Your Words Tell Your Agency’s Story, with Jody Sutter.

Speaker 1:

If you’re going to take the risk of running an agency, shouldn’t you get the benefits too? Welcome to Build a Better Agency where we show you how to build an agency that can scale and grow with better clients, invested employees, and best of all, more money to the bottom line. Bringing his 25 plus years of expertise as both an agency owner and agency consultant to you, please welcome your host, Drew McLellan.

Drew McLellan:

Hey, everybody, Drew McLellan here. Welcome to another episode of Build a Better Agency. So glad you are back with us. Today’s conversation is going to be packed with things that you can put into play right away. My career started in the agency business as a writer, and I have always been very fond of the written word. It’s one of my favorite things to do, and that’s one of the things that I appreciate most when I see the talent in other folks. And that’s why I’m really excited to have our guest with us today.

So, Jody Sutter started her career in sales and ended up working in agencies, design firms and ad agencies, leading mostly the new business team. But at her heart, she’s always been a writer. In fact, a psychic once told her she would end up being a professional writer. And apparently that has come to be because, today, what Jody does is she runs a business development consultancy called The Sutter Company. Jody spends a lot of time working with agencies and helping them put a more proactive approach to growing their business, but with a special emphasis around how they communicate and getting jargon and generalizations and wordiness and sloppy writing out of their proposal and all of the things that they use to promote their agency.

Jody want to step further and partnered with a journalist in a Columbia journalism school professor and created a persuasive writing course for new business, specifically for agencies, in teaching them how powerfully persuasive the written word can be. And so we’re going to dig into all of that with Jody. We’re going to talk about all the places where agencies sort of stumble as they write for themselves and probably for clients and how you could do that better. So, Jody, welcome to the show.

Jody Sutter:

Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be contributing.

Drew McLellan:

Oh, it’s going to be a great conversation. So, let’s start off with, the demand for writing for agencies I believe is greater than ever before between the buying decision being made so much online now in terms of our prospects are hunting us down on the web and doing a lot of their home work, following us on social media and following our content and checking out the website long before they long before they ever reach out to an agency. So do you think that agencies today, even though we’re in a digital age, are depending more on the written word than ever before? Or am I off base?

Jody Sutter:

No, I think you’re 100% right. It is because we are in a digital age. You think about when 15, 20 years ago, especially in a sales role, the primary tactic of a new business person or a salesperson would be a phone call or an in-person meeting. Unfortunately, I’m old enough to remember the days and I started out in sales, working for commercial production companies, and I remember the days of walking the halls. Right?

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Jody Sutter:

It was interpersonal and it was very effective. Those days are over. But you still need to communicate in that same genuine but succinct and direct and persuasive way. But now you have to do it through the written word, whether it’s email, whether it’s on your website, or whether it’s through your client briefings. Yeah. So first thing that I get people to think about is, how often the written word is the first thing that your prospects see.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. As an agency owner, because I play dual roles, I have AMI but I also still on my agency, I find that when I’m interviewing job applicants or I’m even screening people for internships, I’m sort of appalled at the writing skill level that kids are coming out of college with.

Jody Sutter:

Yes, definitely. And unfortunately, I think college reinforces that as opposed to better habits. It’s very unfortunate.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. I think they sort of learn to use language to bloat papers and other things, and so there’s always a lot of hype and hyperbole that doesn’t really need to be there, along with bad punctuation and all the other stuff that I see.

Jody Sutter:

Yeah. I don’t want to generalize because I’m not an academic, but I think unfortunately many academics themselves are prone to that type of bloated language and hyperbole and jargon.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Jody Sutter:

So maybe I should start teaching these workshops at higher education or places of higher learning, which would be kind of ironic.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Jody Sutter:

One of the things that we started teaching in our workshops was to try to get people away from writing in bullet points. One of the things I point out is that, in college, most people, even in high school and sometimes grammar school, you learn how to write in an outline. That’s one of the tools they teach you.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Jody Sutter:

Here’s how you write in an outline form. And again, academia college often reinforces that. And then you get into the advertising world and there is a dangerous but subtle transition from writing an outline form to writing in bullet form, and it becomes this weird, ugly animal. So you’re doing what you think you are told to do in school, and instead you’re writing this patchwork of bullets where, quite frankly, usually, and I’ve analyzed this in a lot of my client’s writing, your most important point is at the very bottom of your list and bullets, usually a second or third sub bullet. And so, yes, that’s an example of the dangerous mix of academic writing and professional writing. Not a happy marriage.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. So for the listeners who are all of a sudden scanning their brain for what their web copy looks like and all of that, give us some of the big mistakes that you identify when you look at how an agency presents itself in writing.

Jody Sutter:

Yeah. Well, I think the biggest mistake is relying on the generalizations that almost every other agency uses to describe themselves.

Drew McLellan:

Oh, wait, let me see, full service integrated marketing agency.

Jody Sutter:

Exactly.

Drew McLellan:

Yep.

Jody Sutter:

Exactly. Or you even get some great gems like, “We are true partners.”

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Jody Sutter:

The amount of times I’ve seen that, that sort of makes my stomach turn when I read that, just because I read it all over and over again.

Drew McLellan:

Right, right.

Jody Sutter:

And frankly, that goes beyond good writing because that requires a lot of self-reflection, that difficult self-reflection to figure out how you can go beyond those generalizations. I think fear plays a huge role as well, and fear on lots of different levels. But there’s one just fear of putting pen to paper or putting fingers to keypad. But I think there’s also this fear of, if you move beyond the generalization and you start to stick a claim and say something specific, well, then there’s really no going back.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Jody Sutter:

So, if you-

Drew McLellan:

Well, and when you say you’re about something, by definition, you’re also saying what you’re not about. And I think a lot of agency owners worry about leaving money on the table.

Jody Sutter:

Exactly.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Jody Sutter:

Yes. So a lot of times I help them with that. The other thing that I see a lot on agency websites, is just saying too much, too much all at once, and not letting the work speak for itself. So those are two things that I think can be addressed right away for most agencies on their website when they make that initial first impression for clients who are looking to find them, as opposed to the agencies seeking the clients.

Drew McLellan:

Right. I think a lot of times agencies are guilty of the five pounds of information in a one pound bag where they just try and pack. It’s interesting because this is the very stuff they counsel clients against all the time. But, I think our clients, and in this case, agencies, are so worried that this is going to be their one shot to communicate that they really over communicate, which almost ensures it’s your one shot to communicate because you’ve either delved the senses of the reader or it’s just so dense that they don’t find it engaging enough to come back.

Jody Sutter:

Yeah. I use, and it’s a pretty basic sales principle, is to try to limit your communication to one big message, maybe two, but ideally you’re limiting it to one. Also, if we’re talking about a situation where you’re using the written word to prospect and build a relationship over time, the other thing I counsel my clients is to create a schedule or a campaign of communication. So yes, there’s another reason not to dump it all into that initial email. One, it’s not going to be read; and two, now you have no other reason to come back in a week or two with more information.

Drew McLellan:

Right. Right. Yeah. I think, again, agencies are great at giving advice to clients with the idea of multiple communications using marketing automation or whatever they may be using, but not always great at following it. Partially, it’s because I think most agencies don’t carve out enough time to do their own new business. And so they sort of end up slapping it together and sort of hoping that one big bang will suffice because they don’t have time to prune and maintain it.

Jody Sutter:

I agree. I totally agree. Again, getting away a little bit from the writing, but that’s often what I will do with some of my clients who are struggling there, is help them. So I guess it is, that you help them, again, come up with that schedule, then that cadence of communications that can be sustained over time. It’s great if there is some sort of automation that’s there, but you also don’t necessarily need, especially if you’re a smaller agency. And then I also advocate that you’re pursuing fewer, more targeted clients or prospects.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Jody Sutter:

You can actually do it manually, but it’s very helpful to come up with at least some kind of structure in the beginning. Because it’s pretty scary, it can also take 15 points of communication, these are the 15 messages that we want to say. Actually, I’m about to come out with my next blog post on a useful matrix that I’d also be happy to share with your audience. I introduced a matrix that shows sort of generic to specific communications on one access and simple to complicated on the other access. So you have your simple and generic, sort of for want of a better term, communications, which is, “We are XYZ agency and we know how to reach baby boomers.” So, that’s something that’s who you are. It’s very repeatable. You say the same thing all the time, no matter who you’re talking to.

Up to things like the simple but more complex, like a case study. So simple, because again, you have the information there, you need to write it well, but it’s there, it’s repeatable. To something, things like special offers that are a little less generic, a little bit more complex. Maybe that’s where you start to develop a special offer, that you think is going to be particularly of interest to that prospect.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Jody Sutter:

And all of a sudden, that I think takes the fear away of like, “Well, oh my gosh, I have to write. I have to think about 15 different ways I can carve out my message.” Well, if you’ve got that matrix showing there’s four clear buckets, then it makes it a lot easier, then all of a sudden you can start to plot out your messages a little bit more efficiently.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. So what we’ll do is, we’ll include links to both of those matrixes in the show notes.

Jody Sutter:

Great.

Drew McLellan:

So, folks, as you’re listening, know that you’re going to want to go check out the show notes and be able to access both of those. So that’ll be great. Let’s shift away from the website and the new business thing. When agencies are putting together proposals and they’re responding to either an RFP or a request for proposal, whether it’s formal or informal, what are the big mistakes that they make there?

Jody Sutter:

Well, gosh, where do I start? Well, there are several. I think one is in the planning. Now, a lot of times agencies are not given a huge amount of time, so I will acknowledge that right at the start.

Drew McLellan:

Even when they are, they don’t start usually far enough out that they have a lot of time. Let’s be fair.

Jody Sutter:

That’s true. In fact, that’s a beautiful lead into the first big mistake, is even if you’ve been given only a week, you can still start to organize your time in sensible ways so that you’re not pulling an all nighter the night before, because… One of the best ways to improve your writing right away, is to edit. Editing takes time and editing also takes a fresh perspective. One of the other exercises that we do in our workshop, and I’ll completely admit that we have blatantly stole this from another writing expert named Laura Brown, who wrote How to Write Anything, it’s a great book, it’s almost like a recipe book for writing, but she came up with this idea of the writing spinner. Because as we were saying before, people tend to procrastinate. Right? And I think that’s tied into fear.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Jody Sutter:

Not only because it’s like, “Ugh, I don’t want to do it,” but it’s also something a little bit deeper like, “Ugh, I don’t want to fail.”

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Jody Sutter:

So she says, “Look, starting is the hardest part, but there are different ways to start.” So start to get to familiarize yourself with what is most comfortable for you. So, the writing spinner says, you can start by dumping words on a page, or if you tend to be a little bit more organized, you can start by outlining, or you can start with brainstorming with a friend. But you still have to go through an editorial process, the point is to get comfortable with throwing stuff on the page. By the way, no matter how good or how experienced a writer you are, it’ll always be pretty horrifying. So, you also have to get comfortable with that. The sooner you can get comfortable with that and the sooner you get kind of that garbage on the page, the sooner you can start to see the jewels emerging from the garbage.

Drew McLellan:

Right. Right.

Jody Sutter:

You could start to go back, start to edit out. My writing style, I’m a bit of a word dumper, I tend to just start writing stuff. But what I find is that, rather than writing stuff and then going back to it, I find that once I get going, then the story emerges. Usually, for me, a lot of times, it’s all I… Not all I have to do, but a lot of times the first thing I have to do when I go back to edit, is just delete the first two paragraphs. And then I realize I’ve got actually something that’s pretty good shape. So I’m sort of the ramp-up person. I need that running down the runway before I take off.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Jody Sutter:

But again, other people may need to take a more organized approach, “I’m going to do this. My first opening statement is here. I want to make these three points and conclude here.” But the point is not to feel like you have to get stuck in one method. That’s actually not right for you. So yeah, give yourself time, give yourself the freedom to be messy and unsuccessful on that first try, but then go back and edit. Give yourself several rounds of editing.

Drew McLellan:

And what about having other people edit? How critical is that for agencies when they’re creating responses to some sort of proposal request?

Jody Sutter:

I don’t think anyone has asked me that in that form. So my first response was, I personally think it’s very important to edit yourself. But I think what often happens with a lot of agencies is that, usually there’s one person who’s in charge of it. I think even with smaller agencies, there’s one person, whether that’s the agency president, or whether they’re lucky enough to have head of new business, or if it’s the strategy person. But typically, there’s also sub-assignments.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Jody Sutter:

So I may be in charge of writing 50% of it and organizing the rest, but I’m assigning things out, so is that central organizer. Yeah, there’s a requirement to… Your contributors, they want them to be able to communicate with their own voice if they feel comfortable, but then you have to be the one who then edits that through the filter of the agency brand.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Jody Sutter:

That’s advanced, I’ll fully admit it, and it takes practice. But good and seasoned new business people, that’s something that they’ve been able to develop over time. But for something like that, that’s a tricky thing. I’m so used to editing my own work that rarely do I have other people edit for me. I think what is really important, in fact, crucial, is proofreading.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Jody Sutter:

That’s when you definitely want a difference set of eyes on your own work.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. I find sometimes, even in my own writing though, that I’m so clear in my own head about what I want to communicate that sometimes I will take kind of a shortcut in my writing. And it’s not always as clear to a reader as it is for me, the writer, in my own head, because I’ve got the whole context in the backstory. I know sometimes when we’re working on new business pitches and things like that, I may be the lead architect of the document, but it’s helpful throughout the process to have somebody else coming back behind me, maybe not to edit, but to sort of review and go, “That’s a little unclear,” or, “Did you mean this or that?” or catch jargon, that sort of thing, throughout the process. So that’s, for us anyway, a helpful way to make sure that what’s in my head actually gets on paper and I’ve articulated it clearly.

Jody Sutter:

You really are absolutely right. And I suppose, I’m also thinking, when I work with clients, often I’m in that role.

Drew McLellan:

Right. Right.

Jody Sutter:

So I think one of the keys is also to make sure you have someone who you trust, who’s editing it for you, who’s looking at it, and then also be willing to take their input, be willing to assess it critically, accept it, and then use it if the person is right, and maybe don’t use it if it doesn’t feel right to you. But, the important thing is, don’t let your ego get involved.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. So, obviously, in most cases, when an agency is submitting some sort of written proposal that other agencies are also submitting proposals, I think a lot of agencies think that their stuff is really unique. But when you see a lot of it, like you, or I do, I think you very quickly see that it all sounds pretty much the same. How can agencies really differentiate themselves in that sort of a written document so that their work or their proposal does stand out from the four others that are being presented?

Jody Sutter:

Yeah. Well, I think, first of all, it does go back to be really clear about who you are and what you do best. And that goes beyond the writing. It’s difficult. It’s self-reflection. It’s that painful process. But once you get there, then the writing becomes so much easier because once you can articulate who you are and what you do well and what that brand means, then it’s a natural transition to start to develop that editorial voice. But one of the other exercises that we introduce to our clients is storytelling. And I think that is often neglected. And again, it’s sort of ironic because advertising agencies are very good at storytelling on behalf of their clients, of-

Drew McLellan:

Right, right.

Jody Sutter:

… weaving a story throughout a campaign, but they’re not so good when they’re talking about their own material. So we introduce the concept of a story arc, and we relate it to stories that we all know, the idea that you start with a certain level of stasis, then the surprise and setbacks as you go on the journey to a climax and to a resolution. I’m really abbreviating it there. But what we point out is that, while that makes sense for something like a Harry Potter, or a Wizard of Oz, we then say, “Okay, let’s look at that in the context of, say, a case study.” And I usually use case studies because they’re really the most obvious, in fact, case studies are stories because it starts out with some sort of stasis with the client. The client was bumping along quite happily until something happens, some trigger, like a new competitor in the market place or the economy tanked.

So, that’s when the agency has handed that challenge of how to fix the problem, and the agency then proceeds to go on its journey. During which, there are surprises and setbacks, and that’s throughout their research phase, that’s throughout developing their insights and their strategies, that’s throughout their creative development, even the creative execution. I think sometimes agencies can take things for granted, like the fact that maybe they’ve decided for a particular client or campaign that they’re going to use a new technology, new and untested technology. Well, something like that is a wonderful way to add a certain amount of tension in that story, in that case study because we don’t know what’s going to happen. It’s a brand new technology. So you’re telling a good story, but the underlying messages are: We are an agency that knows how to take smart risks for our clients. We’re an agency that’s creative. We’re an agency that doesn’t say no. We’re an agency that’s-

Drew McLellan:

We’re innovative.

Jody Sutter:

Right.

Drew McLellan:

We’re always on the cutting edge of what’s new. Right.

Jody Sutter:

Without having to say, “We are innovative and on the cutting edge,” which doesn’t really tell them anything.

Drew McLellan:

So really, what you’re saying is, it’s one of the ways to make that kind of a document different than everyone else’s, is to show more than tell.

Jody Sutter:

Show more than tell and do it within a story format. Because even though your competitors may also be using story formats, they’ll be telling a different story.

Drew McLellan:

Right. Right.

Jody Sutter:

It’s only you can tell your own story.

Drew McLellan:

Well, and many of them, probably to be concise or telling the story in bullet points, which to your earlier point, (a) a lot of times you get the importance out of order, but (b) it’s pretty difficult to put any emotion into bullet points.

Jody Sutter:

Exactly.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Jody Sutter:

Exactly. And I think, again, it’s letting go of that fear a little bit. I think, sometimes, why the story format can be really useful is that, it becomes a device also to remove some of the apprehension. Am I going to sound good? Does anyone really care about the story? I think you can sort of follow that path. Another thing that we use, something else that we blatantly ripped off, is a thing called the Pixar Pitch. I first learned about it in Dan Pink’s book To Sell Is Human.

Drew McLellan:

Which is a great book.

Jody Sutter:

It’s a wonderful book for almost anyone who runs an agency and is involved in this development.

Drew McLellan:

Yep.

Jody Sutter:

And he got it from a former Pixar story artist named Emma Coats. What she did is, she discovered that all Pixar stories can be boiled down to a really simple format that essentially goes, “Once upon a time, this thing happened. And because of that, this thing happened. Because of that, the other thing happened. Because of that, finally, they came to this conclusion.” And again, I’m oversimplifying yet. I’m sorry, I don’t have it in front of me to be loyal to it. But it essentially takes in all the elements of the classic story arc, but it’s super simple. So a lot of times we’ll go through that exercise to get people to bring new life to a case study or an agency bio, or even their own agency history, or even sometimes their work process itself. If people talk about clients, search consultants will say, “Oh, if I have to read another five-step work process, innovative proprietary work process…”

Drew McLellan:

Right. Right.

Jody Sutter:

Well, the fact is, they’re all going to have some similarities.

Drew McLellan:

Of course.

Jody Sutter:

But if you can add certain amount of storytelling to it, then you’re going to draw in your own voice. It’s going to relate back to your reason for being in this crazy business, and it’s going to be more interesting.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. You just said something that peaked my interest. Let’s talk about the agency history piece for a minute because I think, I work with 250 or so agencies a year and a lot of them started less than auspiciously, or they started in a basement, or they started because somebody got fired.

Jody Sutter:

Right.

Drew McLellan:

I think agency owners are reticent to tell their agency history story in a way that sort of reveals the humanity behind it.

Jody Sutter:

Yeah.

Drew McLellan:

How would you counsel an agency owner how to construct the history of their agency in a way that’s interesting and sort of tells you what they’re all about and gives you a sense of kind of their essence in their brand?

Jody Sutter:

Yeah. Again, I think a lot of it does go back to the storytelling and the reason why stories are so compelling to us. At the very beginning of a story, there’s that trigger that changes everything for forever. So in The Wizard of Oz, it was like, Dorothy was literally in that whole home stasis of Kansas until the twister came, and was sent off to the Emerald City to Oz. And that draws you right in. So I think one of the things I try to do, is by illustrating how it works both in classic stories as well as other agencies who do do it well, to show that it’s that kind of trigger and that kind of journey and that kind of success born out of that journey, that makes their story so interesting.

Also, usually, by the time they’re pitching clients, they have moved beyond that initial trigger phase, that initial phase of upset. They are more than simply a startup agency struggling to pay the bills. Also, I try to point out that that also shows a certain tenacity and passion. Again, tenacity and passion, those are adjectives that can mean so much more when they actually are shown to have happened.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, because it sounds sort of arrogant, or a passion is another word that I think every agency uses when they talk about themselves.

Jody Sutter:

Yeah.

Drew McLellan:

It’s sort of like, if I say to you, “You know what, Jody, I am an honest guy,” you sort of wonder why I’m making a big point of telling you I’m honest. Right?

Jody Sutter:

Exactly.

Drew McLellan:

But when I demonstrate that I’m honest without saying a word, you begin to associate that trait with me.

Jody Sutter:

Exactly. And the other thing that we have is a checklist, that I can tell you more about. It’s an easy checklist of editorial checklist, six… No, I’m sorry. Actually, it’s five, five things that you could do to make your writing better right away. And one of them is to use adjectives carefully. I have a list of adjectives that agencies should ban forever, like passionate and relentless.

Drew McLellan:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jody Sutter:

And the same thing happens to me. I can’t necessarily speak for all clients or for all search consultants who review RFPs, but I know that from my perspective, when I read that, I do the same thing that you do, a red flag goes up. And I think, if they have to tell me that they’re relentless and passionate, it probably means that it’s not true.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Jody Sutter:

Or it probably means they’re not quite as relentless as they’d like to be. At best, it’s an aspirational statement.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Jody Sutter:

But if I’m going to hand you my business and pay you a lot of money every month, I don’t want aspiration. I want to see how we’re relentless you are. So I tell agencies also, with the word relentless, “Unless you’ve got shifts of people working around the clock, now that’s relentless.”

Drew McLellan:

Right, right.

Jody Sutter:

Otherwise, you got to show me, don’t tell me.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. Yeah. The other part about the agency history is, I think we all like to root for… I think of a story like Hercules or some of the classics, the hero often is a common man or woman who rises to some sort of bravery or excellence or whatever. I think, sometimes, agency owners are reticent to show their humanity and the fact that maybe they did come from humble beginnings, not personally, but I mean the agency itself, or maybe they have had struggles. But I think that’s part of what makes somebody actually connect with that agency. And ultimately, at the end of the day, that’s what our writing is supposed to do. Isn’t it? Is to make me have some sort of a connection to you that makes me want to know more or want to be around you or be with you because there’s something compelling about you at that very emotional level. And I think when you present too pristine a picture, there’s nothing for me to attach to.

Jody Sutter:

Yeah. I’m one of those people who believes that a chemistry plays a huge part in winning a piece of business or winning over a new client.

Drew McLellan:

Absolutely.

Jody Sutter:

So when you are in a later stage of a pitch and you can start to interrelate with the prospect, then a certain natural chemistry happens. But going back to this reality that your written word is usually the first thing that your clients see, you’re right, you have to take the type of chemistry that most agency owners or principals know. It’s so important to cultivate in a live meeting. You have to put that in written form for your emails, for your RFP responses, on your website. Yeah, you have to create that connection.

The other thing that I think happens is that, people are badly influenced by academia. They’re afraid of sounding like themselves. And then it’s also reinforced because they see their own clients write badly. So that’s something else I try to remind my clients is that, you don’t have a good example to look at on the other side of the fence. Your clients are also terrible writers.

Drew McLellan:

Right. Yeah. Don’t emulate them.

Jody Sutter:

Right.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Jody Sutter:

And I think when you’re younger, especially you see that, and you’re like, “Well, if my client is writing with that jargon and those technical words, then I should be echoing back.” Yeah, it doesn’t help things. So yes, my advice is, just because they write badly and overly formally in a bloated way, doesn’t mean that you have to. And also think about them, they’re human beings too.

One of the things I advise, this is more about getting ready to make a sales call but it also applies for writing an email, is that, when you have a cold or even a warm prospect, I always say, think about them not as your best friend because that’s too familiar, but think about communicating with a stranger as if they were your neighbor, or maybe your aunt who you only see a couple times a year, so someone who you relate to as another human being, but maybe with a little bit more formality because you don’t know them that well. But I think that sense, the idea of realizing that you’re talking to another human being who wakes up and takes their coffee black in the morning and had a bad commute at getting into the office, but feels happy when he or she looks at pictures of their kids, knowing that is going to help your writing.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. Right. I agree. You’ve mentioned a couple times your workshop. Tell us a little bit more about what that looks like.

Jody Sutter:

Sure. Well, one of the things that when we developed it, first of all, we wanted to make sure that agencies felt like they could customize it for their own needs. So, a lot of times we are working with agencies strictly with a new business focus. But we also did one recently for a large national agency that was more focused on their client briefs, and the inter-client communication or the client-agency communications through emails and briefings. Again, what we try to do, a lot of it is stuff that we’ve been talking about in this interview today, introduce things like storytelling, start to give them… What I want to do is, I don’t want to… I think too often people walk away sometimes from these workshops, nodding their heads in agreement, but without the tools to say, “Okay, now I know what to do next.” So we try very hard to equip people with techniques to actually change the writing. So things like the Pixar Pitch, one of the reasons why I love that so much is that, it’s so accessible.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. It’s a formula they can follow.

Jody Sutter:

Right.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Jody Sutter:

Or there are things like the checklist, which as I’d mentioned, there’s nothing surprising on this checklist. It’s probably stuff that has been introduced or maybe even drummed into you throughout school. But it’s using adjectives carefully, using the active and not the passive form of a sentence, simplifying your words, eliminating unnecessary words, all these things that using strong verbs, all these things that we forget about when we start to get sucked into this sort of whirling of using jargon and generalizations.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Jody Sutter:

Again, it goes back to this idea of editing too, on your first ground. So if you use a couple of overly complicated phrases, big deal, just give yourself the time to realize that you can simplify it, that sometimes one word will do where you’ve actually already written five.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Jody Sutter:

So those are also the types of exercises that we do. We also do a lot of just in time exercises. So if an agency is working on a big RFP response, or if an agency is in the middle of awards show season, and they want to make sure that they’re writing the best submissions possible, we will carve out part of the workshop to break out into different teams and actually work on the documents that they’re live documents. So I think that also, one, gets them writing better right away, and we’re helping to improve something, that they know they’ve got something.

Drew McLellan:

That’s real. That’s real.

Jody Sutter:

It’s real.

Drew McLellan:

Right. Yeah. Agencies, as a general rule, believe that they are great storytellers because it’s what they do for their clients all the time. So, how do you help an agency owner or an agency new business person see that even though they apply that skill in their daily work, they don’t really apply it to themselves? I’m imagining your sales call with an agency owner or something, and you’re talking about, “Well, we’ll teach you storytelling,” and I can hear the agency owner saying, “Well, we do storytelling every day.” I think they believe they do it well, whether they do or not. So how do you help them recognize or how would an agency owner sort of self-assess some of their own writing or their own website to see if this is something they actually should be thinking about?

Jody Sutter:

Well, unfortunately, a lot of times, we get the call when an agency is just lost. They’ve been eliminated from a big pitch in the RFP round, or, to go back to the example of the agency, the agency president was so distressed by the briefs that he was seeing or the emails that he was seeing. So he was sort of the champion and said, “We got to do something about this.”

Drew McLellan:

Because he wasn’t happy with his people’s skill level.

Jody Sutter:

Right.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jody Sutter:

So it requires a champion or it requires someone to say, “You know what? I think there’s a problem here.” Yeah, I think if people don’t think they have a problem, it’s very difficult for me to convince them otherwise. But it’s also one of the reasons why I try to lead with… My pitch is led with this idea of getting people to think about, and I think it’s how we open the podcast, think about how often your written word is the first thing your prospect seen.

Drew McLellan:

Right. Right.

Jody Sutter:

Now, if someone’s convinced that their written word is effective, then there’s not much that I can think-

Drew McLellan:

Pearls of wisdom, right?

Jody Sutter:

Right. But if they really start thinking about it, maybe look at their last prospecting email or think about the struggle that they had putting that RFP or the website, then I think there’s a moment of realization.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Jody Sutter:

But it actually is giving me other ideas, maybe what I should do is pull together… Well, a lot of times in the workshops too, with permission and with thorough screening, we sometimes show back the poor writing.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Jody Sutter:

So we will go back and say, “Look, here’s an example of some of the writing that was identified by either you or people you work with, or who you work for, as writing that’s not meeting the grade.” And then we work with them to, again, apply the things that we’ve taught them, to show how it can be improved. And so that takes a special group that takes people who have to be really willing to admit that they need improvement.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Jody Sutter:

We’ve sort of developed an archive of bad writing.

Drew McLellan:

Samples. Right.

Jody Sutter:

Samples. Right. So, hopefully people will see, or people will likely see themselves in these samples, even though it’s not their writing.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Jody Sutter:

So it’s a little bit more removed. They can sort of smile in a guilty way, but still be willing to understand how to improve it as opposed to feeling like they’re being called out. But we really try to use real examples that show like, “Here’s what you’re doing now. Here’s how we’re going to help you improve.”

Drew McLellan:

And I don’t care how good a writer you are, there is always room for improvement. So even if you believe your agency has some folks that are really strong writers, or you really think your agency history is brilliantly written, I would assume that there’s enough sort of levels of improvement made that at the end of the workshop or at the end of however, somebody would interact with you, they’re feeling a lot better about their writing.

Jody Sutter:

Yes. Yeah.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Jody Sutter:

Another one of the icons that we use and refer to in our workshop, is an author named William Zinsser who, for many years, was a writer for the New York Herald Tribune. He then was a writer for The New Yorker, and then he went on to teach writing, but non-fiction writing, at Yale, and then the new school. He actually just died this past year at the very rifled age of, I think, 92 or something.

Drew McLellan:

Wow.

Jody Sutter:

But he wrote a book called On Writing Well, and one of the anecdotes that we used, talk about champions, is when my partner, the workshops, Ashley Milne-Tyte… Before becoming a journalist, she was in the agency world and she was working at the time for Ammirati Puris Lintas, back when they existed, I guess. She remembers coming in one day early, and on everyone’s desk in her department was a copy of William Zinssers’s book On Writing Well, and with a note that said, essentially, “I’m sick and tired of seeing such bad writing coming out of this department. This is required reading and then apply what you learn.” So, one of the things William Zinsser does in his introduction, is he shows a shot of a late galley of the book. And he shows where all the editing marks are, the cross-outs, and the additions and changes. And he points out that this is the fourth or fifth time that this galley has been edited and there’s still so many changes being made.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Jody Sutter:

So yeah, the point is that, it does take time, it takes rounds of revision, and there’s usually always something you can do to improve your writing.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. So I know that a lot of people are listening and they’re thinking, whether they think their own writing is brilliant or not. They’re frustrated with maybe some staff writing or, particularly, I think sometimes they’re young staff, and the writing skills. So if people are listening and they want to, on their own, make some improvements in the way the agency presents itself through all facets. So from everything, from client briefs and emails to clients, to RFP responses, the agency history, the website copy, what are some things that they can do on their own to up the game of their writing?

Jody Sutter:

Yeah. Well, certainly there are so many great resources that already exist out there. And I mentioned some of them, Zinsser’s book On Writing Well, Laura Brown’s book How to Write Anything. Then, I’d be happy to share some of the techniques that we use, make them available to your audience, that checklist that I’d mentioned earlier. So the checklist, what I love about it, is that you don’t need to think that much about it. Right? So if you’re following the checklist, you can do things. It makes it easier to do things, like notice that when you use the word utilize, maybe you should use the word use, or instead of saying, due to the fact that, just use because. And I think what happens is, if you can start applying that checklist, you don’t even have to think that hard about it.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Jody Sutter:

Your writing is going to improve immeasurably. So that’s the first thing that they can do. And then I’ll also make available the Pixar Pitch, which is really a fun way to start to learn how to tell a story better. It sort of meant as a remedial tool. You’re not going to apply the Pixar Pitch method and then submit that to a client, but it’s going to help you infuse a little bit of life to your case study or agency history or a bio, that just gets you a little bit farther, infuses personality and emotion, and then you can tweak it in a more professional way for clients or something.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. Great. [crosstalk 00:45:06] Yeah, that’ll be great. All of those things, folks, will be attached to the show notes. So be sure that you go download all of those tools. Okay. Any any other thoughts, Jody, about that?

Jody Sutter:

Well, we were able to cover so much in a short period of time. So I would say that, just to reinforce that, it takes practice, like anything that you need to do well takes practice. And I think sometimes that can be a hard thing to say, and even harder to understand, but it takes practice. It takes time. Writing is probably 10% writing and 90% editing. Actually. I’ll take that back. 10% writing, 80% editing and 10% proofreading.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Jody Sutter:

And yeah, go in it with some glee and don’t be afraid to be yourself.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. That may be the best advice you’ve given all day, is don’t be afraid to be yourself.

Jody Sutter:

Yeah.

Drew McLellan:

I think so many times agencies try to sound different than themselves.

Jody Sutter:

Yeah.

Drew McLellan:

It’s almost they’re apologetic for their humanity. And I think they completely missed the point. I’ll add one more, obviously, reaching out to Jody and learning more about her workshop probably is a good plan too. So, Jody, if folks want to learn more about you and about your workshop and the other work you do with agencies, how do they track you down?

Jody Sutter:

Well, you can go to my website, which is thesuttercompany.com or you can email me at [email protected]. I’m also on Twitter at @JodySutter. And that’s Jody with a Y. Again, if you would like, I’d also be happy to include all that information in the show notes as well.

Drew McLellan:

Yep. We for sure will include your contact information there as well. Jody, thank you so much. There are probably very few things that would have more impact on an agency’s bottom line than if they became better writers, both for themselves and for their clients. So this has been packed with great information that I’m hoping everybody puts into play right away. Thank you so much for your time and for sharing your expertise with us today.

Jody Sutter:

Oh, thank you for having me. It was really fun.

Drew McLellan:

It was fun. Okay, listeners, this wraps up another episode of Build a Better Agency. I hope you were taking notes. I hope you’re right now while you’re listening, not if you’re on a treadmill or driving, but otherwise that you are also looking at your website and identifying places where you can apply some of the things that Jody talked about to present yourself in a more authentic way and in a way that makes you distinct from everybody else.

Please come on back next week for another episode. If you have not subscribed, please do that so you don’t miss another episode. I’d hate for you to miss hearing from folks like Jody because you just forgot to check it out, so subscribe. And as always, I would love to hear from you. You can reach me at [email protected]. Anytime, if you have an idea about another show or a topic you’d like to hear more about, be happy to receive that email and have a conversation with you. Thanks much. Have a great week. I will see you next week.

Speaker 1:

That’s all for this episode of Build a Better Agency. Be sure to visit agencymanagementinstitute.com to learn more about our workshops and other ways we serve small to mid-sized agencies. While you’re there, sign up for our e-newsletter, grab our free e-book, and check out the blog. Growing up bigger, better agency that makes more money, attracts bigger clients, and doesn’t consume your life is possible here on Build a Better Agency.