Harnessing the power of introvert agency leaders with Monica Parkin

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Agency Management Institute community, where you’ll learn how to grow and scale your business, attract and retain the best talent, make more money, and keep more of what you make. The Build a Better Agency Podcast, presented by White Label IQ, is packed with insights on how small to midsize agencies survive and thrive in today’s market. Bringing his 25-plus years of experience, as both an agency owner and agency consultant, please welcome your host, Drew McLellan.

Drew McLellan:

Hey, everybody. Drew McLellan here from Agency Management Institute. Welcome back to another episode of Build a Better Agency. I loved doing the series in January, where I just talked with you for, I think it was six weeks without a guest, but I have to tell you, it’s nice to have guests back in the studio, air quotes, “studio,” and be able to just have conversations with people and learn from them. I’m always happy to teach, but I love when I get to teach and learn by having a conversation on our behalf with somebody else, and this I think is going to be a really fascinating conversation. Before I tell you about that, you know that there’s something else I want to talk to you about.

I’m going to tell you that the Build a Better Agency Summit is shaping up to be even better than the first one, and I can’t imagine that I am saying that to you, because the first one was so amazing last August, but this one, we’ve got amazing speakers. We have Carla Johnson, who’s going to talk about how to create innovation inside your business. We have Adam Carroll, who’s going to talk about building your wealth outside of the business so that you can create a legacy for yourself and your family. We’re going to talk about gratitude. We’re going to talk about leadership. We’re going to talk about strategy. We’re going to talk about biz dev. We are going to talk about impostor syndrome. We have it all. We’re going to talk about money stuff; we’re going to talk about leadership stuff; we’re going to talk about process stuff; biz dev. We’re going to cover all of the big bases, with some really remarkable speakers.

We’re also going to do some fun things, like Tuesday night we’re going to head out to a place called Flight Club, which is this huge competitive dart bar. I don’t even know how to describe it to you, other than it’s basically darts and drinks. You can compete and you can play with friends and people you’ve just met and get to know people. We did it last year and it was a blast. The other thing we’re going to do is, as many of you know, if I’m infamous for anything, it is the besmirching of the fictionary woman Babette. Whenever I have an example of somebody who is not living up to our expectations, I always use Babette as my example name.

Well, we have created a signature drink called the Babette that you are going to love, so the last afternoon of the conference, we’re going to gather in a room, everybody’s going to get a Babette or two, and then, much to my chagrin, we are going to open the floor for open Q&A, so you will be able to ask me anything. There is going to be a moderator, so maybe not anything, but you are going to be able to ask me questions about the business, about your business; anything that you want. I think that’ll be a really fun way to end the conference. If you want to join us, we only have about a hundred tickets left, so I really would love it if you would grab one of those tickets before we sell out.

We absolutely can’t take more than 300 people, so grab a ticket now. Go over to agencymanagementinstitute.com, and the very first tab on the navigation bar is BABA Summit. Grab that, the Build a Better Agency Summit. Grab your ticket now. Bring some team members. This is not just for owners. I would say leadership level and above; I wouldn’t bring like a junior woodchuck or an intern, although some people actually brought their kids who were studying marketing. That was fun to have them with us too, so maybe I’m correcting myself. Just bring anybody you want. We will make them feel welcome. There’s going to be plenty for them to learn and do, and we would love to have you with us, so grab a ticket before it’s too late and we are sold out, okay?

Let me tell you a little bit about our guest. Monica Parkin is a woman who was in the high-pressure world of mortgage sales, and she is self-professed an introvert and was struggling to figure out how to be successful and how to thrive in an environment where it seemed like everything she was being taught how to do her job was for an extrovert. She actually did some research and some studying, and she wrote a book, so we are going to talk all about how introverts can function really well in the agency world, in the sales world; some of the ways that we as agency owners and leaders can recognize and tap into the very unique talents of introverts; and I think it’s going to be fascinating. As a self-professed extrovert, I know there’s a lot I don’t know, so I’m going to be probably asking a lot of dumb questions, and I’m hoping she’ll be graceful about that. I’m sure she will. Let’s just jump in and start the conversation. Monica, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us.

Monica Parkin:

Thanks. Excited to be here.

Drew McLellan:

Give everybody just a sense of your background, what prompted the book, and where you’ve gone with the book since it came out.

Monica Parkin:

Yeah, yeah. My background is, actually I was originally a mortgage broker. When I first went into that career, I didn’t get the memo about what a mortgage broker does. I thought I’d just be sitting at home, playing with my dogs and some emails. Wouldn’t have to interact with people at all.

Drew McLellan:

Right. That whole people thing.

Monica Parkin:

Apparently that’s like 20% of the job, so I show up at my new agency or wherever I worked the first time, and they’re like, “So, what’s the first networking event you’re going to do? What are you going to do to go get your clients?” I was like, “Wait, what? Huh?” That’s not what I had envisioned, so at that point I had to reshuffle my brain.

Drew McLellan:

Where do you go from there, then, right?

Monica Parkin:

Yeah, exactly. They’re like, “Well, we’ll make it easy for you. There’s a Chamber of Commerce dinner next week. We’re all going. You can come with us.” Just about quit on the spot, because I was like, “There’s no way I can do this.” Show up at this event. None of my coworkers are there yet. Walk in the door, see all of the people. Uh-uh. Turn around and go out to my car and sit there and play on my phone, basically, to figure out, “How am I going to get out of this thing?”

Unfortunately one of my coworkers shows up, so I have to go back inside, but I did all of the things you’re supposed to do. I walked around and I handed out cards. I’m like, “Ah, I’ve got the best rate. I’m the best mortgage broker.” All of that stuff. Come home and I look at all of these cards in my hand, and I’m like, “I don’t know these people. I didn’t make a connection to them.” I throw the cards in the garbage, and as I’m throwing the cards in the garbage, I have this light bulb moment where I’m like, “Oh, crap. If I’m throwing out their cards, that means they’re throwing out my cards too.” None of that worked for me, and that’s when I realized, “I have to do things a different way.” That was the beginning of this journey.

Drew McLellan:

What prompted you to write the book?

Monica Parkin:

Yeah. The funny story about the book is I was literally… we were in the middle, beginning of the pandemic, so I’ve got a lot more free time on my hands. I’m sitting at home, scrolling through Facebook, and I see this 30-day writing challenge. I’m like, “Hmm, I don’t have that hour commute in the morning and the afternoon kind of thing. Maybe I could do this. Maybe I could write a book in 30 days.” The first question they sent us as part of that writing challenge is, “What is something you’ve overcome? What is a challenge you’ve had to overcome? That’s what your book has to be about.” That’s what immediately popped into my head is this whole, I’ve had to overcome this shyness, this introvertedness, this social awkwardness.

Drew McLellan:

I’m curious; what was the process of writing the book like for you? Was that painful? Was it pleasurable? Was it…

Monica Parkin:

It was a bit of each. I don’t know if you’ve seen it, but I get a little vulnerable in some chapters. I do share a lot of vulnerability in there, but it was also really enjoyable to get out those thoughts and ideas and things that had worked for me and share them with others, and I did it a whole bunch of different ways. Some days I’d sit and write for an hour; some days I’d just, because I’m a speaker, so I’d just be driving the kids to school. I’d hit record and I’d record myself, and then come home and run it through transcription software. I’d pull out some old speeches I had done and go, “Yeah, this would be a great chapter.” It’s just like a mishmash of everything.

Drew McLellan:

Yep. I have had a similar experience with some of the books that I’ve written, too. At the end of the day, what you overcame, if I can encapsulate it, and correct me if I’m getting this wrong, is that there’s a way for people who are shy or quiet or introverted to be super successful; they just have to find a different path. Yes?

Monica Parkin:

Yeah, 100%. That’s what the research shows is that introverts actually are phenomenally good at building relationships. You look at Warren Buffett or Bill Gates, those people are phenomenal entrepreneurs, but they do it in a different way. The way that introverts build relationships, the way that they network and market themselves, is very different from the way extroverts do it. It’s not good or bad; it’s just dramatically different. If you’re an introvert and you’re trying to market like an extrovert, it’s not going to work, and vice versa.

Drew McLellan:

Do you think the message to introverts is, consciously or subconsciously, “Here’s the one way to do this, and it’s the extrovert way, so you have to conform to that; otherwise you’re not successful”? I mean, why did you think you had to do it in a way that was so foreign to you?

Monica Parkin:

Yeah, totally. I do completely think that that’s the message, and I was actually on a podcast yesterday with this cool 21-year-old business student who’s just started a podcast for other students, and that’s what he said. He was like, “I don’t understand. If this is the only way that I can be successful…” We had to have a conversation around that, because no, that’s not the only way. That’s you pretending to be someone you’re not, and that never works for anybody.

Drew McLellan:

Well, and in fact, you’re not going to be successful that way, right?

Monica Parkin:

Yeah, you’re like a fish out of water. You are so far out of your comfort zone that you just can’t.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. After the card-throwing-away incident, as we’ll call it, how did you begin to discover your way of… and discover sounds like you were making it up. How did you begin to recognize that you had a different way of creating a relationship and being successful professionally and all of that? How did you uncover all of that?

Monica Parkin:

Yeah. Well, it was definitely a journey. There’s two parts. One of it was reaching out to people in my industry and saying, “Are you buying leads? What are you doing? How are you getting the business? What’s happening?” We can talk about that. Then the other part was me just stumbling along, figuring out what was working, and then trying to expand on the stuff that worked and discard the stuff that didn’t.

Drew McLellan:

I’m curious; you were obviously an adult when this happened, so you obviously had personal relationships where you had been successful, right?

Monica Parkin:

Yeah, but you know what, I had a very, very small social circle. I was that mom that would not even walk my kids into school. I’d drop them off at the curb, because heaven forbid I’ve got to talk to the other moms.

Drew McLellan:

Had to talk to somebody, right?

Monica Parkin:

Yeah, and I wouldn’t even let my kids go over to their friend’s house, because that meant I’d have to have their friends over to my house, which means I’d have to make friends with their moms. I was like, “I’m not doing that. Too much drama. I don’t want to be part of that.” Obviously, my life is… I mean, this was seven or eight years ago, so I went from this tiny little social circle of literally my husband, my kids and my extended family and a couple best friends, to this huge social circle. I don’t even know how many people I have in my social circle, but on any given day I could pick up the phone and call 20 people and have a really good connection and a really good conversation.

Drew McLellan:

What switch had to get flipped for you to go, “I not only can do this, but I can enjoy this”?

Monica Parkin:

Yeah. Well, the first one, if we go back to where I reached out to those mentors in the industry and said, “What’s the secret? What am I not doing? What am I doing wrong?” They all said the same thing, and to be honest, it kind of pissed me off. They all said, “Just be you. Just be yourself.” The first one, and I was like, “That’s crap. Give me a break. Stop it.” Then I called the next-

Drew McLellan:

Right. “I want the secret.”

Monica Parkin:

I know, right? I’m like, “No, that’s not good.” I called the next one and the next one, and I’m on person number four, and they all say the same thing. I’m getting more and more pissed off, because that’s what people used to tell me as a kid in school when I couldn’t make friends: “Be yourself.” I’m like, “Listen, the kids do not like myself. They don’t like that.” Then I sat with it for a while, because I’m like, “Well, everyone’s telling me the same thing.” That’s what I started to do. I stopped being this person that I thought everyone wanted me to be. I stopped talking about mortgages and business and being this stuffy businessperson, and I started…

I have little miniature goats on my farm, and I’m this quirky, nerdy person, and I started just being this person that I’d literally never showed anyone in my life, and magical things started to happen. People started to reach out to me and connect to me, and, “Hey, I saw your post the other day.” I took my little goats in to the vet to get their vaccines, and I always posted… Mortgage Monica is my tagline, so you know what I do for a living, but then I would not post business stuff; I would post life stuff. I drop the little goats off at the vet, come back an hour later, and they’re like, “Three people came in today and asked if these are Mortgage Monica’s goats.” They had built that connection between…

Drew McLellan:

Isn’t that fascinating?

Monica Parkin:

It’s so cool, and that was when that little light bulb went on. I was like, “Holy crap, maybe this authenticity thing, maybe there’s something to this,” you know?

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, yeah. So much about this is just about being comfortable in your own skin, isn’t it?

Monica Parkin:

Yeah, and the other thing is, when we talk about feeling awkward or being awkward, if we’re going to an event or we’re talking to someone and we’re trying to be someone we’re not, we’ve got all of these windows open in the background. We’re essentially telling a lie, full time, and we’re trying to remember the details of the lie, because when you’re telling a lie, you’re trying to keep it going. It’s like a computer with all of these windows open. You can’t actually focus on having a real conversation because you’re focusing on trying to be perfect.

Drew McLellan:

All of the details, right.

Monica Parkin:

Yeah, and if you throw all of that crap out and you just be you, then you can actually do what we’re doing right now and have a real conversation. That’s where you build relationships, and those relationships lead to business.

Drew McLellan:

Well, and that’s true for extroverts too. I mean, when you come across and you’re all businesslike and you’re driving right to the sale and you’re not creating that connection, I don’t know that that’s an introvert versus extrovert thing; I just think that’s a human thing, that we want some connection with people we talk to, even if it’s light. We just want to have something that feels real before we get into the work.

Monica Parkin:

What you’re referring to, I refer to it as hunter versus farmer.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, tell me about that.

Monica Parkin:

When you’re a hunter, you’re going to get out there. You’re going to get your dinner tonight. You’re going to make that sale. You’re going to close it at any cost, and yeah, you’re going to eat tonight, but are you going to eat the next week and the next week and the next week? Because if you’re raiding every henhouse in the town, eventually you’re going to run out of things, whereas if you’re the farmer, you’re planting seeds. Maybe you don’t grow as fast in the beginning, but eventually you’re going to wake up, and you don’t actually have to work that hard. Those relationships just have built themselves, and you’ve got that repeat clientele that comes back again and again.

Drew McLellan:

I am a self-proclaimed extrovert, so I ask this question out of ignorance. Why do you think the world has decided that extroversion, and the way extroverts behave, is the norm, as opposed to recognizing that how introverts do it works just as well?

Monica Parkin:

Yeah, and recognizing how well they work together, because that’s what the science says. When you have half extroverts, half introverts in your company, you’re going to do phenomenally better than one or the other. They really work well together, but I suspect it’s just a loudest voice in the room thing.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. Yeah, maybe.

Monica Parkin:

It’s, you’re the loudest voice, you get heard, and that old stereotype that the introvert can’t articulate their thoughts or that they’re sitting in the corner and they’re shaking and they’re scared, but it’s just that they’re not good in that environment. You get them into a different environment, a small group, a committee, a one-on-one relationship, and that’s where they really can dig deep and thrive.

Drew McLellan:

People listening own agencies or are leading or running agencies. Inside their staff, obviously they probably have a mix of introverts and extroverts. One of the things I think is interesting is the idea of, if you’re an extrovert boss, how do you learn how to relate to and make an introvert employee or peer comfortable so that you can create that connection? What has to happen from across the table?

Monica Parkin:

I think it’s creating that space where people feel safe to be their authentic selves, like to be themselves, because when you’ve got people on your team that feel like they can really be them, really talk about the things they’re passionate about, really dig into problems, then that’s when you’re going to see that… production isn’t the right word, but you’re going to get good stuff out of them. If they’re in an environment where they feel like they can be themselves, there’s an expectation that you have to act like this extrovert or you have to be this person, then you’re not going to get all of the best out of them, and to put them in places where they’re going to thrive best. Put them in the small team or put them on the problem, because they love to solve problems, and maybe put your extroverts out at that networking event. Know where to use your resources, and they are resources, extroverts and introverts. Both phenomenal resources, yeah.

Drew McLellan:

Right. Is there a different way that you approach conversations as an extrovert approaching an introvert, or to make a conversation more comfortable for someone?

Monica Parkin:

Yeah. What I’ve heard time and time again from introverts is they hate small talk. Skip the fricking small talk. Don’t ask about the weather, and “How was your day?”

Drew McLellan:

Really?

Monica Parkin:

They just hate it. It makes them awkward. It makes them uncomfortable. They don’t know what to do with it. Go straight to the good stuff. Straight to whatever you want to have that conversation about. Get in there, because for you, you’re warming up with small talk; for them, you’re actually making them more and more uncomfortable the longer the small talk goes.

Drew McLellan:

Awkward, right.

Monica Parkin:

Yeah.

Drew McLellan:

That’s really interesting.

Monica Parkin:

Yeah.

Drew McLellan:

I mean, we know when we look at people’s personality profiles that some people are more chitty-chatty than others, and, again, here’s my extrovert brain. My extrovert brain is, okay, I have an introverted colleague, employee, whatever, coming into my office or coming to the coffee shop or wherever we’re meeting. I know that communication is more challenging for them, so I should make it more comfortable by chit-chatting.

Monica Parkin:

Yeah, so you as an extrovert, you also enjoy deep conversations, so for me to say, “Oh, extroverts only like small talk,” that’s not correct either. You enjoy those deep conversations.

Drew McLellan:

Yes.

Monica Parkin:

But introverts really enjoy those deep conversations, so not asking shallow questions; asking deep questions like, “Why did you choose this profession? What do you love about this project? What do you think about this direction?”, that skip all of the small talk. They just hate that. It just makes you want to crawl inside your skin. Yeah.

Drew McLellan:

That’s fascinating. Okay, so, as a manager or an owner or a leader, how do I harness the best of the introvert? I know you said put them on small teams, don’t make them go to networking events, but how else can I create an environment where they can really thrive and serve our clients, serve the agency, but also serve themselves and feel good about the work that they do?

Monica Parkin:

Yeah, yeah. One is, I’ll tell you, introverts love to solve problems. They just love to dig into a big problem and just like layer and layer by layer peel back the onion and solve that problem, so letting them run with those situations where there is a problem. Asking them deep questions and listening sometimes more than you talk to what they’re saying, and, like I said, just creating this organization where they’re safe to be themselves. What that means is sometimes the leaders have to be their authentic selves too, you know what I mean?

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Monica Parkin:

If you’re pretending to be someone you’re not, and you have this policy, “Oh, we’re all authentic,” but no one’s actually doing it, then it doesn’t mean anything; to actually walk the walk and talk the talk.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, it wouldn’t feel safe, right?

Monica Parkin:

Exactly, yeah. It’s one thing to say, “We’re going to make it safe for you to be yourself,” and then nobody is themselves, and it isn’t safe.

Drew McLellan:

Right, especially if it’s not a peer to peer, but it’s a supervisor to subordinate or something like that, where there’s already a dynamic in that relationship that makes things harder.

Monica Parkin:

Yeah, and then the other things I hear from introverts too is, if they’re in a group and there’s three extroverts and there’s three introverts, they’ll all throw out ideas. The extrovert ideas are more likely to be heard, for whatever reason, because they’re the loudest person, or because they just have a way of phrasing it more eloquently or whatever, so to stop and pause and take the time: “Are these other ideas valid? Are we just dismissing them because this person never speaks up?” And create space to have those conversations.

Drew McLellan:

What I’m hearing you say, part of our role, and again, this would be your role, if you’re a supervisor or you’re leading a team, whether you’re an introvert or extrovert, being mindful to magnify the ideas or the contributions of the introvert if they somehow get overrun or dismissed.

Monica Parkin:

Yeah. “Well, what do you mean by that, or can you tell us more about that?” Give them the chance to continue that conversation, because in a lot of cases they’re used to just being shut down, so they might just throw it out there and then back up, like, “I don’t want to own this,” so give them the space to own it and elaborate on it and talk about it.

Drew McLellan:

If I’m an introvert, how do I… Agencies are big, boisterous places, and they are filled with many extroverts. I mean, the business attracts a lot of big personalities. They’re creative people. They’re talkers. If I’m in that environment, how do I carve out my place? How do I have conversations with people and ask them to help me be successful? How do I own my spot in that noisy, crazy environment?

Monica Parkin:

Yeah. Number one is seek out mentors in the organization. People love to help other people. They love to watch people grow. If you don’t ask, though, you don’t get, so finding those people that you feel safe and comfortable with and saying, “Hey, I really want to grow in this industry; how can you help me do that, or what would you do differently if we went back 10 years in time?” Finding those mentors that are willing to help you grow and look out for you and shape you I think also helps you find a space, and I think it’s also possible for introverts to become omniverts, because I can do that now. I can walk into a big room, and I actually feel completely comfortable, because I have a set of questions in my head that I’m going to ask ahead of time. I have a plan before I get there so I don’t walk in-

Drew McLellan:

You’ve kind of prepped.

Monica Parkin:

I’ve prepped a little, yeah, because it just takes away the nerves. I think, “Okay, these are the people that are going to be here. I could talk to these ones first to warm up, and then these are some questions I could ask. These are some things I could talk about.” I make sure when I walk into a workplace or an event or anything that I’m a little bit prepared so that I don’t get that blank brain syndrome where I’m just like, “I don’t know what to say. I don’t know what to do.”

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, and that’s a fascinating difference between introverts and extroverts. I think extroverts are much more likely to just wing it.

Monica Parkin:

Yeah, you can just turn it on. You can talk about anything, and I think we just need a little more preparation. We need to have a few thoughts in our head about what we’re… and then once we get going, you can’t shut us off sometimes, but it’s just getting warmed up and getting going.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. Okay, this is fascinating, and I have a million more questions, but I want to take a quick break, and then we’re going to come back, because I want to talk more about the idea of the, we assume everybody who owns an agency or who’s running an agency is an extrovert, but I suspect half of them are not, so helping them figure out how they show up in this crazy, noisy space that is the agency space, I would love to hear your thoughts about that, but let’s take a quick break and then we’ll come back and talk about that.

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All right, we are back, and we are having a fascinating conversation about being an introvert and finding your path and not feeling like you have to follow what the norm says, which typically is the extrovert’s path. I’d just asked Monica before the break, okay, if I’m an agency owner or leader, and I’m actually an introvert, and now I have to be inspirational; I have to lead; I have to direct; I have to have candid, hard conversations; I have to do all of the things that leaders have to do, regardless of their personality type or how they’re wired, how do they carve out that space to be authentically a leader how they want to be, and still