How Prioritizing Fun Inspires Success with Mike Rucker

Drew McLellan [00:00:37]: 

Hey everybody, this is Drew Mclellan with another episode of Build a Better Agency. Thanks for joining us today. Wherever we may find you, whether you’re on vacation or you are at the beach, or you’re at your desk or you’re on a treadmill, we’re happy to have you with us. Today’s guest is a great one. We’re gonna have a really good sort of fun conversation which I think will be a nice shift from some of the serious stuff we’ve been talking about. But fun can be serious and we’re going to talk about that as well. Before I introduce him to you, let me just remind you that we have lots of great workshops coming up this fall. So the brand new workshop that we taught this spring, growing the clients you already have, was met with rave reviews and a lot of you were disappointed that you couldn’t make it in April. And so we’ve added that to our September calendar. So to find out more about that workshop and register, you can just head over to the Agency Management Institute website under how we Help. You can find the workshop tab and then you’ll find the workshop right there. So we would love to have you join us. It’s a heavy lift and it’s really meant for senior folks. So I wouldn’t be sending like a Junior Woodchuck AE or somebody new. It’s probably a director level like department head of account service or an OPS person. We had a lot of owners in the room. We’re going to teach you a methodology of how to grow your existing clients. And it’s not just with AES. It’s really how the whole team has to play a role. And so you want to make sure you have the right folks in that workshop who can start making the changes that we’re going to recommend in that workshop. So we’d love to see you there. All right. Mike rucker has a PhD. He is a behavioral psychologist and he wrote a really interesting book under the premise of we don’t do a really great job of having fun. And that fun and that sort of playtime is critical for all human beings but when you think about the work that we do and how we are being called upon to come up with not just ideas, but big ideas all the time, we have to have the space in our brain to do that. And, you know, just like, you know that oftentimes you get your best ideas when you’re driving or in the shower. You’re kind of. Your brain is not focused on the problem, but you’ve fed it the problem earlier, and then you sort of let it simmer in the background for a while. And when your brain is at rest or taking a break or on a walk or doing something that feels more relaxing and more fun, it just gives your brain room to breathe and to really do its best work. And so Mike has a lot of ideas about how we can sort of pack that into our day in a way that. That feels really manageable. And then over time, the hope is, of course, as you find that you are just as productive, if not more productive, when you take those little breaks, that maybe you can find room for even more of them. So without further ado, I would love to introduce you to him, and let’s find out what he has to say. Mike, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us. 

Mike Rucker [00:03:39]: 

Oh, thanks so much for having me. 

Drew McLellan [00:03:41]: 

Tell everybody a little bit about your background as a behavioral scientist. The book kind of what led you to write the book. And then I’ve got a million questions. 

Mike Rucker [00:03:50]: 

Yeah, no worries. So that I’ve got the elevator pitch down now, but I do think giving a quick background about what positive psychology is for folks that don’t know, I think is important and why I found it important to kind of deviate from some of the main themes of that discipline. So positive psychology has been around for quite some time, but it was really brought forth at the beginning of the millennium as a way to take tools of psychology that had historically only been used to treat poor mental health, poor folks, just to use an everyday life for betterment. So things like gratitude and mindfulness had always been there, but especially as academics and practitioners, we’d only been really talking about this with regards to psychology and in the field of treating mental health. So positive psych was, how can we use all of these tools for people’s betterment, no matter where they’re at? And rightfully, because we hadn’t talked about it up until that point, we kind of honed in on happiness at the beginning because that’s a big topic, right? We created things like the World Happiness Index, and, you know, we started looking at that as a construct but interestingly, we kind of probably overemphasized it. And paradoxically, what we found is when we made people too introspective of their own happiness, we were actually creating some of the most unhappy people. And I fell victim to that. There’s a couple things that happened. One, now you’re not doing the stuff that makes you happy, right. Because you’re sitting thinking about it, right. 

Drew McLellan [00:05:22]: 

About how unhappy you are, right? 

Mike Rucker [00:05:24]: 

Yeah, that’s right. And you get stuck in all the traps of happiness. You start to compare yourself too much, you think too much about the rank of where you’re at, which is, you know, especially if you’re someone hungry for growth, you’re never going to be where you want. Right. So that’s not really a great position to wallow in. 

Drew McLellan [00:05:41]: 

Right. 

Mike Rucker [00:05:42]: 

The other is that, you know, once you kind of get into that space, it can start to bleed into your identity. And that’s part of the first part. The second part is if you do have a good stretch, right. If you’ve kind of over optimized for happiness and you get in this kind of Pollyanna state, which is where I found myself, you start to lose emotional flexibility. I mean, life is always going to have slings and arrows, right. You might have a good stretch, right? 

Drew McLellan [00:06:06]: 

Right. 

Mike Rucker [00:06:07]: 

Might keep betting on black on the roulette table and for whatever reason you hit it ten in a row. But if you get that good stretch and then something bad happens, right. The red comes up, you don’t have the wherewithal anymore to navigate that and you really do get knocked on your butt. And that’s what I found. But if happiness as a construct had somehow gone awry, I wanted to unpack what that was. And so that’s what led to the book. It was really a research project, somewhat self servingly because I found myself unhappy. But then also, why is it that happiness as a construct has become problematic and what can we do? 

Drew McLellan [00:06:47]: 

So out of that came the book called the Fun Habit. And so talk a little bit. Because fun and happiness aren’t necessarily the same. Right. One I would like to think leads to the other. But what made you focus on fun? 

Mike Rucker [00:07:02]: 

Yeah. So it’s really just a nod to the fact that when we do enjoy ourselves, it really is in the moment. Right. And so there were a couple things that needed to happen. One, especially here in North America and Western culture, we villainized fun, really needed to rebrand. Right. And there’s a whole host of different reasons, like oftentimes and I won’t get us on an off ramp. You know, when we talk about obesity, someone will want to say it’s one cause, right? It’s new urban design. We don’t walk enough. It’s plate size, right? Plates used to be small, and now they’re big. It’s probably all of those things, right? And so fun getting villainized is the same thing. I can’t give you a distinct reason, but the puritan work ethic, right? The fact that we’re stuck in meritocracy, we’re always looking at achievement, and when we’ll celebrate, often some horizon that never arrives. So no matter what it is, and for each person, it’s going to be different. Fun had sort of become this thing of like, well, I’ll do that later, once all of the hard work is done. And yet what we found is the folks that aren’t enjoying themselves don’t enjoy the process, paradoxically, start to fall down. Right. We find them in a downward spiral. And so I think the parallel that’s often helpful for people is the same thing we found out about sleep, right? You know, when stimulants came online in the 80s and 90s and people were able to sort of grind things out, we had this false notion, at least for a while, that if we worked, you know, just a little bit more after the kids went to bed and woke up earlier than, you know, our neighbor, we would somehow be better off. And now even the most staunch productivity experts say no, Sleep hygiene is where we start. Right? So you have the vigor and vitality to actually show up the next day. And we’re now finding that that same is true for enjoying what you do. The principle behind that’s the hedonic flexibility principle. The problem is it’s a slower burn, right? So you get bad sleep for two or three weeks, actually, depending on some experts, just a couple days, and you immediately know the consequence. Right, right. The problem is this record level of burnout we’re seeing across all vocations, especially here in North America. It’s due to this, but it takes, like, two or three months to happen. And so oftentimes you’re not asking the right questions. Right. You’re really just like, I don’t know, man. I just don’t like what I’m doing. Or I’m just, you know, there’s something. 

Drew McLellan [00:09:24]: 

You start to dread Mondays or whatever it is. 

Mike Rucker [00:09:27]: 

Right, Exactly. Right, yeah. 

Drew McLellan [00:09:29]: 

So talk a little bit about this principle, the hedonic flexibility principle. Tell us what that means. 

Mike Rucker [00:09:34]: 

Yeah. So in a nutshell, you know, there’s this Old philosophical idea, right, that we’re pleasure seeking animals. We’re either trying to figure out how to have more pleasure and brightly, we would call that fun. I guess just to back up real quickly, you know, so folks are like, what does fun mean to this guy? Right. And I’m an academic side do need to have a definition, but it’s a simple one, right? In psychology we call it valence, but that’s just a geeky word on packet really quickly, right? Valence is the spectrum. And all it means is if you’re in positive valence, you’re enjoying what you’re doing, it’s pleasurable, right? You’re drawn to it, you want to do it again. If you’re on the negative side, you’re repelled by it. You know, it’s either agonizing or maybe just mildly discomforting, right? But it’s not fun, it’s not pleasurable. You know, if you had the choice, you probably wouldn’t be doing that. Right, Right. And so the idea goes that, you know, we’re always kind of trying to get on this right side of valence. You know, that’s the prevailing kind of philosophical debate. And so fun is again just associated with like, am I enjoying what I’m doing? The hedonic flexibility idea, when people started to study, it was this big question, you know, if we’re enjoying ourselves, are we just going to go and seek out more pleasure? Right? Or if we’re in pain, are we going to try and get ourselves out of it? And so it should be no surprise in line with kind of common wisdom that if we are in pain, right? If we hate what we do, if our family dynamics are kind of not great, we do want to escape that. So we tend to go look for four forms of escapism to do that, right? And we’ll trick ourselves into thinking that’s fun things like, you know, as benign as social media use just to displace that discomfort by keeping our mind off things. Or, you know, casually watching television so not villainizing, like watching your favorite show where you’re encoding that information or having a great date night with your partner where if I asked you a week from now, you tell me in rich detail, like, yeah, it was just, you know, this show was amazing and I loved the time with my spouse or partner. I mean, the time where you’re plopping down on your couch and I’m like, hey, what did you watch? I don’t know, you know, three hours passed by and, you know, maybe it was x Y or Z. So those things, we kind of trick ourselves into thinking they’re entertainment, but they’re really just displacing these things that aren’t enjoyable, right? And so what we found is that when folks are in that state, it tends to be this downward spiral. Show up the next day. We don’t have the energy to work, so work sucks then, you know, rinse and repeat. 

Drew McLellan [00:12:03]: 

Sure. 

Mike Rucker [00:12:03]: 

The surprising finding in this principle is that the folks that by deliberate design, right, so we’re scheduling active leisure into their schedule after work had true transition rituals. So, like 6pm my day is done because I feel good about the day. And now, you know, I can go to something as benign as that book club with my friends or, you know, go to that group exercise class or take that dance class or go hang out with my kids. Whatever fun is for you, right? Those folks that had filled their fun cup went and looked for the harder challenges now because they know, similar to sleep, that they have, you know, a good metric of fun in their lives. They actually now don’t need it anymore. And so they go look for things that lead to betterment. And additionally, they show up the next day and they’re more productive. So it now has this accretive effect, right? Where they find themselves in this upward spiral until they meet equilibrium. And guess what? By, you know, as a lagging indicator, they’re some of the most happy people. And with regards to what your audience might be interested in adjacent science. So this isn’t necessarily, you know, specific to the dynamic flexibility principle, but folks that find themselves in this state are the ones that are able to think in the most nonlinear fashion. So we find folks that do have a balance of fun in their life are the most creative because they can think in a nonlinear fashion. And so intuitively, I think most people would understand this. If you’re depleted, if you’re tired, if you’re not enjoying things, you need to rely on your heuristics and algorithms to get through the day. You’re just like, just let me get. I need to get from point A to point B so the day can be done right? And the folks that feel, you know, have this level of personal safety because they know that, you know, life is kind of working for them. They’re the ones that can kind of, you know, break eggs and make the best omelet. 

Drew McLellan [00:13:59]: 

So I know one of the principles of your book is that you talk about the fact that a little, like we hear about date night, but you really shouldn’t just wait for fun to happen someday or have, you know, oh, well, I’ve got a vacation in three months, so I’m putting off the fun until I’m on vacation. But then we have to actually kind of design our life to have these moments. And one of the other things I thought was interesting was it’s not big moments, it’s not three week vacations, it’s not winning the lottery, it’s not these momentous things, but it’s small, consistent sort of moments of joy or fun that balance out the rest of life. So talk a little bit about that idea of how much fun do I need? What is the quotient of, you know, how much do I bake into my day, my week? And how small is big enough? 

Mike Rucker [00:14:54]: 

Yeah. So fortunately someone’s done this work because initially I didn’t have a good answer. So a tip of the hat to another researcher in this area who has an amazing book herself called the Happier Hour. But she really did look at this from a quantitative standpoint. So the Goldilocks spot seems to be between two to five hours. After five hours, especially if it’s kind of whimsical enjoyment, anyone that wants to live with purpose tends to be like, okay, you know, maybe the other 19 hours of the day I should be, you know, doing something that’s kind of fulfillment. So we’re talking about folks that kind of, you know, as a huge level hypothetical. This is like me living in make believe. Not, you know, if you love music festivals, great. But if you’re going from Burning man to Lightning in a Bottle and, you know, not really being productive, that will probably start to erode on your mental health. But as a general guideline, and that seems so much to folks, Right? Because we’re talking about folks that aren’t enjoying themselves at all in the 168 hours they have in their week. And some of this fun could happen at work. Right. But to answer your question, we kind of know that two to five hours is a good measure. 

Drew McLellan [00:16:05]: 

Two to five hours a day, a week. Okay. 

Mike Rucker [00:16:09]: 

Yeah. But I say just start with one to three hours a week where you’re really, you know, the crux of this comes from self determination theory. And it’s really when we feel like we’ve lose the agency and autonomy for us to do anything in our own lives. And that’s the problem, right. When we get busy, especially as entrepreneurs and we feel like we’re serving others. Like, granted, we know that there’ll be some reward at the end of the day, but we feel like we’re giving it all away. What happens sort of inside ourselves is we feel like we’ve lost control, right? And control really is a central part to feeling good about how we live our life. 

Drew McLellan [00:16:45]: 

Right. 

Mike Rucker [00:16:45]: 

And so having some creativity and agency and autonomy to grab some of that back, it’s not only good for you, but it’s going to be better for your business too. Again, when you look back at things like the flexibility principle. So some folks that get hung up kind of in the guilt, I often see this with working mothers. You know, there’s this idea of the sandwich generation. We’re in our era right now, right? It’s good that our parents are living longer than they ever have. But a lot of us are also having kids later in life. And what has happened is where our parents used to help, now we’re having to take care of them and take care of our kids. So we’re more time poor than we’ve ever been in modern era. And yet we still need some time off the table for ourselves, for us to be able to serve others, whether that’s our employees or domestic duties, if that is the situation you find yourself in. So making sure that you are pragmatic like that is important. The other kind of headwind there, right, is that oftentimes scheduling fun in seems like homework, not really the first step in getting this right, isn’t really that fun. Right. But luckily that the lift isn’t that big, right. So it’s really just, you know, figuring out what it is that you want to do. And oftentimes that’s a 30 minute experiment, right. I just, I call it creating your fun file. 30 minutes of premeditation about who are your fun friends that you haven’t connected with, you know, for a while, what are the things that you’d like to be doing and then just figuring out how to get those on your schedule. And as trite as that sounds, so many of us don’t do that, right? 

Drew McLellan [00:18:21]: 

Well, again, it’s the same recommendation they make about date night, that you know, if you want to tend to your marriage or your relationship, that sometimes you have to schedule that, as unromantic as it sounds, but it just makes sure that it gets done. So let’s talk a little bit about time because I think you’re right. I think one of the reasons why people don’t have more variety in their life, that they don’t make room for these moments or these this hour that gives them some joy, is they feel time starved. But the reality is you talk about in your book that how we spend our time and having autonomy over our time, having some influence and having some wiggle rooms, I think you call it time affluence is actually a better indicator of us being happy than how much money we make or our title. So talk a little bit about sort of what’s behind that. 

Mike Rucker [00:19:14]: 

So time is the only resource that we can’t make more of. Right? Right. And so when folks are able to comprehend that we have a finite amount of time, then they start to make better choices with that time. And the thing is, when we look, and this is kind of, you know, I tried to now because I’m such an academic, make things, you know, more accessible. But if you kind of geek out on time survey data, we know folks, even really busy folks are generally kidding themselves that they’re not too busy. It really just comes down to kind of mixed up priorities. Right. And so there are a couple of things to do to course correct there. One is that by creating constraints in your business, you generally do better. 

Drew McLellan [00:20:00]: 

Right? 

Mike Rucker [00:20:00]: 

Right. And so, you know, I’m not a productivity expert, but all that stuff is so accessible now. Right. Like a lot of the things that you’re allowing to crowd out time with loved ones are things that you don’t really need to do in your business. It’s just that busyness is essentially pacifying you because you’re like, well, I’m here, the world knows that I’m grinding it out. Yeah, but that’s not really contributing anything. In fact, it’s actually eroding your ability to do a good job. And it’s also sending a signal to your employees that you don’t care about their well being through this concept of social contagion. So figuring out how to course correct that isn’t just a selfish act of self care. It’s really getting yourself back on the rails to be productive. Right. And so with regards to time affluence, all that means is do you feel like you have control to spend time in a way that you want? And the thing is, any entrepreneur does, right? It’s just a fallacy to say that if you own the business, you can’t control how you spend your time. In fact, Shah Bloom just created a great book about this, the five Types of Wealth. Right? One of the five types is time. And he talks about the CEO of Netflix during time of Netflix biggest growth, where he insisted on having a date night with his wife every Tuesday. So if the CEO of Netflix can make sure that he preserves time for his loved ones, I’M pretty sure you can, too. And those things become so important because your partners, right, and your loved ones and your friends, those are the ones that, that are going to give you that resilience when time gets tough. And it’s not like you need to think about friendships and partnerships as a bank, sure. But you still want there to be some reciprocity and some sort of equity. And if you’re not tending to those, then guess what? They fall apart. Right? And so getting back to your question, we only have 168 hours, and so figuring out how to take some of that time off the table so that we are enjoying at least part of our time. Right? A lot of times I work with healthcare folks that can’t control that amount of time, but they can create that transition ritual where they’re like, okay, now my work is done. Right? And it’s funny just kind of, again, this work ethic in North America, where we know it leads to less productivity, yet because it’s so socially normative, it’s hard to unroot. France just created a law, right? That said organizations that aren’t mission critical have to turn off their email servers at 5pm on a Friday to send that signal that Saturdays and Sundays are meant to be reserved for family and for yourself, and then you’ll get back to work on Monday. And yet folks like o’ Leary from Shark Tank and Martha Stewart, who are billionaires that built their wealth on the backs of others are like, this is why French people suck. You got to take those big ideas and start to unpack. Who are the ones that are telling you that you should be grinding it out on both ends? 

Drew McLellan [00:22:55]: 

Right? Right. I want to talk more about this. Let’s take a quick break. And then I want to talk about how the way we work today, with a lot of people in hybrid situations working from home, how that makes it even harder to kind of separate. So let’s take a quick break and then we’ll come back and talk a little bit about that. Hey, everybody, just want to remind you before we get back to the show that we have a very engaged Facebook group. It’s a private group just for podcast listeners and agency owners that are in the AMI community. And to find it, if you’re not a member, head over to facebook.com groups b a bapodcast. So again, facebook.com groups babpodcast. All you have to do is answer a few questions to make sure that you are an actual agency owner or leader, and we will let you right in. And you can join over 1700 other agency owners and leaders. And I’m telling you, there’s probably 10 or 15 conversations that are started every day that are going to be of value to you. So come join us. All right, we are back with Mike Rucker and we are talking about fun and we are talking about putting little moments of happiness and joy and not working all the time into your day actually makes you more productive. It makes you more creative. And right before the break, I was saying, I suspect it gets even more complicated because of our post Covid work style, that many of you are working at least part of the time from home, if not all the time. We can work on planes because we have WI fi. I can remember on a plane I used to always read, and now, honestly, I don’t. I pop on the WI fi and I’m working away. So I’m curious. When I was a kid, my dad would come home, he’d walk in the door in a suit, he would go upstairs. So his work dad walked in the door, he would go upstairs, he put on his jeans and a shirt, and he would come back down. And then dad was home. And so to your point, this ritual of sort of segmenting out your day and signaling to your, your body, emotionally, mentally, physically, that part of the day is closed and now it’s time to do something different. Do you find that people struggle with this more given A, we carry a computer in our pocket, so, you know, your email’s with you 247 and so is the Internet. And B, you know, for most of us, we work at least part of the time at home. And so the end of the workday is different than it used to be. You used to get in the car and go home. 

Mike Rucker [00:25:31]: 

No, you’re exactly right. And so what happens is that when we allow ourselves always to be on, our brain never has the chance to cycle down. And so we very much, as much as humans don’t like to admit it, we are like computers, right? So imagine leaving your computer on for a whole month straight without rebooting it. And so creating that transition ritual. My dad was the same way. He was a professor in the published parish world, so he had to work hard, and a lot of times it was late nights at a lab, but he didn’t have a way to email his colleagues at night. So when he came home, there was that chance, you know, even though his windows were small for that type of renewal. Yet, like, this is the scenario for a lot of parents, right? They’re still on a work call. As they walk into the house, right? Kids that they’re yelling at for being on screens too much, see them modeling the same behavior because after they get off the phone, even though dinner’s on the table, they’re finishing off the email because someone asked them to wrap that up for the day is done. The phone actually buzzes, which, if you are mindful of it, gives you a visceral response because again, you know, we’re all kind of dopamine wired now. And so we know there’s some sort of variable thing, you know, reward or treasure or, you know, haphazard on the other end. So we’re itchy and it becomes this perpetual cycle where we’re not done with work until our bed hits the pillow. And then guess what our phone is. Our alarm clock wakes us up and we see the notifications that we need to tend to. And so many folks find themselves in that, and it’s an easy thing to break. And again, there’s a whole host of different studies that show that the folks that actually do take breaks are the ones that do more. And there’s a whole host of productivity reasons that I don’t think it’s in the scope of our discussion, but the ability to time block those emails so that you’re more efficient at email. We call it admin work and social psychology. When you drag those things out, you become less efficient at them all the time, for all the reasons that folks probably already know. We kid ourselves into thinking we can multitask. Almost no one can when we’re cycling different tasks because we’re always kind of scatterbrained. We’re never efficient at any of them. And then also, if we’re depleted, we can’t think of any innovative solutions. We preserve no time for deep work. The simple answer to that, again, is a transition ritual. And it does a couple things. One, it allows your brain to know the workday is over. For some folks, it’s simply just taking a walk when they get home. For others, it’s a meditative practice in the car using something like Sam Harris is waking up or whatever it is, but something that resets the mind that I am meant to be there for the folks that I love. So that time is actually restorative. And the thing is, that has ripple effects now because the kids, your kids, right? Or your partner is like, wait a second, this person’s present. I can actually share time. It’s a we situation. It’s not a me, like I’m competing with this thing, you know, even though this guy says he loves me. Like, it’s clear he doesn’t. Because anytime I try to make eye contact with them and share mirror neurons, this dude’s looking at his notifications. Right. And so, and again, the rub is, is that you actually end up being less productive. And I could share with your audience a host of different studies, but I think the big one is bcg, Boston Consulting Group, you know, who are always on consultants, thought that if they took Fridays off to actually do deep work and not engage with clients, that because clients had so come to rely on them 24 7, that either clients would leave or the work product would suffer. And quite the contrary, the clients actually liked, okay, Fridays are the days I’m not meant to bother you. And now these folks actually had the time to create better work for the clients. So in almost any instance, once you can instill this, you actually do better. And then again, the nice byproduct is you actually improve your physiological and psychological well being as well. 

Drew McLellan [00:29:45]: 

Yeah. So you talk a little bit about the idea and we touched on it, but there was a line that you used that was, if you don’t schedule your joy, someone else will schedule your burnout. So it feels like this is not optional. Which sounds funny that, you know, joy and fun are not optional. But it sounds like that given the technology around us and that we could work 247 and not only do we have the technology to do that, but it’s socially acceptable to do it. And in fact, it’s probably socially rewarded in some cases. 

Mike Rucker [00:30:21]: 

Correct. 

Drew McLellan [00:30:22]: 

Talk a little bit about the notion of if I’m somebody who’s a workaholic, which some might suggest that I am, how do I engage the other people in my life to help me? 

Mike Rucker [00:30:36]: 

Right. 

Drew McLellan [00:30:36]: 

If I need some help with this, if this is not my gift, and I know that a lot of the listeners are probably like, this sounds great for everybody else, but I’m running an agency and I’ve got people, their mortgages are dependent on me. And you know, we’re in the middle of tariffs and you know, there’s a lot of hard things happening right now. There’s uncertainty in the market, clients are anxious about things. Now is not the time for me to have fun. So if they’re hearing this and they’re like, well, my logical brain says this makes sense. But the more primitive version of me is like, nope, nope, nope, grind, grind, grind. How do we get help doing this? 

Mike Rucker [00:31:13]: 

Yeah. So there are a few things, I think if you find yourself in that level of crisis, it’s really just again, going back to when I said, how can you play with one to three hours out of your 168, right? So if you need the proof, figure out what that is and create the constraints around that time so that you’re not cheating, right? Hopefully you’re doing it with folks that you want to spend time with. Because a lot of folks that I find in that paradigm that you just described are also lonely, whether they admit it or not, because they’re not around people they care about, right? So I feel like those people will still be there, you know, when the work is done, but then oftentimes years pass, right? In fact, we see failed marriages and entrepreneurship all the time for this reason. So figuring out who it is or what it is, if you’re an introvert that you want to do, doing it in earnest. So to the best of your ability, you know, putting your phone down and mindfully engaging in this activity, there’s one caveat. If it you find out like it was a mistake, actually, this thing isn’t fun, right? Do it until you figure out the fun thing, you know, but then check in with yourself, right? And even if doing that is difficult, again, I’m going to go back to work. From Cassie Holmes. She had folks who were busy just on the end of day Friday go into their weekend reminding themselves that it’s a vacation, to have a vacation mindset, right? Like, Saturday and Sunday are meant to be moments of reprieve. She didn’t ask them to do anything. Again, that’s where we get caught up, right? She didn’t ask you to, you know, go to amusement park, fill your calendar, right? Yeah. No, just remind yourself these. For most people, you know, 90% of people, this is where you had the agency and autonomy to do things. And lo and behold, most people didn’t change their habitual behavior because it wasn’t that prime, right? But they did enjoy the things that they already had, you know, with more vigor because again, they were reminded like, oh, yeah, this is my time. And lo and behold, they showed up Monday to work happier and more productive because they had given themselves that permission to actually engage in renewal during that weekend. So I suggest actually doing the thing because we know creating a tapestry of those, those memories lead to a whole host of cognitive and psychological benefits. But even if that’s too hard, why not just try and go in with a mindset of like, yeah, I shouldn’t be working on a Saturday and Sunday, you know, for all of the reasons, not just because it’s the right thing to do, but also because my work product suffers if I’m working seven days a week. 

Drew McLellan [00:33:54]: 

So I think one of the things that I suspect is happening in the minds of the listeners right now is a lot of agency owners are, you know, in their 40s or 50s. And they grew up at a time where, especially in our industry, like you put in your dues, right. 60 hour weeks was a little like going like being a lawyer, like you knew the. Or a doctor, you knew the first few years of your career were going to just be a grind. 

Mike Rucker [00:34:19]: 

And by the way, I empathize. My very first big entrepreneurial win was starting a marketing agency. We were essentially bottom feed off a shy a day because it was when flash was a big deal and. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I know, you know, yeah, right. Yes. 

Drew McLellan [00:34:34]: 

So, you know, as late nights and pizza in the office. And so now I think the, our employees who typically are a little younger than we are, they have a different attitude about work. And I think a lot of people listening struggle. And when they’re really being honest, what they’re saying is, I put in my dues and these kids are out off their computer or out the door at 5 o’ clock because they have yoga or you know, fill in the blank, whatever it is. I think a lot of our listeners struggle with the idea of giving their employees permission to do what you’re talking about because they didn’t get it. So help us frame that differently in our mind that an employee that has a better life work balance than perhaps we did at their age is actually showing, from what I’m hearing you say, a professional personal maturity that we did not have the option to have. So I’m not, I’m not saying we wouldn’t have wanted it. It just wasn’t the way the world worked back then. So how do we balance the idea that, you know, you know, if you had an agency, you know, we make our money because people spend time doing things for clients. And so, you know, whether you bill by the hour or not, it doesn’t really matter, but it’s how we create value for our clients as time spent on their behalf. So how do we balance this idea of, you know, I’m trying to run a profitable business, I’m trying to be able to take good care of my people. It’s not even about us making the money. It’s. I want, I want to make, be able to make payroll and give people raises and do all the things. And yet I have employees who don’t work Like I used to work. 

Mike Rucker [00:36:18]: 

Yes. There are a couple of things there. So first, this is a hard pill for some folks to swallow. I’m Gen X, I get it. I mean we were raised in meritocracy and we equated time with money. And a lot of the agencies that we cut our teeth on were about billable hours. Right. And so one is just checking your kind of ideology and framework. Right. And is it really this bias that. Wait a second, I have this method where I work 50 hours a week and it actually annoys me if the folks under me, even though they’re doing exactly what I told them to do. 

Drew McLellan [00:36:57]: 

Right. 

Mike Rucker [00:36:58]: 

Falling in that footstep. And so that’s really something that you need to course correct. Right. How do you do that one by indicating what is it that you want them to do. Right. So if you’re not charging by the hour, you know, so you’re not using that type of waterfall traditional TNM model, then ask them, this is what I expect of you of Friday. And if they deliver it in spades, then be okay with that, even if it only takes 20 hours. You know, have them deliver on value and change that paradigm within your environment because great, right. If someone can nail it in 22 hours, why not celebrate that? What are you going to do? Reward them with more work? And you’re wondering why you have a retention issue. I meant then you really need to look in the mirror and understand that you’re the problem, not them. Right. And that’s hard for a lot of Gen Xers, but if you can get past it, all of a sudden you have a lot happier employees. If it is the TNM model, then you just need. That’s a negotiation with those employees, right. If the expectation is they work 40 hours and they don’t want to, then you negotiate with them like, okay, are you only able to give 30 hours this week? And as long as you both agree that’s it, then that problem is solved. Right? They give you the 30 hours, they know what the expectation is and they get paid for that. So if you’re a COIN operated agency, that’s tnm, then you figure out what is an equitable form of time for that employee. If you’re not where you’re actually getting paid on value, figure out what is your expectation and if they meet it, don’t be mad that they were able to crush it in 30 hours and then don’t essentially penalize them for great work by going, well, great, you did that in 30 hours. Now I’m going to give you another 20 hours of nonsense, you know, because you are good at your job. I mean, think how horrible that is. And yet so many of us find ourselves in that trap. Right, right, right. 

Drew McLellan [00:38:54]: 

What about creating fun at work? I mean, one of the reasons why I got into advertising to begin with was, you know, twofold. One, I was trying to avoid having to do a lot of math professionally, which didn’t work out well for me. But two, it’s fun to create, it’s fun to do the work that we do. And yet sometimes I think, especially post Covid, where we’re not physically together, I think a lot of agency owners struggle with how to infuse moments of joy or fun or play in the workday. And we know you’ve said it before. We’ve had other guests on there before. Our brains work better when they are stimulated by joy and fun and playfulness. So how does all of that sort of factor into this? 

Mike Rucker [00:39:41]: 

Yeah, so what we found out that we got wrong, you know, even folks like myself, you know, so it’s by admission is that almost anything that’s prescribed generally backfires. Right. We now call it forced fun. So this idea that. And you know, it goes back to stuff as simple as Stephen Covey. Right. Like, you know, you first need to understand, right. And. But so many of us are like, hey, you know, I like Soundgarden cover band. Like, let’s all go to that on Friday night, you know, and like, you know, and like, wait, I’m enjoying myself. Why aren’t you guys? And so you coming up with these contrived sort of interventions, you know, at the surface level is where a lot of us go wrong, like this assumption. And then oftentimes we’ll actually feel offended that it backfired because it’s, you know, similar to like parents that set up something for their children, but never ask their children whether or not that would be something that they enjoy and then penalize their kids for not having a good time. 

Drew McLellan [00:40:39]: 

Right. 

Mike Rucker [00:40:40]: 

So where it starts is it’s got to start first. There’s some pre work to make sure that you have the psychological safety within your agency to actually enjoy. Right. If it’s not, you need to take a step back. It’s not about fun at that point. It’s like, what’s gone wrong here that everyone hates each other. Right. One of my colleagues, I thought said it in a way better than I can, and that is you have this intervention and escape room because you want folks that don’t like each other to like each Other. And so what do you do? You put them all in a room and they can’t escape. And that’s Right, right. And so you need to start with psychological safety. If you feel like you have that, like for, you know, there’s a general rapport and folks do like each other, then you co create what that experience looks like, right? And the thing is that takes a little bit more work. But once you do that work for all the reasons that should make sense, you actually do start to enjoy yourself, right? Because folks have buy in. It’s actually something they want to do. Even the folks that might not have wanted to do it, if they like their peers, are like, yeah, you know, I’ll do it with you. And the thing is that you generally do enjoy themselves because those folks, even if they’re not doing something they like, right? Because they like the people, see them having fun and then, you know, enjoy themselves. I like John Cleese’s work in this. Like, for anyone that, you know, kind of wants to understand how fun can, can be really helpful in a creative construct. You’re creating these environments where you’re creating creative games where the folks within your agency know that if nothing comes of it, it’s okay, you know, because so many of us are goal oriented, like, well, we’ve got to deliver this for the client, right? And so not having something at the end of a session is kind of a big deal because of the time crunch. So this isn’t a good intervention for that time. But if you’re in an exploratory phase, right, where you have the luxury of time creating these environments almost like a hackathon, but you know, for design, where it’s like, you know, no idea is a bad idea and setting the stage and the rules of engagement that are contextually relevant for, you know, what your agency is trying to get into, those can be amazing, right? Because everyone is now accretive in the way they’re sharing these ideas and the fact that they can go in any different direction, especially for creative people, I mean, you know, those environments are just amazing, right? And what comes out of it, we can’t even guess. That’s the best part, right? That’s the novelty of life. That really lights a lot of us, that light creativity up. 

Drew McLellan [00:43:05]: 

Yeah, yeah. This has been fascinating. I love the fact that we’ve for the last hour basically prescribed that people get a little more serious about not being so serious all the time and having more fun. So Mike, if people want to find the book, want to learn more about Your work. What is the best way for them to do all of that? 

Mike Rucker [00:43:24]: 

Thank you. So the fun habits out now. I think it just got translated into its ninth language, so if you want to pick it up, I’d be grateful. And then all of the stuff that I write for about trade is [email protected] awesome. 

Drew McLellan [00:43:40]: 

Thank you so much for being with us and for reminding us that I think one of the privileges we forget we have as business owners and leaders is we have a lot more control over our life and our time than most people do. And so that we don’t take full advantage of that and that we don’t do the things that make us happy and healthy is sort of a self fulfilling prophecy. And we have the control and the power to change that. And so I think this conversation is a great reminder to everybody that it is well within our grasp to design the life that we want to have. That does have that one to three hours a week or, you know, a couple hours a day of turning everything off and just being in the moment with the people that we care about and doing the things that we love to do that give us joy is our privilege and we should take full advantage of it. So. All right everybody, this wraps up another episode. Check out Mike’s book. And you know what? Here’s your homework. You need to prescribe some fun for yourself. So before you open your email, before you do whatever, open up your calendar and figure out where you can get just one hour this week, just one hour of it could be a date night. It could be taking the kids to the park. It could be walking the dog. It could be whatever fills your cup with joy. It could be reading for pleasure. It could be reading a murder mystery because you don’t do that anymore. All you read are business books. Whatever it is that just fills your heart and lightens up the day and lightens up your mood and gives you some space, gives you some mental space, some emotional space. I think we have to recognize that that’s not optional. That if we want to stay healthy and we want to stay vibrant and we want to be an inspiring leader and we want to be an inspiring leader for our family, that it starts with us being in a really good place and that we have the power to do that. So that’s your homework. One hour of fun for the sometime in the next week. Don’t care what it is, feel free to email me and tell me what it is. I would love to hear what some of you are doing for fun. I promise I will do the same and we’ll check in with each other. All right, before I let you go, want to thank our friends at White Label iq. They are the presenting sponsor of this podcast. So as you know, they came from an agency that was looking for a web team that they could count on when they had a big flurry of websites and they ended up building a business, a sister company that all they do are White Label web work, design, dev and ppc and they serve agencies all over the world today. And so head over to whitelabeliq.com ami. You can learn a little bit more about them and how they work with a my agencies just like you. So all right, thanks for listening. I’ll be back next week. I hope you will too. Go have some fun.