slowed down, pipelines dried up, everybody’s worried about hanging on to cash. Everyone’s wondering what’s going to happen here in the US with tariffs and other things. And so all of a sudden, we’re in yet again a moment of confusion, turmoil, change, uncertainty. So how we show up as a leader, so important. And one of the things that we have to recognize is that we weren’t born with the skills we need to be a great leader, to be a great communicator. So how do we develop this? How do we show up as a calm and clear communicator? So that’s what we’re going to talk to our guest, Cynthia Cain about today. She has a really interesting story to tell, and she’s got an amazing background. She’s helping people get better at this every day. And so, on our mutual behalf, my behalf and yours, I’m going to be picking her brain to see what we can learn in the hour we get to spend with her. So without further ado, let’s welcome her to the show. Cynthia, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Thanks for having me. I’m really happy and excited to be here. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

So tell everybody a little bit about your background and how you came to have this expertise. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Sure. So I will say that this isn’t something that I ever dreamed of when I was younger. I was a very passive aggressive communicator, very afraid of confrontation, had a really hard time handling silence or expressing myself clearly. And I didn’t realize at the time that it was really affecting my relationships, both personally and professionally. And I had lost my first love unexpectedly. And when that happened, my whole world just fell apart, really. And I was in this place of real discomfort, trying to figure out how to live here and enjoy being here. And what I found through all of the work that I was doing at that time, whether it was reading, going to seminars, retreats, all the courses possible, right? 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Just searching for the answer. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Searching for the answer. That’s really what I was trying to do. I realized that a lot of it, well, really everything had to do with communication. There was this piece about communicating that I really didn’t understand or know about. And I was trying to figure out how to communicate differently with myself, with others, with the world around me. And that’s when a friend of mine had to introduce me to a seminar that was happening at the Shambhala Institute in New York, which is a place where they teach, you know, it’s a Buddhist center, and they taught meditation. And that week I learned the elements of right speech in Buddhism, which are to Tell the truth, don’t exaggerate, use helpful language, and don’t gossip. And I thought to myself, okay, like, this is it. This is my way out of this discomfort that I’m feeling. And I learned how to meditate. And I felt like something was happening while I was doing that. And that felt really good. But then I had no idea how to actually do it. I mean, in theory it sounded great, like, speak in a kind, honest and helpful way. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

But in theory it sounds easy. Like when you say that intellectually, we go, well, yeah, everybody should do that, right? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

It’s so simple. Like, the concepts are so simple. And yet then when you actually think about how do I put this into practice, that’s when it becomes a bit more complicated. So for me, I just started practicing what would it be like to change the way that I was speaking to myself through this different lens? And then it started rippling out into changing the way I was communicating with others. And what I was noticing was so much of what was happening was that I was expanding my capacity for discomfort. So usually in the moments where there’d be confrontation, where I’d shut down or I’d want to walk away, I was actually able to stay in the conversation and express myself in the way that I wanted to show up, which I’d never been able to do before. And so that led me to start writing about it. And then, you know, what people wanted was to learn more, how to actually do it. Right? Because what you’re saying, it is simple. Like, you read it and you’re like, oh, I can do this, no problem. But it’s quite challenging to implement. So I started teaching. And then the work that was helping me was helping other people. And then from there it all kind of grew into training programs and one to one work and more books. So that I have my newest book, just came out in January. But the first three were really also around communication. That’s my passion. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

So what’s the title of the new book that just came out? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

So the new book is the Pause how to keep your cool in tough Situations. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

And we as a world are in a very tough situation these days. Right. So one of the things I think is interesting is when you talk about this, like we said, it sounds so simple. But the reality is we’re not born with the ability to communicate clearly and well. And in the way you describe, that’s not an innate skill like breathing or walking that we just develop over time. So people that do it, well, how do you believe? Because some people are better at this than others, right? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

What allows someone to develop the skill even if they don’t realize they’re developing the skill? Or is it something that we have to do actively to get good at? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yeah, well, I think that it is something that we actively have to do to get good at, because I think. I really believe that communication is a practice. And if we want to show up differently in our interactions, especially in those challenging moments, like you’re saying, right. It’s so easy. We go off instinct all the time, and our instinct rarely gets us the outcome that we really want. And so we have to really start to just become conscious of how we’re interacting or even just how we want to be interacting in these moments. Right. And then it’s figuring out the steps to make it happen. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

And is it only in moments of discomfort that we sort of recognize that we’re not. Like, if you and I are chatting like you and I are chatting now, we’re doing this pretty well. We know how to do this. Right. It’s on the surface, we’re learning from each other. But if we were in conflict, you said something that I took offensively or vice versa, I would assume that it’s in those moments of discomfort or challenge when it’s pretty clear that we’re not as good at this as we think we might be. Is that true? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yeah, that’s right. Because we really don’t think about, like, right now, while you and I are talking, we’re not necessarily paying attention to the sensation in our body right now. There’s no reason for us to feel discomfort or unsafe. Right, Right. And the moment in a conversation where someone has a different opinion than us or maybe someone, you know is giving negative feedback or, you know, changing requirements, suddenly those types of things, automatically we are in a state of survival. Like, our body thinks that we are under attack and threatened in some way. And so our awareness heightens. So it is in those challenging moments where we suddenly become aware of discomfort and, oh, this doesn’t feel good. So we usually go into our default reactions, which you probably have. We all have them, right? 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

I mean, mine are getting passive aggressive and shutting down. I love those places. They feel so good. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. Kind of a fight or flight. Right. I mean, you react in some way. Either either lean into it aggressively or you try and get out of it. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Right. Because you’re in protection mode. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Right. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

And so usually when we’re having more calm, relaxed conversations, we’re not in protection mode. We’re in more of a flow. Right. So it’s more of a dialogue, whereas when we get into challenging conversations, it’s less of a conversation and more of seeing the other person as other, potentially an enemy or a threat and figuring out how do we handle that threat. Right, Right. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

So talk a little bit about, because it sounds like your pursuit of this truth came from a very personal place, from a personal loss and some challenges professionally. But obviously we’re talking on a podcast that’s all about business and work. So make the bridge for us of why this matters, for us as leaders to be conscious about this and to care if we’re good at this or not. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Well, I think what is really important and what I found over the years doing this work is how important, I mean, important communication is within companies, within agencies. Right. You have your team and you want to be able to communicate in a way that inspires trust and loyalty and creates an environment for creativity and creates an environment for a sense of safety too, to be able to share and express. And also, it’s really important when working with clients, just in terms of client expectations, handling budget constraints that happen. You know, there’s so many things that pop up on a daily basis when. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Setting expectations for employees. Changing your expectations. You talked about like changing the game. I think in our world we have to do that all the time with clients, with team members. Yeah. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

And so you’re learning how. How to navigate those situations in a more calm way so that everything doesn’t feel like a wildfire. Right. You get to distinguish between what’s a wildfire and what’s a barbecue pit, basically. And so right now, everything. Sudden client shifts that may happen, you know, certain performance conversations that come up. Right. All of that might feel really overwhelming and can just take you out of how you want to show up as a leader. Right. And it takes a really long time to gain trust and it takes a very short amount of time to lose it. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. Right. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

And that’s really what we want to pay more attention to, is how we want to show up. What type of communication do we want to model so that then we start to see it filtering through within the company or within the agency in the team, because it can change a dynamic in well being and all of it. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

I think in today’s world too, especially in our space, one of the places agency owners really challenged with is most of the people listening are probably late 30s or older, and most of them are probably mid-40s and older. And they have a workforce that is three or four generations older, younger than they are. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

And they’re very challenged with how to communicate effectively, especially in a remote or hybrid environment, effectively with their team. So let’s talk a little bit about the remote hybrid and that multi generational. How does that complicate being good at this? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yeah. So the wonderful piece about the work that I do is that it really lends itself well to hybrid, remote or in person. Right. In that really what you’re starting to pay attention to, more so than anything, is really what’s happening in your body in that moment. So if you’re on a zoom call or if you’re having trouble with. A lot of times, what I’ve noticed lately is those who are working remote and those who are hybrid and those who are in office. Right. When everyone gets together, it feels a little off. Right. Everybody feels differently about. Some people are coming in, some people aren’t. And it’s, you know, you have a lot of different opinions and thoughts and so on and so forth. So a lot of it is just noticing in the body, the sensation in the body at the time of discomfort. And then once you’re aware of that discomfort, you can pull a practice or a strategy to help you relax and feel calm in the moment so that then you can express yourself in a clear and conscious way. Right. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

So what does that look like? Like if, if I’m learning how to practice this, what are the practical steps of me getting better at this? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Okay. Yeah. So pretty much the, I mean, the first thing you’re going to want to pay attention to is what’s happening in your body. Usually we don’t pay attention to that at all. Right. We’re such a thinking culture society. So it really is seeing. Can you start to notice, even thinking now about, let’s say, the last difficult conversation that you had, Right. What was happening in your body at that time? Maybe your heart was beating faster, maybe your palms were sweating, maybe your jaw felt really tight. Maybe it felt like, you know, kind of like that pit in your stomach or like a little bit nauseous. Right. So becoming really familiar with that sensation is important because that’s actually your cue to know that you’re going to go into a default reaction. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Sometimes we feel those things before the conversation. Right. Like as we’re thinking about, I have to talk to so and so about something. Right? Yeah. At least I know for me, a lot of times the prep to get to the conversation is almost worse than the conversation because I am experiencing all those sensations and I’m trying to talk myself out of having the conversation because I already am feeling all that discomfort that you’re talking about. So I’m trying to talk myself into, maybe I don’t need to do this. This is probably a one, you know, whatever the excuses are. Yeah, Right. So a, for us to be thinking about this, we may be experiencing some of these physical responses or reactions even prior to being in the conversation 100%. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

And the way to work with those sensations before a difficult conversation. Right. Is you’re really paying attention to that discomfort and talking to yourself differently in the moment. Right. Because usually before a difficult conversation, we’re thinking of all the things that we should say or need to say the way we really want to make sure the words sound right. We’re worried about the other person’s reaction. We’re worried about potentially our reaction. And we’re creating a whole story in our mind that does not yet exist. Right. And we get very caught in what we do not know. And so a lot of the work beforehand is noticing that tightness in the chest or the. The sensation and saying, can I drop this story that I have right now and just focus on the direct experience, which is, let’s say, the tightness in the chest or the feeling in the stomach, and then grab a practice, whether it be focusing more on the present moment or being able to do a breath pattern, which we can talk about at some point, but it’s seeing, can I drop the story, focus on the direct experience, and then move forward from there before a conversation. And then when you’re in the difficult conversation and the sensation rises, then you’re grabbing again a specific strategy, like moving your breath from your chest to your belly, or whether it’s talking to yourself differently in that moment so that then you can calm the body and talk. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

So this may sound like a weird question, but I know one of the things you believe is that before we can communicate effectively with other people, we have to be able to communicate effectively with ourselves. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

And so if. If you are a person who stays in your head and. And you’re a type A, you’re a driver, which is probably 99% of our listening audience. I certainly fall into that category. And if somebody says, how do you feel about this thing? I will admit, for me personally, a lot of times I’m like, I don’t actually know. So if you don’t know, I know this sounds stupid, but if you don’t know how you feel. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

How do you figure out how you feel? That sounds like a ludicrous question. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

It doesn’t, because it’s so. It’s so common and so normal, especially with, like, very driven people. Right. Because there is a goal, and it is like, I am on my way to that goal, and I am very direct, and I am very quick and I’m fast, and I want to get there. Right? 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

And when we are in that headspace, we don’t feel anything. Right. Because we’re not paying attention to anything other than what our outcome is that we’re after. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Right. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

And so when someone is asking, we’ll slow down a little bit first. That can feel uncomfortable in general. Right. Like, to slow things down, but then to say, what is happening in your body? How are you feeling in your body? Most of us won’t know the answer. So to be able to become more familiar with it, it really is just taking a minute to think of, like, what is a pleasant sensation, what’s an uncomfortable sensation, and what’s a neutral sensation in the body. Just starting to become familiar with the three types of sensation. And also you can do a little exercise to know if you’re in your body. So right now I just want you to put your attention on your forehead. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Okay? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Okay. Like, you can close your eyes if you want to. Just move your attention to your forehead, like where your mind is, where your brain is. And then move your attention to your belly and just see if you can let your belly hang out. And now move your attention back to your brain or your mind or your forehead. And then bring your attention back to your belly so you can open your eyes. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Okay. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

And tell me what you felt. Did you feel any difference when your attention was unlike the mind than when your attention was in your belly? 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. In my mind, I was thinking. Right. Like, I. Like I had a fuzzy. Because I closed my eyes, so I had, like, this fuzzy vision in my eyes, and I was trying to figure out what it was. Like, I was still in head. And then when I went to the belly, then I was paying more attention to how my body actually felt. Right, Right. And so I was more aware of, interestingly, not just my stomach, but I was aware of just like, oh, my muscles are a little tight. Intense. And. Right. Like, I was feeling. I was feeling more physical feelings than I was when I was thinking about my forehead. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yes. Right. And so that’s what we’re trying to do. Right. We’re trying to move ourselves a little bit out of our head and into our body so that we start to understand that we have. There’s a connection between the body and the mind. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Right? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Right. And so when the body is calm Our thoughts are calm, and then our words are calm. If our body is in stress mode, our thoughts are stress mode. Our language is stress mode. Right. And it all feeds itself. So to get to understanding what am I feeling, we first just have to bring our attention to the body and start to see it. Right. And become aware of it. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

And the only way to do that, I’m guessing, is to consciously, at least in the beginning, to consciously stop and ask yourself that question. Yes. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

It is an active process. Like, it is an active practice. And it doesn’t mean you have to spend a lot of time here. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Right. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

It even could just be in the morning. Right. You just close your eyes and bring your attention to your body. You can say good morning to it. Right. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Sort of acknowledging it. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yeah, acknowledging it. Because we don’t really acknowledge it throughout the day because we are so focused on, like, what’s next, where we’re going, what we need to be doing. Right. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

So as a leader of a company, why does what we’ve talked about so far matter? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Well, it matters because it makes it so that you can be flexible in your thinking. Right. You can adapt to challenges that come up quickly. It helps you creatively figure out different scenarios. Right. Because when we’re really rigid, it’s like martial arts. I don’t know if you’ve ever done martial arts before, okay. But that notion that if. If you’re stiff, right, and somebody attacks you, you’re just going to fall down. But if someone attacks you and you’re grounded in your body, in your legs, in the moment, you can move, you can pivot, right. You can be fluid. And I think as a leader, that is an extremely important quality and characteristic to have because it also gives you the ability to be in challenging conversations and truly be able to listen to what another person is saying and respond instead of react. And being able to respond in these moments is what shows resiliency, but it shows the other person that they can trust you, that they can connect with you. It opens your way of using language in a different way. It’s not as one pointed, focused, that type of stuff. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

We need to take a quick break. But your current book, the Pause Principle, and I know one of your beliefs is that we have to know. So again, everybody listening, they’re a driver. They go, go, go. They’ve got a to do list that’s a mile long. They’re never going to get it all done. They’ve got to have 12 conversations with people. So there’s not a lot of pause. I don’t think in the average leader’s day. And so I want to talk about the importance of pause and how we use that to be better leaders and to be better at our craft when we come back. So let’s take a quick break and let’s come back and talk about the importance of the pause and even how to recognize when we should take one and what a pause looks like. Like, I just don’t think that’s a common skill set for a lot of us. So let’s take a break, and then we’ll come back and dig into that. Hey, everybody. Just want to remind you before we get back to the show that we have a very engaged Facebook group. It’s a private group just for podcast listeners and agency owners that are in the AMI community. And to find it, if you’re not a member, head over to facebook.comgroupsbabaPodcast. so again, facebook.comgroupsbab podcast. All you have to do is answer a few questions to make sure that you are an actual agency owner or leader, and we will let you right in. And you can join over 1700 other agency owners and leaders. And I’m telling you, there’s probably 10 or 15 conversations that are started every day that are going to be of value to you. So come join us. All right, we are back with Cynthia Cain, the author of the Pause Principle and several other books that are all looking at how do we communicate better by starting to understand ourselves better so that we come into that conversation prepared to actually communicate. So right before the break, I was saying that it’s clear in her work and in the title of her most recent book that the notion of pausing as a tool is something that we should understand better. And I am surmising, and in fairness, I’m, I’m assuming all of you are just like me. So with that caveat, there’s not a lot of pause in my world. I represent our audience pretty, you know, accurately in terms of somebody who is a high achiever, high driver, has a lot to do, wants to help as many people as possible, juggling lots of other things. And so, you know, pausing sounds like a delay, right? Not a smart tactic. So talk to us a little bit about the power of the pause and then how we know what it looks like. And I know that sounds ridiculous, too, and then how to know when to apply it. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Pausing is quite powerful, right? In many ways. One what it helps us do is it helps us slow a conversation down, especially things can get heated pretty quickly or the pace of, you know, an Interaction can speed up, and we have a tendency, just as humans, to match the energy that we’re with. So someone else is starting to speak quickly, then we’re going to start speaking quickly. If someone’s getting louder, we’re going to get louder. It’s just how we mirror each other. Right. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Or we do what we talked about before we retreat, right? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Sure. Yes. Or we just head out the door a lot of times. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. Literally or figuratively? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yes. And so to see if we can change the direction of the conversation is really important, because oftentimes when we get caught in these speedy interactions, we don’t get the resolution that we’re really after. At the end of the conversation, we maybe leave feeling like we have to have another conversation or we feel like it was potentially a waste of our time or whatever it might be. So when we can pause, we get the opportunity to gain control of the conversation again, to redirect the focus, to pretty much be able to say to ourselves in the moment, okay, this is going into maybe hurtful territory. It is my responsibility to keep the integrity of the conversation intact. I’m going to pause so that everything can kind of simmer, and then I can come back in with more clarity and more focus and the ability to show up in a way that I respect. So what it really gives you is this moment to be able to assess what’s happening within the interaction and how you want the interaction to go. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

So what’s a trigger That a pause would be a good idea. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

So a pause is a really good idea. When you feel that sensation right. When you start to feel discomfort in the body, when you feel your heart beating faster, when you feel your palms sweating or you’re just clenching your fists, when you start to feel your jaw or your jaw. Yeah. For me, it’s like a balloon that’s expanding in my body and my work. When I start to feel that is okay, how can I deflate this balloon? That’s the pause. The pause is all this energy is building in my body, and I’m holding onto it, and it feels so much that it’s just going to come out. And either I’m going to lash out or I’m just going to shut down and get smaller. We have all the different ways. And so when you start to feel it, that’s when you know, okay, this is my cue to pause. This is my cue to see that maybe I’m leaning in way too much. I need to pull myself back. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

So for each of us, is there one or two sensations that Are sort of our body’s innate go to when we get in that stress situation. So if you. I guess what I’m asking is if I do the work of trying to figure out, oh, I clench my jaw or I close my fist different than you, like you feel this expansion inside. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

We all have different ones. Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Once we identify what the two or three are that are sort of our body’s default reaction to a stressful conversation or situation, then we can start to be more conscious of, oh, I’m clenching my jaw or I’m gritting my teeth or my shoulders feel tight or whatever the thing is. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Right. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

And then that would be for us a trigger of a. We have to be aware of it, we have to be watching for it. But that would be a sign to us that we’re about to get into dangerous territory of some kind. I’m about to say something either in a way I don’t really want to say it, or I’m going to say something I don’t want to say. Okay. So given that in a professional setting, what does a pause look like? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

So a pause looks like expanding that space between the stimulus and the response. So the pause looks like moving yourself out of the stress response and into the parasympathetic nervous system. Right. And that is really like, think of it as, you know, the early morning hours where maybe you’re up before everyone else and you’re sitting with your coffee or you’re looking out or you’re taking a nice walk or you’re going on a hike. Right. Like that is what we want to come into in those moments. So in my book, I talk about the soften practice and there are different practices or strategies that you can use in that moment. One of them is owning your own discomfort in that moment. Usually we want the other person to validate us in difficult conversations, but what we have to do is validate ourselves. It’s almost like we’re self soothing in that moment. So you feel that sensation and then to be able to pause, maybe you actually rub your jaw. Right. A lot of men will rub their jawline. Or you can do finger taps. Like you’re putting your pointer to your thumb, your middle finger to your thumb, your ring finger, your pinky finger, and you’re saying to yourself, maybe you’re saying like, calm begins with me, or you’re just doing finger taps and that will calm you down. Meaning, like that will create the pause. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

So what does that look like to the other person? So if you and I are in a conversation and I’m feeling whatever my triggers are that say we’re getting into dangerous territory. So I’m. To your point? I’m stroking my jaw, which I’m guessing a lot of bearded men do in particular. Or I’m doing the finger tapping. What does that look like to you? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

You don’t. The other person does not notice it. Because, like, with the finger tapping, for example, like, you can even have your hand on your thigh, and you can just press your fingers into your thigh. Right. With the rubbing of the jaw. That’s very common. Right. The same thing. If you even just like, bring your arm, your hand to your. The top of your shoulder, and rub it down to your wrist, it doesn’t look odd. Right. So all of the practices that I talk about are very, very subtle. You can even do in the moment, just seeing if you can access the present moment more. Because we get so caught in the distraction of the language in a conversation, asking ourselves, in that moment, what are my feet doing? What is my belly doing? And what are my hands doing? 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. Okay. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Nobody will know that you’re doing those. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Things, but to you, does it look like this big, long silence? Like, how long is a pause? Like, I’m thinking, Like, are you looking at me? Like, okay, Drew, let’s go. Like, we’re in the middle of this. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Sometimes you’re looking at just a few seconds, right? The pause can be just a few seconds, and then other times, you will extend the pause because you will need more time to be able to feel your body relax. The idea is for the body to feel calm so that you can access yourself in the moment so that then you can express yourself. So sometimes it is odd for the other person because you’re taking a break, basically, like you’re taking a mini vacation. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

While you’re in the middle of a heated conversation. Right? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yeah. And so our work is to give ourselves first permission to do that and let the other person be uncomfortable. It is okay for them to be uncomfortable. And for you, you can actually address it, and you can simply say, like, I need to take a moment here to really gather my thoughts so I can think about it. And then you take the moment if you need to, and then you come back in the conversation. It’s not, I’m going to sleep on it for 24 hours, necessarily. It’s I’m going to take that moment here. What ends up happening is you start training other people to know that this is something important that you do to be able to continue the conversation. Right. It’s almost like you’re checking in with yourself in that moment so that you can navigate it in a way that’s easier. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

So again, sometimes I’m literally saying to you, you know what? I need a second to just wrap my head around this or whatever my language is that says I’m going to be quiet for a few seconds to sort of. And then I’m saying that to you while I am doing whatever I’ve learned to do to get my body into a better place. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yes. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Okay. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yeah. Because then your actions after that are different. Like, your language is different. Well, then a lot of people think that it takes two people to change a conversation, but it really only takes one. Right. So if suddenly after you pause, you come back and you’re speaking with a more calm tone, or your pace is slower, or you’re really choosing your words, the other person can no longer react in the same way that they were reacting. Their energy has to come down, too, to meet your energy. So then what happens is that it really de escalates the interaction simply by you taking that moment and saying either whether it’s verbally and announcing I’m taking a moment, or simply doing it on your own without the other person knowing. Because it’s strange. But it’s almost like in the foreground you have the conversation, and in the background, you are internally working so that you can continue the conversation. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. So if you’re talking to somebody who is assertive and they’re coming at the conversation pretty hot, you pausing, if their reaction is fight, and they’re like, I asked you a question, or blah, blah, blah, or what, you know, like, then you probably do have to verbally say, I need, like, you being quiet. They’re just going to keep coming at you. Right. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Correct. Yeah. You verbally need to say something. Right. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Okay. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

And I mean, you can easily say, like, you know, I hear what you’re saying, and I know you want an answer from me right this minute, for me, I need to take a second so that I can give you the answer that I want to give. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah, okay. Which again, I can totally see how that would de escalate whatever energy they’re coming at you with. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Right. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Not that we have that most of our employees are not that aggressive because we’re obviously in the power position. However, I mean, obviously this is a life skill, not just a work skill, even though we’re talking about it in the ecosystem of work. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Sure, Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

I know. One of the things that you believe is that the worst question that we could ask ourselves is why can you talk about that? Because that sounds weird to me. Right? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

It is weird. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yes. So tell me why you think it sounds weird. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Because again, I am probably somebody who lives very much in my head, and I think that if I understand the why, I can get to whatever answer or outcome I’m trying to get to. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

The reason why I think why is the worst question we can ask ourselves is because it keeps us in the same place. Yeah, right. It keeps us in the same mindset, and it keeps us trying to figure out something and which prevents us from moving forward. And so instead of asking ourselves why, you know, in terms of maybe it’s, you know, why did this thing happen? Or why is this person, you know, acting in this way? Or why is this person saying this or not saying this? Right. We don’t know the answers necessarily, to those questions. And so we could drive ourselves mad trying to figure out what we don’t know. And so instead, it’s just more helpful for us to look at where we are, accept this is the place, and then see what’s the next right action from here. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

So give me a concrete example. So I have an employee who is asking for a raise, and I don’t think they are worthy of a raise. So we’re in a potential conflict kind of conversation. I’m going to disappoint them or make them mad. So in my head, I would be thinking, here are the reasons why Babette hasn’t earned a raise. Right. Like, I’d be thinking of all the rational reasons why that I could explain to Babette why it’s not the right time for her to have a raise or whatever. What should I be doing instead? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

So instead, internally or in the conversation? 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Both. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Okay, well, so internally, I mean, I think in that instance, it’s more about knowing, right. I know that these are the reasons this person doesn’t deserve a raise. And then when you’re in the conversation, I mean, you’re sharing the reasons. I guess I don’t see it as the why. I see it more as, like, these are the facts. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Okay? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Right. Like this is what it is as opposed to why it is. Because why it is is different why it is. It might be because they’re not getting the support that they need. Maybe they didn’t get the training that they needed. Maybe, you know, they’re not understanding their position or their role or. Right? So that, to me, is more the why. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Okay? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

So I guess in those situations, you can take the reasons and you can see potentially from that where maybe more work needs to be made. Right. Like what? 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Or, or their why? Maybe they just found out they’re going to have a baby so they need more money or they want to buy a house. There may be external wise for them. Right, right. So I know one of the principles that you lean into is that I’m trying to wrap my head around this sort of stay in your body. The we have to know what we want or need out of a conversation before we engage in it. Right? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

So that’s great. If I’m initiating the conversation, right, then I can kind of plan ahead. I can think, oh, I have to talk to this team member about this thing or my wife about this thing or whatever it is. But if a conversation comes at me, how do I quickly figure out what I need or want in a conversation I didn’t expect? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Well, and that is, so that’s where the pause comes in as well. Right. Because then that space that we take, that we’re carving out, that’s when we get to reconnect and ask ourselves in the moment, what is it that I really want from this interaction? What do I need to be saying in this interaction? What is the point or what is the outcome for me here? Right. So we give ourselves the time within the conversation to reconnect with why or the goal. But it is really, it’s important to, you know, before you have a conversation to really understand that we get, we get so caught up in worrying that the other person is going to react or the group of people are going to react and going in, we just need to know that whatever we’re going to say, somebody is going to react to because like how you mentioned in the beginning, we are wired to react, that it’s just our human nature. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Right, right. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

And so the way I like to see it is it’s almost like you have, visually it reminds me of, I don’t know if you know, the image of the Atlas man where the guy is holding up the world. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Holding up the world. Yeah, yeah. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

So it’s almost in a conversation what you are doing is you’re expressing your point and then you’re holding up the other person’s reaction. So you’re just watching the other person’s reaction, you’re just observing what they’re saying, knowing that they’re going to be reacting this way and you’re just holding it and then they’re done and then you come back to your original purpose and point of view. So when they’re reacting you can be checking back in with what the outcome is. That you need from the conversation. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

So if someone else is initiating a conversation, an employee says, hey, do you have five minutes? Or whatever? And you have no idea what’s coming. Right. If we don’t take the pause, is there sort of a natural reaction that we default to like, I want to win the conversation or I want to like, are there like just human truths that without taking the pause, where do. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

We go without taking the pause? Well, one place we go is into protection mode. So that’s where we all have our own specific ones that we talked about. Maybe lashing out, shutting down, walking out, dodging, lying over, explaining. And then the other place we go is into wanting to potentially win the argument. Not the argument, but the conversation itself. Or we want to establish ourselves as whether we know it or not better then or with no more. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Right, right, exactly. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

And so it’s really an exaggeration where we’re at. And so that’s usually where we will go instead though, if we can think of maybe more like clarity over winning in a conversation that changes the conversation. Right. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah, well, and I guess what I’m thinking about as you’re talking, I’m thinking if our goal as a leader is to be collaborative and to be empathetic and to be visionary and all the things that we know a leader should be. If every conversation that we don’t initiate starts with us wanting to win or doing our fight or flight, depending on the conflict level of the conversation being right or winning, if it’s a low stakes emotionally thing, or fight or flight, if it’s a high stakes emotional thing, Neither of those reactions get us where we want to go. I mean, if we truly want to be that kind of leader, or even if we’re not, even if somebody’s listening and they’re not in the leadership role, if we want to be that kind of communicator, if you’re the team member who has to have a hard conversation with your boss, if you go into it or they start a conversation with you and you’re either trying to be right or win or you’re going to fight or flight, none of that actually accomplishes what you’re trying to accomplish? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

No, not at all. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

So we sort of have to get better at this if we want to be effective communicators and effective leaders. Whether it’s a defined leadership or it’s an indefined leadership, if we really want to show up as a leader in our organization, regardless of where we are in the org chart, this is a skill we have to master. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Definitely. It’s what sets the tone for everything. Right. I mean, and if every day. I mean, every day. I mean, I wish there were more calm conversations, but when you think about it, daily, you’re putting out fires every single day somehow, whether they’re small or they’re big. And if every single one creates stress, and if every single one creates, you know, reactive behavior, it’s not only going to give a reputation of that. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

But it. It’s also not good for your health either. Right. Like, it can lead to a lot of burnout, for sure, and just a lot more stress. And, you know, with stress comes difficulty sleeping and, you know, all of it. So it affects not only that one conversation, but it really affects your entire life. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. Yeah. It’s fascinating. Again, as we started the conversation, it sounds so simple. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

I know, I know. I wish it were. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Why isn’t it easier? Like, in all your studies and all your work? Again, this doesn’t sound like it should be rocket scientists, and yet none of us know how to do it. Most of us don’t do it. Why is it so hard? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Well, it’s so hard. One, our biology, which we talked about. Right. Like, we are wired to react. Two, it’s also like, the world that we live in is so fast right now. Right. Like, and the idea is bigger, faster, more, more, more. And what this requires is for us to do the opposite of what we are told to be doing potentially. Right. Like, it is slowing everything down. It is taking control over how we are communicating. It is changing our relationship to ourselves in a challenging moment. It’s changing our relationship to someone else in that moment. And it requires us to be really mindful and intentional. And so much of our lives now are autopilot. Right. We are just doing the things. And so it really. It, like, reminds me of that moment when you’re about to land in a plane and it’s like you hear the loud roar because the plane is stopping, and it’s like this immense force that has to stop. Right? 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

And that’s really what this work requires. It requires that we completely pull, almost. It’s like we’re pulling the emergency brake so that we can gain composure and gain control again. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah, and hit the Runway. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yeah, and hit the Runway. There’s like, this story I love about this horse. This guy is riding the horse and he’s trotting along, and the guy on the side is like, where are you going? And the guy on the horse is like, I don’t know. Ask the horse. And I feel like, that’s one of the challenges we have is that, you know, we’re all on the horse and letting the horse guide us. But really our work is to remember we have the reins, and if we just take the time. Yeah, we can actually guide where it’s going. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. This has been fascinating. So if folks want to learn more about your work, I know they can get your books anywhere books are sold. But if they want to learn more about your work, if they want to follow your work, if they want to reach out, if they have questions, what’s the best way for people to reach you? 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yeah, so you can go to my website, cynthiakane.com also, you can just reach out to me [email protected] and I know it’s a long email, but that is intentional so that you have to slow down. But, yes, you can always reach out. And then you can find me on Instagram @cy kane1. And then I’m also on YouTube. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

1. You know, our email is really long. It’s agencymanagementinstitute.com I’ve never thought about having a good reason for it other than I didn’t think it through, but I like your reason.

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yeah, it slows you down, and that’s. That’s a good thing. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. This has been really fascinating. Thank you. Thanks for sharing your expertise and your own story in this. It’s. This is an important life skill that regardless of age or rank or file or where people are at in their life, it’s probably never too late to learn how to do it. And it probably adds, I’m guessing, some very immediate benefits, both personally and professionally. And so I’m really grateful that you’re on the show and that you’re teaching us these things to sort of make us aware of what’s possible if we choose to slow down and retrain ourselves a little bit. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Yeah. And it is, like, what’s wonderful about it, it’s a learned practice. So it’s something you can learn to do at any point in time. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. This has been great. Thank you for. 

 

Cynthia Kane: 

Thank you so much. Yeah, I appreciate it. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

All right, listeners, this was a little off the beaten path for us. I know normally we’re super practical and business oriented. And I do want to challenge you if you were like, little woo woo for me, Drew, I do want to challenge you to kind of look in the mirror and think about how this might be transformative to you, even if you just get it a little bit better. Like, even if you’re not a master at it. And you don’t master the pause. If every once in a while it occurs to you to pause or you have a little better sense of when I’m in a tense situation, here’s how my body feels just so you can start recognizing that you’re going into that situation. I think it is actually quite practical, and I think it is about how we show up as leaders. And at the end of the day, one of the things we know, we know from data, we know from research, we know from our own experience, is the work we do is hard and complicated. And we’re asking people to do hard things. And one of the reasons why they keep coming back every day when you think about your team is because of the leader that they follow. And that when they have confidence in you and they know they can talk to you and you communicate clearly and in a way that feels good and right to them, they’re much more likely to stick around. They’re much more likely to follow you into the fire when you need them to drive into a fire for a client or for the team or whatever you’re asking them to do. They’re more likely to rise to the occasion when they have confidence in you. And this is a way for you to build amazing confidence for yourself with your team, with your clients, with your family. So I want you to just let it soak a little bit and think about, if I could get 15% better at this, what would it mean? If I could get 25% better at this, what could it mean? Because I suspect it is incremental. Like, I’m thinking about this for myself. I’m not going to go from zero to 60 overnight. But if I get a little better at it every day, every week, then, you know, in a year, I’m probably pretty good at it. And so it’s like all things that we have to learn, right? It’s going to be incremental, but I suspect we will see the benefits far earlier than we see mastery. Right? Because I don’t think a lot of people are good at this. And so you would stand out from the crowd if you’re even sort of good at it. So that’s my challenge for you, is to find a way to just get a little better at this and to accept the fact that although it’s not, it doesn’t sound like math or, you know, the things we normally talk about, that it is equally important for you as a leader and honestly as a human being, to figure out a way to Be a little better at this for. For nothing else, for yourself and then for your team, for your family, for your friend, like all the people in your world. But give yourself this gift of. Of at least thinking about how you might do this a little different. So that’s my challenge for you. All right, on that note, I want to thank our friends at White Label iq. They are the presenting sponsor of this podcast, as you know, and they do amazing things for agencies every day. They show up as partners for web dev, ppc, and design. If you need to build an app for a client, if you need a landing page for a client, if you need a website for a client, if you need to improve your PPC results for clients, they’re a great partner to turn to if you have no one on staff or if you need some extra hands. So head over to white labeliq.com ami to learn a little bit more about them. They are also the presenting sponsor of the Build a Better Agency Summit. So they’ll be on site. You can meet them. You can get to know them. I’ve known them for 20 years. They’re good, good human beings who treat their clients really well. So I highly recommend that you reach out to them. And last but certainly not least, I think you know, and I try and close every show with this. I’ grateful. I am really grateful that we get to hang out and that I wouldn’t have had a chance to meet Cynthia and have this conversation if it weren’t for you listening to the show, because she doesn’t want to just pick up the phone and talk to me, but she loves talking to all of us. So I’m grateful that I have this vehicle to learn from and to help you learn from. So thanks for listening. Keep coming back. I will come back if you do, and I’ll see you next week. All right, talk to you soon.