Prioritizing diversity, equity, and inclusion in marketing agency culture with Farzana Nayani

Audio:

Welcome to the Agency Management Institute Community, where you’ll learn how to grow and scale your business, attract and retain the best talent, make more money, and keep more of what you make. The Build a Better Agency Podcast, presented by White Label IQ, is packed with insights on how small to mid-size agencies survive and thrive in today’s market. Bringing his 25 plus years of experience as both an agency owner and agency consultant, please welcome your host, Drew McLellan.

Drew McLellan:

Hey everybody. Drew McLellan here from Agency Management Institute. Welcome to another episode of Build a Better Agency. Super glad you’re here. I have an amazing expert with us today who is going to talk about a topic that I think is super important for us as business owners and business leaders. But first of course, I want to remind you of a couple things. Number one, we are just putting up on the finishing touches of the 2023 Salary and Benefit Survey. So we’re going to go out into the field hopefully next week to start gathering data. And if you want to participate in that Salary and Benefit Survey, it’s going to probably take you 15 minutes or so, or someone on your team 15 minutes to answer the salary questions and the benefit questions. As a result of you participating, you will get a copy of the Salary Survey results for free.

Normally, we sell those for $99 on the website, but you’ll get it for free, and we would really appreciate your participation and help with getting that done. We are going to be announcing that in terms of giving out the link and asking people to participate in the newsletter. So if you do not get our newsletter, head over to agencymanagementinstitute.com. And if you scroll all the way down to the bottom, there’s going to be a link that allows you to sign up for the newsletter. And we would love to have you do that, not just to get the salary survey link, but just because we try very hard to provide value every week in that piece. So I’d love to have you do that. So let me tell you a little bit about my guest. So Farzana Nayani is a Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Consultant. She has her own company.

She just wrote a book that I’m going to ask her about, called The Power of Employee Resource Groups. She’s also a faculty member and Executive Coach at The Forum on Workplace Inclusion, out in Minneapolis. So super well versed in all of this stuff. She’s spent the last 20 years of her professional life helping businesses understand the value and the importance of being a safe place for everybody to come and work, and also for customers and all of that. So as you know, this is a topic that I personally feel really strongly about, that we as an industry need to get better at this. And so, I’m super excited to chat with her and get some ideas, some really practical, actionable ideas of things that we can do inside our shops every day to be more welcoming and be more inclusive and make people feel comfortable. So with that, let’s get to the conversation. All right, with that introduction, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being here.

Farzana Nayani:

Thank you. Hello.

Drew McLellan:

This is such an important topic. I want people to get to know you a little bit and understand your background. And then, I have about a million questions to ask you. So if you will introduce yourself, and then I will start picking your brain.

Farzana Nayani:

Great. Yes. So nice to be here. Thank you for having me. Drew. My name is Farzana Nayani, my pronouns are she/her and hers. I’m a Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Consultant. I’ve been doing that work for over 20 years. I have my own agency doing that work, and I also am a small business, minority certified and woman owned business. I’ve written a book called The Power of Employee Research Groups that just came out three months ago, so I have lots to share about being on the author track and can’t wait to talk more about our conversation today.

Drew McLellan:

Awesome. So talk to us a little bit about what an employee resource group is.

Farzana Nayani:

An employee resource group is a group based on someone’s identity, whether it be gender or race or parental status, or if you’re a person who’s a veteran or anything around ability, disability. And those groups form in organizations to support those communities, especially if they’re underrepresented within a company. As those are formed, perhaps they can create events or help with marketing in terms of maybe being more aware of how to reach a diverse market. There’s also ways that people can create more engagement and support for people if there’s a group that is particularly underserved. So those are all ways that employee resource groups work within organizations. They’re usually in large organizations, but it’s helpful for small to medium-size businesses to also know about them.

Drew McLellan:

So could a small or medium-size group, I’m thinking we have this community of agency owners, could we as an organization convene resource groups where people, and from different agencies who have some of those similarities could come together and talk and connect and help each other?

Farzana Nayani:

Absolutely. There are a lot of associations that have groups based on identity. So let’s say if you’re part of a marketing association or if you’re part of any other type of business association, they might have a caucus that will come together around maybe, let’s say people of color or people who are queer identified or women. And those groups actually are also a form of affinity groups, exactly.

Drew McLellan:

So that’s really interesting. That’s something we should think about and play with, because that would be a great service for us to offer our members. So I may pick your brain about that later. So you’ve been focused on diversity and inclusion for 20 years. How has it changed?

Farzana Nayani:

There has been a lot in the past, of focus around the business case for diversity and how, if we are more productive through engaging employees, that there can be better output of a business or perhaps there can be a greater connection to markets. That has all been rebranded and it’s gone by the wayside. There’s been obviously a movement around equity and inclusion and the ability to be more sensitive to people of different cultures and create belonging. So with the advance also of 2020, also with the pandemic and the tragic murder of George Floyd, we’ve seen diversity, equity and inclusion really be on an uptick in terms of attention, and in intentionality as well.

Drew McLellan:

One of the things we were talking about before we hit the record button was this idea that organizations need to create a safe place where people who are different from the mass majority of people who work there or not, can feel comfortable being themselves, being accepted. And most of the listeners are small businesses, they probably have 50 employees or less. So what are some things that we can think about as business owners and leaders to create an environment that is safe and welcoming for all kinds of people?

Farzana Nayani:

Great question. There are a lot of ways that can be done. I think one thing is to take a look at the group that you have working for you and see, “Hey, do we have any blind spots? Are there any gaps, in not only our workforce, but how we see problems, and come up with decisions and solutions?” And what you’ll find is that there’s a whole segment of perhaps a market or a service or the way that you do business where, there could be some infusion of creativity or an idea or a perspective. And if we look at it that way, it doesn’t seem like something we’re forced to do or obligated to do. It’s actually an opportunity. And when we think about it that way, that’s when we can embrace more perspectives. Maybe for example, we have a restaurant and people in our neighborhood identify as someone who’s non-binary, and we have restrooms that are male and female, and people are coming in and they don’t have a restroom to use.

So given that, if there was someone on your team, maybe you would’ve flagged it earlier. I used to rent an office out of a co-working space, and that was one thing that happened where they’d have these bathrooms and I said, “Hey, you know what, that’s not really conducive.” And so I gave them that feedback. I also said, “Hey, what if someone’s a nursing mother? You don’t even have a space for that.” And quite frankly, and the state I’m in California, you actually need to provide that. So there are ways that even us as small business owners, we can make those adjustments to be more inclusive, not only to our team, but to customers as well.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. And again, the whole idea of speaking up and making some of those small changes. As I’m listening to you talk about some of the conversations you’ve had about the bathrooms or the nursing room, I imagine myself being somebody who has to speak up, who has to ask for something that’s not already present or has to ask for something to stop, that is present. I find it hard to imagine the courage that it takes to have that conversation. So how do we as business owners and leaders communicate that it’s okay to have those conversations? Because you’re going to talk to your boss and A, you’re exposing something about yourself that may or may not be clear or evident, and B, you’re asking for something and don’t know how the boss maybe is going to respond to that. So how do we communicate to our employee base and our customers that we’re open to those kind of conversations and we want to be better and we want suggestions on how to be better?

Farzana Nayani:

The first step here is really to be open to the conversation. And as leaders, it really is on us to take hold of leadership of the organization and invite it in and model it. So I think the way that we can do that is to showcase our own vulnerability and say, “Hey, you know what? I know that there’s a holiday coming up and there’s fasting involved. I’ve done a little bit of research on my own. I also want to know how this impacts you, if it does or not.” It could be something around the news and maybe there’s some tragedy in a certain community and wanting to have open arms and support people.

But part of it has to do with resistance around our own apprehension to talk about it. And once we get past that, then it’s easier for other folks to share. And you should also really tell your customers that there are some guidelines around it. If there are some incidents, what you’ll do to follow up with them, because if it is on their property or off their property, in their neighborhood, I feel that they also are responsible. But a lot of the time business owners don’t set up those guidelines as they engage with clients and customers, but it should be in a contract or it should be verbally said. So I think there’s some guidelines that we can co-create, but there has to be some thought put into it in order to support the employees needs.

Drew McLellan:

So again, putting on the hat of the employee or the customer who has a special request, I’m a straight white guy, so this is a world I just don’t know, other than by talking through people like you. So if somebody’s listening and they are feeling like they want to have this kind of conversation either with a place of business or with their boss, how do they gear up for that conversation? How do they prep for it? What should they anticipate? What do they come prepared with?

Farzana Nayani:

I think part of it is something you said earlier, which is, that it’s a special request. And I think the norm that we need to think about is that it’s not a special request. It’s normal for some of us and not for others. And in a dominant culture, you can move through the world in the way that you do and not have to think about some of those things. And for me, I have privileges and there are a lot of places where I don’t have to think about that either, but we have to flex ourselves and think about, hey, when there are these moments, do we look at the cultural calendar, for example, and think about how we celebrate holidays? So I’ll give you an example. I was consulting to a major car company, giving them some advice on their showrooms and how the sales people can be more conducive.

And one thing that we were talking about is, for example, in Asian families, and I’m Asian, my mom’s from the Philippines, my dad’s from Pakistan with roots in India. So I was advising them on how to be more supportive to customers. People come in with extended family. And so if you’re catering to the Asian community, you need to have more chairs, you need to have a simple thing. And that can feel like a special request. What, you’re asking me to bring in two or four or more chairs? But guess what? A son will come in with a grandma, the grandma who is the one who’s going to make the decision, even though the son’s doing all the talking.

So things like that, we just have to expand our horizons around that and observe behavior. I think one way to do it, just to set it up, is notice if there’s a trend happening or notice if there’s people who aren’t coming through your doors and ask yourself, “Okay, what is needed here?” And then I think employees do have a lot of insights. A lot of them know what’s going on. There was a candle company I was working with and we were talking about the warehouse and shifts, and it turned out there are a lot of Spanish speaking folks in the warehouse and the managers were not. And so, how do we actually make that environment more effective and the shifts, and we had COVID coming in. So listening to employees is the way to do it, is the bottom line answer.

Drew McLellan:

If you have an employee that you know either celebrates holidays you’re not familiar with, or again to your point, might be non-binary or something like that. I know you do a lot of work in HR. So in today’s HIPAA compliant, don’t ask any questions, don’t say anything appropriate. How do we learn more about each other in a work environment without causing problems or making someone uncomfortable?

Farzana Nayani:

Drew, you’ve nailed it in that, we are very weary and fearful of saying the wrong thing. And because of compliance issues, we often don’t bring it up. I think the other side of it is that we miss out on the opportunity to connect with people. So of course, we’re used to talking to people who are like us maybe, and that’s called affinity bias, by the way. That’s the type of bias where you golf, I golf, let’s go golf together. Or someone’s from the same hometown or someone’s from the same sorority or fraternity, you just end up liking and having affinity with the people who are similar to you. So you have to watch for that. So part of it is just asking the open question and observing and saying, “Hey, you know what? I know that I have this gap in my awareness. I need to surround myself with people different than me.”

And that’s just a rule of thumb for business in general, where you always need to surround yourself, where they say with people smarter than you or people who know different things. So culture and diversity is another element of that. There’s nothing wrong with that. And the experiences they bring, it’s not just a token thing. They bring with them a whole wide array of experiences and awareness and knowledge that we as individuals don’t have access to. So as responsible business owners, I think it’s part of our list of things that are priorities where we need to have people… They say that there’s this data point, Drew, where they say that when you have a woman on a large corporate board, that they’ve correlated, might not be causation, but there’s correlation. They say if you have at least one woman on a corporate board that they’ve seen actually higher profits. So why is that?

Drew McLellan:

They’re pretty smart.

Farzana Nayani:

Maybe uniqueness, innovation.

Drew McLellan:

Different point view, all the things.

Farzana Nayani:

Right, and the market. Or it could be the empathy sensitivity, it could be the reach, it could be how you connect with employees. There could be any number of reasons.

Drew McLellan:

And it’s probably multiple reasons.

Farzana Nayani:

It could be more than one. Yeah, exactly. So the same thing goes for any other identity, I would say as well.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, for sure. And I think about it, given what we do for a living. We create marketing messages to connect with lots of different communities and people, and we in essence, reflect society. And so, if anybody should have a vested interest in being more inclusive and understanding people who are different from us, no matter how they’re different, it just seems like we as an industry should be all over this.

Farzana Nayani:

Absolutely. I’ll give you an example. So I was being marketed to by some automated list and it was a product I was interested in, but what came in was, “Ladies and gentlemen”, or something, and that doesn’t work now, because if I don’t identify in either of those ways, you’re missing out on me. There was another experience I had where there was a software I was looking at, and this gentleman came on and he was talking to me about how I can crush it on my goals and nail it. And it was this bro language. Actually, I said, “Given what I do around diversity, this is not connecting. This is not the right thing, the right approach, the right message, you’re doing.”

Drew McLellan:

Know your audience.

Farzana Nayani:

Yeah, exactly. So I think those fundamental principles around marketing and connecting to your group layer onto diversity, you have to have that awareness.

Drew McLellan:

We were talking, our industry is amazingly homogenous given what we do still, even today. And there’s a lot of talk in the industry about how to change it and how certain ethnicities of kids in high school or college don’t even ever think about us as a profession. So I’m curious, for us as industry leaders, not necessarily even in our own business, but what are some things we can do to invite more diversity into our industry, even if it’s generations down the path. What are some things that we can do to influence that? Because I feel like that’s our responsibility.

Farzana Nayani:

Yes. The idea of how to retain people and engage people is such an important item today. One thing that you can think about is that, there are already people there who have diverse backgrounds. So how are there ways to not only uplift and support them, but showcase the efforts that they’re doing? I think that there are a lot of also people who are not owners, but maybe who have hired amazing and brilliant minds that could one day start their own thing or be at the top of their game.

And so, thinking about that pipeline and apprenticeships and internships and even people who are stars in their own way, I think is important. There’s also something called supplier diversity, where there are big companies that are looking for companies that are minority owned or veteran owned or LGBTQ owned, et cetera. So partnering with those agencies so you can win the bigger bids, I think is huge. If, for example, you don’t have the diversity on your team. So I was working with an architectural firm and they were looking for business owners who were of various backgrounds and they had access to the bid, but it was a matter of matchmaking and having someone else come on board. And then that group will continue with their expertise. So there’s a lot of contributions we can do as a group as well.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. So I want to talk to you a little bit about the quiet quitting that we’re seeing across the globe. But first, let’s take a quick break and then we’ll come back and chat about that.

Hey, sorry to interrupt, but I wanted to make sure that you are thinking about how to connect with your clients, by figuring out what they love, and maybe a few things that they’re not so crazy about with your agency. So at AMI, one of the things we offer are client satisfaction surveys, we do both quantitative and qualitative. So an online survey, but also interviews with some of your key clients. And then we come back to you with trends, recommendations, what they love, what they don’t love, lots of insights around how you can create an even tighter relationship with your clients. So if you have interest in that, you can go under the How We Help tab on the AMI website.

And very bottom choice on the How We Help tab is the client satisfaction surveys. You can read more about it, but whether you have us do it or you do it yourself or you hire somebody else, it is really critical that you be talking to your clients about what they love and what they wish was different or better. So do not miss the opportunity to tighten your relationship with your client, whether we help you or not. All right. Let’s get back to the show.

Okay. We are back and we’ve been talking a lot about inclusion and diversity and I’m curious what your observations are about this sweeping, I don’t even know what to call it, but the sweeping trend where people are, they’re not leaving their companies but they’re disengaged, they are just flying under the radar. They may or may not be doing all of their work and they’re just slowly retreating into the background without ever actually leaving the organization. And I’m curious how you think the topics we’ve been talking about intertwine. Or is that completely something different that you’re seeing in your HR work, that is not tied necessarily or not always tied to diversity and inclusion and people feeling connected to their organization?

Farzana Nayani:

You’re absolutely onto it. This phenomenon of quiet quitting is sweeping the nation and the world. It’s when people have a lack of engagement to work, maybe are doing just the amount that they need to do and not go above and beyond. And there are a few different viewpoints on that related to inclusion and belonging. One is that people are at capacity and maybe have their own personal struggles or are going through even mental health challenges or financial challenges. And so, they’re having to balance some other things at home. And we may find that okay, they’re not showing up in the same way, but I think that we’re lucky that we have folks who are coming, because there’s a real issue around labor and filling those seats. So that’s one thing. And I think part of it is, if we understand that connection and that it’s a two way street, then we can look at, “Hey, how can we make this environment more conducive to people?

Can we be more flexible about childcare? Can we be more flexible about working from home?” Some people are really staunch in processes, because we’ve worked from home and now we’re coming back to the office and there isn’t some of that leeway, people start to quite quit because of that. So I think as employers, we just need to look at in totality, how lucky we are to have people. I think there’s also the experiences of, “Hey, when I’m at home, I can manage my food if I have dietary restrictions or if I have reproductive health needs or if I have ability needs.” And they can handle that in private. So if they can’t handle it at work or people are constantly observing them, they have to hide some of that, how can we actually be more supportive? So it’s a 360 degree view on it.

I think it’s hard, I know, as employers where you’re like, “Wow, 10 years ago, five years ago, one year ago, it looked very different.” But employees themselves, they don’t want to drive a car, they don’t want to spend money on gas, I understand that. Want to log off, and when they’re done, they’re done. And by the way, Drew, there are these memes that are going around on social media around generations. So you’ll have the baby boomers who, the call comes in at 4:30, they’ll sit down and actually get on the call and be energized. And then there’s the Gen X’ers who will take it but roll their eyes and look at their clock. And then you have the Gen Z’ers who won’t even take the call and they’re like, “I’m going out now. I’m going to go to the gym.” So even that is interesting to think about it. It’s not just the individual, it’s the generations and then the relationship to work.

Drew McLellan:

And I think we’re seeing a huge shift. I was talking to a group of agency owners and we were all talking about our early days in the business, and you worked 60, 70 hours. That was just the norm. You knew that you had to pay your dues to be able to keep your job and to advance into the industry. And honestly, I never gave that a second thought. I just knew that was the expectation, and so I did it.

And I think you have a lot of owners and bosses who did that, and then they have employees who are like, “It’s 5:00, I have a yoga class, or I have a thing, or I want to be home to feed the baby”, or whatever it is. And the owners are struggling. And it’s not that they don’t want their employees to have a great life and have life balance, but they’re struggling to understand this shift and understand how to run their business with this shift. Because if somebody’s used to everybody working 50 hours, and now they’re losing 10 hours times 10 employees a week, that has dramatic impact. And so, I’m curious about conversations you’ve seen where different generations have talked about this with candor and an attempt to understand one another. And what are the compromises or the solutions or the fill in the blank of how these different generations learn to work together?

Farzana Nayani:

Great question. I think one thing around the 50 hours versus 40 hours is people see working only, I put in air quotes, “Only 40 hours”, as that’s equity. There’s this concept of, “I’m going to act my wage, you’re only paying me this much. So I’m only going to work up to that point.” And I think it’s just a clarifying conversation. If that’s the approach we’re going to take here, that is fine. That’s a choice, but that’s not on the career path of leadership or promotion. Because you’re doing the minimum, which is fine, that’s your choice. It’s just, don’t expect more.

And I think you can have that fair conversation, because there are people that quite frankly, don’t want to proceed on the ladder and that’s okay. But you’ve got to put effort and time and energy into those high flyers. The other part of it is, there’s this thing called labor hoarding, where employers are hanging onto people, but they’re not giving them the benefits or the bells and whistles or the things that people like, like professional development going to conferences or the extra stuff, because they’ve had to clamp down and tighten the purse strings.

So they’re hanging on these employees as best they can because they can’t afford to lose them, but they can’t afford to actually pay them well, treat them well too. So the issue with that right now is people, employees know that’s happening. They can see it. There’s all these layoffs. You just saw Snap laid off a couple hundred people, one of the payment processors laid off 15% of their workforce. And then we just saw Twitter completely obliterated, which some people think is right sizing and that’s fine.

But they also, from what I understand, got rid of all their employee resource groups. So what you have is a workforce who’s seeing all this wave of change and are completely demoralized and therefore are like, “I’m going to stay in my lane. My mental health’s important. I have to care about myself and the long road. And so I’m going to just limit what I put out into this work, because it’s not paying me more to work 50 hours when I get paid the same for paying 40.” And that’s the mindset. So we have to engage in other ways around, hey, the product or the output or the growth you have or the relationships, those are anchor points for people to stay engaged.

Drew McLellan:

And I think also, we talk a lot about employees wanting to understand why am I here? What is the purpose of this company? What are we trying to accomplish besides selling more stuff or making more money? And I think that’s something that some agency owners have really embraced and they are all about the mission, vision, values, and they talk about it and they weave it through their culture. And there are others who think it’s fluff and it’s not meaningful. And so, I’m curious what you are seeing in employee groups of all types, how they respond, or why do they have that need? Maybe for somebody who thinks it’s just fluff, help them understand why that matters to employees. It’s different when you’re the boss. You of course have a vision and all of that, but your employees don’t necessarily know what that is. So why does that matter, do you think?

Farzana Nayani:

That’s the main point. I think as much as you’re spending time marketing and creating promotions and a brand experience for your clients, you’ve got to do the same for your employees. You’ve got to express that leadership, that insight, the vision and the mission of your org to them. There’s got to be a deeper purpose. It’s not about selling, it’s not about clicks, it’s not about views, it’s not about eyeballs, it’s about lives that you’re changing. It’s about people who are going to be motivated to do the thing you are wanting them to do, to influence. And right now, given the volatile environment we’re in, how polarized our society is, having those voices share and be able to motivate people is such a illuminating and inspiring thing to see. And I think that’s how you get people to get motivated around a program or a product or a project.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. Or a company.

Farzana Nayani:

Or the company itself. And maybe there’s a question to be called in around companies needing to have their values up front and center.

Drew McLellan:

And then actually living them.

Farzana Nayani:

Yeah. And living them and knowing what that means to everybody, having everyone take part in it. I was just going to ask, I have a team of about six or seven core people, and I haven’t announced this to them yet, but I was going to ask them for their ideas and input for end of year giving. So I would like to hear from them who they want to contribute to, and then us to make a pledge. And it could be more than one. And I think that’s a way of them knowing that what they’re doing is making an impact. It’s not just unilaterally making a decision, but they can have all of their identities represented. So that’s my new idea and I’m going to actually share that this month.

Drew McLellan:

That’s a simple way to absolutely make them feel like they’re a part of something bigger than just doing the thing.

Farzana Nayani:

But it’s a statement, right?

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, right.

Farzana Nayani:

Because it’s about a commitment or community that they stand for, a cause. So even though they’re not the ones volunteering, the big companies will give you a day release and you go volunteer for Habitat for Humanity, build a house. We can’t do that, but what we can do is contribute $100 an employee and say, “Hey, we’re going to write that off as a tax write off. Good for you, good for me.” But it’s a bigger statement around, “Hey, I want to do this because I care. And I’m putting thought into it.”

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. I love that. All right. I want to ask you, I was thinking as you were talking about inclusion in all of that, that we’re at an interesting moment here in the United States for sure, but I was just over in London. I happened to be there the day the Prime Minister got hosted. So it’s not just the United States. There’s political unrest and political polarization, I think all over the world right now. So that’s a weird, unique new avenue that we have to maneuver inside the workplace. So in terms of recognizing everybody has different opinions and that they have a right to those opinions and all of that, how do you recommend to clients that they manage or handle or facilitate political conversations in the workplace, when things are so hot right now and people seem so many miles apart and don’t really seem particularly interested or willing to understand another person’s point of view when it’s grossly different than theirs?

Farzana Nayani:

This is such a hot topic and is an issue. Absolutely. We’re in a polarized time and have been for a while, and even more so with all these elections and decisions being made. One thing that I would say is, there’s a part of this that can affect policy. So for example, when the overturning of Roe vs Wade occurred, there were a lot of employers that were in a tailspin around how to respond to that, and either put messaging out or give benefits or not. And that does come back to our conversation around values.

So being clear about that, if it’s something like, “Hey, you know what? I believe in reproductive health and this is what it looks like”, then that’s something you stand for. And if people agree or disagree with that, they can leave or stay, to be honest. I think when it comes down to the actual politics of who you’re voting for or what parties, which we see erupting all over the workplace in terms of conversation, I would say just steer into, “Hey, you know what? Let’s be civically engaged. Go and vote. Go and share your opinion in a way that will make the impact. You’re respected for your opinion. You have a right to your opinion. Everyone has that right.”

But what I’m seeing is that people have a lot of opinions, but they’re not actually exercising the right to vote. That is very important. And they’re not informing themselves. So we have the thick guides on what to read, what measures are on the ballot, but we really need to educate ourselves on who’s funding those? What’s the impact on our community? What’s that going to do? How’s it affecting our youth? And we’ve just got to ask those questions. So I think a lot of people form their opinions based on what narrow news cycles they’re watching. We all have our go-to places we get our sources from, but having also a conversation to say, “Hey, you know what? I’m different than you. We have a variety of viewpoints here, but we need to respect each other.” And that’s bottom line as a leader and an org, as an owner, we have to set that pace for everybody.

Drew McLellan:

Is it appropriate just to say, “You know what, we are a political free zone. We’re not going to talk politics in the work place.” Or does that just make it worse? I think part of the issue is, I don’t think people know how to have civil conversations when they have different opinions anymore. It just gets very volatile and angry and picking sides. So I don’t know if it’s a good idea or a bad idea for us to say, “You know what, here at the workplace. People have a vast array of political opinions, respect all of those, but we’re just not going to bring that into the workplace.” Or is it better to foster conversation?

Farzana Nayani:

The first part, we’ve actually seen a major tech company do that, and they had a flood of people leave, because it was a way of dodging the issues.

Drew McLellan:

Like censorship, I would guess.

Farzana Nayani:

Yeah, exactly. So some people were for it, but a lot of people left. In terms of not having a civil conversation. I think you nailed it. I think we need some training wheels put on everybody and some ground rules and, “Hey, let’s look at how we communicate and talk to one another again.” And yes, it’s a volatile topic, but we need to get through it. And when you’re in the break room, no, you cannot pair your opinions and force them down someone’s throat, but you can have a conversation if it’s something of an educational nature, or yes, you can say, this is an event I’m going to, if it’s not an affront on someone else.

So if you’re going to an event that’s an issue, and that’s bordering on sexual harassment or causing disruption and harm to other people, you can’t talk about that. That’s on your own time. We’re not going to limit you, but it does reflect on the company. So I think business owners have to have their eyes and ears open as to who they hire. The last thing you want to do is end up on the news because your employee did something at the fast food place and started sharing racial epithets or snarling some comment. That’s the last thing anyone wants. So we all need some education around how to behave and communicate and respect each other.

Drew McLellan:

That’s right. It’s an interesting time, but it all does boil down to being open to learning about people who are different or who have different opinions. And it starts with us being willing to learn from each other and to be curious about other people’s lives. And I think if you are the person that the curiosity is aimed at, to be open to having those conversations and know that the curiosity is genuine and it’s not malicious in some way.

Farzana Nayani:

I really like that approach. I think people are weary and are nervous from all sides. So I think what you just said at the top of the conversation, you asked me how to start it, and now you’re actually giving all the solutions because it is, it’s about listening. It’s about being committed to one another. It’s about that relationship, that respect. And honestly, it’s thinking about, we’re a team. I’m not on a different side than you. I care as much as you do about the topic. And our passions are at similar volume, similar decibel level, but they’re just different. But if you go and look, there’s this model we say in the intercultural and cross-cultural field, it’s the iceberg. And we say, “How much of an iceberg do you see above the water? It’s 10%.” And so, you see people’s behaviors or how they look, how they act, how they dress, how they speak, but what’s underneath it all are the values.

And a lot of the time those are similar. We have a similar need for safety. We have a similar need to protect our family. We have a similar need to do any number of things, to have freedoms. And those are actually the same. So that’s the irony here. It’s just how it’s expressed and how we interpret amendments and how we interpret various things, which we can debate all day in religion and politics and everything. But I think at the end of the day, your workplace is your workplace. You set the tone and you can say, “Hey, this is how we’re going to be.” So I think that’s okay.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, I think so too. So I also think this is one of those things where, it’s not a one and done conversation, but all of us are going to be working on this and trying to get better at this for the entirety of our lives. And so will our children probably and grandchildren. But if you were going to give business owners and leaders one thing to go do today to just start to move the needle a little within their own organization, what would be the one place you would suggest they start?

Farzana Nayani:

Just as you know and learn about your audience, you’ve got to know and learn about your employees, and you’ve got to know and learn about the people who aren’t in the room. And I always end my big speaking engagements with the idea that there’s this concept that Vincent van Gogh, and he used to paint those chairs. So in addition to Starry Night and stuff, he did a series on chairs.

And if you go to the Amsterdam Museum for Vincent van Gogh, an explanation of why those chairs are empty, is because it represents someone who either was just there or is coming, but who’s not there now. And I have to say that we have to think about all the empty chairs in the events that we do, in the rooms that we’re in and the meetings that we lead. There’s an empty chair. So who’s missing and what perspective is not there? So we need to bring that in the room. If we can’t bring the actual person in, we need to bring their voice and their ideas. So that’s what I would say is be observant, knowing your team, and then also think about who’s not there.

Drew McLellan:

And what could you do to make them come in and sit down?

Farzana Nayani:

That’s the next step. We’re just starting with being aware, right?

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. Feels like a lot of work, but important work.

Farzana Nayani:

Yeah, absolutely. And it gets easier when you just start to implement it. It becomes a habit. It’s not something that you have to force yourself to do. And that’s the beauty of it. You just start to think like that. And after a while it’s second nature and it becomes as simple, just like any other exercise or muscle or skill that we’re learning.

Drew McLellan:

We just have to put aside some of our preconceived notions probably.

Farzana Nayani:

Yeah, exactly. Just like in this course of this conversation, it can only take that amount of time, just an hour with someone and to really understand someone’s perspective. Absolutely.

Drew McLellan:

Hey, this has been really great, and I hope you would be open to coming back again and talking some more, because I just think this is such an important topic that we have to keep talking about it and thinking about it and making these tiny little shifts that, over time will make a dramatic change. But in the meantime, I want people to know how to reach you, how to get your book, how to ask you more questions if they want to do that. So what’s the best way for folks to track you down, to find the book, to learn more about the work you do, and if you might be able to help them?

Farzana Nayani:

Absolutely. I’d love to be back, and I’d love to stay connected with everyone. My website is my first and last name, so it’s farzananayani.com. I also have my books out. They’re on Penguin Random House. You can get them at any bookstore, Target, Barnes and Noble, Amazon, of course, and your local retailers. They’re actually at Walmart too, so you can go online there. And I’m on all social media, so Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and I’m very busy on LinkedIn. You’ll find me there @farzananayani.

Drew McLellan:

Awesome. And we’ll put all those links in the show notes, so folks can track you down. Thank you again for being on the show and for being open to help us think about this topic a little differently. I think it’s one of the most important things we can do. So I am grateful for you being on the show today, so thank you.

Farzana Nayani:

Thank you, Drew, for having me.

Drew McLellan:

You bet. All right, guys, this wraps up another episode, and here’s the deal. As you know with all of our guests, I want you to have actionable things you can go do, that you can make these tiny little minute adjustments, whether it’s about your finance or it’s about how you hire or whatever we’re talking about. But this is about our world. This is about our world. This is about the world that our kids live in, our grandkids are going to live in someday. And if we can make it a safer, more comfortable, more inclusive place, there’s no reason. There’s no downside to that. And so, regardless of what else you have on your plate, I just think this is a responsibility that comes with the privilege of owning a business like we do and having an audience like we do. And so, I hope you will take some of the things that you heard today and begin to have conversations with your own employees, get to know them better, learn about what it is that makes them unique and valuable to you.

And so, I really do urge you to put in the time and put aside your preconceived notions and get to know them and let them get to know you a little bit. Again, there’s no downside to that. So that’s my request for you today. All right. I want to do a quick thank you to our friends at White Label IQ. As you know, they’re the presenting sponsor of the podcast, so you can learn more about them. They do white label design, dev, and PPC for agencies all over the land, and you can learn more about them at whitelabeliq.com/ami. All right. I’ll be back next week with another guest to get you thinking a little differently. I am grateful that you come back every week. And as always, you can reach out to me on social or by email if you need to get ahold of me before the next show. Okay, talk to you soon. Thanks for listening. That’s a wrap for this week’s episode of Build a Better Agency. Visit agencymanagementinstitute.com to check out our workshops, coaching packages, and all the other ways we serve agencies just like yours. Thanks for listening.