Leading with Pride in Turbulent Times with Jim Fielding

Drew McLellan [00:00:37]: 

Hey everybody. Drew McClellan here from agency Management Institute, back with another episode of Build a Better Agency. Welcome back. If you are a regular listener and if this is new, super glad you’re here. Grateful for you to take the time to take a listen. Lots of great content every week and this episode is certainly no exception. I think you’re going to really enjoy today’s guest. Before I tell you about him and why I think he’s so important for us to chat with, let me just remind all of you that the Build a Better Agency Summit, our annual conference 400 industry agency owners and leaders. We cap it at 400 so it stays small and intimate for two and a half days. If you’re a member, two days. If you’re not a member, two days of learning. So great keynote speakers. We’re going to talk about, of course, AI, we’re going to talk about leadership. We’re going to talk about how to have a presence with clients and with the team members. We’re going to talk about sales, we’re going to talk about biz dev. We have lots of great keynotes talking about how to infuse curiosity and strategy into your agency. Lots of great keynotes. Nine. Six different keynotes, I guess. Seven. Counting me. Nine different breakout speakers. Over 30 roundtable discussions where you and other agency owners are talking about topics that are critical to you and your business. So tons of different learning environments for everybody. It’s going to be awesome. The conference itself is May 20th and 21st. If your members day is May 19th in the afternoon. So just want to remind you that the ticket sales go up. The price goes up at the end of March. So if you’re listening to this in real time, you have about a week to grab your ticket. We sell out every year, so please don’t wait too long before you grab your ticket and you join us at the Build a Better Agency Summit. I promise you it is two days of drinking from a fire hose, learning, new connections, new collaboration opportunities, lots and lots of laughter. It’s a little bit of therapy, It’s a lot of learning and it’s Just great fun. So we would love to have you join us. All right. With that, let me tell you a little bit about our guest. You know, I looked over the last couple months of the podcast we’ve been doing, and it seems like we’ve been leaning into the topic of leadership quite a bit. And that is not by accident. We are in a moment that is a very challenging time to lead. There’s lots of change and uncertainty in our industry specific to us. We are working in an environment that is different than how we all grew up doing the work. We’re doing different kinds of work. We’ve got AI in the mix. We now are. If you’re listening to this in real time here in the United States, we’re in a moment of a lot of unrest and confusion and change politically and with client budgets, with business, with tariffs, all kinds of things like that. So for many of us, being a great leader, showing up and as an amazing leader is no small task right now. And so really we’ve just been focused on that, trying to help you sort of step into that leadership role. And our guest today, Jim Fielding, is no exception to that. He is been a leader for decades. He’ll tell you a little bit more about his background, but really brilliant guy, wrote a great book that I think you’re going to enjoy. But more importantly, I think we’re going to talk about how to, how to really show up in this moment and how to be the kind of leader that we all want to be. So without further ado, let’s welcome Jim to the podcast and dig in. Jim, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us. 

Jim Fielding [00:04:16]: 

Oh my gosh, thank you for having me, Drew. I’m really excited. 

Drew McLellan [00:04:19]: 

Great conversation. So tell everybody a little bit about your background and how you came to have this expertise. 

Jim Fielding [00:04:26]: 

Yeah, I mean, I listen, I’m a. I’m a proud product of Midwestern public school education. I grew up in Toledo, Ohio, went to school, public high school and then to Indiana University and then really had a 35 plus year career in starting in retail and then media and entertainment, including the last half at Disney, DreamWorks and Fox. That was really the 2000s. And I was president of Disney Store and CEO of Claire Store in there and then president of consumer products and experiences at DreamWorks and at Fox. And I right at the now knowing the beginning of the pandemic, Disney bought 20th Century Fox. And so for the first time in my life, I was out of a job and I announced to the world I was going to take a sabbatical Like I was going to use the severance package and the outplacement and all of that kind of stuff. But of course, there wasn’t a lot to come back to after my sabbatical time. And that enabled me to do the pivot that I’m on right now. And it really all started with the book. I wrote a book that was published fall of 2023. It’s kind of behind me here. All pride, no ego. It worked. That book turned into book tour and speaking engagements, and then ultimately I was trying to figure out how to spend more time in what I was calling that book world and in the inspiration world and the motivation world. I was working the whole time. The book and the book tour and everything was a side hustle, nights and weekends. Yeah, I was working full time for an incredible independent media company called Archer Gray and quite busy with that. And I announced to my partners, which your listeners understand too, we were small, 15 person independent media company with three partners. I announced to my partners in December of 23 that I wanted to go full time in this life, but I gave them a year notice. And then I decided I really want to do executive coaching. So I went back to school at Emory here in Atlanta. I live in Atlanta now and I did six months of coaching education. So when I introduce myself now, I say I’m an executive coach, speaker and author. But it’s all an ecosystem you and I were talking about before the recording. It’s all an ecosystem that’s really around using my experience and my platform to talk about authentic leadership and building high performing teams. 

Drew McLellan [00:07:01]: 

So I know this will not come as a shock to you, but you’re not the first guy to write a leadership for sure. So what was it you wanted to say that you thought the world hadn’t heard enough of yet in your book? 

Jim Fielding [00:07:13]: 

You know. So the title is All Pride, no ego. The subtitle is A Queer Executive’s Journey to Living and Leading Authentically. And I felt that while there had been a lot of books written by female leaders and female leadership, which I totally admired, there hadn’t been a lot of books written from out gay executives. And so I really, I knew it was going to be niche. In fact, I’ve been happy how broad the appeal has been, but I felt like I was literally writing the book for, you know, primarily LGBTQ leaders, but really leaders from any marginalized community who wanted to learn how to successfully navigate. I was in medium and larger sized companies, but wanted to understand how to navigate corporate culture. But still be authentic to themselves. And so it’s organized around 10 life lessons. And the way that my editor made it work for me when we were deciding to do the book was I was 56 at the time we were writing the book and she said, I want you to write the book that 26 year old Jim wish he had at the beginning of his career. So it’s almost like she gave me permission to write the book to myself. So it became a very, you know, inward looking, self awareness, cathartic process for me. But it was like things I wish I had known earlier in my career that would have made the journey even more delightful and magical, you know, because I, I definitely hit some bumps along the way. 

Drew McLellan [00:08:45]: 

Sure. So I’m going to ask, as a straight white man, I’m going to ask an ignorant question. How is leadership different when you are from a minority or marginalized community? What does leadership look like differently for you than it might for me? 

Jim Fielding [00:09:01]: 

Well, I think on the surface it doesn’t what I talk about. I don’t think it looks any different on the surface. I definitely coach and write about more the EQ side of being a leader. You know, the empathy, the active listening, the motivation, the, the team development that looks the same regardless. Yeah, exactly. No, that’s what I’m saying. That’s the same for any leader. I think it’s different is the internal talk. You know, it’s the internal, what a lot of people call the inner saboteur or your negative self talk. I call my self talk Jiminy Cricket. And he has good sides and bad sides. 

Drew McLellan [00:09:37]: 

But your Disney roots are showing. 

Jim Fielding [00:09:40]: 

Totally, totally. Yeah, but it’s that feeling, what I found from being out on the tour and coaching now, it’s that feeling of being othered that you as a cisgender straight white man, don’t understand and don’t need to understand. But for the rest of us who feel like we don’t get a seat at the table or we don’t get in the room where it happens, it’s a very common feeling and it’s been interesting. Not just lgbtq people of color, women, people who have immigrated to the United States have all contacted me, DM me, Instagrammed me, and said, regardless of your background, this speaks to me, these lessons speak to me. 

Drew McLellan [00:10:19]: 

So it’s just sort of a variation of imposter syndrome, it sounds like. 

Jim Fielding [00:10:24]: 

For sure. 

Drew McLellan [00:10:25]: 

Yeah. Layered with some cultural reality. 

Jim Fielding [00:10:28]: 

Yeah. And you feel there’s a level of feeling like you’re proving yourself that you’re worthy of being in the room and being in the big. The big boy table in the C suite. You know, I, you know, a lot of times with female leadership books, they talk about breaking the glass ceiling. With LGBTQ leadership books, they talk about breaking the rainbow ceiling. It’s really about, in many cases, not even blasting through the perceptions of the company. It’s blasting through your own perceptions to say, I have value, I am worthy, I’m going to make. I’m going to make a difference. 

Drew McLellan [00:11:02]: 

I’ve earned my seat here and I have a right to be right. 

Jim Fielding [00:11:05]: 

And kind of exercising some of the demons. Not everybody had demons, but I had demons in my past that I had to talk about exercising some of those demons and controlling that inner voice, that inner Jiminy Cricket for me because I was promoted. And I love that you asked this question, Drew. And I tell people this all the time. I do a lot of work at universities with undergrad and graduate students and I tell people I was promoted and got new jobs and was recruited because of my performance, not because I was gay. 

Drew McLellan [00:11:33]: 

Right. 

Jim Fielding [00:11:33]: 

I was not quoted DEI hire. I wasn’t. I was promoted because I was the best person for the job at that time. And I had a leadership team above me or around me that believed in me. And that. That is super important for me as well. I never wanted to get a job. And I don’t think anybody would ever say to me, we gave you that job because you were gay. Like, that’s not what it was about. 

Drew McLellan [00:11:56]: 

Yeah. 

Jim Fielding [00:11:56]: 

But I wanted to lead as I was though. Like, you know, it was my story. 

Drew McLellan [00:12:00]: 

Be yourself. Sure. It sounds like. And we’ll dig into this because I want to talk about the content of the book, but it also sounds like a lot of the advice. First of all, I think one of the big myths is that anybody feels fully confident to lead. I think everybody’s got some version there. Everybody’s got their own Jiminy Cricket. Their truth is about who they think they are or who they think they’re not. I think they’re hearing that in their head no matter how long they’ve been doing it. But it sounds like a lot of your counsel applicable for young and emerging leaders, regardless of they may or may not be. 

Jim Fielding [00:12:36]: 

Yeah. What’s interesting is young and emerging, for sure. Mid career people who are looking to get promoted. And then, you know, when I launched my coaching business, my first five individual clients were all in the C suite. 

Drew McLellan [00:12:49]: 

Yeah. 

Jim Fielding [00:12:50]: 

And like, so, like the first lesson in the book is control the controllable, but leave space for the possible. That has Nothing to do with gender, gender identity, age, experience. It’s literally talking about project managing and controlling and managing situations, but also knowing what you can’t control. And that if you over schedule yourself and over commit yourself, you’re going to miss out on those moments of insight, those moments of blue sky. The third chapter is don’t let anyone dim your light. Again, it doesn’t say because you’re a gay person. Right. It’s so I think, I think the learnings are. I purposely wrote them and edited them. And you know, I did so many versions of this book, but I did it so that they were truly universal. I mean, the last lesson in the book, which has become so important right now is authentic kindness is more important than being right or being first. So that one I get asked tons of questions about. I mean, the sixth lesson is how do you define enough? That’s another area that gets a lot of questions. When I’m in community, I want to. 

Drew McLellan [00:13:56]: 

Dig into a couple of these. So I want to start with the control what you can control. Because right now there’s so much in agency world that is out of our control. You think, you mentioned Covid. You think about everything that has changed. In fact, I just wrote a column about the fact I think a lot of agency owners are grieving the loss of how business used to be. We used to all work in the same office. We were together five days a week. The work was very collaborative. We knew all of our team members pretty intimately because we were with them every day. The work is different, clients are different. We don’t get as much facetime with clients anymore. 

Jim Fielding [00:14:32]: 

Yeah, the world is so different. Yeah. 

Drew McLellan [00:14:34]: 

Got AI in the space right now. So we are, we as an industry are in a sea of uncontrollable realities. Right. You’ve got the economic realities. You know, we, we had a pretty bumpy 23, 24 got a little better. 25 was coming out of the shoot pretty good. You know, we’re recording this in early March or mid March, I guess, of, of 2025, for anybody who’s not listening, sequentially in real time. And you know, the US is undergoing a lot of change and strife right now with the current administration and the tariffs. And so agencies are worried that their clients are going to pull the purse strings because they’re worried about what’s going to happen with their business. So right now there’s a lot out of our control. Let’s talk a little bit about this idea of how do I. How do I identify what I can control? How do I stay resilient and adaptive in a world that is constantly changing? And frankly, I don’t like most of the changes. Like, you know, it’s not that they’re happy changes. I mean, some of them are, but in a lot of cases it’s like I don’t really want these changes, but they’re being thrust upon me. So now what do I do with them? So talk to us a little bit about how to show up in that kind of an environment as an effective leader. 

Jim Fielding [00:15:54]: 

Yeah, I mean, it’s so funny because I pretty much, I post every day on LinkedIn and this has been a huge discussion vein in the last couple weeks because I’m honestly coaching myself with my own chapter all the time because it does feel uncontrollable. I also wrote an opinion piece that’s coming out in a couple weeks talking about the fact that many of the emotions and feelings we’re having right now feel like the beginning of COVID right When we were so insecure and unsure and afraid and there was so much myth busting and could we go outside and the toilet paper, I lived in California then. It was like the toilet paper hoarding. And you know, it just, there was a lot and it feels vaguely rem, sometimes too much reminiscent of that period. But I think what I talk about in my writings is the first thing as a leader. And it doesn’t matter if you’re leading a small agency, a medium sized agency, a big sized company, it’s as a leader admitting the vulnerability that it is tough, right? Like you don’t have to be a superhero. Like, you do not have to stand up and say, I got this covered. Because we’re literally dealing with unprecedented things. Everything you listed, the daily changes in tariffs and executive orders, the change of not only the presidential administration, but all the cabinets and all the things that that does. The economy being up and down, standing up and saying, I’m going to control what I can control. Right? And so I think everybody, all business people that I coach, that I know, we’re all looking at our numbers and our forecasts and battening down the hatches where we can, because the forecast is unpredictable. You still, especially as an agency, you want to do good work, you want to do quality work. So you need to hang on to your talent. You need to keep your talent motivated. And I think at times like this is when real leaders, whether you’re working hybrid, virtual or in person, you are in over communication mode. And that means one on ones, small groups, large groups and you’re brainstorming and you’re saying to people, well, what. How should we handle this? I think the other thing. Thing is, and listen, I. Working at Archer Gray, I was in a client service business as well. It’s over communicating with your vendor, your partners, your clients, your vendors. Right. Because everybody’s feeling it, and nobody can make you guarantees, but they’re going to remember the people who actually kept in touch with them and are. We’re saying, what can I do to help? Like, what are you thinking? And I mean, the last thing I would say is I talk a lot about having your personal board of advisors or your personal board of directors. You know, for me, that’s how I got through my entire career. And that doesn’t necessarily mean people that you work with. And I think in an agency, it could be other agency owners or it could be a trade group you’re in. It’s having those truth tellers that you could get on a zoom call with or a phone call and literally say, wtf? Like, what are you doing? How are you handling it? Again, I. I think it’s the sign of a strong leader to be able to ask for help and to be able to ask for insights, because none of us have all the answers. None of us have ever seen this before. None of us have ever seen these tariffs like this. None of us have ever seen this massive executive orders coming out. None of us have ever seen a consumer, you know, a society that is so divided and so angry. 

Drew McLellan [00:19:15]: 

Yeah. 

Jim Fielding [00:19:16]: 

And you know, us, The US Market is driven by consumer sentiment. And everything I’m seeing is consumer sentiment is very challenged right now. 

Drew McLellan [00:19:25]: 

Yeah. 

Jim Fielding [00:19:26]: 

So I think you have to be a good leader. You can’t be Pollyanna and be like, everything’s going to be okay. We just need to wait for the pendulum to swing. That’s not good. I also think you cannot be Chicken Little. The sky is falling. Because if you’re running around panicking right then that’s just going to create panic in your team. And I thought the point you made about hybrid and virtual puts more pressure on the communication. It was much easier in the, quote, olden days when you were all working in one office, and you can say, hey, grab a coffee and meet me in the conference room. We’re going to have a conversation. It’s different now, but it’s still the. 

Drew McLellan [00:20:02]: 

Same concept, the same intent. Yeah. 

Jim Fielding [00:20:06]: 

Yeah. 

Drew McLellan [00:20:06]: 

What you’re describing is exactly why our organization. Yes. 

Jim Fielding [00:20:09]: 

I mean, exactly. 

Drew McLellan [00:20:11]: 

We are the sounding board for agency owners. We hold a Q and A every month. For people to come and just talk about what they need to talk about. And, you know, we have active communities like the Facebook group and peer groups where people can do that. But you’re right, surrounding yourself with other people. So my wife and I facilitate all our live peer groups of agency owners. 

Jim Fielding [00:20:30]: 

Yeah, that’s awesome. 

Drew McLellan [00:20:31]: 

You know, as you might imagine, the conversations this season right now are very much around how do we control the uncontrollable and how. What do we say to our people and, you know, how do we forecast sales and revenue when everything is so topsy turvy right now? And you’re right. Surrounding yourself with other people and not having to do it alone is a healthy way to survive and thrive in an unsure world, which is. We’re certainly in. 

Jim Fielding [00:21:04]: 

The other benefit of having all this white in my beard is business is cyclical. This is a weird cycle. Yeah, listen, I became president of Disney Store three months before the housing market collapsed. Right. So, I mean, anybody who’s listening, who’s old enough to remember 2008, 2009 was not a great time to be running a business, particularly a retail business. My business at Disney store went down 50% overnight and kind of settled it, like down a third to down 40%. But we got through it. Right. I mean, we did some layoffs, unfortunately. We tightened the hatches. We. We looked at our travel, we looked at discretionary expenses. But one of the benefits of age is the wisdom to know you. 

Drew McLellan [00:21:51]: 

It is a path. 

Jim Fielding [00:21:52]: 

Yeah. I don’t. I can’t tell you when. I can’t tell you how. It’s a lot right now. It’s a lot for everybody. But it’s also. That’s where you have to maintain a certain amount of rationality. Right. Is. Is you have to kind of let some things play out. But that means you need to build in flexibility. You know, would I be going out and hiring 20 new people right now? No, I wouldn’t be hiring 20. I might be using freelancers or part time workers or contract workers. Like, there’s ways you can build nimbleness and flexibility and not burden yourself with fixed expenses. 

Drew McLellan [00:22:29]: 

For sure. I want to talk a little bit more about sort of one of the other lessons in your book I wanted and really is sort of the theme of the title of your book, this idea about sort of ego versus pride. So I want to take a quick break and then let’s come back and talk a little bit about the duality of those two words and how ego can serve us. And we’ll come right back and we’ll dig into that, I promise. I’m only going to keep you a minute before we get back to the show, but I want to remind you that the Build a Better Agency Summit, the annual conference where we bring 350 agency owners and leaders together, is coming up May 21st and 22nd. May 20th is AMI family Day or Member Day, but whether you are a member or not, we would love to have you with us May 21st and 22nd. To read more about the conference, see who the speakers are, or register, head over to agencymanagementinstitute.com and the very first button on the nav is Baba Summit. Click on that and all the information is right there. And we would love to see you in Denver in May. All right. Let’s get back to the show. All right. We are back with Jim Fielding and we’re talking about leadership in an uncertain time and some of the lessons from his book and his life experiences as a leader. So before the break, I was saying that one of the I mean, obviously it’s a big part of the book that’s in the title, but talk a little bit about pride versus ego and how ego can often be the enemy of growth. And again, I think you’re talking to a bunch of leaders who are typically type A alpha dogs, used to sort of run in the running the roost. And I think there is, and oftentimes our name is literally on the door. So there is a lot of pride and ego in our business. So, yeah, talk a little bit about how we manage what’s healthy ego and what’s unhealthy ego. Maybe that’s the way to look at it. 

Jim Fielding [00:24:20]: 

Yeah. I mean, listen, I realize it’s not black and white. I realize the title sounds very black and white. It’s not black and white in actuality. Right. It’s gray. 

Drew McLellan [00:24:29]: 

It’s literally like all of life. Right. 

Jim Fielding [00:24:31]: 

Like all of life. Right. Like, it’s literally like leading with pride and having pride in the fact that you establish this agency and that you do quality work and you have this long client roster and this history of, you know, this portfolio of projects. It’s really about controlling ego. Right. It’s just all pride. Control. Ego wasn’t as great a title on a book cover. 

Drew McLellan [00:24:52]: 

Right. 

Jim Fielding [00:24:52]: 

But it’s really about controlling ego because I think especially in these environments. Yes. Especially entrepreneurs and founders of agencies. There was a time where it was you and maybe one or two or three other people and you were the idea fountain and you were the driver and you Were the ambition and passion. You should never give up that vision and mission. It’s really about controlling that ego. To let other people’s talents and let other people’s insights rise to the top a little bit, to let someone else drive a little bit. To not be as much of a micromanager. For me, it’s a lot of where ego got tied up is. Listen, I worked in Hollywood for over 20 years. There’s a lot of external validation in Hollywood, right? The company you work for, the car you drive, where you live, the people you hang. Are you going to the Oscars? Are you not going to the Oscars? Like that was a lot of. Did you get invited to that party? Did you not get invited that party? That was a lot of ego. And so what I write about and what I coach about is you’ve got to find your self worth and your self awareness in your own validation, not an external validation. That’s another example of controlling ego. I think high performing teams and cultures. And again, if a team is 5 people, 15 people, 25 people, it doesn’t matter. I think they thrive when they feel safe, trusted and respected and that they have a leader who is passionate and visionary and sets expectations and sets very high standards. But also let’s go enough to let them perform, right? And one of the stories I tell in the book is at Disney we did 360 reviews and I got a kind of rough 360 review one time. They’re anonymous, but many members of my team. And a360 for your listeners who don’t know people that work for you, people you work for, your peers and people in your life. Take this survey. The people that worked for me said he’s a great leader and he has really high expectations, but we can’t live up to his standards. Literally came verbatim, right? Like I was setting too high of a standard and they were feeling like a failure. That’s another example of ego. You can’t expect everyone to work at the same pace and at the same style that you work at, right? I have, I have an uncanny knack to synthesize information pretty quickly. I have my whole life. I don’t know why. I think it was a gift somewhere for my parents. Not everybody synthesizes information the same way. Some people take a day or two, some people need a week. And if I was setting an unrealistic standard, what I was basically causing and all of your listeners will understand, I was causing burnout because they were feeling never good enough, right? And I didn’t want that burnout. I didn’t want the turnover. But the fact that they wrote that, I think it’s why I’m executive coaching today. I had an executive coach that I worked with on that very skill who came in, watched me in meetings, watched me in small group interactions, and when I would do it, we would have, like, a word, or he’d look at me and, like, raise a piece of paper, which was a way of training me. Palm your jets a little bit. 

Drew McLellan [00:28:02]: 

I was just going to say, how did you learn to. I think that’s a common problem, right? I mean, as an agency owner, you’ve been doing it for decades. Decades, three decades. Solve the same problem 500 times. 

Jim Fielding [00:28:15]: 

Exactly. I did it with a coach, but I also did it. And I think every agency owner probably has their number two or their confident or whatever. I happen to have at Disney Store an incredible head of hr, a gentleman named Peter Collier, who was my truth teller. Like, he would come in and shut the door and be like, that was an amazing meeting. That was a shitty meeting. Right? Like, he was so. And I truly valued that relationship and. 

Drew McLellan [00:28:44]: 

Kept saying to him, you asked him to give you feedback. 

Jim Fielding [00:28:47]: 

Thousand percent. Here’s what I said. 

Drew McLellan [00:28:50]: 

I got to get better at this. So this. This again gets back to that vulnerability you were talking about earlier, right? 

Jim Fielding [00:28:55]: 

I literally shared the results, and I was like, peter, look what they wrote. And he’s like, I’m not surprised by that. And I literally said to them in that meeting, drew, why did you never tell me this? Like, this is a blind spot. This was a huge blind spot on me. I thought I was driven and ambitious and, like, setting a tone. Right. I thought I was a cheerleader. Right? And I was basically a taskmaster who was setting unrealistic expectations. And any agency owner, again, it doesn’t matter. Big, small. You work in a big company. Turnover of talent is a problem. You do not want to lose your best and brightest. It’s expensive. You go through this gap where you’re recruiting to replace them. The learning curve of the new person, that is such a big cost that doesn’t show up on any P and L really, you know, maybe in recruiting costs and things, but the loss and what it does to culture and what it does to work, performance of losing talent is huge. And that’s what I was in danger of at Disney. 

Drew McLellan [00:29:57]: 

So in terms of, again, sort of managing with some vulnerability, sort of managing our own ego, I love that you said, why didn’t you guys come tell me? And I’m sure What they said is, are you kidding me? But I’m not going to walk in your office. 

Jim Fielding [00:30:11]: 

Career limiting move. Career limiting move, right? Yeah. 

Drew McLellan [00:30:15]: 

So ways other than a 360, which a lot of agencies use, are there some ways for us. Feedback from our team members as. As leaders, are there some ways for us to encourage. 

Jim Fielding [00:30:27]: 

I mean, there’s. Yeah, right. There’s the formal tools and then there’s informal. And it’s funny, I just realized I’m drinking out of this. Says Java with Jim. This mug Java with Jim, was one of the tools that we put in place at Disney Store. And I’ll explain it real quickly because it’s easy. I were in our headquarters. I had three headquarters. Tokyo, London, and Los Angeles. And I would travel between those three. Anytime I was in that market, we would always put a Java with Jim on the calendar. And Java with Jim was literally putting everybody who worked in that office name and a hat, and 15 people would get picked out. Didn’t matter. Title, didn’t matter. Tenure. Did it matter if their boss was in the same meeting? Like, we just. It was literally a random pick. And if you went, then you were taken out of the hat because you couldn’t go twice. When you came, you literally got an invite and it said, come with open mind. Come with a positive spirit. Come with your questions and comments. And you would walk in the room and everybody would have a coffee mug like this in front of them in different colors. There was coffee. Depending on the culture. There was whatever their version of morning pastries was. Right. Or morning snacks. And it was. We would say the ground rules were really easy. It was one hour. The door was closed. It was completely confidential. There was no note taking. There was no physical note taking or virtual note taking. And there was no career. We said, there’s no career limiting statements. And you were allowed to talk about whatever you want to talk about. You could tell me that your daughter sold the most Girl Scout cookies, right? Like, you could ask me questions. And in a company like Disney. And I realize it’s different in an agency, a lot of those sessions would be like, I heard this rumor or I heard that rumor, right? I heard layoffs were coming and blah, blah, blah, they were allowed to ask anything. And what was amazing about it, Drew, as. As I did it repeatedly for a couple of years, the quality of those sessions became unbelievable. And what I learned out of them was unbelievable. And did I go back to my office and write down three things? Of course I did. Because I was like, oh, my gosh, like There’s. I gotta remember that. 

Drew McLellan [00:32:34]: 

Right. 

Jim Fielding [00:32:35]: 

I gotta remember that that was a really good idea or that was not a great example. But people actually were, like, calling my office and saying, when’s the next job at gym? Like, when? Like, am I eligible? Right. Like, at first, I think those first three or four groups that went, they were like, oh, my God, we’re in trouble. 

Drew McLellan [00:32:53]: 

Right, Right. Right now. 

Jim Fielding [00:32:55]: 

I implemented it later in my career and started doing them hybrid. Hybrid was not as effective, I’ll be honest. When you have some people on Zoom and some people in the room, and then I’ve done them 100% virtual, where I tell everybody to get a coffee and, like, meet me in the Zoom room. But again, the intent is the same. And I think the benefits of not being title specific or function specific was huge, because also, in a larger company, some of those people had never been in a room together. 

Drew McLellan [00:33:25]: 

Yeah. 

Jim Fielding [00:33:25]: 

The IT guys had never met the graphic designers, and vice versa. So the first thing we would do is go around the room and introduce, how long have you been here? Where are you from originally? And then the Disney thing is, who’s your favorite Disney character? That’s like the Icebreaker. But I loved that tool, and that is cheap and cheerful. 

Drew McLellan [00:33:42]: 

Yeah. It’s really funny that you say that. So first, for the listeners, your name doesn’t have to start with the same letter as a meal. But I’ve always done dinner with Drew. 

Jim Fielding [00:33:51]: 

See, there you go. 

Drew McLellan [00:33:52]: 

So I did the same thing, but my companies were small enough that they were individualized, so I would be like, yes, you’re March and October, whatever it was. And it was like, you pick the place. First of all, you don’t have to come. You don’t want to do dinner together. We don’t have to. But if you want to, you pick the place, and we’ll talk about whatever you want to talk about. And those were some of my favorite things with my team members, because we literally would talk about anything to your point, from baseball to raising kids to work things. And I had some employees who brought a list of things they wanted to talk about and were very formal about it. And other people, it was just kind of shooting the breeze. But we always got around to the work things. Right. So you’re right. So again, even if your name doesn’t rhyme with or you don’t have SD name or a D name or job, like, come up with something. But I wholeheartedly second that. I learned more about what was happening in my own company from those informal conversations. And plus, the Trust you build with your team members. And for most people listening, this would not be that hard for you. So if you’re in an agency of 100 people, you could do it like Jim did, where you just randomly pick or buy a month or a quarter or however you want to do that. And if you have a smaller firm, you know, everybody gets a shot. And it doesn’t have to be dinner was long. 

Jim Fielding [00:35:07]: 

Take them to lunch. 

Drew McLellan [00:35:08]: 

Right, Take them to lunch. You could do a coffee, you could do a lunch, you could do a cocktail. You could do what. Whatever that time does to you, in essence, when you’re not in the suit, even though I know none of us wear suits, but when you’re not in the suit, just more informal, is you’re human magic. Yeah, it’s really magic. 

Jim Fielding [00:35:26]: 

You’re interacting as a human being. And then all of a sudden they saw me as an uncle and a son and a brother. And, you know, I remember talking about my aging parents. Right. Aging parents. We all deal with aging parents. Right. And yeah, I just think it was so important. And I. And I have to tell you, there was offshoots from that because then we started to do brainstorming and blue skying in that way. We would pick random people instead of the product people only being the only ones in brainstorming. We’d have people from finance, we’d have people from idea it. Because good ideas could come from anywhere. It like complete. It was. It changed the culture. It really, really did. 

Drew McLellan [00:36:03]: 

Yeah. 

Jim Fielding [00:36:03]: 

I love that. 

Drew McLellan [00:36:04]: 

So I want to talk to you a little bit about again. We’re recording this in early March of 2025. You know, we are coming out of. In the US anyway, and I think there are other parts of the world that are facing this too, for sure. But we’re coming out of a season where everybody, you know, post George Floyd was embracing DEI and was really coming out and very publicly talking about the fact that they wanted to be inclusive and have diversity. And, you know, now we’re in an environment where that is not being encouraged to be kind. So talk a little bit about how you see. And granted, I will acknowledge you’re going to have a bias on it. 

Jim Fielding [00:36:46]: 

So for sure. 

Drew McLellan [00:36:49]: 

But how should we. I will also say agencies have almost always been a place where diversity and inclusion has been pretty common, particularly with the gay community. We’ve always had a lot of gay folks in our midst. Fewer African Americans, fewer Asians, other ethnicities. We still struggle to recruit a more diverse talent pool from an ethnic point of view. But in this Environment. What are you saying to your clients about how they should approach as business owners and leaders, how they should be thinking about diversity and inclusion in a climate that makes it feel almost punitive to talk about it? 

Jim Fielding [00:37:37]: 

Yeah. Actively discouraged. You know, like di. DI has become a bad word, unfortunately. Or a bad acronym. Listen to me, do I have a bias? Because obviously, you know, I come from a marginalized community a certain extent. But first and foremost, my entire career, I was a capitalist. And I am a capitalist. Like, I had goals. I had to make qualitative and quantity of goals. Again, I was not going to get promoted or rewarded or bonused if I did not hit numbers groups. 

Drew McLellan [00:38:06]: 

Yep. 

Jim Fielding [00:38:07]: 

But my, my theory, way before dei. Right. Way before DEI became an acronym was. And I think the agency world is an excellent role model for this, Drew. Because, you know, I used agencies my entire life, even in the big companies was I always wanted diversity of thought, diversity of experience. Like, and it wasn’t only about color diversity or gender or gender identity diversity. Like, there was all the definitions of diversity. Right? Yeah. And remember what came out of that early DEI work was the American Disabilities Act. What came out of that was us talking openly about people with neurodivergent issues. Like, it was not just gender identity and sexuality. And because I was in consumer facing businesses, media and entertainment and retail, you’ll understand this as an agency owner, I said I wanted to look around the room. If I put my groups in a room, I wanted to look around the room and see my customer base staring back at me. Right. If I was at Disney and I did not have Asian voices or Latin voices or black voices represented, or women who were the purse holder. Right. I mean, the wallet keeper, the gatekeeper, if I did not have them represented in that room in the decision making, then I was not doing my job correctly. We were creating, particularly at Disney Store. Nothing we sold at Disney Store was a basic need. You know that as an agency owner, Right. 

Drew McLellan [00:39:30]: 

I mean, there was no Disney guy who spent a lot of time in Disney. 

Jim Fielding [00:39:33]: 

Right? 

Drew McLellan [00:39:34]: 

Yeah. 

Jim Fielding [00:39:34]: 

I mean, it was a wish, a memory, a gift. It was an indulgence. It was a treat. Right. And so I wanted, in order to get you to spend your money at Disney Store instead of Target or Walmart or the gas station where you could buy Disney stuff or Disney parks, I needed to make it great. And I truly had to create an environment where good ideas could come from anywhere. And if I had a group of college educated 40 something white people making all those decisions, we were not going to present a Disney store assortment that was going to appeal to our consumers. And so as a retailer, remember I was a retailer, I had 400 stores around the world. We had to do product assortments that worked in Italy, that worked in Germany, that worked in Japan, that worked in China, that worked in Georgia, that worked in California. And we were running E Commerce. That to me and way before dei, we were taught a class, Situational leadership. That was the name of the class. It was a one week class. Situational leadership was a precursor to DI because situational leadership taught you that one size fits all leadership techniques do not fit a team. If you ever manage global and I’m sure some of your agencies work with global partners. I said earlier I had direct reports in Australia, I had direct reports in Japan. I could not manage my Japanese direct report same way I did my New York based one. No way. No way. I could have the same goals, I could have same expectations. But I had to modify my leadership and my expectations based on their culture and language and ways of doing business. So I think it’s a business imperative to, quote, manage diversity. And that’s not a bias. I think it’s a business imperative. I also am very fact oriented because I was a marketer and a brander. Just look at the demographics of the United States in 2030. Look at the demographics of the United States in 2035 from the Census Bureau, from completely politically neutral. I don’t. No politics involved. We are going to be a more diverse population in 2030 and 2035 than we are today. That’s where you’re pulling your talent from, right? 

Drew McLellan [00:41:49]: 

Well, and it’s also where your clients totally. It’s where clients are going to 100%. 

Jim Fielding [00:41:56]: 

Your partners, your vendors, your supply chain partners. That is where the pool is being pulled from. And I’m only talking about the US Right now. I’m not even talking about what’s happening in the rest of the world. Listen, there’s probably certain parts of the country where if you say I only want to hire straight white men between 30 and 50, it’s probably still possible. I just think in the long run you’re hurting your business. 

Drew McLellan [00:42:21]: 

I know a lot of agencies are getting pushback. If they don’t, if they walk into a pitch, for example, with all white men, which is still not uncommon in our world, a lot of clients are going, where is your diversity? Do you have or all people over 40 or all fill in the blank, it doesn’t matter. But if you walk in with a homogenous group of human beings Any homogenous group. The clients are like, how can you understand our customers? How can you understand our business if you only have people? I want to see more diversity. 

Jim Fielding [00:42:56]: 

It’s viewed as an echo chamber. And the same thing, because I get asked this, I never walked into a room working with any kind of client where I had an entirely gay team with me. Right. Like that doesn’t make sense either. So again, if I was pitching, I wanted to win that deal. My la, one of my last big projects that I did was working for the Los Angeles Clippers. Me, gay man, project lead. And working for three years with the Los Angeles Clippers on their new retail stores and product at Intuit Dome, the new arena they just opened. Those were meetings with Steve Ballmer, his president of operations, who happened to be a woman. Like, there’s no way we would have gotten that deal if we did not bring talent into the room and represented the broad swath of customers who were fans of the Clippers. 

Drew McLellan [00:43:49]: 

Yeah. 

Jim Fielding [00:43:50]: 

And when we didn’t have it, we went out and hired it or we freelanced it or we bought research about it. Like that was our job. 

Drew McLellan [00:43:58]: 

Yeah, well, and I think, I think particularly as agencies, I mean we are, we’re always in the forefront. We are shaping culture, we’re watching trends and acting on trends. And so again, it’s difficult to be able to interpret trends or shape trends if you’re only seeing it from one lens, regardless of the lens. 

Jim Fielding [00:44:18]: 

That’s completely, I think, the biggest thing now with some of my coach. Because a lot of people in the C suite are in their 50, you know, late 40s, 50s, and I hear a lot, oh, I just don’t understand Gen Z. Right. I don’t understand these 20 something, these kids. You know, many of them are their kids. They’re the same age as their own children. Right? Yeah. Right. And I’m like, okay, but they are the future. Right. You need to learn how to communicate with them. And one of the phrases I use with my clients that I used to use in my corporate jobs was hire people that scare you in a good way. Right. Like, like, okay, maybe you don’t speak the same language. Maybe they’re talking about this AI thing. Right? This AI thing. Or they’re talking about the gaming industry. Right. Or this platform called Discord. You know that like no 55 year old man knows what Discord is unless they’re in the business. Right, right. 

Drew McLellan [00:45:09]: 

Or, or have kids that are playing on it. 

Jim Fielding [00:45:11]: 

Totally. Exactly. But it’s like you want those people on your team because that is your customer, that is the future. That is culturally reality, it’s culturally relevant. And especially if you’re in consumer facing businesses. 

Drew McLellan [00:45:25]: 

You know, for sure, this has been fascinating. I, I know I barely scratched the. 

Jim Fielding [00:45:29]: 

Surface, but oh my gosh, anytime. 

Drew McLellan [00:45:32]: 

We could talk for another few hours, but this has been, this has been great. If people want to follow you on LinkedIn, if they want to get a copy of the book, if they want to learn more about your work, what’s the best way for them to follow up? Jim? 

Jim Fielding [00:45:44]: 

Yeah, it’s so easy. I’m Jim Fielding. F I E L D I N G on LinkedIn, I’m very. And it is me, it’s not a bot. So if you connect with me or send me a message, it’ll be me talking back to you. My website is hihim fielding.com like hello, Jim, feeling high. Jim fielding dot com. Hi, Jim Fielding on Instagram. The book is available everywhere. Amazon is super easy if you’re an Amazon customer. Free shipping. I love supporting local bookstores. If you go into your local bookstore and they don’t have it, you can ask for it and they’ll order it in for you, which is always nice for them and for the author. And yeah, so much about what I’m doing now is about being in community, doing things like this, meeting new people, traveling around the country virtually and physically. And I love it. And I, and I love when people. Oh, I also recorded the book. So if you’re an audiobook person, you can listen to me. The other thing I always tell people, which I didn’t realize as an author, write a review. We love reviews. Amazon, Audible, Goodreads. 

Drew McLellan [00:46:48]: 

People think we don’t read them, but man, do we. 

Jim Fielding [00:46:50]: 

We do. We do. And they, by the way, good, bad, indifferent, write the review. Like I’m not asking. It’s not like a 5 for 5 uber experience. It’s like, I really want to know what people think. 

Drew McLellan [00:47:00]: 

So this has been great. Thank you for sharing your experience and your expertise. Sometime you and I are going to have a cocktail and we’ll just talk about the Disney we’re going to have. 

Jim Fielding [00:47:09]: 

I’m going to. I want my dinner with Drew. 

Drew McLellan [00:47:11]: 

All right, well, schedule. 

Jim Fielding [00:47:13]: 

I’m coming for my dinner with Drew. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. 

Drew McLellan [00:47:18]: 

All right, everybody, this wraps up another episode. And what this episode has done is sort of asked you to look in the mirror and see, you know, a lot of you, most of you, you are really great leaders. And I know all of you want to be that memorable leader that people talk about in, you know, acceptance speeches when they’re being honored for something that they remember the boss that taught them the things that you have the capability of teaching them. So I know, I know you aspire to that, and I know many of you are well on your way to being that kind of a leader and a boss. But I think we can all get better. And I think how we used to lead, I know for me personally, how I used to lead is not how we a leader today. So grab the book. Figure out how incrementally you can be a little better of a leader. And I love Jim’s suggestion. I’m a firm believer in this. Accountability, accountability, accountability. Tell somebody if you’re in one of our peer groups, tell your peer group members if you’re in the Facebook group, tell people in the Facebook group if you’re coaching with Danielle or I. Tell us, tell your number two in command and ask to be held accountable, to be that better version of yourself. Not that you don’t want to be, but sometimes we forget or we get flustered or we’re under pressure and we sort of gravitate back to that old habit. And so having somebody who is reminding you gently but firmly that you can be better, I think is a great way to have that incremental improvement. So that’s your homework from this episode. I hope you’ll take us up on it. A couple of quick things. Of course. I want to say thanks to our friends at White Label iq. As you know, they’re the presenting sponsor of the podcast. They come alongside agencies and do white label design, dev and PPC. You can learn more about them at whitelabeliq.com ami whereas I’ve been telling you for a couple years they have a special deal for you. If you’ve never worked with them before, they’ve got some free hours waiting for you to kind of kick their tires. I think you’re going to be pretty happy with the experience. And last, but certainly not least, I am grateful. We are marching very closely to episode 500, and I’m telling you, this is a journey and I love hanging out with you every week. I love having these kind of conversations with smart people like Jim to make us all better. And I don’t get to do that if you don’t listen. So I know how busy you are. I know how crowded your calendar is, so I’m super grateful that you choose to spend a little bit of time with me. And I’m coming back next week, so I hope you. All right. See you next week. Thanks for listening.