Transformative Agency Strategies with Marcus Sheridan

Drew McLellan [00:00:37]:

Hey everybody, Drew Mclellan here with another episode of Build a Better Agency. Super excited about this conversation and I know you’re going to really dig in and enjoy it as well. Before I tell you a little bit about our guests, I just want to remind you we have some great workshops coming up this fall. In September, we have the Advanced A Boot camp and we have our brand new workshop, growing the clients you already have. Remember, 60 to 70% of your net new revenue every year should come from existing clients. And in a climate where new business is challenging like it is in 2025, even more important. So this workshop got rave reviews. We’re super excited to offer it again and it will be in Denver like all our workshops are. And then in October we have the AE bootcamp. So the entry level bootcamp for account execs and managers, project managers, account coordinators, folks like that. And then our perennial favorite, Money matters, which is also in October. So please join us here in Denver in September, October to continue your professional development or your team’s professional development. We would love to have you. Just a reminder, the growing your clients that you already have, that’s a senior level workshop. Don’t send like a junior AE or somebody junior because this requires systematic change throughout your agency. So director of ops, director of account service, agency owners, those are the appropriate people for that workshop to get the most out of it. All right, let me tell you a little bit about our guest. Although I don’t really need to tell you about him because I am sure that all of you are very familiar with him and his work. So if you’ve been in marketing for any length of time at all, you have probably read Marcus Sheridan’s book, they ask, you answer. It was a really a very early indicator of the power of content marketing and Marcus has been a champion of that for many, many years now. And he’s got a brand new book out that sort of looks at that kind of marketing for agencies. But through the lens of in this technology driven world with AI and everything else, how do we show up for clients in a way and prospects in a way that they find us indispensable. So cannot wait to have this conversation. And so, without further ado, let’s welcome him to the show. Marcus, welcome to the podcast. I am delighted to have you on the show. Thanks for being with us.

Marcus Sheridan [00:02:52]:

I got a good feeling about this conversation, Drew.

Drew McLellan [00:02:55]:

I think it’s going to be good. So you have a brand new book out for the probably two people who are listening that aren’t familiar with your work. Just give them a brief bio of how you’ve come into this space and come to believe the things that you have with both of your books.

Marcus Sheridan [00:03:10]:

Yeah, the quick 60 second bio is. I started a pool company called River Pools with a couple buddies in 2001. Things were going just okay. We were fighting to grow the business up until the crash of 2008, 2009, and that was when it looked like we were going to have to file bankruptcy. But the beauty of pain is that it forces us outside of our comfort zones. That’s when I started doing things from a marketing perspective that I had never done. And they just made sense to me. I didn’t realize they were innovative at the time, but they turned out to be innovative. And it led us to become the most trafficked swimming pool website in the world. Saved the business. We ended up becoming a manufacturer of fiberglass pools, a franchise, the first in the country, the US on that. And it really took off. And as I was going through this journey, I was like, man, everybody should be doing this. And so I started to write about it. And that led to me having a full time career as a professional speaker today. And I started an agency that teaches organizations how to do the thing that I was doing. And that company’s called Impact. And I wrote the book they ask you answer about this journey in 2017. Did really well. Second edition came out in 2020, and then the third edition came out just a few, you know, like, like a month ago. It’s called Endless Customers. And it had to be written really because of everything that’s happened since November of 2022, which we all know is, of course, AI and where the world’s headed. And, you know, once that book was written, everybody was saying, excuse me, once AI came out, I just started getting a lot of questions about the future of websites and content, yada, yada. And so that’s been my journey. And I’ve, you know, gotten to the point in my life where I’ve got a bunch of other companies now too, that I just, I’m really passionate about Business. I love starting companies and it’s very, very enjoyable and I just love the thrill and excitement of seeing if you can grow a business.

Drew McLellan [00:05:07]:

So the premise of, of your original book was really all about being a subject matter expert and anticipating all the questions that a prospect or a client might have and proactively sharing them. Basically being a subject matter expert, sharing your expertise, earning their trust. So what’s the shift? What do you think the biggest shift is between the first book and this new iteration with endless customers?

Marcus Sheridan [00:05:35]:

Yeah, a couple of things going on here. You know, somebody says to me, what is they ask, you answer. They is of course the buyer, right?

Drew McLellan [00:05:43]:

Yep.

Marcus Sheridan [00:05:43]:

And you answer doesn’t always mean purely answer the question. Sometimes it’s answer the behavior.

Drew McLellan [00:05:53]:

Right.

Marcus Sheridan [00:05:54]:

Or answer the trend line, whatever that, whatever that is. So when we’re truly obsessed with buyers, and I think this is the great divide with a lot of businesses, a lot of business owners, they say they care about the buyer, but they’re not really obsessed. Like I’m obsessed with buyers. I’m obsessed with myself in terms of my own behavior as a buyer. I’m constantly asking myself, why did I, you know, why did I agree to buy that? Or why did I click on that? Or, you know, it’s like I’m not just living, going through life through the motions, I’m studying myself, which I think can make you an extraordinary marketer if you’re studying yourself.

Drew McLellan [00:06:28]:

Right.

Marcus Sheridan [00:06:28]:

And so that’s really what they ask you answer was. And when AI came out in November of 2022, at least the AI as we know it today, ChatGPT started getting a lot of questions like, you know, Marcus, what does this mean for websites? What does this mean for this? What does it mean for that? And there’s been a massive shift because if you look at it Drew, in the world of business and certainly in the world of agencies, for the better part of two decades, we had to please two entities. We had to be recommended by two fundamental entities, number one, by our customers. Pretty no, you know, no brainer there. And that’s always going to be that way. It’s not going to change. It’s always been, always will be. The second, of course, was search engines, specifically Google. Over the last 20 years, Google has run our lives from a business perspective. And most agencies live and die by Google in some way, shape or form. Most businesses do too, either through the form of paying for it or earning it. Those are the two ways. And then suddenly we see ChatGPT comes out and quickly I said, talk about they ask, you answer. What they’re asking for is, I want answers quicker, I want a better search experience. And, you know, so today I can go to Chat GPT and I know this is table stakes for most, but just play with me for a second here, like we’re going to do mental exercise together, right? I can go to ChatGPT and I can get an immediate answer. I don’t have any sponsored ads to look at. I see no fluff whatsoever and I get exactly what I want and I get it quickly, right? And ChatGPT search experience, in terms of taking it all the way through the purchase, is getting literally better by the day. They’re obsessed with this. And then I look at Google today and I see what is essentially, for the most part, a similar model that they’ve had for, you know, 20 years, which is they’re going to show me sponsored searches. Okay, yeah, they’re going to give me an AI answer. Yeah, I get that. And then they’re going to show me some related questions and, you know, then they might show me a map or some videos and then I might get some search results. Which is why if you rank number one today in Google, it doesn’t really mean squat oftentimes, whereas before it meant, okay, I’m going to get 80% of the searches. My life is good. If you’re an SEO company, you’re like, okay, we’re winning for you. You can help someone rank number one in search results for dramatically more terms today. And they’re still losing traffic because buyers are moving from Google to AI. And so the future of business, and I believe the future of agencies in many ways, is how can I get recommended by AI? Of course, with agencies, is how do I get my clients recommended by AI? Which is dramatically harder because you can’t just throw money at the problem and solve it. And that’s the thing. We’ve got the law of the harvest that’s going on here. This is not going to be easy. You actually have to, like, prepare the field and you’ve got to plant the field and you’ve got to, like, nourish the field and you’ve got to tend to the field. And then, and then you might start to get some of those fundamental AI recommendations. And I don’t think that’s the only thing that agencies are going to obsess over. But I think if an agency and or a business is building their house on Google today, either straight SEO or paid ads, I think they’re gonna be in big trouble in the coming years. And they might not feel it yet, but I promise you they will feel it. Because you cannot tell me that more and more people every single day are not going to become fundamentally aware of this wonderful search experience that we’re now being offered that’s dramatically more effective. I just don’t believe that to be the case. And I’m a realist, and I learned a long time ago in business, Marcus, do not let your personal opinions screw up smart business decisions. I. And a smart decision is saying, where’s the world headed? And it’s headed in this direction.

Drew McLellan [00:10:24]:

Yeah. It’ll be interesting to see how the AI sort of search bots, how they evolve. You know, I can remember back in the day when Google didn’t have sponsored ads and it was pure, you know, organic search and all of that. Right, right. The good old days. Right. And so I do wonder, as. As we’re watching this evolve, is the evolution of ChatGPT and all the other, you know, tools out there, will they take a different trajectory or will they spurn paid ads, or will they find some other way to make.

Marcus Sheridan [00:10:58]:

They will. They will spurn. Yeah, they will spurn. This is exactly. If you look at the new Google search experience, they, you know, there’s the day they announced. This was like last week they announced their new Google search, and that particular day, the Stock dropped like 7 percentage points because they have to cannibalize their existing business. Search business. Now it’s a $200 billion business annually. This is huge. I think it’s very safe to say that it will not continue to be a $200 billion business. It’s extraordinary to me how many SEOs I’ve talked to or listened to since the. Since ChatGPT came out. That said, nah, I think SEO companies are fine. I don’t think really anything changes. And I’m like, what world are you living it? Are you intentionally being ignorant? Or are you just being utterly misleading and nefarious, potentially? And I’m looking at Google. That’s really, really funny to me, Drew, because what caused Google to rise to their prominence was one of the greatest design decisions in the world. From a UX perspective. We’re just going to make a screen with a little box. Now, before that, there’s this company called Yahoo. Most of you have forgotten about Yahoo, but if you go to Yahoo today, they made this, they show this exact same reason why you left Yahoo 20 years ago and went to Google. Because they said, let’s have a little box. And then let’s also talk about the weather and then let’s talk about, you know, Hollywood and let’s talk about some, you know, other news and then let’s show them everything we possibly can on one page, which is ended up being a trillion dollar design mistake on their part. And it’s extraordinary because it’s still there. It shows exactly like it is. There’s a reason why nobody uses them. And so I said, okay, Google became the most powerful brand in the world because they said we’re going to have a clear focus. You know, it’s interesting too, right, Drew, because this is one thing that you teach the agencies that are in your community. It’s like you must have a clear focus. You got to understand who you are, who you’re not, understand your lane and just run through that lane as hard as you possibly can. The problem is when you look at now what’s happened, it’s now when you do the search experience, you have a much better one with AI in most cases. Because why Google will not replace their existing business model and this is how companies get replaced is because they become so addicted to, to the way it has been for them, they refuse to replace what is that revenue machine to pivot like they need to. Agencies are doing the same thing right now, by the way. I mean, let’s be honest.

Drew McLellan [00:13:42]:

For sure. Scrambling.

Marcus Sheridan [00:13:43]:

Yeah, yeah. The ones that are, that are saying, you know, this has worked for us really well the last 10 years. And if you aren’t doing SEO plus AI recommendations at this point, I think every agency there’s like the future of agencies not to get us off track.

Drew McLellan [00:13:59]:

But I see it is all the same track.

Marcus Sheridan [00:14:01]:

Yeah, it’s all the same track. Right. Thank you, Drew. You’re great. I see three fundamental futures for agencies in terms of what they need to be doing. Number one, you need to become a coaching strategy based agency.

Drew McLellan [00:14:16]:

Yep.

Marcus Sheridan [00:14:17]:

You have to be a strategic coach. And we can talk a lot about that because that’s hard. That’s a hard skill to develop, Drew. I’m sure you see it every single day. Number two, I think you have to obsess over a megatrend that is self service. Giving buyers control, helping your clients create self service tools on their website, online. I think we should talk about that because every agency right now should be doing those so powerful. The results are huge. I hope we talk about that. And then number three, I think it’s your fiduciary as an agency to do AI training for your clients. And instead of acting like AI doesn’t exist, instead of pretending like, it’s not going to replace your job. Be the agency that teaches your clients how to leverage, how to use, and how to multiply with AI every single day. And they will love you. They will love you.

Drew McLellan [00:15:15]:

It’s interesting. You know, every year we do proprietary research called the Agency Edge. We just came out of the field with the 2025 study, which was all about AI. How are clients feeling about AI? How are they using AI? What do they want from their agencies? And they said exactly what you just said, which is, I expect my agency to be the AI expert. I expect them to be my guide and teacher and not just about marketing. I expect them to understand the world of AI, whether it’s efficiency in my factory or how to connect better with customers or how to manage my messaging or how to handle my production or my distribution. They expect their agencies to help them figure all of that out. So you’re exactly right. It’s what our clients want from us. And right now, they’re kind of disappointed that we have not stepped up into that role to the level that they need us.

Marcus Sheridan [00:16:11]:

Because too many agencies have a scarcity mentality. They think it’s no different than this is the same reason why so many companies, they hear, they ask, you answer the story of it in my pool company, and they’re like, wow, that’s amazing. And then they don’t actually do it because they’re coming from a place of scarcity. It’s like, I don’t know if we can discuss cost and price online because of X, Y and Z. And, well, then you’re not getting the leads, you’re not getting the trust, you’re not getting the traffic, you’re not getting the recommendation, whatever that thing is, because you’re coming from a place of scarcity. The future is not going to be won by those that have a scarcity mindset. Agency world, not, I can tell you right now, this ain’t going to happen.

Drew McLellan [00:16:50]:

Right. I totally agree. And it’s interesting. The three things you just said are the things that we’ve been preaching, which is can’t be about. Can’t be about the deliverables anymore. It’s got to be about the strategy. It’s got to be about helping your clients think about their business differently.

Marcus Sheridan [00:17:04]:

Can we talk about strategy for a second?

Drew McLellan [00:17:06]:

Yeah, let’s do it.

Marcus Sheridan [00:17:07]:

I want to lean into that one for a minute, Drew, because I’m pretty obsessed about this and so much so that I actually have a company called Question First Group. It’s interesting. We didn’t know this. This is a sales and leadership communication company is what it is. We do training, a lot of roleplay training. And what was interesting is when I started the company, I started it last year, and it took off really, really nice. I did not expect one of our core clients to be agencies. That’s what it became. And what I found is there’s a group of agencies that are realizing, oh, we’re kind of screwed unless we become a lot more strategic. But if. If you’re going to be more strategic, you got to start thinking like a coach. The problem with most agency employees, and I know you’ve seen this with. With your community, Drew, is that they’re. Yes. Men and women.

Drew McLellan [00:17:51]:

Right.

Marcus Sheridan [00:17:51]:

So the agency world, for 20 years, clients said, hey, can you do this?

Drew McLellan [00:17:56]:

Yes.

Marcus Sheridan [00:17:57]:

Yeah, we can do that. You know, it’s like, that’s what it was.

Drew McLellan [00:18:00]:

Yep. And then on the drive home, they’re like, I got to figure out how to do that. Right.

Marcus Sheridan [00:18:04]:

That’s right. What it was not is, well, tell me why you want to do that.

Drew McLellan [00:18:07]:

Right.

Marcus Sheridan [00:18:08]:

And why do you think that’s important? How does that align with our priorities right now? It’s not what. See, that’s not what it was. It’s extraordinary to me. You know, a lot of people don’t realize that. The original company I had when I started doing the ask you answer before I wrote the book was a little company called the sales Lion. I know, it’s a funny name. I just love Lions, and I like sales. So it’s called the sales Lion. And I had this little consulting company. We were teaching folks how to do the ask you answer and really own their marketing future. And I ended up merging with a company called Impact. And Impact was a big HubSpot agency. My partner there is named Bob Ruffalo. So we ended up merging the companies. And he was a traditional agency. And after a year of being together, he came to me and he’s like, marcus, I got a. I got a big problem. And the big problem is I’m looking at all of our clients, and all the great case studies that we have aren’t coming from the traditional side of the business. You know, the do it for you stuff.

Drew McLellan [00:19:04]:

Right.

Marcus Sheridan [00:19:05]:

It’s coming from the folks that are doing they ask, you answer. And so he said, I want to turn the entire company into the they ask you answer implementation company. Slash, now endless customers. So just like, you know, if you work with an EOS coach, that’s what impact is today. Now, the problem with that, though, Drew, is literally I had to, at that point, take 45 employees that had been. Yes, people.

Drew McLellan [00:19:29]:

Right.

Marcus Sheridan [00:19:30]:

And turn them into coaches. And let me tell you, that is not easy.

Drew McLellan [00:19:35]:

So this is the problem most agencies have is the owner typically is just natively good at asking great questions and probing and whatever. Maybe there’s a. Maybe there’s one or two other people inside the shop that are good at it. But to your point, they don’t know how to teach other people to think the way they think and to ask questions rather than take the order. So the owner gets stuck in the implementation with their more strategic, bigger clients because they’re the only ones that can sit at the table and respectfully push back and ask the right questions.

Marcus Sheridan [00:20:10]:

Well, you. I mean, you’re just nailing it. And unless we start to think differently and hire differently and then train differently.

Drew McLellan [00:20:17]:

Right.

Marcus Sheridan [00:20:18]:

I can tell you right now, less than 1% of agency workers have had a role play communication training in the last 90 days. Right. It’s extraordinary, right, Drew? Because what do we do all day long? We are communicating with clients, and lots of times it’s high stakes. So what does this mean? Instead of practicing on our team members, this thing called communication, which is the most important component of our job, we’re practicing on our customers, the ones that are paying us money. And this is why we’ve got a churn problem in the industry. And, you know, there’s like, I’ve seen like a lot of crazy stats on this. Just like this whole issue. Let me, let me just share a couple that I grabbed. So in 2021, 30% of brands plan to leave their marketing agency within six months. In 22, 2022 is 38%. We’re heading for the exit within six months. And then 2023, 55%, we’re planning to cut ties within the next six months. Right. And the biggest reason for this is because we’re not becoming literally indispensable as an agency.

Drew McLellan [00:21:25]:

You’re right.

Marcus Sheridan [00:21:26]:

If you want to be an agency, it’s built to last. If you want to kill churn, you’ve got to become indispensable. How do you become indispensable? You have to start thinking like a coach, like a mentor, and not someone that just says yes. I know the coaches that I have let go of were the ones that were more interested in me liking them and us having, like, this harmonious relationship than the ones that pushed me and challenged me. And I’ve worked with a bunch of different business coaches. I just don’t respect those. I Don’t respect those folks. This is, you know, this is one of those. One of those things where I know when I joined Impact, their sales team would watch me and I had a sales. Let’s call it a sales cycle was 25% the length of their traditional sales cycle. I was closing deals way, way faster. And they said, well, it’s because it’s Marcus, and he wrote a book and he’s Marcus Sheridan. And I said, you don’t understand. The big difference between you and I is when I get on a sales call with a potential client, I am always ready to say, this is not a good fit.

Drew McLellan [00:22:28]:

Right?

Marcus Sheridan [00:22:29]:

It’s just constantly at the edge of my, like, mouth.

Drew McLellan [00:22:32]:

When you make it harder for the prospect to buy because you’re pushing back, you’re asking harder questions. You know, one of the core elements of both of your books is this idea of trust, which we haven’t really. We haven’t used the T word yet, but everything we’re talking about is about trust, right? So when you ask me hard questions and you don’t feel desperate for the sale and you don’t yes, man me, then I’m like, oh, this is somebody who actually cares about my business, who actually understands the world that I live in, who’s asking me hard questions that nobody else asks me. So that’s what builds the trust, right? I can have confidence in this person that they have my best interest at heart.

Marcus Sheridan [00:23:12]:

You know, everything. There’s, like, the one thing that I know is not going to change is the fundamental necessity of trust and every component of life and certainly business. You know, you talk to any company and you say, is trust going to be fundamental to your business? In 20 years, you’re going to say, yes. You know, but it’s Facebook. No, it’s not going to be, because we’re going to have moved on by that point in time. Because platforms come and go. Principles. They don’t. They are. And so it’s like principles of trust and communication. It’s the same thing. But the problem is everybody knows that it’s a problem, yet they’re not doing anything about it. I mean, I. All I have to do is, if I’m talking to an agency, I ask one question. And not to beat a dead horse here, but it’s the same question every time. How often do you do communication training for your account managers? How often? And if they’re not saying once a week, they’re losing ground and they’re not close to as effective as they could be now, just think about how many people are in your community alone. And your community is elite level, right? Your community is like literally the best of the best because they’re actually trying to work on the business. And we would still say, gosh, that percentage is incredibly low. And to me, this has to be the thing that stops. And let me just give you one example. One of my favorite questions that I love to test an agency, and this is a sales question 101. But it’s also, it could come from a client question. There’s this exercise that we teach called the pushback pivot. Basically it is, you’re constantly getting hit with friction based statements in life. And when you’re a coach, this happens in the sales process. And this, this happens when you’re, when you’re talking with the client. So a friction based statement might be, gee, I feel like you guys are so much more expensive. A friction based statement might be, you know, I don’t know if I agree with that. A friction based statement might be, I think that’s a dumb idea. Right? So these are all things that you might hear from someone. And so the problem is we all think that we have to defend in these moments. Whereas the great ones, when they practice, they take that negative thing and they pivot. All right, they pivot and they use it in their favor. So for example, if somebody ever says to you, I feel like you guys are so expensive, you take the negative word or words, which in this case is expensive or so expensive, and you just say, tell me more. So it would be so expensive. Tell me more about that. That’s it. Almost like in a happy way, someone says, I think that’s a dumb plan. Right? Dumb plan. What do you mean? That’s it? Someone says to you, I don’t think that’ll work.

Drew McLellan [00:25:49]:

Won’t work.

Marcus Sheridan [00:25:50]:

Tell me more. Now this is the thing that sounds so obvious, but I can tell you 99% don’t understand it. But once you develop just a pattern of this, you become so effective and you eliminate a lot of friction. And now you control the conversation and you can really take it where it needs to go and you can serve the client the best way, which is truly, truly acting in their best interest and challenging them when they need to be challenged.

Drew McLellan [00:26:20]:

Yeah, totally agree. I want to continue this thread, but we need to take a quick break. Let’s come back and then let’s come back and talk a little bit about this idea of the self service. So let’s say we start to get good, we start to do better communications. And by the way, no agency likes to role play even though it is such a critical tool. Right. We feel stupid. Fill in the blanks. We don’t like to do it, but it is the practice we need to have so that we can actually be effective with clients. But when we come back, let’s talk a little bit about sort of coming out of that and this idea of thinking about self service in this world of AI that we’re in today. So we’ll be right back. Hey everybody, thanks for listening today. Before I get back to the interview, I just want to remind you that we are always offering some really amazing workshops and you can see the whole [email protected] on the navigation head to how we help. Scroll down and you’ll see workshops and you can see the whole list there with descriptions of each workshop. They are all in Denver and we’ve got them throughout the year for agency owners, account Execs, agency leaders, CFOs. We have a little something for everybody. No matter what it is that you’re struggling with, people, new business, money, all of those things we’ve got covered. So check them out and come join us. All right, let’s get back to the show. All right. We are back with Marcus Sheridan. We’re talking about, we started talking about his books and of course we very quickly pivoted to a world he knows incredibly well, both because he owns one and because he works with many of them. Sort of the evolution of agencies. And if you are a regular listener, you know that he is singing my song right now in terms of how we have to think differently and how cannot be about the deliverables anymore. It has to be about the strategy. We have to be that strategic partner. And you know, we all want strategic partners that push us to think differently that that don’t just agree with everything we say that is not about finding a better strategy. So that’s what we were talking about before the break. Now I just want to pivot a little bit to something you said earlier which is one of the other things that you believe agencies have to think about is this idea of helping their clients think from a self service perspective. So talk a little bit more about that.

Marcus Sheridan [00:28:37]:

Yeah, it’s a megatrend and I’m deeply invested in it started with a trend that Gartner sent me which was 75% of all buyers today say they would prefer to have a seller free sales experience. 75% and, and there’s other trend lines along the same 60% of people that use self service checkout at like grocery stores, Drew, they use it because it means they don’t have to talk to someone.

Drew McLellan [00:29:03]:

Isn’t that crazy?

Marcus Sheridan [00:29:04]:

It’s wild. So what’s happening here? What’s happening is people just don’t want to talk to people until they’re ready to talk to people. And I’m not saying this is a good trend, by the way. I don’t like it, but I’m accepting it for what it is. I’m not going to change these things. So I’m constantly in a state of, let’s analyze it. So if buyers don’t want to talk to a salesperson, what do we do? Well, what they want is they want to feel like they’re in control until they are ready to talk to a salesperson, until they’re ready by feeling comfortable, confident. And I’m not going to make a mistake, I’m not going to be taken advantage of. Now the key way to do this, and I talk a ton about this in Endless customers, the book is through self service tools. And there’s five fundamental self service tools that you want to help your clients develop, especially on their website. And this is the new first party data tools that exist for us today. They’re essential for that first party data. And this is the replacement for that downloadable guide that no longer works anymore and doesn’t get that first party data that you so desperately seek. And so if you’re looking to get that more top to middle of the funnel lead and you’re struggling, which is about a hundred percent of us, self service is your key. What are the different ones? Well, let me give you a few different examples. You got self selection tools. The self selection tool is any tool that gives you a recommendation. So for example, if you went to my swimming pool website, you would see that there’s a tool there that essentially says to you, are you not sure what type of swimming pool you want? You don’t know if you want concrete, fiberglass or vinyl liner and ground pool will take this tool, this quiz. It’s interactive and it will give you an unbiased recommendation. So that’s a very, very powerful tool. It works extremely well and everyone should have that and you should be building those for your clients. That’s one example. Another one, self scheduling tools. Now this is a really cool story, Drew. I think you’ll appreciate this because it’s, it’s a mind bender once you realize how effective it is. And that is, I’ve seen agencies help their clients create self scheduling for like, you know, if someone wants to speak to a rep, this way they don’t have to talk to a rep, but they can just schedule time through some tool on the site. Now that in and of itself isn’t extraordinary. But here’s where it gets extraordinary. And we’ve done this with a bunch of clients and that is self scheduling with a rep and choosing which rep they work with. This is where it gets really fascinating when we found through our studies when someone, let’s say a, you know, a prospect, homeowner, whatever you want to call it, is able to choose which rep they work with, closing rates double.

Drew McLellan [00:31:38]:

Wow.

Marcus Sheridan [00:31:38]:

And the reason for this is some cost fallacy. Because it’s interactive and because it’s an investment of their time and they are the ones that chose, they try to find a reason for it to work.

Drew McLellan [00:31:50]:

Right.

Marcus Sheridan [00:31:50]:

So an example, let’s say you’re working with a real estate agency. Or let’s say you want to sell your home and you go to a real estate agency’s website and they’ve got seven agents. But you see the seven agents, you get to read the BIOS about each one, you maybe get to watch a video about each one of the agents and then you get to choose which agent you want to reach out to. You. Now is that a better UX than just reaching out to an agency and saying I want to talk to one of your realtors? Of course it is. Anybody would choose that any day of the week. You can see why closing rates would go up. Now we’ve seen this in B2B, we’ve seen in B2C. It works. Drew, almost nobody’s doing it. I can tell you right now, most of your agencies aren’t, you know, like that are out there. They are not doing this. Now the third, third one that I want to mention, this is the most powerful by far. And if anybody knows, they ask, you answer. And now endless customers. This should be no surprise, which is the power of pricing estimators. Oh my literal goodness. Pricing estimators are the future of all service based businesses, many manufacturers and other businesses too. I’m seeing it every single day. And the reason why I’ve got extraordinary data on this now is because I started a company called Price Guide. And Price Guide allows organizations or agencies to quickly, easily cost effectively build pricing estimators with the help of AI. Now what’s so amazing about this that I found is whenever someone puts a pricing estimator on their homepage and they use the phrase get instant estimate, that’s the key phrase, that’s the power phrase, the magic phrase.

Drew McLellan [00:33:20]:

Drew, right?

Marcus Sheridan [00:33:20]:

Get instant estimate. And I’ve had agencies actually use this tool and have incredible like, whoa, this is actually working, Marcus. I know it’s working. I know it works every single time. And so generally, there’s a 3 to 500% increase in leads. 3 to 500%. Now, here’s where this is a big deal for agencies because so often we meet with the prospect, a client, we have a particular service that we’re going to offer, and we tell them, now this is really going to take three to six months to get a lot of momentum. Yet after 30 days, what does a client oftentimes say to you or 60 days? They say, hey, I know you said it was going to take a little while, but, you know, when are we going to start to see some action? So the whole key to eliminating churn, especially in the first year of an agency, is getting a big initial win. How do you get a big initial win? Easiest way that you can get a big initial win right now as an agency, and I’m telling you it’s not close to, is by installing a pricing estimator for your clients. Because what they’re gonna see the second it goes up is now an explosion again, 3 to 500%. They’re gonna be blown away. They’re gonna become addicted to those leads. Now, the way we created Price Guide is we’ve got a whole white labeling system for agencies. So we have agencies now that what they’ll do is they’ll get Price Guide, which, by the way, the average cost for price guys, like, for an agency is usually between 16 to $18 a month per client. Now, with that, you can have a maintenance fee for them, you can have a setup fee for them. And so let’s say hypothetically, you want to charge $2,500 for a setup fee, and then you want to charge $50 a month. It’s white labeled under you. And now you’re the one that they’re getting it through. They’re not getting it through Price Guide. This is where it’s so powerful, right?

Drew McLellan [00:35:06]:

It’s the subscription model. Right?

Marcus Sheridan [00:35:08]:

It’s beautiful. And so you can become a SaaS company by white labeling it out. And I’ve had now like a slew of agencies. And I didn’t realize when I started, I thought it was going to be mainly a business to end business, but it’s actually a B2B2B company, because really. Or a B to A, which is business to agency. To business. And it’s extraordinary. These agencies are telling you, Marcus, man, this is really making a huge difference with that initial win, which is the big promise of it. And of course you get a lot more passive revenue. Point though being is even if you don’t use a tool like Price Guide, I don’t care what it is, which by the way, you can build your own too. At Impact, we build our own. But the issue with that is you’re usually charging somewhere between 15 to 25,000 for those. Right. Because they’re custom built. And those are the two options. I think you might want to consider offering both because there’s going to be some customers that you have that might need a super customized estimator. But I just gotta stress this, every service based business especially is gonna have an estimator on their website within the next five years. It’s not a quote tool. There’s a difference folks. A quote’s quote, an estimate’s an estimate. And so the order that it goes in is estimate first, quote second, and then the actual contract third. That’s, that’s, that’s the order. The first question every single person has when they enter the buying journey and they know they have a problem, a need, an issue, a worry is roughly how much is this going to cost?

Drew McLellan [00:36:39]:

Right.

Marcus Sheridan [00:36:39]:

That is the first question everyone has. You don’t have to answer it exactly, but you do have to address it, generically speaking, enough to make the person say, okay, I’m in the game, I trust you and let’s play. And that’s the power of these.

Drew McLellan [00:36:52]:

Or wow, that’s a lot more expensive than I thought. So I’m going to self select out. That’s right. And then I don’t waste my time talking to you. Right, right.

Marcus Sheridan [00:37:00]:

Everybody wins. Everybody wins. That’s what’s powerful about this. And there’s all these different ways anyway, interactive tools like this, self service tools, this is the future. And I think agencies should have this as a major part of their service offering, primarily as this is the whole like if you do one of these every six months for your clients, one you could do every six months if you really understand how to do them, especially the five that we talk about. Endless customers, you’re going to be bringing so much value. I don’t care if that, you know, SEO campaign of yours is working or not, they’re going to still love you because you’re making a huge difference in their bottom line and they’re getting way more leads.

Drew McLellan [00:37:38]:

Well, and you know we talk a lot about Today, a lot of our clients are under incredible pressure to deliver results to the C suite, to the board of directors, to whoever, their boss or their owner of the business, regardless. And it has to be countable. Like they have to be able to say, look, we gave the agency a dollar and we got $5 worth sales, whatever it is. And what you’re talking about with these self service tools is people self select in. And I can count how many people went through whatever that process is, which gives me proof as an agency, look, client, here’s the value. And now I’m helping you merchandise the value of the agency up through the food chain inside your organization. Because it’s not always our client who’s like, you got to fire the agency. They’re getting pressure from somewhere in the organization to bigger, better, faster. And we need to give our clients evidence that we are delivering bigger, better, faster. To your point of being able to sort of hang in there, especially for that first year, which is so expensive for us as agencies. Right Boy. But if we can get to year two, three, four, five and we get to know them deeper and deeper and deeper, now all of a sudden the value proposition is great on both sides of the equation.

Marcus Sheridan [00:38:53]:

One, one other thing I didn’t mention about this, Drew, you made me think of it. I had actually had a pool company come to us a couple years ago and they said our next 90 days is critical because it was like we’re entering April, May and June. They were like, our next nine days is huge. We’ve got to win these because we had 75% of our sales in the next 90 days. How can you help us? Could they ask you answer be the answer here? I’m like, they ask you answer is your long term answer, but it’s not your answer for the next 90 days.

Drew McLellan [00:39:19]:

Right?

Marcus Sheridan [00:39:19]:

I said, and I looked at their site, I said, oh, okay, here’s what you need to do. You need to put a pricing estimator on your website. And they said, man, I just don’t know if we can do that because nobody’s ever done that for a concrete pool company here in Arizona. I said, trust me, if you do this, it’s going to revolutionize your business anyway. Make a long story short, the previous year, that May they got like 200,000, something SQLs. The May that they had, the pricing estimator they got roughly, I think it was like 700 and something. And it led to millions of dollars in additional revenue. I’m only sharing this because we didn’t have an agreement with them long term. We just did this as our first project with them.

Drew McLellan [00:39:57]:

Right.

Marcus Sheridan [00:39:58]:

It was like a little piece of the pie.

Drew McLellan [00:39:59]:

Yeah.

Marcus Sheridan [00:40:00]:

And they tasted that piece of the pie and as soon as they tasted it, they said, I want to work with you all a long time. So we immediately signed a year long contract which was, you know, multiple six figures. And it was a completely different game at that point. Right. And so, you know, oftentimes, and I’ve always believed, I’ve been a big believer too for agencies that starting with a workshop is oftentimes a much smarter play than trying to get that 6 or 12 month engagement signed. Because, you know, Drew, if somebody is with you for a full day, they are so likely to say, okay, this is worth it now, because they see the full vision. You get buy in from everybody on the team, et cetera. And it’s much easier to sell a workshop than it is to sell $150,000 agreement.

Drew McLellan [00:40:44]:

Right.

Marcus Sheridan [00:40:45]:

And it’s the same thing with pricing estimators or with self service tools. It’s much easier to sell a tool. In this case, let’s say you wanted to sell it for whatever, you could sell it for whatever you wanted to. $2,500. And they’re like, $2,500, that’s all I gotta spend to get, you know, this, this and that. And now all of a sudden they get your guidance on it. I get a huge win, and they’re like, okay, what else can you do for me? Because the trust level is so high. So use this as a gateway drug. And then it’s incredible how it can lead to additional services. And now you can get those margins that you want because the trust factor is so high.

Drew McLellan [00:41:19]:

Well, and at the end of the day, that’s the one thing that has never changed about our business. Right. And one of the things AI brings is a sense of mistrust or is this real? Or whatever. And you add that into pricing, transparency and all the other things that our industry struggles to sort of combat in terms of trust. And at the end of the day, that’s the commodity we have to get to with our clients and if we’re going to keep them long term. And that’s been true for as long as I’ve been in the business, which has been a long time. And you know, even in the Mad Men days and back before I was around, if they don’t trust us, then they’re always looking over their shoulder and wondering, is this real? Am I safe? Are they worried about me protecting my job? Are they going to make me look like a fool or a hero? But when they trust us now, all of a sudden we can do our best work and we can build that long term relationship that is so vital to an agency’s profitability. When we have a lot of churn of our clients, as I know you know, we can’t make money, and, you know, as employees get more expensive and benefits get more expensive and all the other crazy things that we’re dealing with today, we have to keep our clients longer.

Marcus Sheridan [00:42:37]:

Oh, man. Boy, I think you’re just nailing it. And I know that this is probably resonating with a lot of people right now. Look, a lot of the folks that are listening to this right now, despite your best efforts, Drew, they’re still too worried about being liked by their client than being trusted and respected by their client. The goal is not to be liked. The goal is to be trusted. Trust comes through that respect from the work that you’ve done, from them, the questions you’ve asked them, how you’ve pushed them, how you’ve made them uncomfortable, how you’ve helped them to see change, and how you help them to not shoot themselves in the foot. Right, because they’re getting ready to make some stupid decisions. That’s where that comes from. But you’ve got to have a strong core, got to have a team that pushes back, and you can’t do it like it’s been done for the last 20 plus years. But, yeah, I really think I’m feeling what you’re. What you’re saying. In fact, I think you and I could speak on this for like three hours. Hopefully this isn’t our last conversation because.

Drew McLellan [00:43:41]:

Agreed.

Marcus Sheridan [00:43:41]:

We’re both pretty deeply passionate about this.

Drew McLellan [00:43:44]:

Yeah, I was just gonna say I. I hate that the hour is coming to an end because I feel like we have barely scratched the surface. So we will for sure have you come back. But I guess on that note, until our next conversation, what’s the one thing you want agency owners to be thinking about right now? You know, it’s. You and I are recording this at the very tail end of May 2025. We have crazy things happening here in the US and around the world. What do they have to be thinking about right now to have a successful, profitable 2025? They have six months left.

Marcus Sheridan [00:44:19]:

I think it goes back to the roots of our conversation here, which is, are you strategically coaching or are you just doing what they’re asking you to do?

Drew McLellan [00:44:31]:

Yeah.

Marcus Sheridan [00:44:32]:

And if you’re not, it is time to completely rethink revamp, retrain, retool. You can do this. You can absolutely do this. And I hope those that are listening believe in themselves enough to do it. There is a place for agencies in the future. But remember, if you don’t fall within some of those categories of strategic coaching plus AI training, and remember, every single person, company you talk to, for the most part right now, 99 out of a hundred don’t know AI like you do. You don’t have to be a world class expert. You just have to know enough to help them out and they will appreciate it. Remember, though, it’s dumb not to dumb it down. So simplify the way you communicate. Teach in a way that everybody understands.

Drew McLellan [00:45:19]:

Yeah.

Marcus Sheridan [00:45:19]:

You know, there’s a reason why that phrase they ask you answer really worked. Because I was like, okay, so what you’re saying is they have a question, I just need to answer it. Yes, got it.

Drew McLellan [00:45:29]:

Right.

Marcus Sheridan [00:45:29]:

There’s, there’s a lot of power in that, Drew. And if you want to be very, very effective as an agency. Can’t speak like a marketer, got to speak like a business owner.

Drew McLellan [00:45:39]:

Yep.

Marcus Sheridan [00:45:39]:

And you got to speak their language. If you do that, I think you win.

Drew McLellan [00:45:43]:

Yeah. This has been such a good conversation, but like I said, I feel like we are just barely scratching the surface. So we will definitely have you back. Marcus, if people want to learn more about the coaching that you guys do for agencies, the work you do with agencies, I know they can find the book everywhere. What’s the best way for them to learn more about the work you do and to tap into that?

Marcus Sheridan [00:46:05]:

Yeah, well, connect with me on LinkedIn. I’d say that’s number one. Check out price Guide. We’ve got an extraordinary agency program I think you’re going to love. So Price Guide, AI and then question first. Group has just. We just got some incredible coaching. You may hate role plays today, but one call, we offer a service where we do one training for free. And if it doesn’t completely change your life, then we walk away from each other. And people just love it. And they’re like, wow, how do I do that? I want more of that in my life, in my agency’s life, for my account managers, et cetera. And of course, make sure you get the book. It would mean a lot to me if you get it, if you leave a review. You know, I hope you teach it to your clients. You don’t need to give me credit. I don’t care. But I just want you to teach it to the world because that’s why I wrote it, so the world would.

Drew McLellan [00:46:49]:

Have it been awesome. This has been a really lovely, invigorating conversation. Thank you for. Thanks for being on the show and sharing your wisdom and being so passionate about the work that you do. I believe at the end of the day, the things we’re passionate about are contagious, and I think that’s why your work has been so contagious. So thank you.

Marcus Sheridan [00:47:07]:

Thank you, Drew.

Drew McLellan [00:47:08]:

All right, kids, this wraps up the episode. Lots of to dos. So I suspect while you were listening, you were already ordering the book, which was a wise call on your part, I think. Why wouldn’t you take advantage of the free offer? That would be silly on your part. So we will make sure that we have links in the show notes for you to be able to do that. But bigger, more important is I hope we’ve gotten into your heads a little bit and that we are doing, in essence, what we are asking you to do, which is we’re getting you to ask yourself harder questions, like, am I on the right path? Could we do this better? How could we be more valuable? Where do we not build trust as quickly as we could? What. What opportunities are we leaving on the table? Perhaps because we’re rushing to the sale of the things rather than really wanting to be that strategic partner for our clients. So lots of food for thought here in this episode. Do not let this be an episode you just listened to and go, yeah, that was interesting. Don’t. That’s wasteful. Don’t do that. I want you to really think about how do you. How do you march into the rest of 2025 with the Eye on the prize, which is surviving this crazy year that we’re in the middle of, which, by the way, we are always in a crazy year. This is not this. This particular crazy is a little different, but there’s always crazy. That was my keynote at the summit two weeks ago, was, we are in a world of perpetual uncertainty and crazy, and we can actually take advantage of that if we are the ones that help guide people through it. So with all of that said, put this episode to work. Do the work, do the thinking, have the conversations, take advantage of what Marcus has been talking about so that we can move into 2026 strong, profitable, and ready to really change the world of how agencies are seen and how we serve our clients. All right, that’s your homework. All right, before I let you go, huge shout out and thank you to our friends at White Label iq. As you know, they are the presenting sponsor of the podcast. They’ve been with us for many, many years. They are a white label company that comes alongside agencies and does white label design, dev and ppc. So when you’re looking to add to your team, these are folks who really understand the agency business. Why? Because they were born from an agency. So they get your pricing, they get how you want to keep clients happy and they are lovely, lovely human beings. So white labeliq.comami will get you right to their page where they’ll tell you how they are doing special things for podcast listeners. Please make sure you tell them thank you when you talk to them because we are grateful for them. All right, I will be back next week, hopefully asking hard questions and getting you to think a little differently about your business. I hope you will be back with us then too. Thanks for listening. That’s all for this episode of AMI’s Build a Better Agency podcast.