The “Magnificent 7” of leveraging a book to find right-fit clients with Henry DeVries

Speaker 1:

If you’re going to take the risk of running an agency, shouldn’t you get the benefits too? Welcome to Agency Management Institute’s Build a Better Agency Podcast presented by White Label IQ. Tune in every week for insights on how small to midsize agencies are surviving and thriving in today’s market. We’ll show you how to make more money and keep more of what you make. We want to help you build an agency that is sustainable, scalable, and if you want, down the road sellable. With 25 plus years of experience as both an agency owner and agency consultant, please welcome your host, Drew McClellan.

Drew McClellan:

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Build a Better Agency. Glad to have you with us. This is Drew McClellan from Agency Management Institute. Super happy to spend some time with you today. Thanks for coming back if you’re a regular listener. And if you are a first-time listener, welcome, glad to have you. I think this week’s episode is pretty indicative of the kind of work we try and do on the podcast, which is give you guys really practical, tangible things to think about or to take into practice, or maybe some things to stop doing. Sometimes we’re just here to try and be super helpful and informative and just help you think about the business and make you feel a little less alone in running the agency.

So two reminders before I let you find out who we’re going to hang out with today. One, the Build a Better Agency Podcast Facebook group. So again, you would go to Facebook and search for Build a Better Agency Podcast, and then it’ll take you to the private group. You have to answer three questions. Do you own an agency? And if so, what’s the URL? What are you most interested in talking about or learning about? And will you be nice? Basically, will you follow the rules, and then we’ll let you in. So we would love to have you. There’s over 1100 agency owners in there now who are talking every day about everything from contracts to remote workers, to master service agreements, to all the things that we worry about and wish we could talk to other agency owners about. So we would love to have you there.

Also, want to remind you that Money Matters, the workshop we teach and all we do is talk about money, everything from taxes to financial benchmarks, to the metrics that matter, to proposal writing, all of those things. We spend two days talking about money. That one is coming up on December 5th and 6th in Orlando. I’m sure all of you know December 5th is actually Walt Disney’s birthday. So it’s perfect to be in Orlando on Disney property to celebrate Walt’s birthday and to talk about money and your agency and how you can make more money and keep more of the money you make. So if you’re interested in that workshop, it’s probably one of our most popular workshops. It’s probably the workshop that people repeat the most. That workshop is on the Agency Management Institute website. So if you go to the tab that says How We Help, and you scroll down to workshops, you’ll see Money Matters. We only offer it once a year. So this is your shot December 5th and 5th in Orlando.

All right, so let me tell you a little bit about our guest. So Henry DeVries is a really interesting guy. He is a journalist by training and by trade early in his career. Worked for agencies, owned an agency, was on staff at a university teaching marketing for many years, writes for forbes.com, and he created, I think about a decade ago, but I’ll ask him, created a company helping agency owners write a book and used that book as a marketing tool to leverage finding right fit clients and then selling to those prospects.

So what I want to talk to Henry about today is just sort of the process of why this matters. I’m hoping we can get to the process of how to write the book, but I suspect we’ll have to have him back for that. But anyway, I want to talk to him about why being an author matters to agency owners and how we can leverage it inside our business. So that’s going to be the topic for today. He’s a great guy and I think you will enjoy learning from him. So without any further ado, let’s welcome him to the show. Henry, welcome to the podcast. Glad to have you.

Henry DeVries:

Sure. It’s so great to be here to help small to midsize agency owners.

Drew McClellan:

I love it. So give everybody a little bit of background, what you have been doing professionally that has led you to the point that you are in now, and then we’ll go from there.

Henry DeVries:

I run a company called Indie Books International. I started it eight years ago when I failed retirement from the University of California, San Diego. I was the assistant dean for continuing education and faculty on marketing. And somehow these agency owners and consultants had found me to be a ghostwriter and I had to go tell the university, I loved the university, but I loved helping these people more and I needed to form a company so they could get their books in print successfully and happily.

Drew McClellan:

And you’re doing other things as well, right? You’re writing for Forbes and you have a couple other side hustles on top of your business, right?

Henry DeVries:

Yeah. My side hustle is for the last five years, I’ve written a weekly column for forbes.com, and I started out as a journalist in the associated press covering pro sports, baseball, football, basketball, and then went into agency life, eventually became the president of someone else’s agency and doubled billings, and then figured it would be better to own my own lemonade stand and started that and grew that to five people. Then the university came knocking and said, “We’d like you to be our chief marketing officer and also teach.” And I did that for a number of years until I flunked retirement and started Indie Books eight years ago.

Drew McClellan:

So sometime you and I are going to do a podcast and all we’re going to talk about are the Dodgers and Disney, but not today. But one of these days, even if we don’t record it, we’re going to that.

Henry DeVries:

Okay. Okay.

Drew McClellan:

All right. So let’s talk about, I think you and I were saying before I hit the record button, I think everybody aspire… Everyone who owns an agency or is a leader in an agency, there is something super appealing about being an author. When I wrote my first book, I’m not sure, I think my parents have been proud of me at moments in my life for lots of things, but I’m not really sure that anything was bigger than I walked into my mom’s house and I had sent her a PDF of my book cover and she had it on the fridge, like I was a kindergartner and that was my A+ for her. And she’s never put any of my other work on the fridge.

So there is just something gratifying and humbling, but also you of feel like you’ve made it when you’ve written a book. A, I think a lot of people listening aspire to write a book or have written a book. B, I think the people who are listening who aspire to write a book think that it’s super hard or maybe it’s selfish to do, to take their time away from the agency, but you and I hold a different opinion about that. So let’s talk about why you believe a book is the number one marketing tool for an agency.

Henry DeVries:

Yes, that’s one of the truths, one of the insights that a book is the number one marketing tool. And speaking about the book is the number one selling strategy to find new clients. And that’s because the world respects authors. More than that, and people say, “Oh, well, the book is a business card, or the book is a brochure.” No, the book is an ordeal you went through and your best thinking went into that book. And when two other agencies say, “Trust me,” you can say, “Well, there’s a lot of mistakes that can be made in this field. I’d like to give you a copy of my book. It outlines our best thinking on this. It tells you about your process, your proprietary research that you’ve done, your proprietary process. Very differentiating.”

Drew McClellan:

So I’m curious, how do you help an author or an agency owner? How do you help them identify the topic of the books? I think one of the things I find when I talk to agency owners is I’ll say, “Well, you know what? You could speak on that, or you could whatever.” And they’re like, “Oh, everybody knows that.”

Henry DeVries:

Yeah, that’s my parlor trick. That’s something I know. That’s no big deal.

Drew McClellan:

Or they say, “I don’t want to give away the secret sauce.” One of the two, right? Either they-

Henry DeVries:

Oh, yeah.

Drew McClellan:

Yes. They dismiss what they know, or they value it so much, they keep it in the brain vault and no one can know. So how do you help them find solutions to both of those dichotomies?

Henry DeVries:

Let’s take secret sauce first. I love movies, and one of my favorite movies is Fast Times at Ridgemont High and the people who want to-

Drew McClellan:

That speaks volumes about you, Henry.

Henry DeVries:

So two people who work at a fast food restaurant compare notes and, “Our secret sauce is mayonnaise and ketchup.” And he goes, “Our secret sauce is mayonnaise, ketchup, and mustard.” They’re no secret sauces. So everybody’s afraid that they’re going to give the secret sauce away. Our research is shown, The more you give away, the more people are convinced there’s something behind the curtain you’re not sharing. And the real takeaway is they want you to apply the secret sauce to them. So they find this information very comforting. The assumption, Drew, is that we’re winging it. We’re doing their marketing campaign and we’re winging it. And that’s not the truth. So you need to demonstrate that.

The other thing is, the question was, it’s so hard or it’s not that important or all this, well, I help people show that yes, what they have is important because they’ve taken the best practices. I say the insight is offer help, not hype. This is not hype about how great you are, adjectives and all that, not about that at all. It’s about understanding the number one problem, the number one pain point for your target audience. So you know your target audience, you know them so well, when they read the first chapter of your book, they go, “This person is talking to me. She must have been listening in on us. He must have lived through this, so they understand it.” So in my book, Marketing With a Book for agency owners, it addresses that number one pain of three out of five agency owners. How do I find enough new clients? How do I find right fit clients? As the wrong fit clients, oh man, you wish you’d never found them.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah, yeah. And we’ve all had those, right? Yeah.

Henry DeVries:

Oh yeah, yeah. The client from hell stories.

Drew McClellan:

Which by the way is a great client for someone else. It’s not that they’re a bad client. And that’s, I think the nuance is that they’re a bad client for us, for our skillsets, our team, our whatever, right? Yeah.

Henry DeVries:

Yeah. It’s fit. They’re not the right fit for you, for someone else-

Drew McClellan:

They’d be fine.

Henry DeVries:

Yeah. Yeah.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. When agency owners talk about they don’t want to show people behind the curtain or show the secret sauce, I liken it to we’ve all gone to a restaurant and fallen in love with a dish and asked the waiter if the chef would share the recipe. And a lot of times they will and they will, knowing that you’re going to try and make it at home. But it’s not just the food, it’s also the ambiance and that somebody else cooked it for you. And by the way, they went to chef school. You did not. So even when we give away all the secrets, that is different than a client or a prospect being able to actually replicate the recipe exactly the way we do, because they can’t bring some of the things we bring: the outside perspective, the years of expertise and all of that. So as you know, Steven and I in Sell with Authority, pounded home to help not hype, that you need to help as much as you can, relentlessly helpful.

Henry DeVries:

Relentlessly helpful. I love that line. I quote it sometimes. I quote it, I don’t steal it.

Drew McClellan:

No, you can steal it. There’s no secret sauce.

Henry DeVries:

Well, is it the first time you attribute it and the second time you say, “I always say…”

Drew McClellan:

Yeah, that’s right.

Henry DeVries:

Yeah, yeah.

Drew McClellan:

Okay. So what about the people who believe that what they know is common knowledge? Like, “Oh, everybody knows that.”

Henry DeVries:

“Everybody knows that.”

Drew McClellan:

No one will read a book about that. How do you help them through that?

Henry DeVries:

One of the things I advise people is make it research, not rehash. You have to think of yourself as a journalist and you’re taking the topic. I don’t want to get all research geeky here, but you either do primary research where you’re actually interviewing people or you do secondary research where there is a lot of information out there. Drew, if you kill somebody, the best place to hide the body is on the second page of a Google Search, because people don’t look there. I’ve gone through 80 pages on Google to find some of the studies that I quote in my book. One, because I’m Dutch and I’m cheap, copper wire was invented when two Dutchmen fought over a penny.

So I don’t like to pay $5,000 for a research study when with some sleuthing on the internet I can find that data and share it. So we can get the data there, but also, I really advocate in-depth interviews with your target prospect. I love the subtitle, how Smart (blanks) Do (blank). So when you interview people, I mean, it’s a book about how smart agency owners find new clients. Well, that’s the embedded compliment. Oh gosh, I guess they think I’m smart and they want to-

Drew McClellan:

Right. Right.

Henry DeVries:

Forbes.com, I’m interviewing 60 people a year on that. And that information is research.

Drew McClellan:

Right. That’s right. So here’s how I’m translating what you said, which is the book isn’t about how smart you are necessarily, or how unique your idea is. It’s how you apply your thinking and some data to whatever the problem is you want your book to help solve. Yes?

Henry DeVries:

Absolutely. And what you’re doing is analyzing the information, breaking the information down. Either here’s new information on the subject, or more information on the subject, or better information on the subject. Heck, you could be a contrarian. Here’s different information on the subject and you present that. You’re adding to the body of knowledge. There’s an old saying, a Major League Baseball player said that, “Being a Major League Baseball player is no big deal if you’re a Major League Baseball player.” So being a marketing expert, marketing’s no big deal if you’re a marketing expert. But to your prospects, this could be stem cell research or how electricity works. To them, it is fresh and new information and proves your expertise, your authority.

Drew McClellan:

I wrote a marketing column for my state’s business journal for 20 years. So 52 weeks a year, 20 years. And in the beginning when I started, I felt like every column had to be the Mona Lisa of marketing ideas. And by the way, I only had 600 words. So what I learned very quickly was it didn’t have to be the Mona Lisa. It could be something they already knew, but they weren’t applying. It could be something that they knew, but had forgotten. It could be something brand new that they had never thought about. It could be taking something they know and something they don’t know and weaving them together.

As soon as I took that pressure off myself of I had to shake the world up with every freaking column, and I realized it was really about being consistent in driving home sort of what I think of are the core tenets of marketing, and then using real life current examples to sort of illustrate those points, it got a lot easier for me to get over myself, number one. And number two, it got a lot easier to write a column every stinking week for 20 years. And number three, the columns that I wrote that I often thought, this is kind of a throwaway, this isn’t awesome, were often the comments I got the most feedback from the paper’s readers from, was that those were the ones that resonated with them or that connected with them or inspired them to do something or fill in the blank. So we also, I think, make some assumptions about our audience and what they know that we probably need to put aside when we are crafting a book or a column or anything that we’re producing, but certainly a book.

Henry DeVries:

A book or a blog. For some people it’s a blog, which I would recommend to do on LinkedIn. Not create your own blog site these days, but do it on articles on LinkedIn. And these blogs add up to a book. It’s the blog to book strategy we call it. And just like all your columns, Drew, there’s a saying in Hollywood, we’re judged on the body of our work.

Drew McClellan:

That’s right. Yeah.

Henry DeVries:

It’s the body of our work.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. So let’s say somebody writes a book, they get it done because what I heard you say was your book is your number one marketing tool. Speaking is your number one selling tool, which I completely agree with. There’s nothing better than having another organization or company determine you are an expert and put you on a stage in front of your core audience. So let’s talk a little bit about what you do with the book after it’s done.

Henry DeVries:

Hey, so again, I like movies, and this one is The Magnificent Seven, and you might like the Denzel Washington version, or you go all the way back to you like the Yul Brynner version. Heck, you might even like the Seven Samurai from the ’50s in Japan where it all came from. But my Magnificent Seven are these are the magnificent seven ways to leverage the book. Number one, put on small-scale seminars, five to 10 people. You can do them face to face, you can do them virtually on Zoom, Zoominars, if you wish. And I’ve done over a hundred of these and have generated millions of dollars in revenue from them.

Drew McClellan:

So hang on. How did you get the audience to attend your webinars? How did you tell them about it?

Henry DeVries:

Okay. It’s a LinkedIn strategy. I can go deeper on it, but I found if I invite 200 people in the target audience, a hundred will accept my invitation and 10 will attend. And then from those 10 who attend, I’ll get two clients out of it. I’ve interviewed people in other industries like financial services, and the same ratios hold true for them. So you have to know your right audience. When you offer the LinkedIn to them, they need to look at your profile page and go, “Oh, this would be somebody valuable for me to know.” So no picture with you and two other people and a dog on your LinkedIn profile. No picture like you’re in the witness protection program. No. It has to be a fully built out and valuable LinkedIn profile. Not to go too long, but the about you is not that you were born in a log cabin and walked five miles to return books. It has to be an essay, a white paper that has helpful information to them.

All the time you’re like a basketball team on the fast break offense like, “Here’s help! Here’s help! Here’s help! I’m helping you every which way.” You and Steven are just masters at this. Okay, so you’re helping. And then, okay, well, I’ll do that. And then the invitation. And I’ve done them where I charge $25, I’ve done them at no cost. There’s pros and cons to both ways, but you get five to 10 people in the room and it’s a conversation, not a speech. You’re asking them questions. And I’ve talked to over a thousand people this way, and a lot of great information came out from what people said in that exchange.

Drew McClellan:

Right. Well, that’s one of the ways you do research, right?

Henry DeVries:

Yes. I’ve done research also with focus groups. Oh, would you like a dirty little secret about-

Drew McClellan:

Yeah, absolutely.

Henry DeVries:

… what clients say about small to midsize agencies and focus groups when they’re talking with me?

Drew McClellan:

Yeah.

Henry DeVries:

Okay. Well, one thing they say, “Oh, these people always talk about how long they’ve been in business, and I’ve been golfing longer than Tiger Woods. That doesn’t really matter how long you’ve been in business.” And two, they talk about size and they always say, “We’re just the right size for you, small enough for personal attention, big enough to get the job done.” They say, “We laugh when we hear that people with one employee say that and people with 300 employees say that.”

Drew McClellan:

Right. Right. It’s like the famous line is, “We’re a full service integrated marketing agency.”

Henry DeVries:

Oh, yes. That’ll differentiate you.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. Right.

Henry DeVries:

“We believe the magic is in the marketing mix.”

Drew McClellan:

That’s right.

Henry DeVries:

“Our people make the difference.” Oh, they laugh at that. They say, “Your people come and go.” And everybody says their people make the difference. The other one is that they said, “There’s something that you’re horrible at.” I said, “What is it?” They said, “Talking about money. Oh, you are the worst at talking about money. So how much do you charge?” One person said, “It’s so frustrating, Henry. It’s like, I go to a restaurant and they have no menus.” I said, “What do you mean?” He says, “Well, you go to the restaurant and you ask for a menu. And they say, ‘Well, we don’t really have menus. We like to have conversations with our customers. What are you interested in?’” And he goes, “I don’t know, maybe chicken.” There’s a lot that goes into chicken.

Do you mind if I ask you some followup chicken questions? What’s been your experience with chicken before? Do you have a chicken budget? If I could solve all your chicken problems, what would that be worth to you? Then they want to go away for a week and come back. So don’t be frustrating people with the chicken questions. You should have a menu. But that’s for another podcast.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah, that’s right. Another conversation. All right. So the first one was, the first of your magnificent seven, right?

Henry DeVries:

Is small-scale seminars.

Drew McClellan:

Small-scale conversations, however you decide to do that.

Henry DeVries:

Sure.

Drew McClellan:

Okay.

Henry DeVries:

Number two, speaking, getting on other people’s stages. And I include podcasting. I used to say, just get on other people’s podcasts like I’m on yours. You’ve assembled an audience, you’re 150 countries. That’s great. I also podcast now and invite people to be on the podcast. And that helps build relationships with people as I interview them. And you get a couple of good things out of it. One, you’ll get somebody who’s an advocate and referral source. “Oh, you need a book. I know a guy.” Or two, people will say, “Oh, what would it look like if you did that for me? Does it come in yellow? Can I have it by next Tuesday?” They’ll ask those questions and you’ll have a meaningful conversation. That’s number two.

Drew McClellan:

So hang on, I want to talk about that for a minute, and then we’re going to take a quick break and get the last five. But I think one of the mistakes a lot of people make, and it’s not just agency owners, I think a lot of people make this mistake, is they choose the wrong stages. So when you are smart and articulate, you can find ways to speak at podcasts, conferences, whatever it is. But I think we often choose what I call ego stages rather than revenue stages.

So I get invited to speak at a lot of marketing conferences where all my marketing friends hang out. That’s a blast. I love that. That is fun for me, but not one person in that audience is a potential client for AMI, right? So I can go, and I’m not saying you can’t do these things, I’m just saying be smart about what you’re choosing because we have finite time. I can go and I can be on someone’s podcast and talk about marketing trends or whatever, because I’ve been in the business for a long time. Or I can go on a smaller podcast that’s aimed at agency owners and leaders and I can have a conversation around some of the core things that I know about. One is an ego show or play or ego/fun play and the other one is really about growing the business.

Henry DeVries:

One of my clients was a pilot in the Air Force and he taught me the concept of the target-rich environment and we need to seek out a target-rich environment. So in my book, Self-Marketing Secrets, I quoted Groucho Marx and said, “Don’t join any club that would have you as a member. Don’t go network at the ad club where the other ad agencies hang out.” I sought to diversify our agency and I went to the Hotel & Motel Association and asked to join, and the woman said, “Well, I’m confused.” And I said, “Why are you confused?” “Well, Henry, you’re the only advertising agency that has asked to join the Hotel & Motel Association.”

Drew McClellan:

Perfect.

Henry DeVries:

And I thought, in my mind, excellent. And within a year I had three hotels as clients.

Drew McClellan:

That’s right. All right, we’re going to take a quick break and then we’re going to come back and get the last five of your magnificent seven. So everybody sit tight, we’ll be right back.

Hey, sorry to interrupt, but I wanted to make sure that you are thinking about how to connect with your clients by figuring out what they love and maybe a few things that they’re not so crazy about with your agency. So at AMI, one of the things we offer are client satisfaction surveys. We do both quantitative and qualitative. So an online survey, but also interviews with some of your key clients. And then we come back to you with trends, recommendations, what they love, what they don’t love. Lots of insights around how you can create an even tighter relationship with your clients.

So if you have interest in that, you can go under the How We Help tab on the AMI website. And the very bottom choice on the How We Help tab is the client satisfaction surveys. You can read more about it. But whether you have us do it or you do it yourself or you hire somebody else, it is really critical that you be talking to your clients about what they love and what they wish was different or better. So do not miss the opportunity to tighten your relationship with your client, whether we help you or not. All right? All right. Let’s get back to the show.

All right, we are back and we’re talking about the power of being an author and how you can leverage that to grow your shop. So we got the first two of the magnificent seven, which was number one, hold small conversations/webinars. Number two, Henry was… Speak.

Henry DeVries:

Get on stages, start speaking. Speak up and often to your target-rich environment.

Drew McClellan:

Yes. Number three is…

Henry DeVries:

Get published. And there’s a spectrum of publishing. On one side of the spectrum is putting articles on your LinkedIn profile. You can do it today, it’s no cost. The other end of the spectrum is a New York Times Bestseller. I am not there yet. I am one step over. I am an amazon.com number one bestseller in four categories, not for a day, for an hour. A hundred days on the bestseller list. It was the book, How to Close a Deal like Warren Buffet, international bestseller from McGraw-Hill, now in Chinese.

Drew McClellan:

Nice.

Henry DeVries:

Yeah, nice. My books are my children, Drew, and like my children, I expect them to take care of me in my old age. So I have 17 books. I think that’s the best book I’ve written so far, and the world agrees. So, that’s nice. I hear I’m big in China. Okay. So the other steps along the way to get published-

Drew McClellan:

Well, you would be tall in China.

Henry DeVries:

What’s that?

Drew McClellan:

I said you would be tall in China, for sure.

Henry DeVries:

I would be tall in-

Drew McClellan:

Yeah.

Henry DeVries:

Oh, he said that joke, not me. Okay. So forbes.com is in the middle of that spectrum. I’ve written for CBS MoneyWatch, inc.com. I wrote for my local business journal for years. I wrote for the daily newspaper in San Diego, the Metro Daily. Heck, I started with the San Diego Daily Transcript, 10,000 circulation. It’s that place where you announce lawsuits and liens and permits, and they need some articles so all those ads don’t run into each other. So I started as a free columnist there. It’s a spectrum. You work your way up. I’ve interviewed some people who land the gig for the trade journal for the industry that they’re targeting. That is solid gold. Think of it like a full page ad they give you every month in there and people clip them out, they save them, they put it in a file, and then when they need your expertise, who are they going to go to?

Drew McClellan:

Yep. I had that happen many times in my agency actually. So I think the other way to think about the publishing spectrum is some agency owners think about self-publishing. Other people think about going to McGraw-Hill. So talk about that spectrum.

Henry DeVries:

Yeah. There is a spectrum there and there’s three choices. So traditional publishing and that’s, you sell your intellectual property for a royalty when you can catch them, by the way. I think the accountant that’s hated in the publishing industry is the one who actually paid authors royalties after [inaudible 00:30:30] their initial advance. But that’s McGraw-Hill, Simon & Schuster, Penguin, Wiley, this group, people know the names. Also, the university presses. I’ve got one of my clients with Stanford University Press, and she was always quick to say, “Oh, my book from Stanford University Press of…”

So it’s some bragging rights to be in traditional. Here’s the challenge. They want a proposal. They want a business plan that proves to them you can sell 10,000 books in the first year and potentially for years after that. And for that they’re going to give you 15% of the profits and they will keep 85. So the other side is self-publishing, which I call a dirty S-word. Don’t use the S-word. Even if you do that, don’t ever say your book is self-published. There’s a stigma to self-published. Say you independently published the book. I don’t know. You’re in Colorado, you might create the Rocky High Press and do one book.

Drew McClellan:

Riverbend Publishing right here.

Henry DeVries:

Oh, there you go. Now in the middle ground is indie publishers. There’s 70,000 of us in the United States. We have an association, the Indie Book Publishers of America, and we’re a hybrid. We have the rigor of traditional publishing. A lot of my people have worked for Random House and the other big firms, and then we let you keep 100% of your intellectual property.

Drew McClellan:

Right. You have a different financial model too though. So you own your IP-

Henry DeVries:

It is a different financial model.

Drew McClellan:

And the money thing is different. Right.

Henry DeVries:

How do I liken it to? Indie films or indie records where the creator pays for bringing the product to market and then keeps the lion share of… It’s that 85/15 switch where you’re keeping the 85. And I can do quick math that if you sold 2,000 books, you’re going to make more with an indie publishing model. Your first 1,000 books are going to get you to a net cost of zero. The next 1,000, you’re going to make more than if you sold 10,000 with a traditional publisher. So those are the three models, and I really recommend people invest all three. If you ask me my favorite, I quote Warren Buffet, “Don’t ask a barber if you need a haircut.” Don’t ask an indie publisher which model he thinks is best.

Drew McClellan:

Right. And I’ve actually done all three and the processes are very different. I never wrote a book to make a lot of money. That’s a business book. My murder mystery, that’s the one that’s going to make a lot of money if I can actually carve out time to write it.

Henry DeVries:

And the screen play, Drew, the screen screenplay is where more money’s at?

Drew McClellan:

Yes. Okay. Right. I’m on it. I’m on that.

Henry DeVries:

You’re on it. Okay.

Drew McClellan:

You’re right. The experience is very different. And we’ll talk later if we have time, otherwise we’ll have you back about sort of what… Because I know many people are like, “I want to do it, but I don’t have the talent, I don’t have the time, I don’t have…” There’s a lot of barriers in our heads about not writing a book. But I want to keep going with the magnificent seven. Number three was get published.

Henry DeVries:

In that next podcast I’ll tell you how I helped a president of a top 10 pharma during the middle of COVID write his book. And it just took an hour a week for 16 weeks. Okay, so number three was get published. There’s a spectrum you do those things. Four and five are related. Four and five is a variation of the old networking. Four is you find the target-rich association, like I found the Hotel Motel Association, and then you get involved. I always suggest the membership committee. They’re always looking for people to be on the membership committee. And that’s like letting the fox into the henhouse because when I was on the membership committee, I called every hotel in town that wasn’t a member of the Hotel & Motel Association. And they’d always ask, “Oh, do you own a hotel?” I said, “Oh, no, no. Oh, I run an advertising agency.”

Drew McClellan:

That specializes in hotels and motels, right?

Henry DeVries:

Yeah. “We’re looking for an agency.” I said, “Oh, that’s interesting. Let’s keep talking about the Hotel & Motel Association.” I would never just directly go for it. I’d do that. Then I’d make them say, “Well, could we have another call about the other thing?” I’d pause three seconds for dignity.

Drew McClellan:

Right.

Henry DeVries:

“Thank you for asking. Yes, I’d be happy to have that call.” So yeah, free strategy call on how to put more heads in beds. Always happy to do that. Feeds and sheets, that’s the other thing. So networking is when you go to the event and you talk to people. And it’s not about how many times you can run around handing out a business card. When I was the agency owner, I had this woman I hired and she was fantastic. She came out of politics and she was smart, she was funny, she was attractive. And she said, “I’m the most amazing networker. You must take me to your next networking function.” So the Chamber of Commerce was having an event that week. I took her along and I saw her in an hour hand her business card to 130 people. And I thought, wow, I must never take her to another networking event again.

Drew McClellan:

Right. That’s right.

Henry DeVries:

Because it’s really about engaging people in conversations and seeing how you could be helpful and introduce them. Relentlessly helpful, you do that and the more helpful you are, the luckier you’re going to get with business development. When you’re the author, you can also say, “Oh, you can be generous with your book.” “Well, that’s interesting. I’ve written a book on that subject. May I give you a copy?”

Drew McClellan:

Fan mail [Inaudible 00:36:29].

Henry DeVries:

You can either give them a physical copy or a digital copy. Electrons are free, by the way. So you can determine which one-

Drew McClellan:

There is magic about getting a book in the mail, a physical book.

Henry DeVries:

Physical book. Touch, feel, hold. Yeah.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. Cuddle at night.

Henry DeVries:

And you can’t throw them away, because your fourth grade teacher says it’s a sin to throw a book away.

Drew McClellan:

That is so true.

Henry DeVries:

And whenever they’re talking about banning books, it’s never the good guys who are banning books, throwing books away or burning books. Those aren’t the good guys. So you want to keep your book or you have to give it to somebody.

Drew McClellan:

Great. Pass it along.

Henry DeVries:

And it’s the gift that keeps giving. Yeah.

Drew McClellan:

Yep. Yeah.

Henry DeVries:

Okay. Number six is YouTube. YouTube and do short how-to videos about the book. Book trailers, we call them. And I’m a sinner, Drew, I’ve done long videos thinking that somebody’s going to watch my one hour of brilliance, my half hour of brilliance. They like my two minutes of brilliance. “Oh, I got time for that. 10 minutes, I ain’t got time for that.”

Drew McClellan:

It’s funny, we do two videos a week. One comes out on Monday or Tuesday and one comes out on Sunday and the one on Sunday only goes to our mailing list. None of them are longer than six minutes. And people will say to me, “I love your videos. I’ve never actually watched one,” because we include the transcript. And they’ll go, “I don’t have time to watch it, but I’ll read the transcript. I love the content.” And I’m thinking, my god, they’re three minutes long. So to your point, people do not have the tolerance to watch longer videos.

Henry DeVries:

We have evidence that just sending the video and that topic builds the credibility you need. They don’t actually have to go into the content.

Drew McClellan:

Right. No one needs to know you’re smart actually.

Henry DeVries:

One of our authors got this big client because of his book, and he asked the CEO, “Oh, what part of the book convinced you?” And he mentioned something that was on page two. He said, “He got to page two and said, ‘I got all I need.’ That’s a CEO. ‘Got all I need. Get this person in here, let’s hire him.’” That’s six.

Number seven is advanced. Number seven is put on a workshop where people will pay money. Like a workshop you’re doing in Florida in December about Money Matters. So people will actually pay money to be in the room, because they know you have valuable information that pertains to them, that shows them how they compare to their peers. That’s the dirty little secret. We’re so busy doing it and if we’ve been running our agency, we’ve been insulated for years, we don’t have that advantage of job hopping like some other people do. So we don’t get to, what is that, pollinate like the bees flitting around. But you’re somebody who knows hundreds of agencies and hundreds of best practices that you’ve refined on something about, oh goody, let’s talk about money. It’s money, love-

Drew McClellan:

Sex, romance.

Henry DeVries:

Money, love, and health.

Drew McClellan:

No, I need to do a workshop on that.

Henry DeVries:

Those are the three topics we care about.

Drew McClellan:

Yep.

Henry DeVries:

Yes. I’m looking forward to your seminars on love for the agency owner and help for the agency owner.

Drew McClellan:

That’s right. That’s right. I’m going to add a five to your seven.

Henry DeVries:

Okay.

Drew McClellan:

So do a workshop or teach something that people will pay money for, and then offer to the alumni of that workshop the opportunity to come back for your hard cost. So one of the things you’ll see, Henry, in December is there will be five or more agency owners who have already seen the workshop, have already attended it, hopefully have applied to a lot of stuff, but they’re coming back because either their agency is in a different place or they want the refresher or they’re bringing a new CFO with them. So I let them come for my hard cost. But what I love about it is they’re sitting at a table of prospects and then somehow they’ll say they’ve already done it. And then the people go, “Wait, wait, you paid money to come back to the same workshop?” And then they go, “Oh my god, yeah. I learned so much.”

Whatever they say, they say lovely things, which then tells all of the people around the table that I am not a fraud and that I know what I’m talking about, that these agency owners have been a little more successful, because they applied one or two things that they learned from me. And having them in the room and having them during the discussions and the Q&A and all of that, they’ll stand up in front of everyone and go, “Okay, I’ve attended this thing three times before and every time, here’s what I applied the first time. Here’s what I applied the second time. Here’s what I heard this time that I know I have to apply.”

That’s gold. I can’t replicate those endorsements in any other way than just letting those people in for… It doesn’t cost me a dime to let them in because they cover their hard costs, but it’s lovely to have them back and have them, A, it’s great to see them layer their learning. So for me, I love that they want to come back and get even smarter about whatever the topic is. But B, I love that they are the pollinators for me in that room.

Henry DeVries:

That is great. That is great. And who do people believe, you or somebody you’ve worked with? And the testimony of the eyewitness. I want to testify. Is this it?

Drew McClellan:

Right. Right. So, that’s a point five to your seven. I love-

Henry DeVries:

I like it. I’ll steal it tomorrow.

Drew McClellan:

It’s all yours.

Henry DeVries:

Thank you.

Drew McClellan:

You don’t even have to credit me, just go ahead and take it.

Henry DeVries:

I’ve credited you a couple of times.

Drew McClellan:

Of course.

Henry DeVries:

Remember that.

Drew McClellan:

Right. Yeah.

Henry DeVries:

Yeah.

Drew McClellan:

Okay. All right. Here’s my takeaway, because we need to wrap up. At the end of the day, what I’m hearing you say is, A, everybody has it in them to write a book that is actually helpful and valuable to their audience, regardless of if you think it’s the secret sauce spectrum or you think everybody knows what you know. Everybody is wrong about that, you are somewhere in the middle, you know something, you have experiences that are unique. You have done a lot of the things that people may know intellectually, but they haven’t done. And there are ways to enhance that through interviewing other people, primary or secondary research, all that. So number one, everybody has a book in them and it’s valuable. Number two, that book then becomes the best marketing tool. And then speaking on a stage or on a podcast or whatever is the best way to sell your services. And then we have the magnificent seven, which is how do you create those opportunities, right? That seems like a pretty good recipe.

Henry DeVries:

It’s not bad. The things that you add to it is you’re using LinkedIn to get the bodies in. You’re using your opt-in email list to get the bodies in. Sometimes you’re networking and actually calling people and say, “I’d love to have you there if you could.” Or somebody calling on your behalf. So all those things are just the enhancements to it. Those are the magnificent seven and a half now that you mention it.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. All right. So if folks want to track you down, talk to you about all of this, they can come to Money Matters and hang out with you, what are the best ways for them to reach you?

Henry DeVries:

1, 2, 3. Thanks for asking. They can go to indiebooksintl.com. So indiebooksintl.com. There are ways to contact me there. There’s ways to, if you really want to do a book, I offer a 30-minute strategy call, no selling zone. And I’ll help you get clarity on the goals, your assets, and what the roadblocks are and how others have gotten past those roadblocks. And that is no cost to do that. And they can find all that on the website. They can sign up for my weekly two-minute tip. They can come read me at forbes.com. Just Henry DeVries, D-E-V-R-I-E-S, Henry Devries. Yeah. When my parents came over from the Netherlands, they weren’t hip to this American thing. We should have just been Henry Dee or something like Sandra Dee. But, DeVries. I say every little breeze rhymes with DeVries.

Drew McClellan:

Nice.

Henry DeVries:

But also think cheese when you think of DeVries. So anyway, those are the different ways you can reach me and I’d love to connect with people.

Drew McClellan:

And we will include all of those in the show note links as well. So if you guys are on a treadmill or somewhere where you can’t write all that down, just head over to the website.

Henry DeVries:

We’re all on a treadmill, Drew. We’re all on a treadmill.

Drew McClellan:

Isn’t that true? I can see why the cheese things work for you then.

Henry DeVries:

Yes. Yes.

Drew McClellan:

Henry, this has been great. I am so grateful that you took the time to share your expertise. I love the way you partner with authors and help them get really something super significant, both personally and professionally done. So thank you for sharing your expertise with us today.

Henry DeVries:

Thanks, Drew. I’d love to come back and talk about the how. I’ve got lots of tricks on how to get that book done and written.

Drew McClellan:

Yep. We need to do that. Yep, for sure, because I think that is a huge stumbling block. Everybody wants to do it. Nobody thinks they have the time or whatever to do it. So we will have you back, for sure, to do that.

All right, guys. This wraps up another episode of Build a Better Agency. Couple things, number one, I want to thank our friends at White Label IQ. As you know, they’re the presenting sponsor. So they make it possible for us to hang out every week. So head over to whitelabeliq.com/ami. They do white label design, dev and PPC for many, many podcast listeners and AMI agencies. I’ve known these people for over 20 years. They are the salt of the earth, good people, and they own an agency. That’s actually how White Label came to be. They couldn’t find what they wanted and so they built it. And so they get your world, they get your life, and all they want to do is be helpful. They are the epitome of helpful. They’re lovely, lovely people. So check that out.

Also, I’m hoping this episode got you thinking, maybe got you questioning your own doubts or your own sort of self-defined limitations, whether it’s about the topic or the ability to write the book. I think it’s an amazing way to leave a mark. So all of us at some point in time are going to shut the agency down or close the agency, but a book is sort of a moment in time and it’s something that you can treasure, that your family can be proud of, that will help your business.

But what I love about a book is that in that moment in time, it captures you and it captures your expertise and your generous spirit. And it’s sort of a marker of what your business was all about and what you were all about in the business. That’s not why you write a book, but I do like the permanency of it and I do like the fact that it speaks of you and for you long after you’ve retired or even long after you’re gone. So think of a book that way as well. It is a legacy piece and I think every agency owner should have one. All right?

So with that, I’m going to let you go. This was fun. Thanks for hanging out with us. I love hanging out with you every week. I will be back next week with another guest and we will get you thinking a little differently about your business. All right? Thank you very much. Have a great week. Talk to you then.

That’s all for this episode of AMI’s Build a Better Agency Podcast. Be sure to visit agencymanagementinstitute.com to learn more about our workshops, online courses, and other ways we serve small to midsized agencies. Don’t forget to subscribe today so you don’t miss an episode.