The Power of Thoughtful Client Engagement with Jamie Shibley

Drew McLellan: 

Hey everybody, Drew McLellan here with another episode of Build a Better Agency. Welcome back. If you’re a regular and welcome if this is your first or one of the first podcasts that you’ve listened to in our series, super happy to be with you. We’ve been doing this for a while. We’re push, we just pushed past episode 500 in May and so we are now headed to a thousand. That’s the next goal. So it’s going to take a couple of years to get there, but we’re looking forward to it. So today’s topic is sort of near and dear to my heart. It is the idea of how we show up for our clients and our prospects, and how we show up in a way that really communicates that we are invested in them, that we care about them, and that we are committed to being a really worthy and helpful partner in whatever that looks like. And so it’s all about relationship building. It’s about trust. But for me it’s deeper than that. It is about intention and it is about the goal that you have of how you want to show up for those folks and with those folks and in relationship with those folks. And so our guest today has done some research around that, has written a book and has an entire agency built around this idea of how do we show up in a way that is meaningful to the audiences that matter to us. So without further ado, let me introduce Jamie to you and let’s get going. Jamie, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being with us. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Thanks for inviting me. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

So tell everybody who might not be familiar with you, tell everybody a little bit about sort of your journey and how you came to start the agency and the specifics of the shop that you run. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Yeah, so I started the expressway about nine years ago now. It’s been a while. I spent about 20 years in corporate IT same company actually. And toward the end I was managing E commerce. I was managing sort of our outsourced third party fulfillment and it was time for something different. And so I thought, well, doing enough E commerce, almost like running your own Business, the multiple hats you wear. And I decided it was time to try my own thing. And there’s a bit of a story, but the, the brand I launched when I left that business was much different than it was looks like today. But you know how these things evolve. And what I found is that business owners, they were consistently showing up and asking, hey, I love what you’re selling. We were selling handmade cards that was very consumer facing and like, you know, could you do this for me? And we found this whole space of helping business owners stay consistent in nurturing their relationships. So today we are a strategic engagement agency. We offer the ability for businesses to outsource maintaining those relationships on a consistent basis. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Let’s talk a little bit about that. What about the relationship side of agencies appealed to you? What sort of led you in that path? 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Well, I had witnessed this back managing E Commerce. I don’t know, I suppose it was about 12 years ago. I was starting to see signs of relationships were really changing or the way businesses interact with their customers and even their partners was changing. We had an incident where the consumer brand I was managing, suddenly there were hundreds of shipments that didn’t go out. And the only reason we knew this is because all of the customers started complaining online. And when we brought it up with the fulfillment center, they’re like, oh yeah, they just didn’t go out that day. And they didn’t really have a reason. They were like, well that happens sometimes. Well, you can’t just do that. Right? That’s the brand’s reputation. And the more we pressed them on was like they didn’t feel like they had to do anything about it to make it right. And I just remember how eye opening that was and it wasn’t a limited experience. It was happening more and more where it was like they didn’t feel like they owed the customer. It was just a number. Well, the percentages were still there. Everybody, you know. Yeah, sometimes you get that it happens. And I remember just how eye opening it was because it actually didn’t take much to reverse the negative sentiment with those customers. We actually hand wrote some messages and sent some surprise love to some of them. And the blow up by the surprise and delight alone that the brand would go out of their way to make this right went far. But it’s like, look at the way these people were feeling treated by a company. They were just a number. And so that type of treatment and I don’t know, inability to relate on a human level has really grown since COVID And the more Remote we become. I think we’re losing our ability to relate like we used to. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. And, you know, when you think about it, at the end of the day, and I don’t care what kind of a customer or client somebody is, what they want more than anything else is they want to feel like they matter. Like you care about their business. Like they’re seen. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Right. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. They want the thing, whatever the thing is, they’re buying, but they can buy that from. I mean, the way we differentiate. Right. Is not the thing we sell. The way we differentiate is the way we make someone feel about how we feel about them. Right. And so I think a lot of us have experienced Covid, post Covid, even pre Covid, this idea that even though we have all this technology that allows us to stay in contact, I think people are feeling more isolated or feeling lonelier or feeling less seen than ever before. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

100% agree. When you think about what technology has done, it’s enabled us communicate with the masses. Think about how many of us are so proud of how many people follow us or we’re connected to. Right. But where’s the depth in that? 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

And then you think about your interactions with customer service these days. Our young people just don’t know how to carry on a conversation anymore. What’s that going to do for us when we’re hiring down the road and our account managers or. Right. Like, can they really relate to the customers anymore? Can they carry on a normal conversation? And then think about, like you said, the isolation. Those numbers are growing like crazy. The Surgeon General released last year about it’s an epidemic of loneliness. We feel so isolated. And then you look at the flip side of what that leads to as well. Is this distrust and is it Edelman that does the Trust Barometer? And what they’re saying is that we are now starting our interactions from a place of distrust. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Right? That’s right. Worse than ever before. The 2025 Edelman. For those of you that aren’t familiar, the Edelman Trust Barometer is the study we’re talking about, which has been around for 30 years. And if you’re a regular podcast listener, you’ve heard me talk about it before. But the 2025 said trust is at such risk right now. And so, yeah, you’re right. We’re starting at a deficit. People are already sort of naturally suspicious things are not going to go well and that we don’t really give a crap. Right. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Right. And I’ve been saying for a while, I feel like this whole concept, remember the Know like. And trust. People need to know. Okay. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

I feel like it’s broken or it needs to change from the fact that the no us has gotten easier. We talked about the math. We have these collections. But to move into trust, obviously the like and trust, that’s where it takes a lot more focus than it ever has. But at the same time, I think what people aren’t realizing is it takes so little to win that if you are intentional about it, we could be standing out so far above so many other people, other businesses if we just took the time to show people we care and we see them. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. It’s so interesting. I mean, the effort overall is so low that making a little consistent effort feels like a big deal. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Yeah. Right. To the recipient. So I think the missing piece is. Is care. Before you’re going to get to trust, we as business leaders need to show someone we care and that we see them, we understand them. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

What’s interesting, I’ve never thought about this before, but the know like. And trust is all about how you see me. Like. Right. So you have to know me, you have to like me and then eventually you trust me. But what’s not there is the reciprocal. Which is. Which is an interesting thought. So you have to know me. Yeah. You have to know enough about me that you like me. And then now I probably have to do something here. Right. Like I have to demonstrate that I know and. And like you or I know and care about you. Right. Before there’s trust. Then I’m asking you. So let’s think about it from an AMI perspective. Right. So I. Or an agency perspective. So I’m out there. I’m a thought leader. I’m putting out content. An agency that has niched out. Right. And then. And so you. Now you know who I am. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Yep. Following. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

You’re liking the content. Right. It’s helpful. It’s not salesy. It’s all of that. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Right. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

But to get to trust, there’s still. There’s still a pretty good chasm. And to your point, now it’s my turn now. Because if you know and like me, I probably know you’re out there. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

I should. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

I mean, I may not have your email yet. I mean, but I know you’re. I know you’re out there. You know, it’s like podcast listeners or people who read your book or whatever. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Sure. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

You know, they’re out there. But now I have to demonstrate that I actually care about you and see you. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

And then that’s that sort of the missing. That’s a really interesting thought. That’s sort of the missing link of. Now you’re like, oh, now I can sort of. Yep, I know who they are. Yes. I like who they are. Like their content. I like how they talk about things. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Oh, they’re actually talking to me, and I feel like they actually care about me. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Now I’m going to. I’m going to do that first purchase or trial, whatever it is, go to a Q and A or, you know, go wherever, because I feel like I can trust them. That’s a really interesting idea. Yeah. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

So it’s. It’s rooted in. And this is why it’s so fun. It’s so simple when you really start to think about it. Rooted in social psychology. So the basics, the science behind relationships, say that in order for us to be in a relationship, you, as the person I’m trying to be in the relationship with, need to know or feel that I understand you. And I somehow need to validate what’s important to you, what are your challenges, your aspirations and that I care about. And the minute I start to feel that from you now, all right, we’ve got some kind of relationship forming here, and then again, that’s where the trust is forming. So it takes. Like you said, it takes so little. Yeah, but we just. But we don’t have the time anymore for some reason. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Right. That’s so interesting. And, you know, I think part of it is, I think for a lot of agencies, they want to appear competent and qualified and whatever, so their thought leadership is appropriately kind of arm’s length. Like, I’m teaching you things, I’m giving you helpful things, but just layering it a little bit of compassion and care. And I understand your challenges and all of that. If they could just weave some of that in, it begins to sort of lean into that social science that you’re talking about, which is, I want to be seen. You know, it’s. It’s funny the way we sort of show up at ami. I think people either are really drawn to or not. And so, you know, you’ve been a part of the community for a long time. So, you know, you know, our core value is we lead with love. And so, you know, we’re the huggers and we’re, you know, whatever. And I’m sure for some people, they’re like, what? No, you know, this is a professional thing. I don’t. I don’t. You know, And. And yet to others, and we’ve heard this for others people feel like we actually care before they Ever meet us, they feel like we actually care. Right. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

And so to your point, you’ve got to figure out some way to communicate that in the. Before the first transaction, if you want a transaction. So that’s on one side. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Right. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Talk a little bit about. Because I know a lot of your work with your clients is with their clients, not just their prospects. So talk. How is it different? Or is it different if I’m already in relationship with somebody? Somebody’s already my customer. Client. What’s the science say there? 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Yeah, Well, I mean, the same thing. It’s a relationship. Right. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

And. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

And I think you. So you’re teaching the. One of my favorite classes that I’ve attended multiple times was the Sell with. Based on the Sell With Authority book. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yep. Yeah. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Right. And so you. You taught into some of this, but the same applies for our clients. And you’re now teaching that class. Right. So we spend all this time working to get these clients, and then we. They’re there. And some. Sometimes we forget. Okay. The relationship doesn’t stop. We have to continue nurturing them. They’ve got other options, and the other. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Options are knocking on their door every day. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Right, right, right. And so what we teach is that you can. You can almost create the same type of strategic approach to nurturing these clients. You just don’t necessarily have to do it as frequent as. Like you were teaching in the other course with prospects that it’s like every six to eight weeks. You should be nurturing well with your clients. What if it’s just a couple times a year and the same thing. You have to stay on top of it enough to show them, I still see you. I know what you’re working toward. And in this case, they’re closer to you. So you should know more about them. You should know what they’re working towards. So it shouldn’t take much for you to acknowledge. Wow. I know you’re working hard to get to, you know, whatever it may be, launching that big campaign, and we’re so close. And you know what? If you’re just dropping them a little bit of love about. Wait till we reach that goal, what is that going to feel like? We are showing them. I see you, I see what this is taking and what you’re investing in, what we’re working toward. And that makes me feel, you know, if I’m the recipient of that. Oh, my God, yes. They get it. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

And I want others to feel that love from you. So I’m going to tell others about that. Right. So now I get a Bit of that ambassador, that advocacy, the referrals. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah, yeah. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

We kind of teach same thing, like once a quarter, couple times a year. Show them that you see them and what, you know, what they care about, what’s important to them. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. You know, in the agency edge research that we do every year, one of the years, and I can’t remember what year it was, but we talk to clients about sort of why, when, and how they fired their agency and switched agencies. And one of the big thing. One of the big triggers for clients of when they feel like it’s time to move on is this. Right. So when I talk about this, the equivalent is, you know, when. When you’re courting someone, you’re bringing them flowers and you’re calling and you’re sending little cards and what clients say is, man, they were bringing me flowers and chocolates and. And they were. They were really. They were. It was a full court press. Courting. But now that they’ve won me, I don’t get flowers anymore. I don’t get flowers on our anniversary. I don’t. I don’t get flowers on a random Tuesday. Like, there’s no, like, hey, I just love you enough that I was thinking about you and saw this thing and wanted to, you know, do it. So to. To your point, you know, our clients, in some ways, if you’re good at the wooing on the front end, on the prospect end, it becomes even more important that you continue to. To really woo or court your clients because they feel the change. Right. And then they’re like. Then I would guess they’re like, well, were you just doing that to. To get me? Right. And now that you’ve got me now, I don’t get the flowers anymore. Right. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

So. So one of the best lines, I was interviewing some agency owners about this, and one of them said that I think someone told them this. It feels like you stopped showering. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Right, right, right, right. Yeah. We were just. We were just having this conversation about, like, after you’ve been married for a while, do you still, like, care about how you, you know, do you wear makeup when you’re at home, or do you walk around in sweatpants and, like, you know, just sort of that, like, do you still try and look nice for each other? Same thing, Right? That’s a great analogy. Like, you totally stop showering. You just show up in your. In your sweatpants and hoodie and, you know, your hair’s a muck. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

But. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

But when you think about it, I mean, I think all of us are a little Insecure. We want to be loved. So when somebody doesn’t show up in a way that says we’re still special to them, I’m sure that triggers something in all of us that makes us doubt or have. Or the trust starts to erode. Because now you’re not showing up in the same way. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Well, and then think about how little it would take from. From your competitor. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Right, right. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

To. To woo them and get them. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

They’re in full court press. Right. Because they’re in the wooing phase. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Right? 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Right. And if I just. I’m missing that now. Let’s flip this and say you are doing it well, because we also did some research this year with audience audit around relationship and strategic engagement. And what we found is that clients, they say that 69% say receiving a gift makes them more likely to continue working with the vendor. So they’ll say 69%. 70% say it would make them more likely to recommend that vendor. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Wow. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Now we say receiving a gift. But what I want to make clear is that gift isn’t just a nicely wrapped present in our world. There’s a bigger picture here. Gift means, if you look up the definition, it simply means to give something. And so our definition of giving is you’re giving them something that shows them you see them. So back to that whole that could be your smarts. It could be you went out of your way to give them an article you knew that would be of interest to them. But look at the difference that makes. 70% say they’d refer you to others. That’s your benefit of doing it. Taking the time to be intentional about it. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. You know, it’s funny. After the summit, we give the. When the speakers show up, they get a gift in their room and all of that like the normal conference stuff. But after the summit, we write a handwritten thank you note. I was raised on the importance of. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

A handwritten thank you notes. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

And. And we stick a $25 Dairy Queen gift card in there and just say, hey, we know we took you away from your family or your friends, and there’s nothing better than, you know, ice cream in the summer. So go have ice cream. I swear to God. Like, we. We buy lovely gifts for them that go in their room, Right? And sometimes they say thank you, sometimes they don’t. But everybody comments on the stupid Dairy Queen gift card. So again, it’s not about how expensive or whatever. It’s just sort of the fact that it feels personal and it feels like we’re acknowledging like, we know you had to make a sacrifice to be with us that week. And so, you know, to help you reconnect with the people that matter to you. And it’s a fascinating sort of social science, for sure. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Well, and I could. So if I can, we have this, we call them six strategic storylines. And so it’s these stories that you can use that make for very impactful giving. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Right. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

And I think what is happening there is one of the storylines is called a shared experience. And what you’re tapping into is we all have memories of sharing ice cream with family in the summer. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah, right. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

And so you’re tapping into that positive childhood experience or even as adults. Right. And so it’s bringing out that, okay, we need to connect on this. And so that’s one of the things that makes gifts resonate with people, a shared experience. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

So we need to take a break, but when we come back, let’s come back and talk about those strategic storylines and sort of, if people have been listening and they’re like, okay, I got to do better at this, let’s focus on what, how they can think differently to do. So let’s take a quick break and then we’ll come back with Jamie. Are you tired of juggling multiple tools to manage your agency? Meet Dell Tech Workbook the all in one solution for marketing and communications agencies. Streamline your projects, resources and finances all in one place. With real time dashboards and reporting, you’ll have full project visibility. You can plan team capacity weeks ahead to avoid bottlenecks and keep your budgets on track to maximize profitability. It’s perfect for both agencies and in house marketing teams looking to work more efficiently. PCI is a certified Deltec partner offering expert implementation and support to ensure your success. If you’re ready to transform your operations, visit PCI Us Podcast for a free consultation today. Hey everybody, thanks for listening today. Before I get back to the interview, I just want to remind you that we are always offering some really amazing workshops and you can see the whole [email protected] on the navigation head to how we help. Scroll down and you’ll see workshops and you can see the whole list there with descriptions of each workshop. They are all in Denver and we’ve got them throughout the year for agency owners, account Execs, agency leaders, CFOs. We have a little something for everybody. No matter what it is that you’re struggling with, people, new business, money, all of those things we’ve got covered. So check them out and come join us all right, let’s get back to the show. All right, we are back with Jamie Shibley, and we’re talking about the power of really showing our clients and prospects, but we’re really kind of shifting to clients, but showing our clients that we care and that we see them and that we value them and that we, again, we want to continue the romance. Staying with the analogy we had before the break of when we were wooing them and we were showing them how important we were and that we wanted to be in relationship with them. How do we do that? Well, after we’re in a relationship together. So before the break, you had said that there are some storylines or some things that really you can kind of weave into your giving and program. So talk a little bit more about those. And before I forget, I’m assuming that these are all sort of mapped out in your book too, which we’ll talk about, right? 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, yeah. So we’ve identified through our experience of creating these experiences, like, what are you going to. How are you going to show up and show someone you see them? Six storylines that help your messaging. Because in our research, one of the things that holds people back from, you know, developing or nurturing their relationships is I don’t know what to say. I don’t know what to give them. Right. And now keep in mind, I mentioned gifting is more than just let me get you a present. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Right. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Sometimes this is. Look at the assets you have and how can those be helpful? So another one of those. So we talked about shared experiences. This works well. I’ll give you another example with like your podcast, right? Your podcast guests. I think you’ve done this well with the quote cards afterwards, what you’re doing is you’re showing up and you’re reminding them, we had this great conversation together. That was a fun shared experience. Your speaker gift after the conference, again, thanking them for being part of that, which was probably a great experience for them as well. You can do this pre shared experience as well. If you’re going into an event either as the speaker, maybe it’s speaker two event host. Really looking forward to our time. You know what’s going to come at the event. Can’t wait to share with the audience. So there’s a number of ways to do that. Transitional moments is another storyline. So transitions. Think about this in life. And when we talk about, we’ve talked about, remember your clients, even your prospects, they want to feel seen and understood and they want to feel valid in where they are in their business journey. So if you think about transitional time, what do you know about them? Maybe they are evolving from one type of business to another and they might need help with rebranding. That’s a transitional time. How can you tap into that? 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Or maybe they’re hitting a big milestone. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Yep. Milestone and goals in themselves are another storyline. Yeah. Okay. But you can speak to it in transition, like getting there. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yep. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

One transition that was very unique is we had a client who had moved offices and they used it as a time to. Because they had to inform their clients, anyway, here’s where you can find us. So they used it as a time to send a gift to their entire book of business. Hey, this is where you can find us. And kind of had a nice postcard about the new place. But they talked about, thank you for being with us through this change. And they sent some soup mix and some herbal tea, and they said, you know, here’s the token of our appreciation for being our customer. Nothing feels like home, like a cozy moment. Right. And. And so it was. They wove in their own transition to bring these customers along. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. Fascinating. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

So this is what we do as agency owners. It’s that very creative aspect. Right. So you talked about goals and milestone. You can do them. You can. You can create an experience that motivates. So if you do this before they’ve hit the milestone, because you’re acknowledging. I know you’re working toward this. These are gifts that typically stay on their desk and they motivate you and they remind you of the person who gave it to you. Because, yes, I’m going to hit that. Right. And the same in reverse. If they did hit that goal and you send them something acknowledging it, now this is. It sits there and it just reminds me, yes, I did it. And again, you’re tied into that. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

I’m curious about your opinion about this. So when we get a gift from someone or we get swag or whatever, I always notice if the gift is more about me or if it’s really all branded for a sender. Right. So I’m curious, what’s the psychology? Or does it matter? So if I were to send you something from ami, right. Does it matter that it’s got the AMI logo all over it, or am I better off to not put the AMI logo and just let it be all about you? 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

You’re always going to be better without however you can, if you choose to. Again, you’ve got to find a way to weave the story. So it’s about them. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. Right. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

I will tell you. So we Do a lot of year end gifting, holiday appreciation and whatnot. And then we’ll do some reports on what was the best gift themes kind of thing. We have 1% of gifts that will go out branded in all of our holidays because it’s always more about focusing on the recipients. So it’s okay to say thank you. That’s what we want to do. But again, not thank you for making me a success. You know you want to reverse that message. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Right. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Also showed up in our research that we actually did have a question. Have you ever been irritated by a gift that people gave you? Because we heard that somewhere. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Sure. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

And most people will say no in the comments. People did mention the only time it gets a little irritating is if it’s just too much branded stuff or stuff I don’t need and I’m just gonna. I feel bad having to throw it away. But when am I gonna use this? 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Right. Right. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

So what we usually recommend is it’s all right to have the branding in there somewhere. But there are ways to do that subtly. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

You know, it’s the colors or maybe it’s just the imagery somewhere or it’s. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

On the back or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Yep. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. Oh. So all of this, if people are listening, all of this. I want to admit this may be my bias, but this sounds like duh, like we should be doing this. Right. Like why. So why don’t. Why aren’t we better at this? What. What is the psychology behind why do. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

I have a business? 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah, why do you have a business? Like someone gives us their money over and over and over again. It would be logical, and this may be my mother’s beating thank you notes into my head when I was a little kid, but it seems logical that you would say thank you now and then. So why aren’t we better at this? 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

We ask that same question. So a few buckets. One is, is usually the, the top one that comes out is time. I mean, we wear a lot of hats as business owners. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

And this generally feels like something that is just a nice to have when push comes to shove and I’ve got so many things to do and I got to win business. This doesn’t feel like it’s part of it usually. That is, we maybe haven’t thought of, we’ll have someone else responsible for it so that when times are crazy, that person is still dedicated to it. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Right. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Another thing that came up is that gets in the way is usually the outside world hits us. Right. So we’re going through this. Right. Now the economy, things shake up. And again, I’m going to put all of this stuff aside because I need all my attention in this one place. And it actually shows up in personal life too. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Gets in the way or I don’t have the budget. Like, I can’t do some big grandiose thing, therefore I don’t do anything. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Well, what’s funny, Drew, is that in our research, most people don’t even have a budget dedicated to this. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Oh, right. I’m sure that’s true. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Yeah. Only 34% of the companies in our survey have a strategy for this at all. Again, so this goes back to just think about how much you could stand out if you just gave it a little bit. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Right. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

And then the other thing that comes up for what’s getting in the way is I don’t know what or how to be good at this. Yeah. So, you know, hopefully this conversation gave you a few ideas again, because can be so simple. We’ve sometimes had some clients. When the economy first started becoming a mess this year, it was about the tariffs. And we had a company who, their market was very impacted by this. So they quick did a webinar and got all their community talked about what they could do. Then they released a white paper on it. That white paper was printed and mailed to their top prospects. How much did that cost them? Right. Like, and yet look what it did. It said, I see what you’re struggling with right now. I know you’re going to have a hard time with this. Let me help make it easier. Huge. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. I do think getting something in the mail is like, like I’m, I’m. Again, I’m a big thank you note writer. I still believe you should send birthday card. Like, I. Because we don’t get everything that comes in the mailbox. Today is junk. Right? Right. Yeah. And so to get something fun in the mail is a really. I mean, other than Amazon boxes, which I guess we’re all probably used to, but. But those are of our own accord. Right. So I am sure some people listening are like, well, you know what? My clients don’t work in offices anymore. Blah. Right. So how do you. Because I know, I know you are helping a lot. You’re helping your clients do this. I mean, that’s what your business does. So how do you deal with the fact that a lot of people aren’t working in an office anymore? 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Oh, absolutely. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

And I think that’s an excuse that people use to not actually do this. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

I think we’re so afraid of being rejected when we tell people, it’s the easiest thing to ask. You’d be so surprised if you simply say, what’s a good mailing address? If I want to send you a proper thank you, or if I want to send you, you know, if I want to send you something, nobody says, no, they don’t. It’s that easy, right? When it comes to prospect, we tell people research, but find two sources, and AI can help you there. But make sure you validate it by a couple sources because the addresses, we don’t usually keep them up online. So well. But it really is pretty easy. Listen, if you need some incentive for this, all the listeners would. Our research showed when it comes to your prospects, 59%. I was going to say 60, 59% of people say if they receive something in the mail from prospects, it makes them more likely to pay attention to your content. They start listening. It’s your door opener. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. Or reading or watching or write. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let’s talk a little bit about the mechanics of this. So on the prospect side, because I know you’ve done a ton of research on this, like, you don’t want to see, you don’t want to come off desperate, and you have a finite budget. So how often should I be showing up in prospects mailbox? Right. And not inbox, but mailbox. How often should I be. How often should I be gifting or sharing a resource with that you guys. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Laid out with the. Every single six to eight weeks. Listen, if you can’t manage it anymore, I would say at least quarterly. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Right. But six to eight weeks sounds a lot, but it’s really. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

We’re talking eight times a year, and it’s best. And this is one of the reasons I loved your class. Sit down and lay it all out. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Oh, gosh. Yeah. And get it all lined up. Have it in a break room or down in your basement or whatever. Like, have all the books. Have all the things, whatever you’re going to do. Just. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Oh, One of the big questions we get is, well, what if I don’t have a book? What if I’m not an author? Well, you don’t have to be an author. Find content that is. I mean, still a book that is relevant to the audience. And then the next question is going to be when you talk about, like a system, okay, here’s the three places they break down. First, they don’t even know who. They don’t have the list. Right, right. Get yourself 10. Find 10. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. Well. And as you know, as you remember from the class Our thing is no more than 25. You cannot nurture more than 25 relationships at a time. So we’re not talking bazillions of dollars with, you know, it’s not that it is about the right 10 or 25. Yeah, yeah. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

So get that list. And then the next big break is how can you possibly know how to show someone you understand them or that you care if you don’t really know about them? Take the time to do the research, and if you do nothing else, I want you to look up two things in the industry that you’re going after. What are the top five challenges for those companies, and what are the top five things preventing them from solving that? And then if you want, look up trends. What are the trends in that industry? By understanding that alone, you can start to think of how you can be helpful and what you could send them. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Okay, so that’s on the prospect side, on the client side, you were saying a couple times a year, do the same research. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Right. And on the client side, I would also suggest getting your team together and doing this as a whole, because brainstorm all the things that you know about these clients. What have you heard about them personally? What are they talking about when you catch up with them in their personal. Maybe you find out that their kid is graduating the first. And you do this as a team because it will spark a memory for someone else. Oh, yeah, they just told me this. They’re moving. They’re building a house. Collect all those things. You and Danielle do this? Well, I mean, when our dog passed away, that’s a big, big sad moment in our life, you know, I mean, yes. And the beautiful card. And look at our bond over dogs because of this. Right. Like, we know that’s something we align on and we can come together on. And it goes far because that’s just like the stepping stone now in our relationship. And you again with the Dairy Queen, and you brought in the family. And you’ve told me this before. When your team has worked hard for you, you will send them something. You know, go out, dinner with the family or whatever. Guys, that’s huge. When you recognize the significant others, those people as your. Your team want to tell everybody about you. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. You know, it’s. It’s funny because one thing we haven’t talked about, but so, you know, when. When you lost your dog and we sent the sympathy card, that’s acknowledging your moment, but it’s also a connective moment because we’re such dog people. We’re such animal people. Right. And the Dairy Queen. You know, I believe ice cream is its own food group and should be consumed every day. So I’m. As you’re talking, I’m thinking, oh, this is. This is not just about you, but it’s about something we have in connection. Yeah. So Robin, who you’ve met, our creative director, who’s. We’ve worked together for 20 some years. I can’t. I think she’s on anniversary 22 or something now. Her birthday came up, and she’s a big Chicago Cubs fan, but I love her anyway. But we have baseball in common. Right. And so for her birthday, we got her tickets to a ball game that. At a park she hadn’t been to yet. Well, so again, that’s acknowledge. Where the Cubs are playing, obviously. So that’s obviously acknowledging her love. But interestingly, yes, I’m a big baseball guy, and so I think it’s. It’s an interesting idea to think about. Like, how do you remind somebody that you’re similar or connected in other ways? 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

We call that relationship related. So that’s a relationship storyline. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

We had a guy who sent his clients and prospects a summer gift with a story. It was just a yard game. And it said, every summer since I’ve been growing up, my family, we go to the cabin. We have a cabin on the lake, and it has great memories kind of thing. Wishing you a wonderful summer with your family and friends. And here’s the game again. Think about what that sparked, because a good number of us probably had something we did every summer, and I can come back and talk to you about that, and it sparks more stories, and now you’re collecting more for the relationship. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Oh, right, right. They weren’t jerks. Right. They weren’t that way. You throw that. Where you throw the arrows at each other, which is what we all grew up with, but apparently now is inappropriate. Yeah. You can only. You can only find it on ebay, I think, now. So. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

But. But if you shared that story, how many of us laugh about that? Right? 

 

Drew McLellan: 

That’s right. So your whole agency is built on the psychology of this and on the premise. So. So as if people are listening and they’re like, I totally want to do this. I get it. But, oh, my God, I don’t. I don’t know how to start. I don’t know where to go. Talk a little bit about how you come alongside clients and help them figure this out. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Yeah. So kind of the process we laid out, we stepped through. Where are you good at it now? You know, have you. Because maybe. Maybe you do. You’re doing really well at your clients. I’ve got that covered. They know. But, you know, we really want a new business. We program. We aren’t doing anything today. We just can’t get to it, you know, so we identify which one because usually starting with one of your relationship categories makes the most sense and then you can add on from there, but we’ll dig into the who and then help identify the actual contacts on the list. So, you know, if the team can’t get to it, if you don’t have a list, we help dig in, do the research and find that we help guide people through then the research to understand who these people are and make the recommendations on. Once you’ve done all of this research, you can begin to pull out the threads of, if we think about it in agency terms, keywords that you can draw on to create your stories for engaging with these people. And then we do everything down to the actual execution of it. If the team. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Right. Like you’ll buy the stuff, you’ll package this stuff, you’ll ship the stuff. Right. You’ll manage the timing of it, all of that. Right. So for you, it starts with the strategy, but you’re sort of the one stop shop. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Right, Right, Yeah, yeah. And that’s where we started was with the actual fulfillment. And then we saw the gap, that it wasn’t enough because most people just don’t even know where to start. Like they can’t get to it. And so that was kind of our evolution. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah, and you’ve written a whole book about it. So let’s talk a little bit as we kind of wrap up, talk a little bit about the book and sort of the big takeaway from the book and what prompted you to decide to write a book? Because that’s not an easy task. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

No, no. But I watched everybody else doing it. It’s like again, the thought leadership. Right, right. But I had been doing a lot of research, as you know. You know, I interviewed you about your pros and cons and what you’re doing for building relationships. And I had enough stories and it was pointed out to me enough times that this is a skill set that comes naturally to me, but most people don’t see it that way and that there was probably a lot of things we did behind the scenes that would be eye opening for other people. So, like, I had no idea the storylines that guide my design, you know, would be such a big topic for people. And it comes up a lot now. So the book lays out the strategy, we Work through as well as how to design it yourself and have the team implement it. Yeah, it’s been fun because I’ve had quite a few people say they bought it for their whole team. You just never know. Is it going to be really. I mean, it’s my thing. Are other people going to find it as useful and really dig in? So that was exciting. So, yeah. Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

One of the things I, when I read the book, one of the things I thought about is account service people need to read this because, yes, the agency can do things, but your account people are your relationship builders. And if they’re not good at this on a sort of smaller scale, but still like listening for what’s important to someone, remembering when somebody’s kid had a big Little league tournament, like whatever it is, and they don’t sort of lean into that, then you know that’s. That’s problematic in that they’re not nurturing and building that relationship. So you’re right. It’s something that the whole team could, could read for sure. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

And I’ll speak to that because we’ve been watching this for years. I have long said this, that what I have found is that clients sign up with us maybe for the fulfillment. Start with something simple. We’re just going to do the birthday. We’re just going to do the thing. And it never fails. It grows from there. And then when their team, when they finally say, okay, team, you can work with the expressway. When you hear someone’s getting married or this or that, it’s rewarding. It’s like the team gets so excited about identifying something, doing something about it, and then receiving the engagement from it. It’s cyclical. It just grows. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Well, think about it. By working with you, you remove the lift, right? It’s like, all I have to do is send an email saying somebody got married or had a baby or got a puppy or whatever the thing is, and I don’t have to do the work anymore. Like, it’s already been. And this gets back to your point of don’t try and think of it in the moment. Whether you’re doing it yourself, you’re hiring your agency, whatever it is, like have a game plan. Like once a quarter, we’re going to send this to clients. When someone gets married or has a baby or has some other life event. This. Like, we already have an inventory of the stuff. We already know what it is. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

We’ve already written the note that goes with it. Like, it’s like, it’s literally just a, hey, send it. And I don’t have to think about it anymore. So imagine how more often your people, your team, to the listeners would be like, oh, I need to send that baby gift. If they didn’t have to run to Target and buy the baby gift or. Yeah, like, Right. And package it up, and then they got to go to the post office and mail it and, you know, all of that. So the more streamlined and sort of automated you can make it, the more likely it is for you, the agency owner or leader, but also the rest of your team, to the extent that they have permission, will do these things. You know, whether. Whether you’re keeping a stack of gift cards in the office or whatever it is. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Right. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. It matters. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

And then I would invite you. Once you do that and you start as a team, start watching what happens from a tracking standpoint, because I think we look for the ROI of this stuff and how many more sales did we get or did people buy more? But you’d be surprised at how much more you get than that. It’s, oh, hey, thanks, by the way, I need to connect you with so and so. Or, you know what? I was just thinking about you. We need to, you know, would you want to come on and talk about this? You get invites, you get referrals, you. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Get invitations to their events, you get. Yeah. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Introductions. Just. Yeah, yeah. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

You know, which ultimately is the currency, Right? That is. Yes, that it’s the. It is a demonstration of the currency that we all care most about, which is that trust. Because I will tell you, and we don’t have time to get into this because we could keep talking forever, but I was working on. On my keynote for the summit, and I found a fact which actually is going to probably be part of my keynote for next year. I know it seems weird that I’m already thinking about it, but. But one of the facts was that when there is no greater risk to us as professionals than making a referral, because if I refer you to someone else and you don’t. Don’t show up the way I promised them you would, then that not only reflects badly on you, but it reflects bad. It’s my currency with that person that I made the referral to. And so when we can generate referrals, which everyone knows is the fastest, best way to get new business, when we can generate really heartfelt referrals, that means somebody’s taking a huge risk. They are risking their reputation by referring us. And so to your point, the more you create that trust and that feeling of being seen, the more likely they are to take that risk and make that referral. And that is, for most of us, that’s probably the most valuable thing a client or a prospect can do is introduce us to someone else that we can help. I mean, that’s. It’s hard to put a dollar value on that, but it’s significant, right? Yeah. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Right. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

All right. I need to let you go, but I know you probably have a puppy to walk. So give everybody a little bit of information. How can they find you? How can they learn how to work with. With your agency? Where can they get the book, all of those things. If they want to follow you on social media, all the things, how can they find you? 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Thanks. Yes. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

So the website is the expressory and I always spell it the expressor y.com and you can grab a copy of the book under the resources there. It’s free and that’ll go through like everything we were talking about with the strategy and the storylines and things like that. And then we host Q&As. You can find that there. There’s a contact form. I assume my email will be in the show notes somewhere. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yep. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

But yeah, happy to connect and brainstorm and help in any way that I can. As Drew said, we could talk forever because this is kind of our, our language. Right. This is what we do naturally. So you can tell I would, I would love to continue the conversation at any time. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

Yeah. So if you don’t do anything else, grab the book. First of all, it’s free, but it is a roadmap of how to be better at this. And it really does sort of. It not only tells you exactly what to do, but it tells you why it’s important. And so it’s a pretty quick read. It’s an easy read, but it’s a really thought provoking read that is going to get you thinking about. And by the way, you reading the book is going to change how you show up on your personal side of your life as well as your professional side. It’s not just about how do I send prospects and clients stuff, but it’s the psychology of it is going to make you think about all the relationships in your life a little differently and how do you. How do you create those magical moments that make someone feel like you still really care and you’re. They’re seen and you. And you heard them and you understand what’s important in their life. So really a great read. Jamie, this has been a fascinating conversation. Thanks for, thanks for being with us. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

Thank you. Appreciate it. 

 

Drew McLellan: 

All right, all right. Everybody, this wraps up another episode. Again, here’s. Here’s your homework. I want you to think of one client that’s been significant to your business. And I, in the spirit of everything we’ve talked about, I just want you to write them a thank you note, but not a thank you email. Like, I want you to hand, like go to the store, buy a thank you card, or if you have stationary at home, which all of you should have, by the way, just write a thank you note, you know, dear fill in the blank. And then just tell them what their business or their friendship or their referrals or something has meant to you and stick it in the mail and then wait. Because I promise you, I promise you, you will hear back from them and it will be more meaningful to them than you can imagine. And so let that be the litmus test of everything Jamie and I have just been talking about. If a handwritten thank you note with no gift, just an acknowledgment of the human being and what they’ve done for you and your business, if that generates a response, imagine what following a program like Jamie’s talking about could do for your business. You know, if you’re listening to this in real time, it’s 2025. The economy is a hot mess. Everybody’s all tense about everything that’s happening, at least here in the economy, United States, and how that trickles throughout the entire world. So there we’re in a stressful time, and everybody is anxious about new business. And everyone is also being very budget conscious. So I’m telling you, this is a simple, inexpensive way for you to actually impact your business is to go get Jamie’s free book. Follow the advice. Whether you do it yourself or you hire them to do it, follow the advice and watch it blossom and grow. And here’s one thing we didn’t even talk about. Watch how it makes you and your team feel. Because I’ll tell you selfishly, one of the reasons why I like writing the thank you notes and I like sending the cards is because of how it makes me feel as a human being when I send it and also when it gets acknowledged. And so it’s also a great way. It’s a team building thing. It’s a morale thing. So it’s just good medicine all around. So that’s your homework. One thank you note, one handwritten thank you note. And then email me and tell me what happened, because I think you’re going to be surprised at how impactful it is. All right, so that’s that two more things. You know, before I let you go, I have to say thank you to our friends at White Label iq. And by the way, going on their website, which Is white label iq.com/ami and sending them a note and saying thank you for sponsoring the Build A Better Agency podcast would be a really lovely gesture if you, if you value this podcast and you’re like, oh, every once in a while Drew and his guests say something interesting that I can lean into or I like listening, you know, every so often or I listen every week, whatever it is. The best thing you can do for me to say thank you to me is to send them a note and say, we love the podcast, we find value in the podcast. We know that Drew wouldn’t be able to do it without yourself support. Thank you for being the presenting sponsor. That would be lovely. But if you don’t know about White Label, they do White Label design, dev and PPC for agencies. They come alongside an agency and maybe you need an extra set of hands. Maybe you don’t offer that service at all, but you want to, but you don’t want to hire for it. They can be your outsource partner. They help agencies all over the world deliver amazing content and product and websites and landing pages and apps and all kinds of things for their clients. So check them out at white label iq.com/ami. And certainly last but never least for me is I am super grateful I don’t get to hang out with people like Jamie and have these conversations if you don’t listen. So I would be, I would be super sad if I couldn’t do this every week and I couldn’t learn from people like Jamie. So I am grateful that you keep coming back for a little bit more and that you find value in this and that you let our guests know that you find value and you follow them and connect with them. All of that makes this possible. And so I am grateful for you and that you keep coming back and I promise I will as well. And so next week I’ll be back with another guest like Jamie and I hope you will join me for that as well. So have a great week, thanks for listening and I’ll see you soon. 

 

Jamie Shibley: 

That’s all for this episode of AMI’s Build a Better Agency Agency podcast. Be sure to visit agencymanagementinstitute.com to learn more about our workshops, online courses and other ways we serve small to mid sized agencies. Don’t forget to subscribe today so you don’t miss an episode.