Improving the Culture in Modern Agencies with Sarah Noll Wilson

Drew McLellan:
Hey everybody. Drew McClellan here from agency Management Institute. Back with another episode of Build a Better Agency. And you know, when we travel across the globe talking to agency owners, there are two recurring themes of frustration for many of you. The first is no doubt enough at bats with right fit or sweet spot clients and prospects, so getting in front of the right people to try and earn more business. The second one is the internal conflict of your team. How do I connect with my team? How do I create culture, real culture, culture where my people care as much as I do about the business, about our clients, about the outcomes we deliver? How do I get people to work hard and to work smart and to work together? How do I create a connection with my team members so that I have the opportunity to grow and groom them? How do I retain great team members in this multi generational workforce that we’re all dealing with? Lots of changes and I think for many of you it’s gotten more and more frustrating. Some of that is I think because it’s gotten more complex. Some of it I think is because there’s fatigue, there is post Covid sort of grief of things are different, I don’t want them, I don’t want to work this way, I don’t want to work remote, I don’t want to work hybrid, whatever it is for you. In some cases changes have been thrust upon you that you’re not super excited about and that makes some of the lifting you have to do feel heavier. So with that, all of that said, I think this episode is going to be a doozy. I think we’re going to dig into why things are different and how we can start to influence our internal culture and our team to the benefit of the agency, to the benefit of the team, and to the benefit of our clients. And our guest is a woman named Sarah Noll Wilson, super smart, has been doing this work for many, many years and I’ve invited her on the show to help us understand sort of what’s going on inside our own organizations and how can we be a leader, a voice of change and bring about the kind of outcomes that we Want for the shop, for our people and our clients. All right, without further ado, let’s get to it. Sarah, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Thanks for having me, Drew. Excited to be here.

Drew McLellan:
So tell everybody a little bit about your background and how you came to have some expertise and knowledge in this space so we can dive into. I’ve got a million questions for you, so I want to dive into those.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah, I, you know, where I’m at now is we firmly believe that better conversations lead to better outcomes. And I’ve been on this journey for probably my whole life, my parents would say, but in earnest. Almost 20 years of doing research and working with leaders from a leadership development perspective, with a real focus on how do we have the conversations we’re avoiding and how do we increase the quality of the conversations we have. And so I’ve been fortunate, you know, just been fortunate to have a front row view with hundreds and hundreds of organizations, helping them show up differently and more effectively in their conversations.

Drew McLellan:
Is it worse than it has been in the past, in your opinion? So you’ve been doing this for 20 years?

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah. Yeah. Is it worse? That’s an interesting. In some areas, yes. In some areas, what has. It’s just different. So let me start with what’s different.

Drew McLellan:
Okay.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
When you think about it, from leadership, formal authority, and particularly when we think about pre pandemic, a lot of workers didn’t have a voice, didn’t feel like they could have a voice, didn’t know other options of what it might look like to be able to work and advocate for yourself. Um, I remember a leader once who said, sarah, like before the pandemic, nobody asked for this. And I was like, is it that they didn’t ask for it or they didn’t know they could ask for it? And so, so that’s been a fundamental shift right from the. When we look at it from a manager, team member perspective. Um, and then, you know, you just add into that, culturally speaking, from a Western perspective of the isolating, getting further into your factions, getting further into your belief systems. I think we have a real, we have a real. I was going to say deficit, but I don’t think that is actually even accurate. I think we have a real disease of a lack of curiosity, particularly with people who, who we disagree with. The. The flip side is, though, that there also been, as people have pulled away, there seems to be a greater need and drive for connection.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
That when it does come up, it feels really special and powerful in a way that it maybe didn’t before. So we’re riding in a really interesting wave when it comes to relationships.

Drew McLellan:
So that’s how it’s different. How is. How is it worse?

Sarah Noll Wilson:
No, I think. Well, I mean, the point of. Well, so how it’s worse are not taking time to clarify, making assumptions, contempt is showing up a lot more, which is one of the quickest ways to destroy a relationship.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
And I think that especially now, as we’re in this political climate that we’re living in, there’s a lot of very real risks people feel in either being to express themselves or to. To be themselves and what that looks like. And although, again, even though there are places where the tact is gone and I, and I even struggle with saying civility, and the reason I paused on that is because civility is so culturally defined.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Like, what’s civil for one country looks different than other. And, but, but as some of that, like, general empathy, I feel like has leaked out for each other.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
We’re just not always showing up at our best.

Drew McLellan:
So how do you think that. How do you think that reflects in the workplace and, and the outcomes of the workplace, given that that’s the climate that we are trying to do work in and trying to please in and trying to make a buck at, how does it show up?

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah, the thing that we see is the teams and the leaders and the companies who really are intentional about creating cultures of trust, of creating cultures of, you know, and when I say trust, I don’t mean that it’s comfortable, but that it’s safe for us to disagree and it’s safe for us to step into. Feels it. And again, this is just anecdotal. It feels like they are accelerating when it comes to being able to adapt, being able to innovate, being able to create versus people who are still trying to say, well, I’m your boss. You got to listen to me, suck it up, stay in your lane, whatever the case is, because again, there are some people who go, oh, I actually don’t want to be treated terribly by my boss, and I don’t want to tolerate that anymore. And so, so there’s this. There feels like there’s this greater divide in teams that are able to be productive despite all of the challenges versus those that aren’t. And so much of it comes down to, yeah, just what is the level of psychological safety? What’s the level of trust? And what’s our ability to be able to navigate all the changes we’re facing?

Drew McLellan:
And what do you say to the. The business Owner, the agency owner says, I just want them to show up and do their job. Like, I just, I don’t have time to babysit. I don’t have time for all this drama. And everyone seems to be in a crisis all of the time. And every crisis requires, you know, more time and requires special privilege and like, can’t everybody just show up, do their job and then live their life?

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah, I mean that would be great if, if generationally we weren’t in essentially an epidemic of mental health challenges. And you know, I’m thinking about the work of Jonathan Haidt and his book the Anxious Generation. For those of us who were pre cell phones, our brains are fundamentally different. For those of us who had the joy of being able to have our childhood on the playground, it’s fundamentally different. And what research has shown so, and I say this so people understand, 2013 was a absolute tipping point and acceleration of mental health challenges in young people. So we are, well, they don’t know explicitly, but with Jonathan Haidt, the psychologist, what he proposes is that that acceleration happened with the implementation of the iPhone4, because that is when front facing cameras came to be. And so now instead of it being, I’m filming everything else now, the comparison, right? So you have that combined with better Internet. You know, social media was different by then. I mean, I was there. I remember the dial up days of, you know, you needed patience just to load a page aol, just the noise. And so, so, so researchers trying to look at and go, what shifted in that? So there’s a couple things, right? So there’s technology, there’s access to Internet, all of that. And then, then you also just take in the fact that helicopter parenting became more of a thing. And so there is this resilience gap. There is a resilience deficit. So what’s tricky about people going, why can’t you just come in? And why don’t, why aren’t you more resilient to handle some of these challenges? They’re like, well, that’s just life. Because literally they’re like a lot of younger people in particular, the brain is just fundamentally wired differently from, from people who came in before. And so what’s tricky about that is it’s not as simple as policies and procedures, right? Like if we do not understand just the implications of the generational shifts, you know, that combined with the pandemic we know we’re in, a lot of many people are experiencing PTSD as a result of that. And so that shows up as a reduction of resilience, which I understand the frustration. And it’s like, in some cases, you know, it’s like asking somebody whose brain has, you know, is dyslexic. Just read clearly.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Because there’s so much work that has to happen, so we are just in a fundamentally much more challenging place. And then. And then. Right. Like, you and I could go on and on about this. Then you take into account that pretty much from anyone who entered the workforce in 2000, 2005, on.

Drew McLellan:
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
They’ve only known instability.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Like, that’s, you know, they’ve only known financial crisis. They’ve only known companies who weren’t. They saw their parents busting their butt and not being able to show up for them. They saw their, you know, potentially health issues or whatever the case is. And so we’re also at this crossroads of values, like a major value conflict, which is really, really difficult for a lot of people.

Drew McLellan:
Yeah. So given all of that, and especially if you are an owner or a manager that is a little north of that generation.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah. Yeah.

Drew McLellan:
How do you find the balance between, you know, salaries have gone up, your ability to charge more money to your clients hasn’t gone up. You’ve had a couple challenging years in terms of sales. Work was easier and some would argue better when we were all under the same roof collaborating together. So I’ve got a more challenging work environment. I actually don’t know my employees the way I used to because I don’t bump into them in the hallway and go, what’d you do this weekend? And, you know, blah, blah, blah. Every. Every interaction must be scheduled and planned. And the business is operating on sort of a leaner team, thinner margins, and you have a workforce that, to you, feels like they just keep asking for more. So how do I. And yet you want to be a good employer. You know that it is to your financial and mental advantage to have a solid workforce that’s happy about the work they do, that sticks around for a long time. So you’re not having a revolving door of employees. So how do you reconcile all of that?

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah, well, it’s what. What a beautiful, adaptive challenge. And it’s, you know, unfortunately, it’s not a technical problem we can fix. And I can’t say, well, just do this and this, and you’ll have it all figured out. And one of the ways I might invite people to think about it is we. We are. We’re. We are in an age where it is requiring us to experiment around things we never had to experiment before.

Drew McLellan:
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
So even just like. So for example, certainly there are some industries that benefit a lot from working under the same roof, being together, especially from a creative perspective. I will tell you pretty, pretty definitively, the teams we’ve found that we’ve had the privilege of working with, who are the most productive and how they showed up were remote fully. It wasn’t that because they were remote. It was because they were so intentional about experimenting, figuring out how do we build this relationship in a different way. So, so something that I might invite people to think about is, is it a rule or is it a possibility that you can’t have close relationships with people who you work with virtually? It’s not a rule, it’s just a possibility. The thing is, when you, you know, when you talk about all the challenges you’re having to be on, you can’t be on autopilot with those because you just need that to be able to survive as a business. And now you’re also not able to be on autopilot with how you build relationships and how you communicate and how you, and, and the other thing, when we think about this from a generational perspective. Right. Every generation has their, their communication vehicle preference. Right, Right. And I was just, I’m just speaking at a conference and somebody was like, but how do you do this with somebody who only wants to communicate by text? And some of the, some of the, some of the things that are true about how people want to feel seen, heard, respected, protected, can show up in text. We just have to be intentional about it in a different way. You know, how do we, you know, like for example, we know that there was a fascinating study, I won’t remember the name of the researchers, but that if you take even five minutes to talk about non work stuff, that team will end up producing and getting more work information from each other. And so one of the traps people fall into with virtual when they aren’t thinking about it, again from a more experimenting mindset, is they treat so transactionally, scheduling only. We only talk about what’s top of mind maybe because we feel like we have to. And we undervalue having some more of those impromptu moments or other ways to engage on social channels or slack chats or Right. Team conversations to be able to build those relationships. So I mean, part of the exhaustion is you not only already have the exhaustion of running the business now, the things that you didn’t have to think about, you have to think about in a very different way. But I would argue that we weren’t necessarily great at building relationships before we just to Your point? We just had more opportunities to do it. We had more quantity of interactions, not necessarily quality. And so this is forcing us to, to, to be more, to be more intentional. And then that. But then it gets into the. Your point of. But when they’re asking for so much that, that is a real challenge. There is, there’s a very real. I’ve read a number of articles recently about how yeah. Businesses are like I, I don’t know that I want anyone fresh out of college. I need somebody who has, has built up some of their work experience. And so that’s the other challenge is sort of that delayed adulthood is a very real thing. Yeah.

Drew McLellan:
So I wanted to just make a comment and get your thoughts on it and then we’ll take a quick break and come back. But I sort of think about like the way we used to build culture. Hanging out chips and salsa at 4:00 around the layout table. You know, bureau clocks very agency a lot around food and community and activity feels a little activity based. And I don’t want to gender specific but more how guys make relationships. Right. Like we play sports together side by side. Right. Right. And I think one of the things that’s changed is now the relationship building we have to make with our employees isn’t that anymore. And it’s deeper and harder. Yeah, that’s true.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
I do. I actually Drew, I really love you you bringing this up because this is something that I’ve contemplated a lot. Because if you think about. Yeah. Like so relationships were so often built shoulder to shoulder instead of even us even though we’re not in person. Like front to front.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
And when you talk about that from a gender perspective. Typically, traditionally and not, not by any fault of men but just culturally.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
This feels very vulnerable. And when we think about where people are of. I really. I want to be respected, I want to be seen, I want to be valued. I want to know that you know the business solver did they do an annual study. And the thing that continues to be really consistent is people are more likely to work longer hours. They’re more likely to even potentially work for less if they worked for a business and a leader who they perceived as sympathetic to them.

Drew McLellan:
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
And that is really challenging when the vast majority of people in senior leadership were culturally conditioned to not show their emotions in that way.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
And, and, and I’ve, I’ve contemplated as well like the people who were effective at building relationships on a much deeper level haven’t had a problem in this day and age.

Drew McLellan:
Well and add to it. And then we have take a break.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah.

Drew McLellan:
Probably 75% of agency employees are female.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Sure.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah.

Drew McLellan:
What’s the.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Can I. Can I ask just because I don’t know, what’s the breakdown of. Like, so if 75%, what’s the breakdown of leadership then?

Drew McLellan:
So in the US less than 3% of all agencies are owned by women.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Okay.

Drew McLellan:
So in. In the AMI world, interestingly, more than 60% of our members and the agencies we serve are actually owned by women. And I can’t explain why that is, but. Yeah, but I just think it’s an interesting. So if you’ve got a bunch of, you know, 40 north of 40 males leading departments or running the agency, and you have 75% of that workforce is female and maybe 45 and younger. Yeah, there’s. You can just see the hot mess that it. That we are all experiencing. Right?

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Drew McLellan:
And then you add. Then you add all of the other things we talked about. So let’s take a break. And yeah, I think we’ve clearly outlined and poked at everyone’s pain. Now let’s talk about how do we fix this? Because everybody wants it to be better, even if they don’t want to do it the way they have to do it. But they. They need a roadmap. They need some guidance. So let’s take a quick break, and then we’ll have you help us figure out how to create real culture that creates connectivity, that creates commitment. That’s one of the other things people are saying is my employees don’t feel as committed to me or the agency or our clients anymore. So we’ll put a pin in all that. We’ll take a break, and then we’ll come right back. Hey, everybody. Just want to remind you before we get back to the show that we have a very engaged Facebook group. It’s a private group just for podcast listeners and agency owners that are in the AMI community. And to find it, if you’re not a member, head over to facebook.com groups b a b a podcast. So again, facebook.com groups bab podcast. All you have to do is answer a few questions to make sure that you are an actual agency owner or leader. And we will let you right in. And you can join over 1700 other agency owners and leaders. And I’m telling you, there’s probably 10 or 15 conversations that are started every day that are going to be of value to you. So come join us. All right, we are back, and we are talking about. Talking about a lot of Things. We’re talking about the culture inside your agency. We’re talking about how to create an engaged, commit, mutually committed workforce. We’re talking about how to create a workplace that people of all generations want to be a part of, want to contribute, want to help you be successful, want to help the clients be successful. So we’ve spent the first half of this conversation sort of identifying why we are kind of in the place that we’re in. So now, Sarah, how the heck do we fix this?

Sarah Noll Wilson:
I would make so much money if I had, like a simple solution.

Drew McLellan:
And, and you had 20 minutes go.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
But, but I do. There are some things to try. Right. So first and foremost, people are more likely to commit to you when they feel confident that you’re committed to them. And a trap that leaders can fall into and business owners can fall into is, I’m going to throw money at you or benefits or look at all this that I’m doing for you. How dare you not?

Drew McLellan:
Well, you keep asking me for more.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Sure. And you keep asking for more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And for me, it’s always, how do we get to the, the, the core of it? So I really love this model from Tara J. Frank and the work that she’s done, which is every single person wants to be seen, meaning seen for who they are, but also they want to see themselves in the organization. So Inherently, if only 3% of leadership are women and 75%, like, there’s a, there’s a disconnect there of, am I valued here? Am I like, I’m not in the top positions. Right. Like, you do question that. So when we talk about being seen. Right.

Drew McLellan:
And I do. I just want to clarify. I think there are a much greater percentage of women in leadership roles.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Sure.

Drew McLellan:
But in terms of ownership, 3% across, across the nation, across the U.S. yeah, it’s very similar.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
It’s very similar. Like, that’s a very similar breakdown to banking.

Drew McLellan:
Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Banking is very, very similar to be compared to bankers. No, I know.

Drew McLellan:
Sorry.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Sorry. No, it’s okay.

Drew McLellan:
We gotta face.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Maybe that’s valuable to like, go, how do we. Okay. People want to be seen. They want to be respected. And like, respected isn’t treated civilly. Respected is, do I have a seat at the table? Do, Am I invited? Do you come to me and say, you have a different perspective than me or I think you would offer something valuable. So respected is, do you see my gifts and are you leaning into them? Right. Valued is obviously the appreciation. And then there’s the, like, do you feel protected Or I want to be protected.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
When we talk about culture, we have to understand that culture is created not by some pretty image you put on your wall. And. And it is created by what you do, what you don’t do, what you say, what you don’t say, and what I want to invite people to think about. It’s also created by what you tolerate and what you celebrate.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
So to me, I pause a little bit at the, like, oh, I keep giving stuff because I think about other organizations. I know, mine included, I can’t pay the same kind of salary. And yet every, like, constantly we have people wanting to work for us. When we open a position that’s, you know, like, this is as much. We get like 30, 40 applicants because they. They know that they, like, they. They’ve experienced us enough. So the reason I say that is the benefits are important and valuable, but we also have to be willing to take a very courageous look at what am I doing or not doing that might actually be getting in the way of the very culture I want to have.

Drew McLellan:
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
And that work is uncomfortable. It’s not easy. But I look at it like this. Benefits, all of that. That’s foot on the gas. And sometimes that’s an easy ask because people don’t always know what they actually need. I’m not saying there aren’t people who are entitled. I’m not saying there aren’t people who are like, well, this isn’t enough, maybe because they don’t have a reference. You’re like, oh, you have no idea how good you have.

Drew McLellan:
Right. You’ve never worked anywhere else in a lot of cases.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah, exactly. You’ve never worked anywhere else. But it’s like, okay, like, well, then go somewhere else. And then you’ll see on the Internet.

Drew McLellan:
And see that Google has nap rooms and bank. Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah, Right. That’s one of the challenges. You know, it’s interesting. I had. Yeah. Another client who’s like, they have all these, like, they know the possibilities, which is great. But fundamentally, like, fundamentally it comes back to, do people feel invested in as a person? Do they feel you trust them, respect them, value them as a person? And so. So a couple of tools that I would recommend. So to me, benefits, all that. That’s. That’s foot on the gas for creating the culture and moving forward.

Drew McLellan:
Yep.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
What I always want to look at is where is our foot on the brake and how do we get really honest with that? And so here’s an example. You know, we worked with. We worked with a client, and you Know all these things like, we value team members and we value. And, you know, there was a leader who had some not just questionable but actively destructive behaviors. They did a full investigation, it came up, and they ended up not doing anything because he made the company a lot of money. Right. Understand that’s your culture. Like, your culture is actually protecting people who are abusive or whatever the case is. So first we have to be willing to consider, what am I doing that might truly be contributing to people not feeling supported? So that’s one. The other thing is, you know, relationships always require both parties to go, what do we need from this in order for us to both feel really good about it? And this is something that organizations tend to do right out of the gate, but we call it calibrating. So how can you more regularly have conversations with your team members? Maybe it’s once a year to say, what do I need to know about working with you? Here’s what you need to know about working with me. What would make this successful? I love asking the question. We love asking the question, you know, when, if, like, when we don’t show up at our best, what are we going to do? Like, let’s just own it that that’s going to happen. Or even asking the question, hey, if the wheels are going to fall off the bus with us working together, where is it going to happen? Because then it gives an opportunity when the heat is low, not only for the team member to share, like, their thoughts and concerns, which again, you’re showing them that you value them, but it’s also an opportunity for the manager to, to be able to express, this is what I need in order for us, like, for this to work really well. I think the other thing to be aware of is the higher our expectations, the more support we have to provide to match that. And usually what happens is, like, we have high expectations and we want people to be accountable, but we’re not always looking at what support do we give them. But, but again, I do want to go back to and own that. Personal responsibility by the team member is also necessary and important because you, as a manager or business owner, can’t care more for their development than they do. Right. And so sometimes, you know, like, those are the conversations that need to happen. And if we have to have a, you know, one of the ways that I’ve had that conversation with team members who maybe aren’t where, where we need them to be is we’re at a place as a company because of how small we are, is that I either need you to put on shoes a couple sizes too big for you because of where we’re going or in. This is explicitly what I need because of who we are now. And like, are you in? Essentially? And, and I think sometimes we’re hesitant to be really clear about this is actually what I need from you. And I’m confident if this is true and I’m confident we can figure this out because that’s another way of showing support. Like, hey, I’m giving you some tough feedback, but I’m telling you because I’m invested in you and I think you can figure it out. But it’s tricky when you’re small. It’s really tricky when you’re small because you don’t have the bandwidth to lead people. You need people who can lead you.

Drew McLellan:
Yeah, I think that’s part of the challenge is that, you know, you and I were talking before we hit the record button. When you’re a small to mid sized business, you can’t really afford a lot of mediocre players. Like, you really need everybody to bring their AAME because you got 10 people. And so one person not bringing their AAME, that’s 10% of your full output. That’s not awesome. And, and you know, that’s, that’s a challenge. So the conversations you’re talking about having, if I am someone, regardless of gender or age, that is super uncomfortable with this, like, this is, this is my worst nightmare to have to have these kinds of conversations. How do I, how do I. Are there baby steps or how do I learn? Or is there some other way? Can I have, can I have an envoy do it? Can I, like, if I have somebody else in the organization who’s better at this, or does it have to be me, the business owner? Like, how. If, if this sounds horrible, I know I need to do it because I know I’m not getting from my people what I want or I know people aren’t staying as long, or I know they’re just not as happy and as excited about the work as I want them to be. So I know I have to do something different, but God, I really, really, really do not want to do what you just described.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Okay, so I’m curious to ask you from your experience, what’s your sense of the. Like, I don’t want to do it. What, be. What’s your sense of what’s driving that?

Drew McLellan:
I think it’s probably, and this is going to vary obviously dramatically by person, 100%.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
I know there’s not one answer, but it’s.

Drew McLellan:
There These are people who don’t. Who believe work and personal life should be completely separate, and they don’t talk about their personal life at work. Number one, that might be that.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah.

Drew McLellan:
Number two, this is somebody who is detached from their emotions. They are a type A driver, and it’s all about results. And, you know, it’s sort of the. There’s no crying in baseball kind of an attitude. Right. And so all this emotion is really uncomfortable and feels inappropriate in the workplace. Whether that’s true or not.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah.

Drew McLellan:
I think for some people, they don’t want to ask the question because they really don’t want to hear the answer. Yeah, right. And in other cases, I think it’s just a really uncomfortable. Like, I don’t know how to do. Like this feels weird.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
And.

Drew McLellan:
And. And I think in some cases, you know, I think for some male leaders, we have been so conditioned to be super careful about how we are with employees, but particularly female employees. Conversations, physical contact, like any of that, that you’re almost frozen in fear of doing something wrong, that’s going to be misinterpreted. That. That it. That was not your intention at all. But when you have a personal conversation with somebody about their marriage or whatever, it just feels like murky area that maybe you shouldn’t be in. Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah. It’s interesting. It’s interesting to hear you go there, because nothing I said was about learning about their personal life necessarily. Although I will say that that is where trust is built off and is getting to know each other.

Drew McLellan:
That was probably an assumption of mine because.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah, yeah.

Drew McLellan:
Frankly, it’s a belief that I hold that you can’t. I don’t believe you have. I don’t believe there’s work Drew. And personal Drew. I think there’s just Drew. And I don’t think. I don’t think. I don’t. This is my totally. My personal belief. I do not believe you can deeply connect with an employee without having some personal connection to. Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah. I 100% agree with you. I 100% agree with you, and I appreciate you clarifying that. I mean, a couple of things, like if you are somebody who goes, you need to leave it at the door, then I go, well, I wouldn’t want to work for you. Right. You know, like even that. Even getting curious with what is my reaction to this and where is that coming from and what role is that actually contributing and playing? And again, I know that people want to just focus the blame on other people, but, like, if we are going to show up as effective Leaders, we have to be willing to go, this is a problem. So, but to your point, I mean, a couple of things, right? If you’ve been conditioned or if you were raised that the rule was you leave your emotions at the door, I understand how this is difficult. And the thing that we have to understand is one, here’s what’s funny about that. There are emotions that are okay at work. Yeah. We’re okay with some people being angry and some people not. We’re okay with joy, whatever the case is. And I could go into like the, the, the, the science of like, why it’s actually healthy. But think of it like it think of it like creating a contract, like reframing the conversation. Right. Part of the reason we use the word calibrating is because for our manufacturing friends and other people, it’s very like, okay, like we’re calibrating the system.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
And the questions can be whatever questions might be most meaningful for you. But again, understand, we are in an age where people don’t want to be cogs in the system.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
I, I, I, I never want to work with a client who is unwilling to see my humanity and their own humanity.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
But I recognize that that’s really difficult. So for our friends who are like, I don’t know this like, right. What can I do? One way to think about getting really clear about expectations is that you could think of it, think of it like this. And I hope that I can explain this. I actually have a worksheet on this. We tend to focus so much on expectations around the objectives and the technical skills. Like, we get really clear. I need you to be able to do this, this, this fair.

Drew McLellan:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Depending on the role, we might get really clear about the. And when I say expectations, I’m talking behavior and skill. Right? Behavior and skill. So depending on the role, we might also really clarify your conceptual behavior and skills. I need you to be able to consider, like, all of the moving parts. I need you to be able to project, manage, and figure out, right. The two pieces that we do not clarify enough, but that often are the exactly what you’re talking about lead to a breakdown in employee being effective or relationships, what are the specific behaviors and skills you need out of that person from an interpersonal perspective, but also from an intrapersonal perspective. Right. Because that is the area that people struggle with the most. And then they don’t know how to give feedback and they don’t know how to do it because they haven’t clearly defined what the expectations are. So for example, Perhaps an expectation is that if you have somebody in an HR position, it is critical that they’re able to attend to their assumptions they’re making. Right. Like, and if we lay that out as an expectation and if we repeatedly see somebody jumping to conclusions, whatever we can go back to in a very black and white concrete way. Here’s, here’s the skills we need. So for some people approaching it, but here’s where it can be powerful. I want you to think about what are the skills you think are most important. I’m going to think about the skills most important and then we’re going to like, come together and see where the gap is. So sometimes entering from a technical door can be really effective. The.

Drew McLellan:
So I want to stop you for a second. So interpersonal versus intrapersonal.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah.

Drew McLellan:
So I think on occasion some job descriptions. And one of the models that we use does have some soft skills, but.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
They’Re interpersonal skills, they’re interpersonal, they’re not intra. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Drew McLellan:
So. So talk to us a little about what is reasonable to expect or talk about when it comes to intrapersonal skills. Yeah, I don’t think most people do that.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
No, they don’t. No. And in fact, when you actually look at leadership management research, the, you know, there’s a kind of a quintessential framework of conceptual, interpersonal. And what I realized in my work is that the place where managers got stuck the most was the interpersonal and the intrapersonal.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Intrapersonal is being able to notice, recover, like under high stress situations, being open to feedback. Right. Like. And what does that actually look like? You know, and gosh, that’s a real common one because most. Many of us will say we love feedback, but it’s only when it’s given to us by somebody we like, appreciate respect. Right. Like it’s all.

Drew McLellan:
And that it’s positive. Right. Really what we’re saying is.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Or at least that I agree with.

Drew McLellan:
Right, right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah, but like, but, but it’s interesting. So that’s an example where that’s a behavior that can be a derailer to someone’s career. And then the manager or the business owner’s like, I don’t know, I give them the feedback, then they get really defensive and then they do this and they don’t take any externalizing. You know, I’m like, well, then that becomes the performance issue. But the performance issue is that they’re unwilling to consider, they’re unwilling to reflect and they’re unwilling to make changes. Now that’s a performance issue that’s not just a moment of frustration. Other things like. Yeah. Some that have come up with clients recently. Yeah. Tending to judgments. There’s one specific that they basically had to build in. Like in your position, I need you to be able to navigate conflict effectively. And part of that is, is managing your emotions in those moments and being really clear about that because you know, and, or, or it could be, you know, that like. And again it could, this could fit into a couple of different categories but like really understanding the impacts of your action or non Action. Right. Like that’s, that’s part of the. That’s part of what we lean on is that people consider. I will say though that everyone is. Everyone is on some continuum when it comes to their emotional maturity.

Drew McLellan:
Yep.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Okay. And there are just some people who are in such a place of externalizing only never being able to take ownership, never being able to. Being willing to repair. Consider the role they’ve played in. Or you know, like I’m just going to keep asking you because you’re the one who’s messing up. There are just people you aren’t going to be able to coach. And then you got to make a change. Right. So. So there are, there are those situations for sure. And I don’t want to minimize the frustration. Yeah.

Drew McLellan:
Go ahead back to your example though. That’s where your choices matter. So if you’ve got an employee, a rock star at a technical skill, but they have the emotional maturity and ability to connect with people like a junior high person.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah.

Drew McLellan:
And you tolerate that because of their technical skill. What you’re saying. I just had this conversation. I was just on site with an agency and they have an employee that is brilliant. Best they’ve ever had in terms of the skills, but complete misalignment with their values and all the other employees trying to avoid dealing with this person because of what the interactions are. And I said. Which was not received with applause and, and tears of joy. What are you going to do about that? Because basically when you put your values up on the wall and then you let him stay, you’re lying to them 100%.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
And that is that, that’s. That goes back to the. You have to be willing to get really courageous about what we’re tolerating, what we’re doing or not doing. And you know, and brilliant jerks are able to stay so often because they, they make money, but they’re also costing you so fricking much.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
And if you want an example of it, somebody who is detrimental to your organizational like culture Teamwork, effectiveness, ability to innovate.

Drew McLellan:
Psychological safety.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Psychological safety. Right. Is going to cost you three times more than bringing in somebody who’s actually in alignment. And if it’s just always going to. And I think what. Where sometimes the calculations are missed is so everyone who’s having to work around, everyone who’s probably having to overthink their conversations. I mean, it’s clear in talking with you that you know what is possible when you have a high trusting team, when you have that high psychological safety. Like, we can have tough conversations, we can wrestle, but we leave and we’re fine after it. Cause I know. We know we have each other’s best interest. It is so inefficient. It costs so much money.

Drew McLellan:
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
When you have somebody who’s destructive and. And then to your point, and I really love Drew, how you just called that out so directly, because it’s like, stop saying you value this. When at the end of the day, what you value more than anything else is profits.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Then just be honest about that.

Drew McLellan:
I mean, I’ve heard that on the wall.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Companies that are like, yeah, put that on the wall. Like, our number one thing. And like. And that’s okay. And like, we are going to be the biggest company no matter what, no matter how many bodies we leave in the path, whatever the case is, then just be really transparent about that. Because that integrity breach, like you say, lying for sure. That’s an integrity breach.

Drew McLellan:
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
So why would I trust you? Why would I commit to you? I mean, you’re allowing this to, you know, and that’s. It’s really hard. But. Yeah.

Drew McLellan:
And by the way, there are people who want to work for a company like that.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
So 100%. Yeah. Just be transparent.

Drew McLellan:
To me, I think the more clear we are about who we are and how we are.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah. Not who we think we should be.

Drew McLellan:
Or who we want will attract those people. So, for example, we have. Some agencies are like, I want everybody in the office five days a week. Fine. Then just say that. And some people who don’t want to do that will leave. And other people who are hungry for that community, that connection, they can’t work at home because they have toddlers. Whatever the reason is, they’ll be drawn to you. But we mess it up even more when we are either unclear or we pretend that we’re something that we’re not.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah. It’s a. You know, when we think about trust, especially organizational trust, there’s. It’s. It’s like a triangle. So our ability, our integrity, and Our benevolence. And when there’s a disconnect or a conflict of what you say you value and how you actually show up, that integrity gets suffered like this. And so then, yeah, you do have team members who are transactional. Yeah, you do have people who are like, oh, well, you’ve given me stuff, and maybe I’ll stay. Right. It’s very. It’s not. There’s not that deep commitment. And again, and I’m not saying that there isn’t ownership by the team member to go, how. How do I want to show up? How do I need to show up? And if this isn’t the place for me, right, then it’s time to go. I’m not letting them off the hook, but it is way too easy for people who’ve been in power and authority for as long as they have, who assume that everything they do is really great. And it’s kind of like, you know. You know, I heard a lot. I’ve heard a lot in the last couple years. Well, Sarah, people. People just don’t want to work anymore. And I’m like, I think they just don’t want to work for you. Yeah, I’m like, I don’t know. I get lots of requests. I get clients who are like, hey, when do you hire? I want to come over because of how they see our interactions and how we work together and how we treat humans with respect and, you know, dignity and so that. That being willing to say, what message are we sending about what we value, really? And how is that in conflict with creating the kind of, like, committed relationship we want? And how is that actually damaging it? Yeah, I loved. I loved how poignant. I’m sure. I have no doubt that that was a inconvenient truth for them to hear.

Drew McLellan:
Oh, yeah, yeah. That may be my middle name, perhaps.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Is the dropper of inconvenience. I’m always like, this is a moment where we need to be okay getting fired, and we’re just going to lay it out on the table. This is why you fired us. Like, I’ll say it with love, right?

Drew McLellan:
Love and respect.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
But love and respect, this is.

Drew McLellan:
You don’t have to pussyfoot around. I just need to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, maybe that as we get to the top of the hour, maybe that’s the underline of this episode. So two things. One, I have about five hours more questions to ask you, so we’ll have you come back.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Let’s do it again.

Drew McLellan:
But I do think the underlying message of this is a couple of things. Number one, it’s not going to change. It’s not going to. We’re not going to go back to pre Covid reality. So we can, for that, we can grieve for that, but we also have to do business in the reality today.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Number two, and sorry, before you do this, can I interrupt real quickly? I love that you use grieving and sometimes and if we’re grasping for that, we’re just creating unnecessary suffering, right? Like, yeah, grieve it, honor it like that. We are in a new reality. But if you keep grasping for something that’s not there, it is just going to cause you way more suffering than you need. Okay, continue on part two. Number two.

Drew McLellan:
Number two, we have to change the way we lead our organizations. And it is, whether we want it to be or not, it is more collaborative than it’s ever been before. And we have to invite the employees to be part of the creation of real culture as opposed to sort of bromance, as you call it, shoulder to shoulder culture.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

Drew McLellan:
And number three, this is an opportunity, if this is uncomfortable for you to grow and to learn. And honestly, if you suck at it, them even seeing you make the effort, even though it’s awkward and it’s baby steps, and if you can say, look, I know I’m not good at this, that will earn a lot of points for you in the emotional bank because they can see your discomfort and you’re doing it anyway a hundred percent.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
And there’s, there’s, there’s two things I want to say. So to your second point, we have to understand that people are more likely to commit to something they help create. Now that doesn’t mean you’re running a democracy. That doesn’t mean that you’re still not making decisions from a place of authority. But where are the opportunities to go? How do we again, calibrate this together? Create this together, Whatever language do you want to use? But people are far more likely to not only commit to, but to protect that which they get to be a part of. And, and the willingness to be wrong, the willingness to go, I might not get this right, that intellectual humility is a really fast way to build trust with somebody. And I want to, I just really want to quickly, because, you know, you mentioned the experience of being like, from a male perspective of like sometimes being like unsure, coming from a place of, I might not get this right, but I’m committed to getting this right. And here’s what I’m like. And I, you know, like, this is what I’m trying. That, that right away sends a message of you care enough about me to be able to see it and get it right. The, you know, the other thing I will just say, like, as a woman, like, just get really clear about your intentions. I work with method all the time, and I have no problem with it. But when you say stupid stuff to me, like, I don’t know, are you married? Like, don’t do that. It was like, we’re professionals. Like, so, so for people who, I mean, honestly, like, the people who should be thinking about that usually aren’t.

Drew McLellan:
It’s probably true.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Like, they’re, they’re, they’re not paying attention to it. But the thing that’s so beautiful is the more we can increase our capacity and our ways of building relationships and collaborating, they not only benefit the business, but they’ll benefit your family, they’ll benefit your community. And honestly, as we are in this age, and I say this with love to my. The male listeners, like, there is a real epidemic of loneliness and that. That makes me sad. And so, yeah, it’s uncomfortable because it’s different and new, but it is. So I have yet to. We work with a lot of people who. This is real far outside their comfort zone. And. And I have yet to have somebody, by the end of our work, not go even sheepishly. Well, that was kind of nice because even men want to be seen and valued and respected and protected. And so, like, it’s an opportunity for us to create something new.

Drew McLellan:
Yeah, so true. All right, Sarah, if people want to learn more about you, the work you do want to follow your content, what’s the best way for them to do all of that?

Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah, you know, the first and foremost is going to our website, which currently is saranolawilson.com, we’re going through a rebrand, but they can go to that and learn all about the work we’re doing. You can sign up for our newsletter where we talk about all things conversations. We have a podcast, and then on social media, I’m predominantly on LinkedIn so they can connect with me and send me a dm. I love having conversations and hearing where people are challenged or struggling or just how they want to show up differently. I think I. What I’m. As hard as it is right now, what I’m most excited about is hopefully an age of, like, a more human centered approach to business. At least that’s what I’m betting on.

Drew McLellan:
Yeah, this has been great. Thank you for being on the show. Thanks for sharing your expertise and you. And I’ll circle back and have you come back because like I said, I’ve got about five more hours of questions.

Sarah Noll Wilson:
No, I would love that. Okay, thank you.

Drew McLellan:
Hey, everybody. I suspect for some of you, this was an episode that annoyed you or made you angry or made you frustrated, and you want it to not be true. And you know what? I guess you get? You can decide that. I mean, you can decide that we are wrong, and you can decide that it is somebody else’s behavior or problem or it’s generational or fill in the blank. You absolutely can. I invite you to maybe think that there’s an opportunity for you to have some influence over how it shows up in the business that you own, but that’s up to you. So I think there’s a lot of action items in this episode. I invite you to think about which ones you might take, and I. I challenge you to pick one that’s going to be hard, that you don’t want to do, and. And pick someone in the company that you know well enough to trust to go, hey, I need to practice this, and I don’t really want to do it. I don’t want to be good at it, but I. I have to. So would you be my. Would. Would you be my. My buddy and help me and let me do this with you? Because I think it’s gonna suck and just be honest about it. So that’s my challenge to you before I let you go. Huge shout out. And thank you to our friends at White Label iq, the presenting sponsor of this podcast. As you know, they do White Label dev design and ppc. They’re born out of an agency, so they know how to partner with agencies. They know how to. They know how to make sure you make money. They know how to make agency clients happy, and their depth of expertise is unparalleled. So. So if you need some help in those departments, head over to white labeliq.com ami and check them out. And you know what? I’m coming back next week. And I hope. I hope this didn’t make you so mad that you break up with me and you don’t come back. But come on back. We’ll have a different conversation with a different guest that I promise will hopefully stretch you and get you thinking differently about your business like this one did. Okay? All right, I’ll see you next week. Thanks for listening.