Successful business development strategies for agencies with Greg Jacobs

Speaker:

It doesn’t matter what kind of an agency you run, traditional, digital, media buying, Web Dev, PR, whatever your focus, you still need to run a profitable business. The Build a Better Agency Podcast presented by White Label IQ, will show you how to make more money and keep more of what you make. Let us help you build an agency that is sustainable, scalable, and if you want down the road sellable. Bringing his 25 plus years of experience as both an agency owner and agency consultant, please welcome your host Drew McLellan.

Drew McLellan:

Hey there, everybody. Drew McLellan here, from Agency Management Institute. Welcome to another episode of Build a Better Agency. If there is a common topic that I am often, when I say often probably daily, having these agency owners and leaders, it’s usually around some aspect of Biz Dev. And so this episode is going to take a look at Biz Dev from an interesting perspective.  But before we get into that, a couple things that I want to remind you about. So, if you are a regular listener of the Build a Better Agency Podcast, that we are doing a conference.

I had originally scheduled it for May of 2020. Thanks to the pandemic, we moved it to November of 2020. And then, unfortunately, the hotel wasn’t going to be ready for us in November. And so I am a firm believer that the third time is the charm. And so we have now moved it to August 10th, and 11th 2021. And I would love for you to be there. And let me tell you some of the reasons why I want you to be there. Number one, I want you to get out of your house. And I think by August of 2021, you’ll be ready to do that. Number two, I want you to be surrounded by people like you, people who have a passion for the business, people who have poured their blood, sweat and tears into starting or buying and building their agency.

And people who are out there, working it and trying to make it work and trying to be as successful as possible. And building these amazing agencies, I want you to be surrounded by that. And I want them to be surrounded by you. I want you to be with amongst your own kind, if you will. And, there really is not another conference out there that is built for small to mid-sized agencies. And so that’s why I decided to do this. I’ve known, I’ve felt the absence in the marketplace for a long time. And honestly, it’s a huge commitment and a huge financial risk. And I just didn’t have the courage to do it. So of course brilliantly, I decided at the end of 2019, to launch it in 2020 not, of course, knowing we were going to be in the middle of a global pandemic, but nonetheless, in for a penny in for a pound. So we’re going to do it. So I want you to get out of your house. I want you to be with like-minded people. I want you to learn from these amazing speakers that we have assembled together. So I’m talking the likes of Joe Pulizzi and Jay Baer, and Robin Boehler and folks who are going to talk about how to get your agency ready to sell. We’re going to talk about how to build your wealth outside of the agency.

So that if you sell your agency or not, it really won’t matter because you’ll have built this nest egg outside of the agency. We’re going to talk about imposter syndrome. We’re going to talk about how to really figure out what is the core of your story? And how do you weave it through everything you do, whether it’s for your agency or for your clients. We are going to talk about diversity issues inside agencies and how do we have those uncomfortable conversations. So we’ve got all kinds of things happening, that I think you are going to find fascinating and helpful. And I think you’re also going to find it uplifting. I think you’re going to find it invigorating. I want to fill your bucket up. We have all had a hellacious 2020. And by 2021, I want to make sure that you are running with a full tank of gas and you’re inspired, and you’re ready to go.

And so I hope that this conference, I hope you come to this first one, this inaugural conference, because that’s going to say to me, “You know what Drew, we should keep doing this.” Because I really do think coming together once a year, in this relatively intimate setting it’s not going to be a huge 1000s and 1000s of agencies, it’s going to be a few 100 agency owners and leaders. Coming together in this intimate setting and talking about our craft, talking about the business of our business. How do we do this well? How do we make more money? How do we keep more of the money we make? All of those topics, I think are going to be critical. So we’re going to have a CPA there that’s going to talk to you about tax strategies.

We’re going to have an accountant there talking to you about cash flow. So, I really do think we have assembled the best of the best to help you build and grow your agency. And I really hope that you are inspired to join us, you can look at the speaker lineup, and you can grab a ticket at the agencymanagementinstitute.com website, in the upper left corner and have button says BaBA, so Build a Better Agency Summit, just click on that. And you can read more about it, you can buy a ticket, you can book your hotel room, you can do all of those things. And I just, I really hope that you can make it, make it work so that you can be with us. I really want that to happen. For you and for me, I would love to hang out with you for a couple days.

So, that would be awesome. Okay, so today’s topic is Biz Dev, and Greg Jacobs is a guy who works today out in Orange County, so little South of LA. And he works for an agency and he is their Biz Dev guy. And he goes about Biz Dev from a very interesting perspective because of his background. And so when I met him, I thought he would have some interesting things for us to think about. Whether you are the Biz Dev person for your shop, or you have a Biz Dev person in your shop, or you think you would like to hire someone to do Biz Dev for your shop. I think in all of those cases, Greg will serve up some nuggets that will be super helpful to you. So, let us not delay one more second. Let’s just jump into the conversation. Greg, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us.

Gregory Jacobs:

Thanks for having me Drew. I appreciate it a lot.

Drew McLellan:

So give the listeners a little bit about your background. So you’ve been a content creator long before we called it content. But you’ve been doing this for a really long time. So give everybody a sense of, from your family background on, how you really came from a content background, and then how you shifted to really being focused on Biz Dev for your agency.

Gregory Jacobs:

So looking back on, the family business was started in 1970. And the family business was a company called Freewheelin’ Films. And it was a production company, a TV production company. And then we had a syndication company that we bolted on to that. And so, what we would do is go to Chrysler or Anheuser-Busch or United Airlines, and we would do half hour television shows that were brand supported. I’ll use Budweiser as example. They have a Clydesdale hitch, which is their horse hitch. We would do a show about the Clydesdale horses, we know where their farm is, how they’re raised, where they find them. And this half hour show, Equine Show would be about these horses. It would be sponsored or brought to you by Budweiser. But the branding within the show would be organically position.

Drew McLellan:

Great.

Gregory Jacobs:

So, [inaudible 00:22:22] this visibility, then we would take that half hour show. And we would syndicate it to broadcast television. And in those days, this is late ’70s, early ’80s. There were, basically for television networks in which he would syndicate you, right? So it would be ABC affiliate in whatever, DMR market, it would be. So it’d be the ABC affiliate in Kansas City or the NBC affiliate in LA or whatever. And we would aggregate that over across the 212 or 211 markets there were. And all of a sudden, this syndicated piece of content would have its reach. So the television or affiliate or network affiliate, would get the programing for free, they would get half the airtime, we would retain half the airtime. Or what we call was it a two four barter split. So we would hold four minutes of commercial time, they would have two minutes of commercial time, or conversely.

So we would put in the Budweiser spots, they would then have their own spots. So they get free programing, we got free placement. And then we would charge Anheuser-Busch one feeds do the production in the syndication. And that was where it was. So I got my start literally charging radios and getting craft services for a production company. And then went into the syndication side, and that’s when I got into the business side. I always joke with my family owned it cleaners or gas station, I’d be pumping gas. I just happened to be making television shows and syndicating content.

Drew McLellan:

Great. Back before we talked about it that way. I mean, clearly you guys were a little bit ahead of your time, in terms of the product placement inside the entertainment, and all of that people were really doing a lot of that back then.

Gregory Jacobs:

They weren’t and we look back at, Mutual of Omaha’s Wild Kingdom as a way back when some of the early stuff and, if you look back even into the ’50s, there was some product placement. I think you might have actually mentioned it in your book, there’s-

Drew McLellan:

Yap.

Gregory Jacobs:

A product placement that’s way back when. So it’s new and I look I chuckle today because brand-centric content, brand-centric integration is still a new phrase. Well, it’s been around for a half a century.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Gregory Jacobs:

It’s just how we’ve modified it. So that was, our role of all of our clients were big brands. And then we would create television shows, we would do a show for Chrysler around them their pace car, leading INDY 500. They would have a special Luberon, they would customize it, it’d be a pace car. So we did a lot of this, we did in airline and flight programing for United Airlines, they have a seat back magazine, and in-flight magazine called Hemispheres, we wouldn’t do a television show that is a companion, we’d have Lauren Hutton, who is a model, posted and then that would air on the Travel Channel and also air on United Airlines in-flight. And that would be paid for by United and then it would be bartered on to a Travel Channel or what have you. So that market was great for us for years.

And then as I got more in the syndication side, I then also got on the business development side. And I was with a family business for almost 14 years. And then I decided that I wanted to have a change, and so I went out on my own. And that was in 2002 or so I went out on my own, I started my own production company called Magellan Media Production Company based in Orange County, California. And that’s when I really realized and you got to be your own pied piper to keep it going. And we had a little bit of a body of business. And we got really into 30 second spot that became a little bread and butter for us. But they’re really challenging. You don’t have a lot of margin in them, you’re stuck to what’s called an AICP form, or a certain budget form that you have to stay to. So there wasn’t a lot of creativity and to manage those numbers was tough. And we as a production company had a little bit of a break, when there was a series of shows called Extreme Makeover Home Edition.

Drew McLellan:

Yep.

Gregory Jacobs:

And it was [crosstalk 00:22:22], it was Ty Pennington. And so what we did, back to my brand hat, I would go to the brand, whether it was Shea homes, or Taylor Woodward or Lennar homes, and I would say we will you pay us and we will do a five, six minute clip about what goes on behind the scenes for Extreme Makeover: Home Edition. And so the brand Lenore would have this marketing piece that we would shoot, on set while they’re doing the house and building the house in five days or nine hours or whatever the model was. So I can put my brand hat on, and had the brands partner with the brands on funding that. So they had content.

And then I did that. And then we sold a big project to Toyota, and to Saatchi and Saatchi, Toyota’s agency, about Toyota coming into NASCAR and Toyota came into NASCAR in 2007 was the first race, Japanese auto manufacturer coming into an American sport, it was, challenging and how would the fan base view it. So we sold this half hour show that was going to air on Fox, right before the Daytona 500 in 2007. And we sold the show and produced the show. But while I was doing that show, for a large company in Orange County, NASCAR called and said, “Hey, who’s this guy that was doing the sales for Toyota? Who won this Toyota business?” And it happened to be me and so that NASCAR called and I went there to lead their unscripted TV division, and I was at NASCAR for almost five years.

Drew McLellan:

So all of that has nothing to do with Biz Dev for an agency. So how did you end up doing what you’re doing now? I can totally see the correlation. But-

Gregory Jacobs:

Yeah.

Drew McLellan:

How did that path finish up?

Gregory Jacobs:

So where Biz Dev came into play was when, I landed at Red Bull. And I was put into the role of senior vice president of monetization. And that monetization moniker landed on me. So Red Bull had his media division or has media division called Red Bull Media House. And that media division is strong, and they bring in partners, so BFGoodrich, and other partners Duct tape. And so my Biz Dev, I became actually out there talking to brands who wanted to work with Red Bull. And that’s where my Biz Dev shifted from. I did content distribution for Red Bull, but then I also ran the entire monetization team. And so I needed to get out there. And actually, basically, I sold Red Bull Media House as if they were an agency. We would bring a brand in, and we would bring them into our world, and our events, and our athletes, and all the things that Red Bull got into. And we plugged that brand in. And so I basically was Biz Dev for an in house agency, which was Red Bull to other brands. And that’s where my Biz Dev started taking off.

Drew McLellan:

Well, I think a lot of people point to Red Bull as the poster child for incredible content creation far beyond just promoting their own products, but really building a whole new revenue stream, but really building the brand from a content perspective. So, that’s-

Gregory Jacobs:

Yeah.

Drew McLellan:

A pretty good place to, continue to grow your chops.

Gregory Jacobs:

To cut your teeth. And, when I was brought on board in 2010. We had literally just started Red Bull Media House and so it was only about four of us that started, to get it off the ground, and then it went from there and it was good. And one of my good friends who also runs all production for Red Bull Media House still, guy named Scott Bradfield and way we had to work with the content was, I have a line with him. I said, “Scotty, don’t make something that I can’t sell. So don’t make a piece of content that you think works, but I can’t sell it to the market, whether it’s a platform that I distributed to, or whether it’s a brand that I want to support it. But then I won’t sell something that you can’t make.” And so we would have platforms or networks come to us and say, “We want to do something around your brand, or your athletes that we think is cool.” Well, it’s not authentic to our brand or wouldn’t be authentic to our athletes. And so I wouldn’t be able to, I wouldn’t sell something that Scott’s team couldn’t make. And I would employ any agency or anybody that’s doing content, really think through, why are you making the content? And why are you making it for?

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Gregory Jacobs:

And, I see it the last piece of this equation, I see it a lot many times. I still take large projects, and I put them out into the marketplace, and I sell them to Amazon or to Netflix or to networks. And I’ll be in a pitch and I’ll be there with another producer who’s pitching an idea. And I’m helping them coaching them along. And the network exec will say, “You know what, guys, this doesn’t fit for my hair, this just doesn’t work for us. But thank you for bringing it to our attention.”  And the producer will get upset. And the producer will say, “Well, I’d watch it.” And I always step back, go, “Yeah, you’d watch it because it’s your project.” But it doesn’t fit for the network.

Drew McLellan:

Okay.

Gregory Jacobs:

So I always say you got to find that balance of what you want to make, but also what will fit for the partner.

Drew McLellan:

Well, and ultimately it has to serve the audience, right?

Gregory Jacobs:

It has to serve the audience. And so I look at, the key metric of any piece of content is time spent viewing, engagement time. Will they click on it? Will they watch it? And will they stay for a period of time? And I see so many pieces of content. And you mentioned again, in your book about what is content? It’s a phrase we use, but does it mean a blog or a vlog? Or is it mean a podcast or what have you and the key piece is also the content, it can’t be too long. It can’t be too short. I know a lot of our stuff when we do webisodes for YouTube, a shorter piece of content, sounds better off we are, because we can have a higher engagement, higher time spent viewing. Because everybody who clicks on a piece of content on YouTube, looks at the bottom TRT line Total Running Time. They see how long that piece of content is. And they say themselves, “Am I willing to devote five minutes or 32 minutes ?” Or what have you to that piece of content.

And that’s immediately a deterrent. Depending on where they are in their life. If they’re doing something as snackable content at lunch at their desk, then fine, they’ll crank through some content. And I always caution clients, make sure you watch your TRT, how long it’s going to be, because you want to get your engagement up. And that’s what drives CPM. That’s what drives value. When you see somebody the other day was asking me about content on YouTube. And they said, “Well isn’t the place to go?” I said wouldn’t Quibi folded two weeks to go.” At the time that we’re recording this roughly. When Quibi folded and couldn’t make it’s two things. It’s almost a business school case study as to what how challenging it is to launch a streaming platform. I mean, they had I think 1.75 billion in capitalization. They had big, names behind it, and Quibi had a hard time, but it only goes to show how strong YouTube is in that space.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, very true. Alright, so today, you’ve taken all of that experience and all of that talent. And now you’re a Biz Dev guy for an agency.

Gregory Jacobs:

Yeah.

Drew McLellan:

So how does all of that in this COVID or not COVID time, there’s a million agency folks, whether it’s the owners or the Biz Dev folks out knocking on doors of prospects, super crowded space.

Gregory Jacobs:

Yeah.

Drew McLellan:

I think, in many cases, a disingenuous place, right? Where agencies are not really all that concerned about the clients business, they’re concerned about getting the clients business, I think there’s a difference. And I think clients feel it, when we actually are invested in them and what they’re trying to do. But how do you use everything you’ve learned in the past parts of your career to do Biz Dev differently?

Gregory Jacobs:

Great question. So two and a half years ago, a couple of friends of mine who have owned different agencies came together to build one agency, and, it’s called Schiefer Chopshop. We’ve branded that now as SCS, it’s easier to understand easier to say. So it’s SCS. So I came on board on the Biz Dev team. And prior to COVID, it might have been a little bit almost a little bit easier, for on the outreach because it didn’t seem as cluttered.

Drew McLellan:

Great.

Gregory Jacobs:

So check the Ada challenge is, you have a lot of folks out there pitching business. And they’re doing it based on tonnage, as many emails as I can get out, it was many agencies, as many brands as possible without really having a message. So step one is they’ve actually driven the credibility of Biz Dev down. I think almost I’ll go dramatically. So you have bad actors. And I’m not saying they’re bad people, but they’re bad actors. They get out there-

Drew McLellan:

They’ve bad practices for sure.

Gregory Jacobs:

Bad practices.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Gregory Jacobs:

So you have a couple of models, you say, okay, you’re an agency owner. So you have a couple, I’m a big fan of your podcast, I listen to several of them. And you say many times that the agency owner is the best Biz Dev Rep that they can have. Okay?

Drew McLellan:

Yes.

Gregory Jacobs:

Okay. The agency owner is the Pied Piper. Then you also say, and I like what you say is that, agency owners start to focus on Biz Dev, when it’s almost too late. We’re losing our biggest client, we’ve got some erosion. “Oh, boy, we better scrambled.”

Drew McLellan:

Yep, the feast or famine model.

Gregory Jacobs:

Feast or famine. And so I look at a couple of things, when I do this for, if you have a young, so if you are an agency owner, or running an agency, and you’re not Biz Dev classically trained. And there’s a real big thing when I say Biz Dev classically trained I actually mean that, there’s an art to it. So you have a Biz Dev, or you have an agency owner who comes on board and wants to start to build out their Biz Dev team. Well, with typically, like you said, it’s an afterthought so now they’re scrambling. Okay, I got to move the needle in 90 days.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Gregory Jacobs:

There is no Biz Dev Rep worth their salt, that will do one or two things, a work on commission only. Because if I work on commission only, you could find somebody, but don’t think they’re going to change for you. If you’re willing to invest in that person, they’re going to be willing to invest in you. So two things, try to find some retainer for your Biz Dev Rep. Don’t always put it on points is my opinion. And then secondly, no Biz Dev Rep worth their salt will guarantee you or say they can close business. And at least there has to be at least six months. If somebody tells me I can turn your model in 60 days, or 90 days or 120 days, I believe they’re lying to you, or they don’t have experience in the market.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Gregory Jacobs:

Because it takes you at least two months to figure out what it is the agency is selling.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, and what I think an agency if they’re going to invest in a Biz Dev person, they have to assume, it’s going to take at least a year for that person to make them whole on their salary.

Gregory Jacobs:

I will go, you know what? I would rather go with what you’re saying there.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Gregory Jacobs:

I believe that, again, Biz Dev agency, [inaudible 00:22:22] agency owners start to panic, they plug somebody in, I think there’s skepticism, I think a lot of agency owners don’t know if they really believe in this stuff. Is it really going to work? Is it something and it’s to them, it’s a luxury item. And I never quite could figure that out, we’ll all be in meetings my past life, and I’ll have some of the younger folks in an agency, I think most agencies have a demographic which is 25 to 35 years old.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Gregory Jacobs:

And now, I’ll be on the Biz Dev team, and they’ll say, “Oh! Sales that’s such a tricky word.” And, “Oh! It’s so tough.” And I think to myself, well, if it wasn’t for the sales guys, you wouldn’t have a paycheck.

Drew McLellan:

Absolutely. Right.

Gregory Jacobs:

Twice a month, it’s us out there on the front lines, like the Marines hitting the beach first, that do it. And so I think Biz Dev is, I don’t want to say taken advantage of, but, under respected in a way. So give them a year, you would say, give them time, pay them something, and give them the credibility to be out there and do it. And if you do that, and they’re good at it, it’ll show up.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Gregory Jacobs:

When I landed at our agency, and luckily, I was pretty good at it. And I did it the way I was classically trained to do it, and we generated some business. And that brings that note up. And then, my job once the clients in the door, and we’ve closed it, I fade away, and I go back out to hunt the new one. And if our we call it a business solutions team, our brand solutions team, internally, the brand solutions team, if the client has come in, as sitting with the agency, and that brand solutions team is good, we’ve got a guy on our team named Tommy campaign is great. If it gets into his group, and they can keep upselling the client or maintain the client, then we’re all working seamlessly. I’ve gone back out to continue to have.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, in fact, I think one of the mistakes a lot of agencies make is they’ll make someone who say a really great AE, also responsible for sales. And what happens is I go sell something, but now I’m also going to be the AE at the account. And pretty soon they have they’ve lost their capacity to go out and sell. So you’re right, the Biz Dev person has to always be able to do a nice clean handoff, and then head back out to try and find the next prospect.

Gregory Jacobs:

Exactly.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Gregory Jacobs:

And though the one thing if it can be blessed, so a perfect Biz Dev operation is, give them time or window to figure it out. Make sure you onboard them. I think it’s something else you say you’re in the book is that agencies don’t spend enough time on board.

Drew McLellan:

No.

Gregory Jacobs:

So, on board this person is talking on your behalf in the market.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Gregory Jacobs:

And this is that he or she is your face. So give them the time, and the respect to be that, give them enough time to incubate and get out there, give them some retainer. So they have a feel for it. And once it starts to go, and you close some business, and that clients hand it off to your internal AE, at least have the Biz Dev Rep keeps some relationship because when things start to go South, I think in Mad Men, that was a great line that Don Draper said, “The moment you sign a client, is the moment you start to lose a client.”

Drew McLellan:

Great.

Gregory Jacobs:

And I truly believe that you sign a client, and the honeymoons over and you start to get going. If that Biz Dev Rep, who is the very first person to talk to that client, is somewhat there in the shadows, because if the clients starts to get unsure or uncomfortable, they have one, almost disinterested third party, they can go back to, then go back to Greg. “Hey, Greg, you know what, when we started talking back, a year ago, it was good, but things have changed. I need your help.” And then I’ll step back into the agency and go, “Guys, the clients not feeling it here.” So having the Biz Dev Rep, keep a soft position with the client is good.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Gregory Jacobs:

Again, no day to day, no, don’t become all things to all people, whether the A, or Biz Dev Rep, make sure you have separated worlds.

Drew McLellan:

Absolutely. So as you’re out there now, agreed it’s super crowded part of the reason why it’s crowded, because a lot of agencies lost a lot of business. So they’re all in feast and famine mode. Part of it is because everybody’s home, or a lot of people are still home. So they have more time to be knocking on doors. What’s working out there, right now? What do you see, either that’s working for you or other agencies, that is breaking through the clutter, and is having some impact and allowing you to actually have meaningful conversations with prospects?

Gregory Jacobs:

Less emails out. And every email, really hyperlink focused to that person. So we use Winmo. And I use Winmo, as my start of a database to at least plug in a brand and start to dig through.

Drew McLellan:

Yep.

Gregory Jacobs:

Once I go from there, I didn’t get of course, into LinkedIn. And I can get into LinkedIn later on in this conversation about my thoughts on that. And I understand that basically, the profile of that client that I want to go to, whether it’s the CMO or the VP of Marketing, or have you. So there’s a couple of rules, use your database to figure out who your target is. So find out where you want to go. Whether that’s geographically, whether that’s based on brand, whether that’s based on something. Where you want to go and then find five targets in that area, and then get really specific as to who that person is, and what their background is.

And then make sure that you craft your letter. So it reads as if you wrote this just to them, almost like a pet bow. And the key is subject line, that subject line has to make them feel like you customize this for them. The advantages that we have, if you have a hyperlink customized email, is those who don’t. I got an email the other day from somebody and it said, “Gregory S.” Which was not the way my name goes, “Gregory S who handles your calendar?”  And this was an email that they had following up an email they sent two days ago. So I could tell it was AI automated.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Gregory Jacobs:

And there’s so much of that out there that if I can get a customized email, it luckily can cut through the clutter. And if I can have the very first line or two be about them, showing that I did my homework, they’ll read a little bit further. So hyperlink customized now, if you’re a neophyte in the Biz Dev space, and you have pressure from an agency owner, saying, “It’s all about tonnage, how many calls did you make today? How many emails did you send today?” If an agency owner says, “How many emails did you send a day?” They’re clearly don’t have their finger on the pulse on how to do this.

Drew McLellan:

Great.

Gregory Jacobs:

I take all send a lot fewer. But I have a lot higher hit rate, because I take my time to try to get there.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. Well, again, you’re considering the audience and actually crafting something that is of interest and value to them.

Gregory Jacobs:

That’s true. And the frustration can be, “Well, I spent a lot of time and I only got eight emails out today or whatever, over the last couple days, I have 10 out. And unfortunately, those 10 didn’t respond.” Well, that’s okay, just what it was. And then you have of course, you follow up even more customized. But you have to stay true to that the unforced errors, that those who are not figuring out do is the automated AI emails, make my job easier, because it shows that they don’t care. It’s just all about tonnage. And if I can show I care, better off.

And I’ll say something I’ll look at their LinkedIn and I’ll say, “Oh! By the way.” And little things that are so cliche, “Hey, which are the same college together you went to the University of Denver so did I.” That can come across as cheesy or disingenuous, but I think if you craft it just right, it can. And so my emails are a line about them, a line about who we are, a one couple lines about, what we can do, and then out very short, brief. And I try to make my make it so easy to read, that they can click on to do because they’re going to be scanning on their phone or whatever, and they want to hit they want to delete it. That’s there. I’ve got to empty my email inbox. Let me delete this. Darn it! This guy actually caught my attention.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, you’re absolutely right. So I want to take a quick break. And when we come back and want to talk about how you’re using your content creation background, and just the whole way you thought through syndication and partnerships, how you’re using that in your Biz Dev efforts. First, we’ll take a quick break, and then we’ll come right back. Hey there, do you have an up and comer inside your agency? Who’s become your right hand person? How are you investing in them? Who are they surrounding themselves with? And who are they learning from? You might be interested in taking a look at our key executive network.

It’s built to help you groom the leaders in your agency. It’s designed to surround them with other AMI taught agency leaders, and it’s facilitated by one of our top coaches Craig Barnes. They meet twice a year and they stay connected in between meetings with calls, Zoom get togethers, and email. AMI agency owners call it one of the best professional development investments they’ve ever made. Head over to agencymanagementinstitute.com and look under the membership tab for key executive network.

All right, let’s get back to the interview. All right, we are back with Greg Jacobs. And we are talking about Biz Dev. So before the break, I said that I wanted to talk about, how are you marrying your former profession and skills with this new role that you have in Biz Dev? So how does content play a role in your Biz Dev efforts today?

Gregory Jacobs:

So I look at so what’s, again, consuming content, I think Sumner Redstone who passed a month ago or so had a line that content is king. And I liked that line. So again, like you say, content has been around a long time, it’s had different monikers of what it means. Here’s the challenge. A lot of brands have no idea what to do with their Instagram feed or with their YouTube feed. Brands think I should be there.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Gregory Jacobs:

But they’re there as a placeholder, and it’s just not thought through. So, I feel content can be that universal language. So if a brand has an interesting story, and most brands do, the brand has an interesting story, and you can tell that story in a short form piece of content, the brand then has an asset that they can use, and they can program across what I call, they’re owned and operated channels.

Drew McLellan:

Yep.

Gregory Jacobs:

And I’m when I get into these conversations with brands, sometimes they don’t quite understand what is. So an owned and operated channel, your own channel is your .com. Your operated channels are your Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, what have you, those are channels you operate that you control but you don’t own, the only place you actually own is your .com, or maybe your app that you pass it through. So if a brand can tell a story, and if a brand can tell a story with an everyday person, it’s quite strong, you see, so on influencers had the run and in telling the story, what I’m seeing now is everyday person telling a real life story about something that works can be smart. And so I take, sometimes I go back to the oldest trick in the book, a client has been around for 100 years, it’s their 100 year anniversary.

Let’s do a property about what it was like and what you’ve been through and how the founder started. And, Sam Adams was a client that my colleague was working on. And let’s talk about the founder and what they did. So I start with telling the brand story, every CMO would like to tell the story of their brand. And that’s something that they would like to do, it could be a complete luxury, they don’t have time to do it might not draw no drive the traffic. But it’s a nice ID piece. So I start there. If the brand has a unique story, let’s at least start with that. And then back in from there. The other things I try to ease brands into with content is, don’t be scared of long form content.

Don’t assume you have to go with long form content, you can back it down into short webisodic content, that is programed on your .com. But then is syndicated across your .com, onto YouTube, onto Instagram. And now you have relevant programming that is channeled or programmed or syndicated across all your platforms. And it has your brand integrated into it. What we did at Red Bull is, we tried to avoid can on hand. If we had somebody obnoxiously taking a drink of the product that was inauthentic. But rather if we did a big snowboarding film, or we would have the helicopter wrapped in our Red Bull logo with-

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Gregory Jacobs:

[inaudible 00:22:22] sun, and that was authentic because it was actually how we dropped the helicopter. But we would never have just the can on hand. So a lot of brands don’t understand, the consumer is so savvy these days, they know exactly who brought them the program, they know exactly where it came from and how the brand ties in, you don’t need to be shilling it with a bad product placement piece.

Drew McLellan:

So that’s a conversation you get to have with a prospect when they’ve opened the door and let you have it, you’re already using content to get them to let you open the door.

Gregory Jacobs:

It’s a back to the email I state. And again, you are the Biz Dev Rep. So this podcast is being listened to by any Biz Dev Reps, you are the Rep. You are your own brand. Every Biz Dev Rep has to have, this is what I do. And I’m good at it because of this. So I start with who I am as a brand. And then my brand fades into the agency that I work for. And so I say, “I’ve been doing this a long time, I know what good looks like, I can walk you through it.” And trust me. And so I will put two or three bullets of what I’ve done. And that typically allows a brand or a CMO or a VP of marketing to take a deep breath and go, “Okay, I can maybe trust this guy.” Because they, and that.

So that’s where I luckily have a background that I can push out there and say this is what I know how to do. And I’m really authentic in that space. So I’m lucky that way. And I drive that, point home. And I think one piece is go back for a second. And when you’re targeting your Rolodex, when you’re targeting your outreach to key execs at, key marketing execs at brands. Be careful not to go too deep into the org chart, meaning stay at the VP level or higher. Those are the ones that will make the decision. If they get bogged down and not taking anything away from the senior managers or the directors. They’re not there yet to make a decision. And I have a phrase I’ve used for a lot of years. “Don’t take no from somebody who can’t say yes.”

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, right. It’s okay.

Gregory Jacobs:

It’s really easy for a junior person to say no, because they don’t want to drive it up the flagpole. They don’t want to go to their boss and say this.

Drew McLellan:

But they don’t want to tell you that they don’t have the authority to say yes.

Gregory Jacobs:

They don’t want to tell you, they don’t have the authority.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Gregory Jacobs:

And so I would rather go to the top and either get passed down into somebody who didn’t has been basically knighted to go in, “Hey, talk to my x, y, z on my team, he or she can help you.”

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Gregory Jacobs:

But if you get bogged down with a lower person. And what you also don’t want to do is get to a lower person. And then they have an internal meeting. And they go, “Did you see this guy named Greg and reached out to me from this agency, and, he blanketed six of us. And he even sent a note to HR by accident, because he just simply pulled the mailing list down off a window and fired it off to everybody.” So make sure you go to the two top execs super customized, and in really one’s area of expertise. And again, back to your book. And I don’t mean to be showing your book, but it’s a great. So with authority. I know what your sell was something that nobody else can do, or that only a few others can do.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, I think one of the challenges in this cascade of people out there trying to sell, is the sea of sameness that I think a lot of agencies have to swim against. And so, how do you in your initial outreach, whether it’s email or something else, how do you begin to differentiate your agency so that they know who and what you are compared to everybody else?

Gregory Jacobs:

That is the where they call us the million dollar question. That’s a great question. I get I’ve been doing this for 30 plus years in the media space. And I’ve tried, I honestly probably have tried every approach, I start with we’re a boutique agency, okay, is that, White Glove Service, we can help you, we’re client focused. We’re a large agency, again, all things to all people, which does not work. And you and I talked about that’s not working.

I coin our agency as SCS, as the largest independent agency within Orange County, so South of LA. And that has some merit because of course, many agencies are owned by big [inaudible 00:22:22], as you know. So we’re an independent agency. And is there something interesting about that? I think so. I talked about that we’re financially stable. And I say that not that direct, but I make it sound like we’ve been along around for 35 years, or the main part of the business for mother’s car carriers are wise client, 35 years because I believe that our brand, CMOs want to cover their butt as best they can.

Drew McLellan:

Right. This is all about them not making a bad decision.

Gregory Jacobs:

But not making a bad decision in the end.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Gregory Jacobs:

So there’s two things, I can’t hire an agency that might be on shaky financial ground that might go out of business.

Drew McLellan:

Great.

Gregory Jacobs:

Because, I just can’t retrain. Two if I’m a CMO, my life expectancy is probably about two years.

Drew McLellan:

Great.

Gregory Jacobs:

Work, or three, I got a year in, I get, it takes me a year to figure out where I am and what I’m doing, a year to do something. And then I know I’m going to find that excellent.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Gregory Jacobs:

And so I get, I’m only going to have an agency for a period of time. And I also have to make sure that that agency is solid. So I’ll say that we’ve been around 35 years. So we’re of a certain size, and we’ve been around a long time. I don’t really get into other than the content expertise, we do the things that a lot of agencies do, they do media buying, and they do digital, and they do these things. I also sometimes stay away from calling it an ad agency, I think someone is an ad agency is a complicated word, are we a digital shop, and I use the word shop a lot, I think that sounds cool. And again, you want, my uncle was in the business. And he used to always say that when he would go into a client and he was, the CMO or the SVP of marketing would like it when the agency came in. Because it was a fun day for them. They knew, “Hey, I’ve got the agency coming in, I can wear a wild shirt, it can be fun for me.”

Drew McLellan:

Great.

Gregory Jacobs:

Brands want the agency to give them an experience or let them be the cool kids. So we’re the cool shop that still resonates, we will do the nuts and bolts of media buying, we’ll do the nuts and bolts of what goes into it. But we are the cool kids. And I think there’s something else you said when your podcast, don’t just get caught up in being the widget and doing the day in and day out grind, you’ve got to be a visionary. You’ve got to be where they’re excited to get on the call with you. And I go back to that cool kid piece. And so, I thought that-

Drew McLellan:

I think we have to forget where the sexy part of their job.

Gregory Jacobs:

100%.

Drew McLellan:

Come into the agency for a day. And, if you’ve got a cool environment, or you have dogs in the office, or, you have, a liquor cabinet or whatever it is that stereotypically defines a lot of agencies. When you think about the corporate environment that they live in, coming to our place is like going to Disneyland.

Gregory Jacobs:

Oh, my goodness!

Drew McLellan:

They can dress down, they know there’s going to have crazy food and snacks all through the meeting, they’re going to get to roll up their sleeves and do the fun part of their job, the ideation or the job brainstorming, thinking. So I think part of our job, even in the Biz Dev side, is to show them that this is going to be a fun experience as well as a successful experience.

Gregory Jacobs:

I completely agree there’s two pieces to it. There is, I would say there’s two shows. There’s the show for the client. And then the show that you’re doing or the project you’re doing. The project you’re doing can be nuts and bolts and get in the boat, but also the show for the client, the client wants to walk in the door of an ad shop, and to get have it’s escapism, I want to leave my cubicle and my brown walls of my corporate industrial gap, a corporate setting. And again, be what I want to be. Also it validates me, I’m a CMO. I’ve landed in this role, I need to be creative. And this creative team. And in our shop is fun in a way we have a slogan called Instigator or Instigators. And we use that, here and there, but you come in, we want you to forget the norms. And just for a moment, open your mind. And let’s just throw things at the wall and see what happens. We have that we’re in a safe space. So client come in, let your hair down. And let’s see what we can come up with. And we were going to throw you some wild ass ideas.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Gregory Jacobs:

And we’ll get back down from there. But let’s just let’s experiment. And I worry that agencies have lost the guts to experiment. Got to make the money. We got to make the margin, we got to do this.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Gregory Jacobs:

What happened to, we are an ad shop is been sexy for years because we give something fun to the business.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. And, one of the things I worry about is as some agencies are coming out of COVID. And they’re looking at, they’ve been productive while they’ve worked from home agency owner goes, “You know what, maybe we don’t need to pay rent for the building anymore. Maybe we can just go virtual.” And I think there’s a lot of loss in that. But I think one of the losses is, we do get pretty perfunctory then with the client. If all we’re doing is having Zoom meetings and checking off boxes and getting things done, we are no longer the cool kids or the sexy people that are fun to hang out with. So now, we’re just another grind part of their day where we’re nagging them for assets or whatever, but we’re not the relief that we used to be that they used to be excited about hanging out with us.

Gregory Jacobs:

I cannot agree more. And I think if you do have a class, a real estate or a large building, and you’re not sure if you’re going to bring everybody back, or how you’re going to do it, at least have it the studio space. At least have a place you can bring the client for those particular meetings. You may not want to need house everybody in one house as we go forward and what the future looks like. But you got to make sure you have a cool space.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Gregory Jacobs:

And I always, you always joke about snacks. And, every agency has snacks, and they have employees. But, every time we have a client in, they love the idea of snacks, or we’re catering in lunch, or if they’re there, and it’s getting close to five, and the bar is open the bar cards going to come around.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Gregory Jacobs:

And those who don’t drink real course, respectful of that. But are you kidding, I’m going to have a cocktail we’re going to hang and then they always loosen their tie for lack of a better phrase, and they lean back and they go, what would you do if you were me, agency? What would you do if you were in my shoes?

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Gregory Jacobs:

Okay, great. Let’s talk about that debt.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, I think it fosters great conversations.

Gregory Jacobs:

100% I think what you’re saying is, this two dimensional world we have with Zoom, we don’t differentiate ourselves.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Gregory Jacobs:

And I hope that will, come back and be able to do and again, if you’re an agency, and you’ve got a lot of space, can you, get rid of some of that space. But hold is really cool. A studio place for people to come into.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, well, and I think too, and this is a little off topic. But I also think, I think it’s really hard to be creative and collaborative in this environment. I think being in a room, even when there’s no client around, and you’re kicking ideas around and you’re writing things on the wall, and you got a bunch of reference books are your computer’s up, and you’re online looking for ideas, and you’re spit balling things, I think that’s really hard to do, on the Zoom environment. I think we’ve done it because we’ve had to, but when I talk to agency owners, what they say is, “Our work over the past year has been fine.” Right? “It’s gotten the job done, it’s been okay, but it’s not inspired, like it was when we were in the same space.” So it’ll be interesting to see how that plays out. But back to Biz Dev.

So my last question for you is imagine that you’ve been brought into a university class, and you’re speaking to people at a graduate level, who are going to step into a Biz Dev role in an agency. What, you’ve got years and years of sales experience. What would you tell them, these are young kids who are going to break into the field. Because I also think there’s a shift in how agencies sell so used to be we went and found our clients. Because there, back when I started in the business, there wasn’t really an internet where you could go to find agencies, so if you didn’t know about them in your local networking meeting, or, your rotary club, or word of mouth or whatever, they didn’t exist. But today, our research shows over and over, clients aren’t waiting for us to find them. They are finding us. And then they get hooked up with a Biz Dev person. And now the conversation goes. So what would you say to them? How would you recommend they step into this field to be successful?

Gregory Jacobs:

So I think, one of two things, first off, I would applaud them for wanting to get into the Biz Dev side of the business. I think if you are a young adult getting into the space, and we have an ad to division that’s tied to us for younger ad execs that are coming into the business. If you’re young, and you’re getting into it many times they want to be a creative, they want to be a copywriter, they want to be even an account exec, but you never hear them say, “I want to be on the Biz Dev side.” And so I applaud them for that. And then secondly, I would say, “Find a niche, find an industry area, the industry or a brand area that you like, whether it’s lifestyle, outdoor, automotive, CPG, even CPG can sound boring, but it can be good. Find one area that is an area of expertise, and go really deep in that area. Understand who the brands are, what are the brands spending, what their feeling is. So start to know your space. So take one area minds lifestyle or adventure programming.”

And so that’s something I’m really deep in I know a lot about it. I know who the players are. And I would say that’s the one area to get into. The other thing is, “Look around you and see who is the competition out there? Who are the other Biz Dev Reps, that are doing what you do? And start in your area, and find out what are the best. What are others doing because nine times out of 10 your emails will cross with whom they’re pitching as well.”

Drew McLellan:

Sure, right.

Gregory Jacobs:

And then it’s hard to say but don’t be cheesy. And I just as a blanket statement, but be authentic and have your homework done. And then don’t abuse I’ll use this as a piece to it. So I’m applauding them for being in this space. “Good guys, you’re doing Biz Dev. If you get good at it, you can be plugged into any agency.” There’s one thing about Biz Dev that works, is that, you have a skill set that can be transferable. So glad you’re doing it, find a space that you’re passionate about or an area you really want to learn a lot about, look at the heritage of it and respect the business, respect to advertising. And then also, look at the competition that’s out there. The other thing I would do is do not pollute LinkedIn, if you have your own brand profile LinkedIn, do not use that to cold outreach, do not use that to send, don’t send somebody a LinkedIn and they accept your LinkedIn and then fire off a LinkedIn, “Hey, you accepted me, here’s what I want to do.”

Drew McLellan:

Right, I want to sell you something.

Gregory Jacobs:

I want to sell you something. I don’t mind if you want to research them on LinkedIn, and then go via email into them. That’s a softer approach, but do not infiltrate their LinkedIn platform. If we start to do that, and that becomes a bad habit of Biz Dev Reps, it’s going to cause LinkedIn and those who are on it to be more guarded. I see that people are not yet guarded about LinkedIn, my profiles up there, I’m okay. I’ll accept some invites. But if I start to see that nine out of 10 of my invites are then going to hit me with an AI response, I’m going to be classed as a LinkedIn and we are at a tipping point where LinkedIn is going to be polluted by bad actors using it to shorten their game.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. Okay, I lied, I have one more question for you. If agency owners are listening to this, and they don’t want to be the Biz Dev person in their shop, they want to hire a Biz Dev person. How in their interview process, can they figure it out, somebody who’s actually going to be good at this job? Because I will tell you, most agency owners end up being the de facto salesperson, because they’ve tried hiring a couple Biz Dev people, they lost their shirt, they didn’t earn back what they paid that person. And so they’ve decided, screw it, I’m going to do it myself. But if their game to try and find a Biz Dev person, what would you suggest they look for?

Gregory Jacobs:

Wonderful question. Okay, a gift of gab, I think you have to have that, but no authentic way I think there’s. So there’s people who can be socially in tune. So, I can chat up people very comfortably. I’m not going to be the smartest guy in the room. I’m not going to run through CPMs to such a level that you’re going to, but I can make you feel comfortable and feel part of it. So first off is pure personality. They cannot have any personality being a robot. They’ve got to be very personable, very approachable, and somebody that you want to go have a beer with. Secondly, I would say do you mind I want to call the last three clients that you sold. And I want to call your point of contact. And I would call that brand exec, who hired that agency because of that Biz Dev Rep. And I would say, “What was your experience?” I know it sounds very clinical.

But if I said to a new agency looking to hire me as a Biz Dev Rep, I’d say, “Call these last five people. And just ask them how I approach the market. And they’ll tell you, Greg approached it, he’s professional, he had a focus, he was able to make us feel comfortable about it.” And that type of thing. The other thing is, I would give him a homework assignment. “Go away and come back tomorrow or in two days, and pitch me my agency.”

And if that person is going to take the time to really do the research and via, if the person can figure out a strong enough pitch about the agency, back to who’s interviewing them in 48 hours, or 72 hours or a week, and if they can’t get you pitched about your agency that quickly, then there’s a disconnect or they’re not putting the time into it. Now, I don’t want that to be confused with what you said. It takes them more time to really understand how to pitch the agency of the marketplace. Yes, but they can quickly come back to you and say, “This is how, here’s my thumbnail sketch of how I pitch you.”

Drew McLellan:

Right. It’s okay, they can at least get to the outline stage.

Gregory Jacobs:

Outline?

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. So great.

Gregory Jacobs:

You know what? Go away, come back and pitch me. I’m a client pitch me up Google what we do. And you’ll see a laziness where they won’t do the research. You’ll see where they did not go do the research. They didn’t dig deeply my background, or what the heritage agency is, they didn’t even barely go to the .com. If they went to our .com, they didn’t even go through some of the tabs. They didn’t get to the About Us tab.

Drew McLellan:

Great.

Gregory Jacobs:

I think you’ll be surprised with how many Biz Dev execs will shorten that or come back to you without actually thinking it through. So, ask for a reference who have they sold business to recently? And then “Hey, pitch me.”

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Gregory Jacobs:

And then also just give them the time to get out there in the market, pay them something. Don’t think a commission only Biz Dev Rep is going to give you their his or her heart soul, they’re not. Because they’re going to find three or four others that they’re pitching. And all of a sudden it’s going to blend together and their message is going to be very uniform. They’re going to pitch five agencies the same way because they’re not beholden to one, because one agency hasn’t stepped up to give them some retainer to make it feel like they belong.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, good advice. Thanks, Greg, this has been a conversation with lots of meaty nuggets that listeners can take back and either apply to their own Biz Dev efforts if they are the Biz Dev person inside their shop, or can share with whoever’s doing that for their agency, or can apply as they begin to look for the right team member to help them sell their agency. So you gave them a lot of meat on the bone. So I appreciate that very much.

Gregory Jacobs:

Right. And I appreciate you having me on. This has been fun. Again I’m a fan of your podcast. I’ve been for, almost five years now wasn’t October, your five year anniversary to podcast?

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. It’s crazy.

Gregory Jacobs:

You do great job.

Drew McLellan:

[inaudible 00:22:22] years, it goes by quick. Hey, if folks want to learn more about you, or connect with you, or reach out with a question, what’s the best way for them to track you down?

Gregory Jacobs:

So there’s two things my personal email is greg@gregorys, as in Scott, Jacobs. So [email protected]. And on my LinkedIn, which is Gregory Scott Jacobs, and just like it sounds, Gregory Scott Jacobs is my LinkedIn. And then of course, I’m at an agency in Southern California called SCS. And I’m on their Biz Dev team and my profiles on their website. So our website there is wearescs.com.

Drew McLellan:

Okay, I’ll include all that in the show notes, too.

Gregory Jacobs:

That’s great. And again Drew I really appreciate you having me on.

Drew McLellan:

You bet. It was fun. Thanks for having the conversation. Alright, guys, this wraps up another episode of Build a Better Agency. Before I let you go, I want to remind you that every month actually every five weeks, if you’re going to get technical, every time I do a solo cast. We give away a free seat to either one of our on demand workshops, or one of our live workshops. And the only thing you have to do to be in the drawing for that. So again, that’s about a $2,000 value.

And the cost of entry to get into the drawing is, you need to go wherever you download the podcast and leave a rating and review. Remember to take a screenshot of it, and send it to me at [email protected], because if your user ID is world traveler 12, I have no idea who that is, I don’t know who you are to award you the prize. But if you send it to me, then I can connect your username and that specific review to you and make sure that you get the prize. So once you’ve done it, you don’t need to do it again, because you will stay in the drawing until you win. And that’s a simple five minute task, which, helps us get the podcast out to more folks. And b, might get you into one of our workshops, which I think you will enjoy and benefit from. So it’s a mutual opportunity for us. So if you’ll do that, that would be great.

Before I let you go, I just want to give a quick shout out as always, to our friends at White Label IQ. As the presenting sponsor, they are super important to helping us produce great content for you that helps you build and grow your agency. But honestly, they help agencies build and grow. In other ways too, they are a great resource. If you need an extra set of hands for or you need a partner to do it all completely if you don’t have anybody in house, to do White Label PPC, website development or app development and design, head over to whitelabeliq.com/ami. And I’ve told you the story before but I will repeat it, in case you missed it. I can attest to the fact that these guys are good at what they do, because they’ve done it for my agency and they have pulled our fanny out of the fire more than once, when we’ve had a project that we needed some extra help in and they were fantastic to work with. They didn’t miss a single deadline.

They honored their budget and their estimates, they were just really a great partner. So check them out whitelabeliq.com/ami. And if they can be helpful to you, I know they would be happy to do that. I’m going to be back next week with another guest getting you to think a little bit differently about your business, and helping you make more money and keep more of the money you make. In the meantime, you know how to track me down. I’m [email protected], I should picked up shorter URL, or you can find me on all social media just as Drew McLellan. So I will be happy to connect with you in any of those places. Or I will see you next week. Talk to you soon. Thanks for listening. Thanks for spending some time with us. Visit our website to learn about our workshops, owner peer groups and download our salary and benefits survey. Be sure you also sign up for our free podcast giveaways at agencymanagementinstitute.com/podcast giveaway.