How Stay Interviews Unlock Employee Retention with Sue MacArthur

Drew McLellan [00:00:32]: 

Hey everybody. Drew McLellan here with another episode of Build a Better Agency. And we are going to be talking about people today. You know, the work we do gets more and more complicated, there’s more technology, but I don’t believe there will ever be a more nuanced part of the business that we do rather than dealing with people, whether it’s clients, whether it’s team members, peers, whatever it may be. I just think human beings are the most intricate part of the work we do. And we have an opportunity to always, no matter how long we’ve been doing this work, we can always do it better. So that is really the focus for today. And today we’re going to focus on employees and how we can be a better boss and leader to those employees by looking at a very specific sort of subset of sort of the employee process. And to talk to us about that is Ami’s good friend, Sue MacArthur, one of the owners of Strategic Talent Management. So Strategic Talent Management has been around forever. They’ve been an AMI partner for, gosh, 20 some years at least. I’ve known these folks for a really long time personally. They are a resource that we use on a regular basis when it comes to hiring, when it comes to thinking about how to handle an employee situation, they’re just a really great resource when it comes to all aspects of building a team, attracting the right people for your team, building the team, retaining and growing that team, and really investing in them in all the ways that make your team serve your clients and your agency better long term. You know, it’s pretty hard for us to do our work. I don’t care. You talk about AI all you want, but it’s pretty hard for us to do the work that we do without people. And honestly, it’s also the best part of the work. I, at least for me anyway, I, I love the people aspect of it. I love coworkers, I love interacting with clients. I love that human interaction. I would, I would miss it terribly if that part of the work went away. And so today we’re going to focus on how do we, how do we get Even better at that as leaders. So without further ado, let’s welcome sue to the show and talk a little bit about how we can level up the team that we already have. Sue, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for being back with us. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:03:05]: 

Thanks for having me. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:03:07]: 

So talk a little bit about the work you do at Strategic Talent Management before we get into the specifics of, of what I want to pick your brain about today, just so people have a little bit of the lay of the land. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:03:18]: 

Well, we help agency leaders solve their people challenges so that they can spend more of their time on growing the agency and running the agency rather than stressing about all of those people challenges. So that may be leadership development, hiring, succession, performance management, anything that involves the people in the agency, which can sometimes be the most time consuming and stressful part. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:03:45]: 

Leader, for sure. They are certainly our greatest asset, but they are certainly also one of the biggest challenges of like just how to do it well and right, I think. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:03:55]: 

Right. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:03:56]: 

And you know, and post Covid with the change in how we work and where we work and all of that, I just think it’s gotten even more complicated than it used to be. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:04:04]: 

It absolutely is. And it was always important to be a good manager, a good leader, but now it’s even more important because your people are not in front of you every day. You’re not observing everything that they’re doing. So you really have to know how to communicate and really manage people. It doesn’t happen by accident. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:04:25]: 

No, I think most people, that’s actually how they think. I think they just think if you’re a people person or you’re a good communicator, then you’re naturally a good people manager or leader. And I don’t know that that always translates quite as well as we would like it to. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:04:42]: 

No, it’s certainly something that some people are born with, that natural ability to lead and, and manage others. Most of us have to work at it. And we can’t just say, well, as long as I hire good people, it’ll all take care of itself, right? Not really. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:05:00]: 

Well, and I think even if you’re a good leader, I think the assumption that it just happened air quote, happens naturally is a fallacy that we fall into as opposed to it really should be a system and a process not unlike any of the other aspects of how we run our business. I mean, you wouldn’t think that your financial health in your agency would just happen by happenstance. You have systems and processes to make sure that you’re profitable and that you have money at the end of every month and all of those sort of things. We need to have some of those same thoughtful systems and processes, I believe, around people. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:05:39]: 

Right. I like to use an analogy, and there’s probably going to be some people who hate to hear this, but the New England Patriots and Bill Belichick, he didn’t just pick a great quarterback and put them out on the field and say, okay, make it happen. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:05:53]: 

Right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:05:54]: 

He didn’t just at the end of the season like we sometimes do with the annual review, say, okay, here’s what went right and here’s what went wrong. He’s on top of people every day making little corrections. Everybody knew exactly what was expected of them at every moment. So really that the whole process of performance management is actually a process. Performance management and engagement doesn’t just happen. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:06:21]: 

Yeah. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:06:21]: 

And it’s not just a once a year event. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:06:24]: 

And I think one of the. One of the aspects or one of the sort of focuses of the process that often just doesn’t happen, doesn’t. It’s not on people’s radar screen. They don’t think about it is the stay interview. So we do a great job of screening candidates. Some hopefully we do a great job of screening candidates when we’re trying to fill a role. And, and you know, in the very beginning, when we’re onboarding them, they’re getting a lot of our time and attention. But if somebody has been with us for a year or five years or 10 years, we don’t necessarily, other than sort of that annual performance review, if we do them, we don’t really have the kind of conversations that make that employee feel like we are still invested in them. We care about them, we’re interested in what they want out of their career. And, and we want to be part of helping them accomplish all of that while also talking about what the agency needs from them and what we see as their future. So I want to talk a little bit more because I know you guys at Strategic Talent Management are huge proponents of the stay interview. So just for everybody who’s not familiar with that term, just define what a stay interview is. And then we’re just going to kind of unpack how. How to do it. Well. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:07:42]: 

Right. Well, everybody’s heard of the exit interview, and the stay interview is very similar. In fact, some similar questions. But it’s designed to get to the bottom of what’s going on right now and prevent the exit. It’s asking these questions before the cow has left the barn. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:08:03]: 

Right, right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:08:05]: 

And it’s just Too late. We do things like it’s very common in the interview process for a new hire to ask them, what are your career goals and aspirations? But when was the last time we sat down and asked that same question of somebody who’s been with us and performing well for many years? We don’t. It’s those kinds of questions. Where would you like to go? Do you have the resources you need to succeed? Are there things that go on here that you’ve always wanted to be a part of but have never been given an opportunity to really dig into who they are and what they need and what they want? So it’s more of an engagement and retention tool. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:08:50]: 

Do you think one of the reasons why we don’t do stay interviews is because we don’t want to hear the answers sometimes? 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:08:57]: 

Because part of this is to be brutally honest and to be really open to feedback. And one of those questions is, what’s not working for you? What’s not working at this company? If you could say one thing to the CEO about what needs to change here, what would that be? Those are sometimes the answers to those questions are sometimes really hard to hear. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:09:24]: 

So if I’m asking the CEO question and I am the CEO, am I the one that should be doing the exit interview? 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:09:31]: 

It depends on the size of your organization and the layers. I prefer if it’s the direct supervisor that does the stay interview. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be a formal process where you sit down and ask all of these questions at once. If you’re having regular one on one meetings, rotate these questions in to those meetings, really asking for feedback, just saying to somebody at their review or their one on one, how are things going? Is there anything I need to know is not going to get you the answers that you need. It’s not going to open up those conversations that really need to happen. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:10:10]: 

Because it’s not specific enough. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:10:12]: 

It’s not specific enough. And most employees, when faced with their supervisor, unless we’ve all had a few that will speak up whether we like them to or not. Right, right. But most people will just say, yeah, everything’s fine. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:10:25]: 

Right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:10:25]: 

Or they might, you know, bring up some little thing. But really asking specific questions will help people to open up, especially those more reserved, introverted folks who just everything’s fine until things aren’t fine. And you see the back of them as they’re headed out. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:10:43]: 

That’s right, that’s right, that’s right. What can we do as supervisors? And in some cases, people listening, they’re like I am everybody’s direct supervisor, so I guess I get to do this. These feel like very weighty questions, and I’m sure from the employee’s perspective, answering them at all or answering them air quotes wrong may get them, you know, on a list they don’t want to be on, or may get them sideways with their boss or the agency owner. How do we create a safe place where the employees will actually answer these questions with candor? 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:11:18]: 

Right. Well, one of the things we see people do far too often is when they do ask these questions or they do an employee survey, nothing happens. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:11:31]: 

Right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:11:33]: 

But if people see that when the leadership is given feedback that that’s actually taken seriously and things are done, things change, things move forward, that starts to build a culture of trust. And people are more likely to be open when they really believe and have seen you demonstrate that them taking a risk and giving you some really honest feedback is going to mean something. But if every employee survey, it gets reported out and nothing changes, why take that risk? 

 

Drew McLellan [00:12:11]: 

Yeah, right. You were saying that this doesn’t have to be like a sit down for an hour and a half deep dive thing, that you can kind of pepper these questions into your ongoing conversations with employees. Is there value? Some of these are big questions. We’ll get into some of the questions in a minute. But some of these are big questions that I would think for most employees requires some thought before they answer. And probably you’re more likely to get a real answer if they’ve had time to prepare as opposed to being sort of caught off guard. So do you recommend that we. That we share the questions in advance? Like, here’s some things I want to talk to you about next time we’re together. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:12:55]: 

Absolutely thought. Absolutely. You know, there are some of these that, you know, like what strengths and talents do you have that aren’t being utilized here? Some of these are easy to just drop into a one on one as you go throughout your weeks, but some of them about what are your ultimate career goals? Do you think you can achieve those goals here? Those require a little bit more thought and giving people the list of what you want to talk about and allowing them to prepare ahead of time. Come in with some notes. I know when I get really nervous, I will forget some of the important. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:13:35]: 

Sure. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:13:35]: 

Pieces. So give them time to prepare. Come in with some notes, have some bullet points of what they want to talk about. Because some of these are really big questions, like what is your biggest frustration? 

 

Drew McLellan [00:13:48]: 

Right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:13:49]: 

You know, what, what are we not doing so well and how do you think we might be able to fix it. That’s not something that you’re going to get any meaningful answer to right on the spot. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:14:02]: 

Right. Right. Well, and I think too, I would guess that you sort of have to ease into this a little bit. Right. That, like the very first time you start asking these questions, maybe you don’t want to pick the scariest of all the questions, the big question. Right. You want to kind of ease in with the, you know, what strengths and talents do you have that maybe we’re not aware of or we’re not utilizing the way you think we could. That feels like a softball question compared to, you know, some of the, some of the other questions that you suggest, which, by the way, everybody listening will include this list of questions that sue and I are talking about in the show notes. So you’ll be able to download them and read, read them, review them, cherry pick the ones that make sense for you and your shop or use them verbatim. So just know that that resource will be there to you. But I’m assuming that we should kind of, again, especially if we’re doing this over time, kind of ease in, ease into this. Right, Right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:15:00]: 

And it’s important to explain why you’re doing it. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:15:03]: 

Right. I was just going to say, so if you haven’t done this at all, you probably don’t want to just sneak this in without any sort of preamble to your 10 year tenured employee. Right, Right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:15:14]: 

You know, hey, I know I’ve. All I’ve been asking you is, how are things going for the last, you know, 10 years? Well, now I have some, some bigger questions right now. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:15:23]: 

I want to have a deep conversation. Right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:15:25]: 

Let me dump these on you right now and, oh, not give you any time to think about it. You know, I want on the spot honest answers. That’s not the best way to approach this, especially not if you want to be taken seriously, if you want your employees to take it seriously. And I find in so many situations my clients will ask me, well, what do I, you know, how do I get them to understand this? They need to understand the why. Nine times out of ten, that’s all it takes is to understand the why. For people to get behind a process, a procedure, a program, if they understand why, why it’s important why you do things the way you do it, that’s half the battle. And this is one of those things that if you can help your people understand the why, that I want more meaningful conversations. I want more information about how we’re doing about how you’re doing, whatever your why is for going through this exercise, then you’re already halfway there. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:16:32]: 

And would you recommend, like in an all team meeting that you would introduce the concept of we’re going to start peppering in some stay interview questions or we’re going to start peppering in some questions. I realize that maybe we have not been having the in depth conversations that I need to have to be a better agency owner or a better boss. So you’re going to notice that I’m sort of elevating the level of questions and conversations we’re having. For example, here’s an example or two of the questions. So I don’t want you to be surprised by it. I want you to know that we’re doing this across the entire agency. So I’m not singling anybody out. And there’s not a problem that we’re asking these. We just want to get better at this. Right? 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:17:14]: 

Right. You just wrote the script. Everybody just record this, write it down, and there you go. Drew just gave it to you. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:17:22]: 

Okay, so how do I show up ready to hear? Because I think sometimes we don’t ask these questions, as we said earlier, because we don’t really want to know the answers. Like, for example, if I have a rock star of an employee and I’m like, do you think that you can achieve your career goals here? And I’m an agency of six people and I’m thinking this person’s going to get stuck at a level and, and I have, I don’t have anywhere else for them to go. Like, they can, they can be the VP of fill in the blank, but after that, the only job that’s left is mine. So I am a little afraid to ask this question because I don’t, I don’t want to put in their head that they should go somewhere. These are the things I hear all the time. And I’m sure you do too. I don’t want to put it in their head that maybe they have to leave to achieve their career goals. But that’s backwards thinking, is it not? 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:18:18]: 

It is. It is. And if, if someone truly feels that they cannot reach their career goals in your agency, they’re already thinking about where. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:18:28]: 

They’Re going to figure that out. Right? 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:18:30]: 

They’re going to figure that out. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:18:31]: 

Right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:18:32]: 

Some people will figure it out faster than others. Some people are just more like, go, go. Got to get it done. Others will, will sit and wait it out. But I think in those cases, we need to start thinking less about career ladders. And more about career lattices. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:18:50]: 

Talk more about that. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:18:52]: 

What opportunities can I give this person that stretch them, that allow them to take on ownership and leadership of certain projects or functions will take things off of my plate so that I can concentrate on running and growing the agency, but give them an opportunity to grow, not necessarily in title, but in responsibility and experiences. How can we make it a richer experience even if we can’t give them a new title? And this is something that smaller agencies in particular really struggle with. I was working with a client. They have 20 people on their team, and they had five levels on the account management team. Five levels of titles. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:19:45]: 

Yeah, it’s great. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:19:45]: 

And when I asked why that was, it was because, well, everybody these days wants. Wants a promotion. And that was the only way we could do it. But there really was no substantive difference between one level and another. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:19:59]: 

Right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:20:00]: 

So, yeah, people were feeling great. Yeah, I got a promotion. Well, they weren’t learning anything new. They weren’t doing anything more meaningful to them or for the agency. So that’s when those kinds of conversations are happening. That’s a way that you can address it. Think ahead of time on some of these scarier questions. If I get answers that make me uncomfortable, what can I do about it? What are some possible or likely answers you could get? And how, you know, think ahead of how you can address that. What can I do about it? And be honest, if. If the answer is I don’t know, then that’s what your answer is. Better to say, I don’t know. Let me think about that. Than to make something up and erode trust. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:20:52]: 

So the other thing I think, too, is oftentimes what happens, and I’m sure you see this as well, a lot of times when we don’t have these conversations, employees make assumptions like, there’s nowhere for me to go, I have to leave to become. Because I want a title or I want a new skill set or I want something else. And in the exit interview, a lot of times the agency owner or leader is like, well, you could have had that here. Right? Even though we are only five people or whatever it is, if we had talked about it, we could have figured out a way to create a path for you to have that. So I also think sometimes one of the benefits of the stay interview is that you’re having a conversation that is correcting a misperception in the employee’s head about what is or is impossible at your agency. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:21:45]: 

In the absence of real information, people will usually assume the worst. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:21:49]: 

Right? 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:21:50]: 

Oh, let’s Fill in the blanks. And that’s part of what this process is about, to really have these conversations. And this is very much a two way street. This is not just employee answering your questions. It’s an opportunity for them to ask questions of you. Where do you see the agency going? What opportunities are there here for me that I haven’t tapped into yet? It may be something along the lines of benefits. I mean, sometimes there’s agencies have these big benefits packages. Nobody’s using half of the stuff because they just don’t know it’s there. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:22:28]: 

Right, right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:22:30]: 

So it’s an opportunity for everybody to share some information, get on the same page, know what the expectations are and move forward accordingly. I’ll give you another example of one of our clients. They were making plans to hire a copywriter and we had been working with them on the job descriptions and thinking about the strategy and so forth. And they had started using some of these day interview questions and with their admin assistant had a conversation and said, what are some of the things we do here that you haven’t been able to be a part of yet? Well, it turns out that they had a degree in journalism. They loved to write. They write in their free time. They said, I hear around the office that you might be hiring a copywriter. Would you give me a shot? Yeah, they did a writing sample. Guess who their new copywriter was. But if they hadn’t asked the question, that person, younger, a little more timid would probably not have stepped up and say, hey, I see we’re hiring a copywriter. Would you give me a shot? But because they were asked the question, it opened the door. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:23:45]: 

So you, you made the comment that this is the opportunity for the employee to ask us questions too. So we need to take a break. But when we come, when we come back, I want to probe a little more into that, like how do we, how do we let them know it’s okay for them to ask questions back? How do we encourage them? Do we seed some questions for them to ask us? So let’s take a quick break and then we’ll come back and talk about how do we help them sort of flip the conversation so that they know it’s okay for them to ask us some hard questions too? So we’ll be take a break and we’ll be right back. Are you tired of juggling multiple tools to manage your agency? Meet Deltech Workbook the all in one solution for marketing and communications agencies. Streamline your projects, resources and finances all in one place with real time dashboards and reporting, you’ll have full project visibility. You can plan team capacity weeks ahead to avoid bottlenecks and and keep your budgets on track to maximize profitability. It’s perfect for both agencies and in house marketing teams looking to work more efficiently. PCI is a certified Deltec partner offering expert implementation and support to ensure your success. If you’re ready to transform your operations, visit PCI US Podcast for a free consultation today. Hey everybody. Just want to remind you before we get back to the show that we have a very engaged Facebook group. It’s a private group just for podcast listeners and agency owners that are in the AMI community. And to find it, if you’re not a member, head over to facebook.com groups b a bapodcast. So again, facebook.com groups bab podcast. All you have to do is answer a few questions to make sure that you are an actual agency owner or leader and we will let you right in. And you can join over 1700 other agency owners and leaders. And I’m telling you, there’s probably 10 or 15 conversations that are started every day that are going to be of value to you. So come join us. All right, we are back with Sumac Arthur from stm and we’re talking about Stay interviews. So right before the break I was saying you had made the comment. One of the cool things about stay interviews is it is an opportunity for the employees to ask us questions as well. How do we tee that up? How do we, how do we make sure they know that it’s okay for them to ask hard questions? I’m not sure they would know what questions to ask. So, you know, do we give them suggestions? Do we all of that? Sure. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:26:21]: 

And you know, some of these questions on the Stay interview list are great questions for an employee to be asking you back. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:26:31]: 

Right? 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:26:32]: 

So encourage that. Say there, you know, when you send out the list, these are some of the questions I’m going to start asking you. Say, if you want me to answer these questions, I’m prepared to do that. You know, what are we doing well? What’s not working so well? These are questions that would be great for an employee to be asking the agency leadership. So encourage that two way street. Like if you see something on this list that you’ve always wanted to ask me, I’m prepared to answer if there. I know that I’ve been in positions in the past where I’ve been training people and I’m like, I wish that people would ask me more questions about this. If there’s anything that Comes to your mind, like, I wish people would ask me more often. Xyz. Put those on the list and say, I’m here to answer your questions. Here’s some of the things I’m prepared to talk about. But whatever is on your mind, bring it. And then be really candid. Be as open as you possibly can in answering those questions. Even if that answer is, I don’t know, let me think about it, or I don’t know, let me look into it. The worst thing you can do is. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:27:49]: 

Make stuff up and saying, I don’t know, I need to think about. That’s a great question. I need to think about that some more. As long as you obviously close the loop and come back to them with an answer. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:28:00]: 

Yeah, you gotta follow through. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:28:02]: 

Also gives them permission to say that to you when you ask them a question that they need more time to think about. Like you’re modeling again. It’d be great if they all had the answers right off the bat and they just gave them to you without batting an eye. But, you know, it’s human interaction, so that’s probably not going to happen. But if you model the fact that it’s all right to go, you know what, that’s a really great question, but I don’t know that I have the answer for that yet. Let me think about it and I’ll get back to you. Now, they know that they can say that to you as well. And if you follow up, then they know they have to follow up too. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:28:35]: 

Exactly. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:28:36]: 

Yeah. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:28:37]: 

Being a role model is, I think, an underrated skill in leadership. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:28:43]: 

Right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:28:44]: 

Is we often have expectations of others that we aren’t willing to live up to ourselves. And the best leaders are also amazing role models. They show up every day and they show their people how to behave. They show their people how to communicate, how to interact, how to work hard, all of those things. And this is no different. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:29:07]: 

How to be vulnerable, how to talk about hard things. I mean, all the things that for a lot of the listeners, you probably don’t want to do in front of your employees, but it is the very behavior you want out of them. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:29:21]: 

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, that role model piece is, I think, an undervalued asset in leadership. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:29:30]: 

Yeah. So if I’m going to pepper these into my one on one conversations, how would you suggest that I give the employee a heads up? So I’m looking at your sheet right now and one of the questions is, you know, is there something that we do here that you would like to be a part of? But haven’t been given the chance. If that’s the question I know I’m going to ask and I want them to have some time to think about it. How do I give them that question in advance? Is it just a hey, in our next one on one, I just want to give you a heads up. This is one of the things I want to talk about and just give them the question. How do you recommend we help them be better prepared? 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:30:11]: 

Right. Verbally is fine, but I would always follow that up with something written so that they have the whole question. They don’t have to just remember as they walk by you in the break room, hey, they’re going to be asking me what now? 

 

Drew McLellan [00:30:25]: 

Right. So an email or a Slack message or however we communicate internally. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:30:30]: 

Right. Something that they can refer back to so that they know that they’re answering it. They have the right context, they know that they’re answering the right question and the complete question. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:30:41]: 

I think one of the things that we know but we don’t really want to acknowledge is that our employees all talk about everything. Like they all know what each other makes. They know all the things. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:30:50]: 

Oh yeah. Any company who thinks that they don’t have paid transparency, they might not have it from the top, but they’ve got. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:30:56]: 

It around from the bottom up. Right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:31:00]: 

They all know. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:31:02]: 

So do you recommend like putting out a list and saying, hey, over the course of the year we’re going to be peppering questions like this into your one on ones. And you know what, we’ll let you know which ones we’re going to ask you before we meet. But I just want you to know that this is sort of an ongoing effort for us to have better conversations, have more insight into the employee experience and to create a better experience for you individually. Here’s the kind of things we’re going to be asking. Do you like, should we show them the whole list at some point as we kind of introduce this concept and then throughout the year say, hey, guess what, your, you know, your stay interview question for this next one on one is the, you know, are there any individuals who you feel are particularly helpful to you inside the organization or whatever it may be? Right, right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:31:51]: 

I think certainly the harder questions, you know, some of these are pretty obvious. It’s not a big deal to answer them kind of on the fly. But the bigger, meatier ones that people might want to take some time and really think about and prepare an answer. Definitely. There’s nothing wrong with giving those at the beginning of the year and just say, know that occasionally we’re going to be asking these kinds of questions. That’s also a perfect opportunity to ask them for some feedback about, are there any other questions you’d like us to be asking you? You might be surprised with some of. There might be some really great suggestions of that. And it’s also the opportunity to say, are there some tough questions you’d like to be able to ask of us so that we can be prepared with an answer for you? You may get no response to those requests, but again, it’s another way of opening up the door and saying, we really mean this. We really want this to be a meaningful conversation, not just something that’s off the cuff. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:32:52]: 

Yeah. You know, back when. Back when we were all in office, one of the pieces of feedback I got from our team was that because I was already traveling quite a bit and all that, that they wanted more FaceTime with me, but they wanted it individually. So I created this thing and we were, you know, we’re a small enough company that I could pull it off. That was brilliantly called Dinner with Drew. And so everybody, it’d be like, okay, sue, hey, July is your month for Dinner with Drew. Give me a couple dates at work with you. You pick the restaurant, and then we’ll talk about whatever you want to talk about. And it was not mandatory. You don’t have to do it. You’re not gonna hurt my feelings if you don’t wanna do it. I know some of you have kids or sports or whatever, but it was fascinating because a, the dinner choices were fascinating, but, you know, I had some people who literally came with a list, like, here are 27 things we’re going to talk about today. And she literally would be like, okay, number one, you know, yada, yada, yada. Number two, like, we just worked through the list, like. And the other one was like, you know, I. I just want to talk about baseball and being. And blah, blah, blah. So I was like, okay. But it was fascinating to me. And I think this is true for most agency owners. We underestimate the value of our time and our attention to our team members. And you don’t have to take them out for dinner, you don’t have to take them out for drinks. You don’t have to do donuts, whatever. Whatever the letter, the alliteration is for your first name. You don’t have to do any of that. Even just doing this in the one on one meetings or having conversations. But they are, I think, in general, hungry to have more meaningful conversations on a more Regular basis with their leadership team, whoever that may be. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:34:36]: 

Right. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:34:36]: 

Do you find that is true? 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:34:38]: 

Absolutely. And too, too often we get in the, you know, we’re busy, we’re like, okay, I’ve got to have a one on one check. You know, we go through the motions and we don’t make that a meaningful experience for our employee or even more importantly, for ourselves and the agency. Because I can tell you, throughout my career, some of the greatest lessons I learned came from the people who were working for me. You know, the greatest ideas, the greatest light bulb moments, good and bad. Sometimes it was the stuff I don’t want to hear. That light bulb moment, like, oh my God, I can’t believe I did that. I didn’t realize the unintended consequences of that. Those moments you missed out on. If you’re just going through the motions or your one on ones and you’re not setting the stage for having more meaningful conversations. And the stay interview questions are just a tool to do that. But it’s really, it’s gotta be a deeper philosophy, not just a list of questions that you’re checking off. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:35:46]: 

Well, and I think today with the way we work, like I used to love, even early early in my career, I used to love being in the car. Just like I used to love being in the car with my kids. I used to love being in the car with, in the beginning, my boss. Right. Because it felt like a safe place to have conversations. And I loved it when I was the boss to have car time with team members because somehow you just have, like, they’re just. We just don’t have that sort of forced, unstructured downtime to have meaningful conversations. And so I feel like today we almost have to create those opportunities more than we used to. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:36:26]: 

Right. You know, we’re not running into people in the break room while we’re having our lunch and having a chit chat there where we’re on zoom. We’re like, everybody good? Okay, bye. And you click the and meeting button. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:36:39]: 

Right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:36:39]: 

And all of that other stuff where you’re, you’re just in the same space and, and kind of forced to, to have conversations that’s gone. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:36:51]: 

Yeah. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:36:51]: 

So we, we need to create those moments. And it’s, it’s hard sometimes, especially because we’re so busy and, you know, to slow down and have a conversation, you know, maybe be in the back of your head, is like, I got 50 other things I should be doing with this time. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:37:06]: 

Yeah. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:37:07]: 

But that time can make the difference in whether you keep that employee and keep Them engaged and productive or they slip into mediocrity or walk out the door. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:37:20]: 

Yeah, right. So as we think about sort of wrapping our head around this, is there a time of year? Is there, let me back up. Are there questions we shouldn’t ask? I mean, other than, like, legally you’re not allowed to ask certain things. Yeah, right, right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:37:41]: 

You know, you know, barring that, I don’t know that there. I have never come across a question that, you know, as long as it was appropriate, you know, in terms of legality and, you know, sensitivity, I’ve not come across a question that should just, is categorically no, don’t ask this question. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:38:04]: 

Yeah. Don’t go there. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:38:06]: 

But you need to make it okay. If it’s a question that the person you’re asking is uncomfortable with, it needs to be okay for them not to answer. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:38:17]: 

So particularly with perhaps employees who are more introverted or is just more uncomfortable with sort of the layers of command or whatever, it may be that they are just less likely to be candid. How do you make it okay for them not to answer, but also make that not the default response? Like, you know, I, I, I’m just going to check out of all of this. Thank you very much. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:38:43]: 

Yeah, well, I don’t, yes, we don’t want to fall into that. I, you know, I plead the fifth. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:38:49]: 

Right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:38:50]: 

On everything. But, but there are other ways that they can answer. Some people are not great, like sitting across the room from you and looking at you. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:38:59]: 

Right. Like it’s the car delivering uncomfortable answers. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:39:04]: 

Make it okay for them to send it in an email. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:39:07]: 

Yeah. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:39:07]: 

Make it okay for them to send it in a letter, however they want to communicate. You just want to hear from them. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:39:15]: 

Right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:39:16]: 

But understand that, you know, the questions that we’ve got on the sheet are, none of them are things that should get into real uncomfortable territory where somebody wants to just say, hey, I’m not going to answer that. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:39:27]: 

Right, right, right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:39:28]: 

But if you come up with other questions that could be a little more sensitive, you need to be sensitive to the fact that they may not want to answer. It may be a little too personal for them or it may just be a time in their life or their career where they’re, you know, that’s, that’s a trigger, whatever the case may be, it’s got to be okay for them to say, you know what? I really don’t want to answer that right now. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:39:53]: 

Yeah. And again, you’re not going to start with like the super probing, hard, personal. Most people would never want to answer that question for their boss. You’re going to start with the, you know, what skills would you like to develop that we haven’t given you the chance? Like, I mean, you’re going to ease into this, right? 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:40:10]: 

Yeah. What’s your favorite part of what you do here? 

 

Drew McLellan [00:40:13]: 

Right, right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:40:15]: 

And I would say if you pepper these questions in, don’t ask all the hard ones at the same time. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:40:22]: 

Of course. Yeah. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:40:23]: 

You know, ask a couple that are kind of warm up questions like the ones we just mentioned and then say, okay, who or what is your biggest frustration here? You know, tell me why, Tell me, you know, what I, what I could or should be doing to help. Hopefully the answer is not, hey boss, you are. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:40:45]: 

Because you’re probably not going anywhere. Right, Right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:40:48]: 

But you know, if, if that’s the true answer, then you, then you really hope you’ve set the stage for people to trust you and that, that you set the stage for you to be open to hearing that. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:40:59]: 

Yeah. So if I’ve been doing this for a while and maybe there are some recurring themes that I’m hearing from people, is it okay? Because these are obviously private one to one conversations, is it okay for me in an all team meeting to say I’m just gonna make something up? But hey, one of the things that I’ve been hearing in some of the one on one conversations are that people are frustrated by X, Y or Z or whatever. Is, is it all right to take that confidential conversation and sort of neutralize it in a way that we could all talk about it without me saying, well, you know, sue said this to me and then Mary said that and Babette said that. But is it okay to kind of pull it out and have a bigger conversation with everyone if there are some problems or challenges or opportunities that seem to be commonplace? 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:41:58]: 

Right. And I would say when you set the stage for this whole process, when you say this is what we’re doing and this is why we’re doing it, Part of that conversation is these are private conversations I will never share with anyone. You know, so and so said this, but if I start to see a theme and I see the things that we need to take action on, I would like to be able to bring that to the team as here’s a theme and here’s we’ve got to do something about this and ask for feedback. Okay, we’ve identified this problem. I want to talk about this here in the team meeting and get some ideas of how we can address this and make people part of the solution. Not Just part of bringing to light the problem. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:42:43]: 

What’s the best part of doing the stay interviews? If. If I’m going to commit to doing this, if I’m going to be vulnerable, if I’m going to open myself up to answering questions that maybe I don’t want to answer, I don’t know the answers to, if I’m going to take the time to your point, because in theory, all of this sounds great, but you’re right, everyone’s like, God, I have so much to do. And now I gotta have these deep, meaningful conversations with like, I get that people are like, in theory, this sounds great, in practicality, not. But if I’m willing to do all of that, I mean, if I’m willing to make the investment, what’s in it for me? When you have organizations, when you work with agencies that do this, well, what’s different a year or two after they start this? 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:43:26]: 

What it creates is a culture where people are more willing to speak up without being asked because they know that when they speak, they’re being heard and things are going to happen. So it’s not as scary, it’s not as risky. It just becomes an everyday part of the culture is if I’ve got something on my mind, good or bad, it’s okay for me to speak up. It’s okay for me to take this all the way to the top if that’s what needs to happen. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:43:57]: 

What’s the bad thing that happens when I do this? 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:44:00]: 

The bad thing that happens is you might get a little information overload, right? And people are coming to you all the time with what may to you seem like trivial things. But what’s worse, to have great stuff hidden and to be losing people because they don’t see any progress here, any opportunity with you, or to be a little overwhelmed with a little too much feedback? 

 

Drew McLellan [00:44:31]: 

All right, so last question and then I’ll let you go. But so somebody comes into their one on one and I ask them one of these questions and the answer they give me, and I’m going to say this not in a politically correct way, they’re just being big baby whiners. So how do I as a boss properly, like, when they’re complaining about something that is like, it’s a job, and there are some things about our jobs that none of us like and like. But if they’re just being a big baby whiner, I want them to feel heard. I want them to feel like it’s a safe place. But sometimes things that they say make me go, you’ve got to be kidding me. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:45:09]: 

Gotta be kidding me, right? 

 

Drew McLellan [00:45:11]: 

How. How do I respond to that? Respectfully, professionally, in a way that doesn’t shut them down, but also acknowledges that, you know, all things being equal, this may not be, you know, the sword to fall on. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:45:27]: 

Right. Well, I think once you’ve acknowledged that you’ve heard them and maybe repeat back just to make sure you understand. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:45:34]: 

And by the way, you shouldn’t say, you’ve got to be kidding me. This is not what you just said. Right. Like, not that. Right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:45:40]: 

That’s not the way to handle it, Drew. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:45:42]: 

Okay? 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:45:44]: 

You turn it around and say, okay, I hear you. You’re concerned about xyz. What do you suggest I or we do about this? And you can’t let people get in the habit of identifying problems that they have no investment in solving. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:46:08]: 

Yeah. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:46:09]: 

And if they’re, if they can’t come up with something, can’t work with you to come up with something, then it’s not a problem to be solved. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:46:18]: 

So what if the solution they come up with is absurd? 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:46:22]: 

Well, then again, we go back to the. Explain the why. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:46:25]: 

Yeah, okay. I just know somebody listening is like, I have a bunch of fill in the blanks working for me, whatever the age group or category or whatever it is who are going to say that, you know, they feel put upon because they can’t get a full hour of yoga in every day, in the middle of the day or whatever the problem is. So I know people are like, yes, I want to hear all of this, but I only want to hear the parts that I want to hear and not the parts that feel to me to be trivial or silly. And so I just want people to be thinking about. You don’t get to control and contain the information that comes back to you. If you do this, you have to be willing to hear great feedback, challenging feedback, and sometimes absurd feedback. And you have to be prepared to deal with all of it. Right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:47:16]: 

And it may be exactly what you said. I mean, say somebody may be put out because they don’t get their hour for yoga or whatever other self care. Well, you know, that becomes a conversation about we’re here to work and here’s why and how can we work together? Is there a way we can shift your schedule one day a week, if that’s possible, in your organization to allow you to take that yoga class. You stay an hour later on that day. Are there solutions? If there are no solutions, particularly if the person coming to you with the problem has no solutions, then you can’t be in the business of solving everyone else’s problems for them. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:47:58]: 

Right. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:47:58]: 

You can control what you control or influence what you can influence. But at the end of the day, there are some things that you. There are problems you can’t solve for people and there are things that in the grand scheme of things, aren’t significant enough to warrant a huge investment of your time. Sometimes just being heard is what they want. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:48:24]: 

Yeah, yeah. That’s such great advice. I mean, I think if you’re an agency owner or leader, you’re so used to solving problems all day long that it’s like, you know, it’s a bit like Pavlov’s dog. When someone gives you a problem, you immediately go into solve it mode. Like, it’s just what we do. Right. And. And it’s a great reminder that just because someone lays a challenge at your feet doesn’t mean you are responsible for solving that problem. You might, you might be able to help them solve it or you might decide it’s not something, it just is the reality of working at your shop. And that’s the conversation that you have to have. So that’s a great reminder to kind of wrap this up on, is that you’re not doing this so you can solve all of the ills and challenges of every employee. You’re doing it so that you have better insight, so they feel more comfortable sharing with you the information you actually do need to have. And to create a culture where people feel like it’s safe to ask hard questions, which ultimately leads to employees who are more likely to stick around, more likely to give 110%, more likely to have your back because they feel like you have their back too. And that’s. That is worth the effort of all of this, for sure. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:49:38]: 

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:49:40]: 

So this has been a great conversation if folks want to learn more about what STM does for agencies just like theirs. Because you work with agencies all over the globe. We’ve been. You’ve been an AMI partner for, gosh, 20 some years. More than that even. Yeah. I don’t think Art or I had gray hair back when we met the first time, so it’s been a while. Yeah, but how can people learn more about STM and the work that you guys do alongside agencies to help them really get great performance out of the right people and keep the right people for a long time? 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:50:14]: 

Right. Well, they’re welcome to reach out to me directly. My email is sutrategictalentmgmt.com or they can go to the website. We’ve got a bunch of free resources on there. They can reach out to one of us for more information. Help yourself to all the resources that are on there. There’s podcast episodes with helpful tools and tips and blogs and and all kinds of things that will help you do it yourself. But if you want us to be alongside helping you out, then absolutely, reach out to me and we’ll see what you need. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:50:51]: 

Yeah, beautiful. I know you’ve been a great partner to hundreds and hundreds of AMI agencies. So we are grateful to have you on the team and also to have you on the show today. So thanks for coming back. 

 

Sue MacArthur [00:51:04]: 

Thank you, Jira. Been very happy to be here again. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:51:08]: 

All right, kids, this wraps up this episode. So here’s my challenge for you is I want you to think of to go to the show notes and download the stay interview questions that STM provides. But I want you to think before you look at the list. I want you to think of three to five things that if you could feed truth serum to every employee and ask them a question, what would you ask them? Like, they don’t have to see your expression, they don’t have to know what you think of their answer. Like just what would you want to know? And then download the list, compare it to that, and then create your own list. So again, you’re probably going to take a lot of the suggestions that is on the sheet because they’re great suggestions. But I also think this should be personal to you and to your agency and what you want to know. And so I want you to pepper in your own questions as well and then put a date on the calendar. Figure out when your next alt team meeting is, whatever that is, cue your leadership team in. If you’ve got a leadership team that you’re going to start doing this, you’re going to be asking them to do it in their one on ones and then bring everybody together and be really clear. I think often because we’re pressed for time because we’ve got a lot of big agenda for our alt team meeting. We give them a lot of the what’s, but we don’t often slow down and give them the whys. And what sue said to you loud and clear was if you want them to really embrace this idea and you want them to come prepared and thoughtful and be willing to answer these questions and have these conversations with you, they are going to want to know why you’re asking. Because in the absence of your why, they’re going to figure it’s because you’re trying to fire them or get them in trouble or somebody’s talking behind their back or whatever, whatever myth they’re going to create. So you got to be really clear about why you’re doing this. And then I think you need to make sure this is not something you do twice and then stop doing. Because not you, but all the other agency owners listening, not you, but everybody else starts a bunch of stuff they don’t finish. And so you need to figure out how are you going to pepper these in for the full year. And then I like the idea of like once a quarter saying, boy, we learned some really interesting things in the one on ones lately. And a lot of you are worried about having enough resources for professional development. So I want to remind you that in the employee handbook, you all have up to $2,000 a year to spend on classes or workshops or webinars or books or whatever, whatever your thing is, however you like to learn. Because I suspect a lot of times the answers already exist in your agency. They just haven’t been talked about for a while. And so again, come up with your own questions, download STM’s questions, and kind of mix and match all those questions together, get your leadership team on board, get it on the next agenda for your all team meeting, and then start to have these conversations and be willing not to be awesome at it in the beginning. I think that’s the other thing. We, we think that we’re great communicators, and for the most part we probably are. But all of us have sort of blind spots and all of us are in varying degrees comfortable about talking about different things. You know, you might not be comfortable when somebody gets emotional. You might not be comfortable when somebody’s angry. You might not be comfortable when somebody’s more confrontational. Whatever your sort of foible is, this is also an opportunity for you to get better, to be a better listener, to ask better questions, to be a better responder. When somebody shares something with you that’s really meaningful to them. And so it’s not just about them. This is also about you practicing and getting better at being a great boss and leader and agency owner. So that’s the homework, right? Let’s put this into practice. Let’s not be the industry that doesn’t do this. Many, many of you have said to Danielle and I, we have one of the best teams we’ve ever had. I, I cannot tell you how many times I’ve heard that in the last six months, well, guess what? If you would like them to stay, this is the kind of thing you do to demonstrate to them that they’re valuable to you and that you really do want to invest in them. So don’t just listen to this and toss it aside as it was an interesting thought. Put it into action. All right. Okay. Before I let you go, you know, I want to say thank you to our friends at White Label IQ as the presenting sponsor of this podcast, and they’ve been the presenting sponsor for, gosh, five or six years. I think they make it possible for me to keep bringing experts like sue to you week after week after week and help you get even better at your craft and the work you do in running the agency profitably and in a way that makes you proud and creates a legacy for you and your team. So, huge thanks to our friends at White Label IQ. Check them [email protected] so if you’re not familiar with them, they do white label design, dev and PPC for agencies that look just like you. So check them out, have a conversation with them. They work with agencies all over the world and they would be happy to be your partner, and we are grateful for them. If nothing else, go to their website and send them a little note that says, hey, really, I’m grateful that you sponsor the Build a Better Agency podcast because I listen to it every week or once a month or every so often when I have nothing better to do. Whatever. Whatever your shtick is, but let them know that you appreciate it because I want them to know how grateful we are. So that would be awesome if you would do that. And last, but certainly not least, I am grateful I get to hang out with you every week. I know that we get to, you know, I know how busy you all are so that I get an hour of your time, even though I know you’re all speeding me up to at least 1.2, if not 1.5. Probably sound like a chipmunk to some of you. I don’t care that you’re. That you’re absorbing the information that you’re learning from it that is valuable for you. And that we get to hang out together every week is a privilege for me, and I am grateful for it. So thank you for listening. I will be back next week with another great guest like Sue. I hope you’ll be back, too. All right, I’ll see you then. 

 

Drew McLellan [00:57:19]: 

That’s a wrap for this week’s episode of Build a Better agency. This visit agencymanagementinstitute.com to check out our workshops, coaching and consulting packages, and all the other ways we serve agencies just like yours. Thanks for listening.