Episode 486
Agency book writing and publishing can seem like a daunting mountain to climb. But with the right people to help you through the process, it can be one of the best things you can do to uplevel your thought leadership efforts.
That’s why this week, I invited Shadley Grei, an agency book publishing expert and newer member of AMI, onto the show to share how agency owners can start thinking about writing their first (or next) book with the help of a ghostwriter. He shares how his agency helps other agency owners discover if their ideas are ready to become a full-fledged book, and how to start compiling it all to collaborate with a ghostwriter.
As the visionaries of the agency, we need to be always looking for the new, unspoken angles of things in the work we do, and Shadley helps agency owners share their perspectives without the pressure of having to do it alone.
If you think you might be ready to finally get your idea or vision out in writing in 2025, this episode has all the info you need to start turning that idea into reality.
A big thank you to our podcast’s presenting sponsor, White Label IQ. They’re an amazing resource for agencies who want to outsource their design, dev, or PPC work at wholesale prices. Check out their special offer (10 free hours!) for podcast listeners here.
What You Will Learn in This Episode:
- How a ghostwriter can be a partner in helping you find unseen angles for your book
- How to get a seat at the table and show clients you’re capable of more
- What producing a book can do for the agency and agency owner
- How and why Shadley got interested in starting his own publishing company
- The fun of partnering with thought leaders to help their ideas come to life
- Using a ghostwriter isn’t cheating — it’s a strategy
- 3 ways to know if you’re ready to write a book
- Getting over fear and owning your expertise
“A lot of people are writing about what they think the world wants to hear or what they think they should be writing about instead of, what do I want to say? What is new and interesting; how do I challenge the norm?” - Shadley Grei Share on X
“Marketing people think differently than the general public. They think beyond the book. They question, is it a blog series or is it an educational piece, or is it a website?” - Shadley Grei Share on X
“After getting involved in ghostwriting the last few years, I realized I want to do this for other people. I have this crazy experience, knowledge, and passion for these things; I want to help writers take their books to new levels.” - Shadley Grei Share on X
“It's just the most exciting thing to be able to help people turn their ideas into action.” - Shadley Grei Share on X
“I think it can be exciting for agency owners to get in a room with other people who allow them to say the stupid thing out loud that's maybe not stupid at all.” - @Shadley Grei Share on X
Ways to contact Shadley:
- Grei Matter for consulting: https://greimatter.com/
- Kingbird Press for publishing: https://kingbirdpress.com/
- LinkedIn Personal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shadleygrei/
- Special Offer for AMI Members: https://www.kingbirdpress.com/ami
- shadley@agencymanagementinstitute.com
- shadley@greimatter.com
Resources:
- Your 2025 Book Writing Action Plan
- BaBA Summit May 19-21, 2025: https://agencymanagementinstitute.com/babasummit/
- Book: Sell With Authority
- AMI Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/agencymanagementinstitute
- AMI Preferred Partners: https://agencymanagementinstitute.com/ami-preferred-partners/
- Agency Edge Research Series: https://agencymanagementinstitute.com/agency-tools/agency-edge-research-series/
- Upcoming workshops: https://agencymanagementinstitute.com/advertising-agency-training/workshop-calendar/
- Weekly Newsletter: https://agencymanagementinstitute.com/newsletter-sign-up-form/
- Agency Coaching and Consulting: https://agencymanagementinstitute.com/advertising-agency-consulting/agency-coaching-consulting/
Hey, everybody. Drew here. You know, we are always looking for more ways to be helpful and meet you wherever you’re at to help you grow your agency. It’s one of the reasons why we’ve produced this podcast for so long, and I’m super grateful that you listen as often as you do. However, there are some topics that are better suited for quick, hyper-focused answers in under 10 minutes. That’s where our YouTube channel really comes in. For quick doses of inspiration, best practices, tips and tricks, head over to youtube.com/the at sign Agency Management institute. Again, that’s youtube.com/the at sign or symbol.
And then Agency Management Institute, all one word. Subscribe and search the existing video database for all sorts of actionable topics that you can implement in your shop today. Alright, let’s get to the show.
Running an agency can be a lonely proposition, but it doesn’t have to be. We can learn how to be better faster if we learn together. Welcome to Agency Management Institute’s Build a Better Agency Podcast presented by White Label IQ. Tune in every week for insights on how small to mid-size agencies are surviving and thriving in today’s market with 25 plus years of experience as both an agency owner and agency consultant, please welcome your host, Drew McLellan.
Hey everybody. Drew McLellan here with Agency Management Institute, back with another episode of Build a Better Agency. You know, one of the things I love about owning a business is that we get to choose who we work with as business partners. Obviously, I’m choosing to work with Danielle, my wife, in the business as employees. We have some employees that have been with us for 20 some years as clients. We get to choose who we surround ourselves with, and today’s guest is someone that I have chosen to surround myself with for many, many years. So, interestingly, Shadley, Grei and I have known each other for over 20 years, as you’re gonna hear when we start talking about sort of our history.
He was an employee of mine many, many years ago back in my agency, and we’ve just stayed friends. And then I’ve hired him on and off for all these special projects and he’s come on board at a MI to do some really interesting things around partnerships and thought leadership. And he’s gonna be kicking off a new educational series that we’re super excited to tell you about. But he also has an interesting other part of his professional life, which is a publishing company where he helps people much like you write and publish books. He’s actually worked with several a MI agency owners to get their books on the shelves he has worked with. He’s working with Danielle and I on our latest book, which is gonna be coming out soon.
So he’s a lovely human being, but he’s also one of the biggest thinkers that I’ve ever met. I love talking to him as a thinking partner because he always bends and twists and pulls on ideas that I have and makes them different and better and bigger. So really an interesting guy. I’m excited for you to get to know him better in this episode. And you’re gonna see him at a lot of a MI events and throughout this educational offering that he’s gonna tell you a little bit about. So buckle up because Chad’s gonna get you to think differently. Chad’s gonna get you to think bigger. Chad’s gonna get you to think what if, or is that possible, and why not?
That’s one of the things I love about him. His attitude is why not? Why not try it? Why not experiment with it? Why not see if that’s possible? I don’t think we have enough. Why not people in our life? And so I think you’re gonna enjoy having him inside the a MI ecosystem inside the A MI community and as part of what we can offer you as partners. So without further ado, let me introduce you to Chadley Chadley, welcome to the podcast.
Hello. It’s great to see you.
You as well. So you and I have a long history together, which a lot of people probably wouldn’t realize unless we sort of reveal it. So I thought this would be an interesting way to sort of kick off our conversation. So I don’t remember actually how long ago it was, and maybe we don’t have to use years ’cause it just makes us sound old. But way back in the day, you were an employee at my agency, gosh, quite a while ago, and then after you were with us for several years, you left to make your fortune in LA and eventually found your way back to us working together. But now at a MI. And so let’s talk a little bit about the role that you play today at a MI and how folks who are listening are gonna probably be getting to know you a little better.
Okay, fantastic. Yeah, so we’ve, going back to what you were previously saying, we have known each other for quite a while. I real, I remember recently, but I actually emailed you even before I came to work with you. Like a, I was moving back from LA the first time and yeah, we had an email exchange and then when I came back you were hiring and I, I just knew it’s where I had to be. ’cause I just loved you guys immediately and it was in such a great time with you and the entire team. And then you and I have just stayed friends as I’ve been traveling the country, spending a lot of time in la I even gave you a tour of the Disney lot when you and the group came along.
Yeah, that was awesome.
That was awesome. And then at the beginning of the pandemic, I came back to Des Moines to take care of my mom. And as I transitioned out of my corporate America job, you helped me find my first ghostwriting gig. And so through that, that kind of set off the path I’ve been on for the last five years. And we’ve just continued to have conversations about projects and different things and yep. A couple months ago you asked me if I wanted to come on board as a more formal team member. And so it joined with a focus on partnerships and strategy as we move into the new year and some growth ideas for the company.
And now that’s what I’m focusing on right now.
Yeah. So I, you know, I think as we, as a MI evolved, I really needed somebody to be a thinking partner for me in terms of, you know, helping Danielle and I imagine what was possible in the business, and also to pursue some of the partnerships that we just frankly don’t have the time to invest in getting to know everybody and figuring out if they’re a good fit for am I audiences. And because you’ve cultivated a lot of partnerships and you’ve done a lot of sort of that bigger strategic idea thinking, and that’s, I think, even back in the day when we were at the agency together, you know, that was one of the things you brought to the party. It just made perfect sense. And so some folks probably met you at the summit last May, but they’re gonna get to see a lot more of you in 2025.
So talk a little bit about the webinar series that you’re kicking off in February for everybody.
Yeah, it’s something I’m really excited about. We’re starting this new webinar series that is very focused on actionable tools. It’s different from the podcast in that it feels more like you have to take notes or you have to be like really invested in the conversation. You, it’s also live, so it’ll be more interactive, there’ll be more, it has more of a q and a element to it. It has more for sure. You’re not understanding something. It’s very much focused on helping agencies think differently or level up or learn some little new tool that can help them or their clients in some new or interesting way. There’s so many fascinating things going on in the world right now as far as opportunities and tools, especially in the AI space that are just like, you know, we’re really able to explore a lot of things, even for really small teams being able to do larger things that, you know, previously they may not have had the bandwidth for and now they can.
So it’s, it’s gonna be exciting to see the kinds of people that we bring in and what we can talk about and what we can learn together. And I’m really excited to be asked to kick it off and lead it.
Yeah, you know, this is something that I’ve wanted to do for a couple years and just for everybody, it’s gonna be the first and third Tuesday of every month. So twice a month at 11 o’clock Mountain. And you know, for those of you that know me, you know that with Danielle’s and my travel schedule, there’s just no freaking way I could commit to something that frequent and that consistent in terms of time. And so it made perfect sense for us to invite Shaley to host that because again, he’s creating these partnerships and you’re gonna see a mix of people who are some familiar faces, the Pam Slims of the world that you all are very familiar with, Robert Rose, folks like that, but also some fresh faces and some new companies and some new technologies that we are exploring and learning more about and wanna learn about together with you.
And I just couldn’t be in all the places at once. So it’s, Chad is a great extension of my desire to teach and learn, and he’s able to do it on a more consistent basis. So we’re super excited about it and we’ll be talking about it in the newsletter. We’ll be talking about it in the Facebook group. We’re gonna kick it off the first week of February, so by the time you hear this, it’ll be coming up pretty quick probably. And so you can just consistently get on your calendar that first and third Tuesday of every month and know that whoever the guest is, they’re gonna be helping you explore something new. But in a really practical take action way, not in a sort of philosophical way, it’s not that kind of a webinar series.
It’s really trying to get you access to new things you can bring to clients or to your internal processes to make things even better. So we’re super excited about that. Yeah,
It’s gonna be very cool. Excited to see how it evolves.
Yeah. You know, and I think one of the, a couple of the other things that you’re working on is, you know, you are, you are looking for new places for us to plug a MI into to cre bring even more diversity to the a MI community, age, race, all of those things. You know, we know that there are lots of agency owners of all kinds of different backgrounds, and we wanna make sure that we’re serving all of them. And so you and I are working together on some of those partnerships as well. And so I, the bottom line is everybody’s gonna be seeing quite a bit of you over the course of the next year. You’ll be at the summit again this year. And so hopefully you’ll get to be able to, you know, spend more time with agency owners and leaders and, and be a thinking partner for them as well as we have been.
So it just feels like a great extension of the team. So we’re, we’re glad to have you on board.
Sure. And it was, it was a ton of fun last year to be introduced. I’ve known, I’ve been around the a MI community for a few years, just through various things and knowing a bunch of people and ghost writing and working with some people on some book projects the last year was just a really exciting introduction to the whole world of the, not just a MI but the, the Baba community in that entire, so it was an adventure of course last year, but it was just fantastic. I’m excited to get more involved.
So let’s talk a little bit about, actually, so you’ve ghostwritten several books for MI members who have wanted a, wanted a writing partner. They had the idea for a book and they wanted somebody to help them sort of get it down on paper and craft it. So talk a little bit about your work sort of in that realm, because I think it leads into the bigger conversation about yes, you’re working with a MI, but it’s not a full-time gig for you because you also have your own company. So let’s, let’s talk a little bit about some of the work you’ve done with agency owners already that, you know, obviously not specifics, but the kind of work you’ve been doing with them. And then that’ll lead us right into the conversation about what else you’re up to.
Yeah, I think what’s, maybe there’s a misunderstanding about what ghost writing is. I think a lot of people think, or, I mean, this actually is one path of it where you are like, appears a topic for book writing, I’m gonna put my name on it and pay you and no one’s gonna know that you ever existed. Sure. But I’m literally just giving you the tagline and then you’re gonna write it and bring me back a finished book. Right? I think that is the general perception of what ghost writing is. And it is, like I said, it can be that, but more times than not, it’s more of a collaboration. So the different ways every project is done in a different way or has a different kind of life behind it.
For example, I’ve worked with people that brought me literally hundreds of pages of PDFs from presentations they’ve done. And they just wanted, this is all of our content, help me turn that into a book. Or I’ve had someone brought me eight hours of recorded audio on the book topic that they had to spend brainstorming with someone else that was like, okay, now let’s think about the book. And so that became really just a very audio driven, here’s all these audio notes of things. I’d just been talking about the book for literally eight hours. And then more recently it was literally a, I just have the idea for a book, but that became more of a co-writing or coaching.
As that project came together, it was a lot of conversation about what the book was and what it would represent and who it was speaking to and what each piece was. And that was incredibly collaborative. And then I’ve done things like just a series of interviews and then going, now is this based on that interview? Is this where you want the chapter to go? And so, you know, it’s, it has evolved into something that is a much more collaborative team effort in order to really ensure that the author’s voice comes through and that it’s not me writing with their name on it, I want it to sound like them, and I want it to have their spin on it and to make sure that they have their take on the topic.
Well, I think again, a big part of what you bring to that, regardless of how involved you are in the actual creation of the book, is that thinking partner. Like the, oh, you have all these parts and pieces, I see this trend through those pieces. Or are you trying to say, here’s a, here’s a thread that runs through them. Is this what you’re trying to say? Or if the, if the agency owner or client, if it’s not an agency owner, is like, here’s what I wanna express, you’re able to go, oh, well you here’s part of it over here and here’s part of it over here. I think sometimes we’re so close to it as the author that we can’t really see the bigger picture or how all the parts and pieces, how they fit together.
And I think one of the things that in any project that we’ve done together and we’ve done plenty, is your perspective always helps me clarify my own perspective.
And I think part of that is uncovering the true story of what they want to talk about. I think a lot of people are writing for what they think the world wants to hear, what they think they should be writing about. We need another, you know, Brene Brown, we need another, right. Whoever it might be, instead of, what is my, what do I want to say? What do I have to say that is new and interesting, and how do I challenge the norm and what can I bring to the table that doesn’t just feel like, oh, it’s another book on that topic. It’s like, oh, that’s really, that’s an interesting take on what I thought I understood or that challenges.
And with the book I was talking about where it was eight hours of audio, we ended up using maybe a third of that in the final book because through those conversations and as I went through it, it was like, I feel like you actually wanna be talking about this. Let’s cut out all of this and this is your book. And Right. That was eyeopening for the client. I’ve had that happen more than once as far as really discovering like, oh, I thought this is what I wanted to write about, but in fact, this is what, this is what I’m passionate about. This is what I wanna really dive into.
Yeah. Yeah. So all of that being said, and we’ll take a quick break and then we’ll kind of get into this. So, so you are part of the A MI team, but you also have your own publishing company with the purpose of doing approaching book publishing from that perspective, which is you’re a business leader or a thought leader, you have something interesting to say, let me help you figure out how to say it in a way that is authentically you unique. Right? And all of that. So let’s take a quick break and let’s talk a little bit about sort of your perspective of producing a book and what that can do for a business owner, an agency owner, and sort of how you approach that work.
Yeah, that’s great.
All right. We’ll be right back. Hey everybody, thanks for listening today. Before I get back to the interview, I just wanna remind you that we are always offering some really amazing workshops. And you can see the whole schedule@agencymanagementinstitute.com, on the navigation head to how we help scroll down. And you’ll see workshops and you can see the whole list there with descriptions of each workshop. They are all in Denver and we’ve got them throughout the year for agency owners, account execs, agency leaders, CFOs. We have a little something for everybody no matter what it is that you’re struggling with, people, new business, money, all of those things we’ve got covered.
So check him out and come join us. All right. Let’s get back to the show. Alright. We are back with Shadley Grei and we were talking about his role at a MI and then when he is not doing a MI work, he is running his own publishing company and has a very unique perspective in sort of how to help agency owners sort of capture their thought leadership, capture their ideas, and then produce a book that serves them and their business as well. So talk a little bit about, I I, I mean the world has a million publishing companies, so why another one? Why yours? What’s different?
What inspired the decision to launch my own publishing company was my work with these ghostwriting clients. So many of them are first time authors and they didn’t understand what the path forward after the book was finished looked like. Especially in today’s market. It’s incredibly confusing. And it’s not just the book is done now.
Right.
Hand it to someone to do it
Even.
Yeah. Even if you’re with one of the big five, they still expect you to have your following. They still expect you, I mean, they really, well they won’t even consider your book unless you have all kinds of content and you
Know, yeah. A certain number of LinkedIn followers and you know, Twitter followers and all of that. Yep.
Yeah, there’s a lot of that. And then on the flip side, for a long time it was either that or self-publishing, which felt like he went to Kinko’s back in the day and and to team friends
Got the coil binding book, right?
Yes. And then several years ago things started evolving into this new space, which is the hybrid publishing space, which is what my company is. And it’s a much more collaborative relationship between the author and the publishing company. The thing that is nice about hybrid is that you have much bigger stake in the royalties. You can have as much as, well, I mean, with the big five, you sometimes get less than 5% Right.
Of the
Royalties.
Well, and first you have to earn your advance back before you get anything. Right. Right.
Yeah, exactly. And with a hybrid publisher, you have a bigger percentage of the royalties and you have much more control over the book, which I think is what’s most interesting to people in the a MI space or the people I have been working with, because marketing people think differently than the general public. They think beyond book, there’s a lot of like, well, is it a blog series or is there an educational piece or is it a website also? And then I know a lot of what you talk about is how to plant one seed and then build from it. Like don’t start from scratch. Every single time in a book is an extraordinary tool to have a corner that it’s like, okay, now this chapter becomes an ebook and this chapter becomes a web series.
Right. And what I offer
Offer, it’s, it’s a great cornerstone piece of content for sure. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. And what I’m able to offer is that kind of relationship, because I have a background in marketing and I have a huge understanding of how that brain works. And a lot of the hybrid options that I was seeing felt very piecemeal and very at, like, every new thing was a new cost. And I wanted to do something that felt more holistic from the start. Yeah. A lot of them do offer ghost writing as part of it, but it, it just felt like I am able, or I, because I worked with such a select number of people, it really feels like, well, these are people I wanna hang out with for the rest of my life.
Right. You know, these are the people. Like, I wanna be part of this, or always, I don’t want to just publish it and then move on to the right. Next one. I wanna build a team and a family
Or, or I don’t wanna give them a template and say, call me when you filled in the template and then Right. We’ll go to the next step. Right.
Yeah. And I wanna be there when they have ideas. Like, I have this weird idea, could we turn this into a video game? I’m like, oh, like I love all of that. I love like the, that’s the weirdest idea. Gimme one minute, we’re gonna see what that might look like. And I love that, the exploration of that. And so that’s incredibly inspiring with the publishing company to be able to be part of those conversations and to invite people to challenge the way I think. And then also for me to be able to challenge what they thought was possible.
Right.
With their own ip, which I think a lot of people aren’t aware of the IP they might be sitting on because they’re not fully clear on what it is or like,
Or what it could be. Right.
It’s like their, their workflow. Right. Or if it’s their general workflow, they don’t realize that that’s potentially ip. If no one else is doing it like that, maybe there’s a way to leverage it into a tool or something that you can generate income off of as a new revenue source. So I, I love that kind of thinking as far as what you told me of a book idea, but what is it above and beyond that? And how do we take it as far as we can? I think that’s very exciting to be able to share in that with a team or with people I believe in.
Yeah, for sure. And it, it is worth noting this was not, this was not something that you just thought of. You’ve been thinking about doing this for years, and as a, as an author yourself and a writer yourself, you’ve been thinking about doing this for a long time. So what made now the right time for you, do you think?
I think it was the, in the past it has, it had always felt like I’m gonna start a publishing company for my own work. And like the business, the business plan that I had from 2004 was all for this little collection of books that I had this idea for. That was me and a friend. And after doing this ghost writing, getting very involved in this ghost writing the last few years, it just felt like, wait, I want to do this for other people. I want to, I wanna, I have all this crazy experience and knowledge and passion for these things.
It’s like, I wanna be part of this and how I wanna help these writers take their books to new levels. And I think part of a lot of that was inspired by actually getting into the ghost writing. And I never just, I was getting paid as a ghostwriter, but then it was, I was always like, you know, have you thought about, have you thought, or how do you wanna market this? Or have you thought about taking this to this? Maybe this is a TV show. Should we talk to Conde Nast? I mean, I don’t know. Maybe. I mean, I just, right. I never just thought about the job as it was. And I always found more excitement when I stopped waiting for someone else to give me permission to do something.
And I just like, okay. I mean, working in the entertainment industry for as long as I did, there was just, you know, that’s just a industry that’s built on rejection and there’s nothing more satisfying than like, nevermind, I’m just going to produce this, play myself. Right. And I’m going to be in it, and I’m gonna take it to New York. ’cause I know they want it goodbye. You know? Right. I just, I love that. And so being able to be a partner with these thought leaders who maybe don’t want to do that when they’re sitting at home and daydreaming, but they’re, they’re so tapped out as far as their available time and they’re, it’s like, yeah, if I had another 12 hours in the day, maybe, right.
So to be able to be the person that’s like, okay, dump it all out, then you do your job and let me do mine, which is to figure out how to do this, and then I’ll check in with you as it’s moving forward. It’s just the most exciting thing to be able to help people turn their ideas into action after. Especially if it’s been, I’ve been thinking about writing a book for 25 years. I just never could find the time or the wherewithal or the focus. It’s like, okay, well let me help you. And it’s not cheating to use a ghostwriter. I think that’s right. That’s another misperception is that it’s like, well, if I’m not sitting and writing the words, all the words myself, it doesn’t count.
It’s like that’s a thousand percent not true.
Right. It’s still your, it’s still your ideas, it’s still your thoughts, it’s still your perspective. It’s, yeah. And, and again, even with a ghostwriter, it’s not that you take what they write and don’t change a thing. You, you, you massage it and sort of, you know, make it, make it your own. I I think one of the things, one of the reasons why you and I have always worked well together is that you suffer from the same flaw that I do, which is I can’t help myself, but stick my nose into all the things. Right? Like, correct. If somebody says, I wanna hire you to do this little thing, I can’t help go. But way over here, if we did this thing here that what if we did that over there and then we knit them together and it becomes a plane, and then we hire tourists.
Like I, you in our work was, we work with agencies. Oftentimes they come to us for a very specific challenge, but everything is so interwoven that you kinda have to stick your nose in all their business. And I think one of the reasons why you’re a great thinking partner is because you are, you suffer from that same disease. You can’t just say, okay, you asked me to help you organize your thoughts into chapters, and then I, and then I’m gonna be done. You’re like, while I was organizing these things into chapters, I was thinking this would make a really great miniseries and we could pitch it to so and so. And you know, I think we could get Costner to start, you know, I mean, you just, you’re, you just can’t help yourself but generate ideas, which I think for someone like an agency owner or leader, they’re wired that way too.
And so to have somebody else who thinks as out of the box as they do is exciting and challenging and, and helps them create something bigger and better than perhaps what they originally envisioned.
Yeah. And I’m certainly not someone that could ever be accused of thinking small. And it never, and it also like never occurs to me that, well, let’s try, I don’t know. I mean, I’d rather try and have it not work out than just wonder forever. And, and I’m a pull the trigger kind of person, you know, I’m very much like, well, let’s just email them and find out. Like, I don’t know. And I, I think part of that comes from having such an eclectic background and then working in the entertainment industry where that you, that’s all you have. You know, all you have is kind of your, your daring and, and your big thinking.
And you’re like, well, I wrote this and I think that Julia Roberts should read it. Okay, well then let’s see if we can get it to Julia Roberts. And it’s like, well, I think a lot of people might be like, well, that’s just never gonna happen and say, or it just might, you know. Right, right, right. So I lean into the, or it just might probably more than most people. Yeah. And so I think that that’s can be inspiring for people, that it’s their idea, but then I kind of get to take them along for the ride of their own dream. And that’s kind of exciting to be able to be part of like, no, you said this is what you want it, so we’re gonna find out if you actually do. Right. And we’re gonna find out you actually can.
Right. Because I think it just might be possible. And I think that’s unbelievably inspiring and exciting.
Well, and I think for a lot of agency owners, that’s, that’s what they need, is they need somebody kind of hearing what their idea is. And then, for lack of a better word, dragging them into it. Like, because it is so easy to go, well, I don’t have time, or I’m gonna do it next month, or I’m gonna do it while I’m on vacation, or I’m gonna fill in the blank. As opposed to somebody who’s going, well, let’s, or, or we could do it now. Let me help you get started and let’s, let’s do it now and let’s do it bit by bit and get it done. Right. And I think that’s one of the values.
And I do think agency owners had the tendency to be the biggest thinker in the room. And so when they, and they also repeatedly are told, I, we can’t, or that’s too big, or that’s never gonna happen. Or, you know, they might have these big grandiose ideas, but they get so like, you know, the, the negative voices around them, which aren’t necessarily, well, it’s usually based in protection. It’s usually I wanna protect them, and that’s a crazy idea. I don’t want them to like, deal with rejection, so let’s just not try. Right. Which is not something I am wired to do. And so I think that the other thing that I am is like, I, I dare someone to think bigger than me.
I really honestly do. Like, and you know, some of the crazy ideas that I’m just like, but what if we did, you know, going back to your idea, like, what if we just built a plane instead? Right. You wanna build a paper plane? I think we should go up back and get some soldering tools and build a real plane and push it off this hill and see what happens. Right. So like, I think that can be exciting for agency owners to get in a room with other people that allow them to say the stupid thing out loud. That’s maybe not stupid at all. Yeah. I think that’s very exciting.
Yeah, I agree. Yeah. So let’s talk quickly as we sort of wrap up the hours. So in terms of if somebody’s listening and they’re like, well, yeah, everybody wants to write a book, but my book would look like everybody else’s book. Or, you know, I don’t know that I have enough to say to fill out a book. Talk a little bit about sort of, are there some, some thought processes that listeners can take themselves through to see if, how legitimate is it that they could be an author of a book?
Yeah. I think that I’ve come up with basically three self tests that you can do that are a great indicator indicator if you’re on the right track, as far as is this a book? Or, and just to clarify, just because it’s not a book doesn’t mean it’s not anything. It could be an ebook, it could be a blog post, it could be a series of things Yeah. That are smaller and eventually turns into a book. So just because you are thinking maybe this isn’t a book right now, doesn’t mean it’s not a book ever.
Right.
But,
Or it’s not something different that still serves the same purpose. Right.
Right. Right. Yeah.
Yeah.
But if your goal is, or if you think I have this idea, I just, I kind of need to shake it out and see if this is a real book. There are three ways you can think about it. The first one is, can you talk about it without a lot of repetition for five hours. Five hours is the kind of the average of what an audio book would be. So if you think about, can I actually, could I actually do a full day seminar on this kind of, you know, if you think about a lunch break, if you think about, could I talk about Yeah. Do I have enough content?
Yeah. Could I teach to talk about
This
For that? Yeah.
For five hours without it feeling like, now to recap now to recap now to, or to say again a different way, but five. And then within that five hours, I usually start with do we have 10 chapters? Do we have 10 ideas that are connected, but clear and different? So it’s, yeah. Can do, we have 10, like 10 is a great starting point for, I I have five hours I can talk about it and I have 10 buckets. Right. Of information that have a through line.
Yeah. Yeah. I, I could break those five hours up into 10 themes that I would talk to for about 20 minutes a piece. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. Which would give you a great foundation for a book. Okay. And then the last one is really about differentiation, which obviously is a big theme of yours to talk about, but it’s what is your take on it? Or is there, is there, if there’s a similar book, how would yours be different? If you love Rene Brown’s work, what twist would you put on it that’s like, oh, well that’s an interesting, I I wouldn’t have thought about it that way. Or it feels like it might sit next to Brene Brown’s book, but it has a very clear idea that’s behind it that feels like on the cover.
It’s like, in a moment if you read the cover, you’re like, oh, and a lot of them are, can be, can be kind of thought provoking or like, oh, you know, like,
Or contrarian or Yeah, yeah.
Like let’s just say the end of ai AI is already here. If you were to see that on a book title, you’d be like, what? I mean, it’s just starting. What do you mean? It’s just like, say something, an idea doesn’t have to be that extreme in order to be, to justify a book, but you have to know that your take on it is different enough that it doesn’t feel like you’re just regurgitating someone else’s idea or you’re just talking about the same, we, well, we already have a book on that. Right. So what do, what do you have to say about it that is new and interesting and challenges the norm?
I think those three things can you, you have 10 buckets of information or 10 buckets that have a through line. Can you talk about it for five hours? And do you have something to say that feels kind of showstopping, that feels like I have an interesting take on this and no one’s talking about the fact that this is true and I want to let people know that this is what I see as a change that’s coming, or this is something that can affect business, or this is how I can help, but no one else is really thinking about it.
Well, and I think too, I think oftentimes agency owners poo p their, the differentiation or whatever, they’re like, well, everybody knows that, or everybody thinks that. I think, and I, so I think sometimes having an outside thinking partner, like someone like you to sort of bounce the ideas off of and have you go, well, that’s kind of interesting. What if we pull on that thread a little bit? Or that’s, I don’t hear a lot of people talking about it that way. We say it so often. I, I know I’m guilty of this. I, I feel like some of the perspectives that we have at a MI have been saying for so long and, and I, they’re such deeply held beliefs that I sort of forget that they’re unique.
’cause I say ’em every day. And I think a lot of times people sort of dismiss their ideas as like, well, everybody already knows that, or everybody thinks that because they’re kind of inside their own bubble. And that’s where a, an outside partner like you can help them see a different perspective of that.
Right. But I think there’s also the fear of coming across as arrogance or like, you, you think you, you deserve a book. Like everybody has a book. Like why, what, you know. So I think having someone guide them through a lot of that imposter syndrome and a lot of that fear of like, oh my god, like, do I say I wanna write a book, but do I actually, or do I just need, wanna talk about this? You know? Right. So it’s
Or or
It could be interesting.
Am I being kind of full of myself to think that I could or should have a book, right. To your point. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And a lot of the times that’s not the case. I think a lot of people ob I think everybody has a story to share in some perspective that’s interesting. It might not be their perspective that they’re leading with or that they think is their story, but if you sit with people, you know, you have those, those crazy moments when you’re like, what did you just say? Like, well, no, this is just my belief. And it’s like, do you know no one else thinks that way or that, you know, how many, how many conversations do you have where it’s just kind of, how would I wanna say it? Just like casually inspiring. Yeah. You’re like, what did you was like they drop these, you know, bombshells on the table over a cocktail and it just completely shifts your perspective and they might not think they have a book in them.
It’s like, oh God, can we please talk about that for a minute? Because I swear to you, if I had that reaction, there are a thousand people looking for your book too. Yeah. So I think it’s has a ton of opportunity to just say, I wanna write a book and then meet with someone who’s like, I think you should, and I think maybe you can, and this is how we can do it together, I think can be incredibly inspiring.
Yeah. Yeah. I think so too. I, I know a lot of the folks that you have helped put a book on the shelf feel that way as well, that they believe that they would’ve never gotten it done if it hadn’t been for coming. You coming alongside them and helping them really reframe sort of what they thought they wanted to talk about and think about in a, in a fresh way. And also just getting it done and then figuring out, as you said in the beginning of the conversation, now the book is done. Now what, like, what do I do with it to make sure that it delivers the value? And for most agency owners delivering the value is not, you know, making a bazillion dollars. There are lots of values you can get from being an author and, and it’s not always about the monetary, but it is understanding what’s possible and then exploring what’s possible, which I think is one of your gifts.
So yeah, I, I’m, I’m looking forward to you getting to do it for, for more and more folks is as, as you launch the publishing company and, and start expanding the way that you’re serving a MI folks, both with your a MI hat on and also with the publishing hat on. Yeah. So that’s gonna be a fun year, I think, for all of us. Yeah.
Very, very, very cool. Excited. Yeah.
So if folks wanna learn more about, so obviously they can email you at chadley@agencymanagementinstitute.com to find out more about the webinar series and all of that. If they wanna find, if they want to chat with you about a book idea or something like that, obviously they can email you at that same address. But do you have a URL or something you wanna share with them where they can learn more about the work?
Sure. The publishing company is Kingbird Press and I, it’s, you can email me there at chadley@kingbirdpress.com, my consulting, which is very much related to the publishing company. It’s basically the ideation side. And then the execution side is gray matter. My last name’s GREI matter.com. shaley@graymatter.com is a great place to reach me. Both of them
Have left use any of the email addresses for any of the things. So
For Yes. Yeah, exactly. In the show notes, I’m also going to include a free ebook that I put together, which is called your 2025 Book Writing Action Plan. I think it’s 25 pages of a game plan for moving an idea from or moving a book idea onto the page. So I’ll be sharing that. I have a couple other things that I’m offering to the a MI group like that you’ll see in the show notes. And there’s a additional free consultation if you just wanna talk through a book idea. There’s a 15% desk discount across everything that I’m offering throughout the year 2025 for a MI members.
So it’s just, I just love this group. So I’m very excited to help people move their ideas into action.
Yeah, it is one of your gifts, that’s for sure. So it’s, it’s gonna be fun to, to watch you do that for, for our folks, even at a deeper level than you’ve already been doing it for the last couple years. So thank you for being on the show and super grateful to have you on the team and be putting together the webinar series and all the things you’re doing on the a MI side of your world. And we’ll be fun to partner with you and see what you do on the other sides too. So, glad to have you on the show and glad to have you on the team.
Yeah, thank you very much. It’s fantastic to be part of this group.
Yeah, it’s awesome. Alright guys, so lots of things to think about. Number one, mark your calendar. So that first and third Tuesday of every month, sadly, will be hosting a, a wide array of thought leaders helping you take action inside your agency on behalf of clients internally. Lots of variety, lots of familiar faces, lots of new faces. So I’m super excited that we’re gonna be able to offer that You will see him throughout of the year at a AMI events for sure. And if you want to chat about an idea in general or a book idea, you’ve got his information in the show notes and we gave you a couple email addresses for that. So by all means, avail yourself of shalee’s.
I, I, I gotta tell you, he’s one of my favorite thinking partners. I never end a conversation with him. Not going, huh? I didn’t know that I would end up there, but I kind of like it and it, I, and then it cooks in the back of my head and it’s, it’s always exciting and it’s always kind of a wild ride and it’s never what I think it’s gonna be, which is part of the fun of having a great thinking partner. So reach out to him and avail yourself of, of that gift that he has. A couple quick things before I let you go, huge shout out and thank you to our friends at White Label IQ. As you know, they are the presenting sponsor of the podcast. They bring white label design dev and PPP c to agencies all over the world, and they are great strategic partners for agencies.
So head over to White Label IQ dot com slash mi to learn more about them. And as I always like to remind you, I, I love this, I love having these conversations. I learn every time I talk to somebody, but if you’re not listening, then I don’t get to keep doing it. So I am super grateful that you come back week after week and take a listen as we march towards episode 500. I’m gonna keep coming back and I hope you will too. So I’ll be back next week. Talk to you then. Thanks for listening.
That’s all for this episode of AAMIs Build a Better Agency Podcast. Be sure to visit agency management institute.com to learn more about our workshops, online courses, and other ways we serve small to mid-size agencies. Don’t forget to subscribe today so you don’t miss an episode.