Web development seems to be a constant conundrum for most agency owners. It’s hard to hire and it’s even tougher to make money on web projects these days. On top of the profitability issue, there’s the scope creep and timeline challenges. Many agencies have actually gotten out of the web dev side of the business.

But is that the right choice?

My podcast guest Luke Summerfield would say no. He’s got a different way of looking at building out websites and other digital assets. He calls it Growth-Driven Design, a smarter approach to web design. It’s a methodology that puts a whole new perspective on web dev both for your shop and your clients. Rather than a one and done product as most agencies view websites, Luke and his team take an iterative approach to making their websites an ongoing project with stages and continuous improvement.

Join Luke and I as he walks you through this new way of selling and creating websites that deliver for both your clients and your agency.

  • Growth-driven design: what this “smarter way to do web design” is all about
  • Why the platform you use for your website doesn’t matter with growth-driven design
  • How growth-driven design was born out of the pain both agencies and clients felt around web development and why this system is so much better than previous ways of doing web dev
  • Step 1: getting an empathetic understanding of your client’s audience’s world
  • Step 2: building a “launch pad” website — something that looks and performs better than what the client already has but is not the final product
  • Step 3: continually improving websites
  • How to sell and price growth-driven design to clients
  • Why you should always sell at least 15 hours a month of growth-driven design and why you need at least a six month engagement from a client
  • The stats that prove that growth-driven design gets more leads than traditional design
  • Why growth-driven design still works great when you outsource the coding piece of web design
  • All the assets Luke has on his website

Luke Summerfield wakes up each morning excited to discover, experience, and share moments of inspirations. He does this at HubSpot, advising startups, writing, and speaking.

He founded the Growth-Driven Design movement which is transforming the world of web design. In the first twelve months, they grew from 0 -> 940 agencies in 50 countries offering GDD services to clients. Previous to HubSpot, Luke helped grow a digital marketing agency until it was acquired in 2014.

Outside of work, he trains Mixed Martial Arts / Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and rough houses with his pug puppy, Mac.

To listen – you can visit the Build A Better Agency site (https://agencymanagementinstitute.com/luke-summerfield/) and grab either the iTunes or Stitcher files or just listen to it from the web.

If you’d rather just read the conversation, the transcript is below:

Table of Contents (Jump Straight to It!)

  1. Defining Growth-Driven Design
  2. How Luke Moved into Leading an Internal Company at HubSpot
  3. Step #1: Getting an Empathetic Understanding of Your Client’s Audience’s World
  4. Step #2: Building a “Launch Pad” Website
  5. How Luke Coaches Agencies to Sell Their Web Development Services
  6. How Growth-Driven Design’s Pricing is Structured
  7. How Long it Typically Takes to Implement this Process
  8. What Agencies Might Need to Tweak with Growth-Driven Design
  9. Some of the Challenges when Implementing the Growth-Driven Design Process

If you’re going to take the risk of running an agency, shouldn’t you get the benefits too? Welcome to Agency Management Institute’s Build a Better Agency Podcast, presented by HubSpot.

We’ll show you how to build an agency that can scale and grow with better clients, invested employees, and best of all, more money to the bottom line. Bringing his 25-plus years of experience as both an agency owner and agency consultant to you, please welcome your host, Drew McLellan.

Drew McLellan: Hey everybody, Drew McLellan here with another episode of Build a Better Agency. Thanks for coming back or thanks for joining us for the first time, if this is your first episode. If this is your first episode, you picked a good one. We are gonna talk about a topic that many agency owners and leaders scratch their head around. And that’s the whole idea of actually making money with web dev.

And so, today my guest has quite a depth of expertise in this category, in this area. And so, I’m gonna pick his brain as best I can to get as much thought-provoking content, and ideas, and new ways for you to think about things as I can in the hour that we have.

So, let me tell you a little bit about him. So, Luke Summerfield works at HubSpot, he’s been there a few years, he actually leads an internal startup at HubSpot, called Growth-Driven Design. And that startup is focused on really transforming the way that web design and the web-design industry builds and optimizes websites.

So, they are built on the model that you would expect. Very much like a lean startup and with a lot of experimentation. But they have grown to serving over 940 agencies in the first 12 months of service. And those agencies are in 50 countries that are now offering Growth-Driven Design to their clients.

Prior to joining HubSpot, Luke was with a digital marketing agency, and it was acquired in 2014, and so then he moved over to HubSpot. So, Luke, welcome to the podcast.

Luke S.: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Defining Growth-Driven Design

Drew McLellan: So, let’s start right off, because people, I’m sure, are going, “Okay, what is Growth-Driven Design?” So, let’s start just right off the bat by defining that for folks.

Luke S.: Yeah, Growth-Driven Design is essentially a smarter approach to web design. And I’ll get into the … I think a lot of it is, we’ll get into the story of where it came from and probably the story will sound pretty similar to a lot of you that are listening today. All of you are my people. My agency folks are my people.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: So, I’m glad to be on here. So, we’ll talk about the story but essentially what Growth-Driven Design is, is a smarter approach to web design that minimizes all of the risks, all of the headaches, all of the frustrations, not only for your clients but also for you as an agency owner.

It is a smarter approach to web design that continuously improves using data and experimentation to inform how to improve the site over time. And it’s a smarter approach to web design that informs other parts of the business. So as you’re learning about your users, as you’re collecting that data and making decisions on how to improve the website, how does that impact what you’re doing on the sales side of things when you’re helping their sales teams? How is that helping impacting what’s going on with the marketing? And vice versa.

As their product team, as their customer service team, as you’re learning on the marketing team. How do those other things that you’re learning help impact what you build on the website?

Drew McLellan: Okay. And so, is this tool agnostic? Does it matter what I’m building the website in?

Luke S.: It is tool agnostic. So, it’s just a methodology and a process. And for many of you, it’s probably nothing, you know you’re probably doing bits and pieces of this. I invented nothing new, I just pulled a lot of different ideas from the startup world. How startups kinda scale and grow, and where they focus. I pulled a bunch of ideas from the conversion-rate optimization, and UX, user-experience world.

And I pulled some ideas from what our internal product-growth teams are doing. So, what we’re doing to try and build our software. And what a lot of the product-growth teams in Silicon Valley are doing.

And really pulled all those ideas together into something that allows you to be able to execute with your team, but is also in a very packaged way, to easily educate and sell to prospects. And easily execute on the services side. So, you know, again, it’s tool agnostic, it’s just a process, just a methodology. And again, you may already be doing bits and pieces. So, hopefully something that you can easily jump into.

How Luke Moved into Leading an Internal Company at HubSpot

Drew McLellan: So, you were at HubSpot, and you were doing sort of a more mainstream job. How did you move into leading an internal company inside the company?

Luke S.: It started as … I would say I actually started in a non-traditional role, because I actually didn’t have a role. When, previous to HubSpot as you mentioned, I was working for an agency and happy to chat about that. That’s where the original idea of Growth-Driven Design came in. And when I got hired by HubSpot, they essentially hired me without a position. And just said, “We know you’ll find some way to provide value and help, uh, our agencies grow.” I said, “Okay, cool.”

And that’s pretty cool, but that also is a little bit daunting.

Drew McLellan: Little bit of pressure. Right.

Luke S.: No defined guidelines or roles. It was just, “Figure it out.” And so, they gave me two company-wide metrics that I was focused on trying to improve. And then that was about it. They said, “Go figure it out.” And so, I thought back to my agency days and the things that we struggled with as an agency. And some of the problems that we were trying to solve. And one of those problems, you know, I tried maybe 10 different experiments.

And the one experiment at HubSpot that I tried with agencies that really started building traction quickly was this idea of Growth-Driven Design. And that really spoke to … Really what it was, was trying to solve the things that many of you listening are probably experiencing, unprofitable web projects that are going over budget, getting delivered late.

Drew McLellan: Right. Out of scope.

Luke S.: Out of scope. Right. Scope creep never happens. Right?

Drew McLellan: No.

Luke S.: That’s everyone. Every single project. So, to give you a little background on the agency, when I worked there, we were a three-person dev shop, specifically, when we started it was Joomla 1.0, so for all you … Anyone in the Joomla world, you can kind of remember back to Joomla-1.0 days. And we grew, we became HubSpot partners in over about three and a half years we were gold partners with them on the marketing side.

But, that was still only 25 percent of our revenue. 75 percent of our revenue was coming from web design. And so, what ended up happening is we were growing 40 percent revenue year-over-year. And Gabe, the owner, was really smart and he said basically, “If we keep growing like this, the train’s gonna come off the tracks.”

Drew McLellan: Yeah, right.

Luke S.: We’re gonna really start to implode. Growing from three to 15 in three years, and just the revenue side of things as well. And so we took a step back and what my role at that point was during that year is we said, “We want, only want to grow 10 percent, we want to fire our worst clients. And we want to really be picky on who we bring on. And then we really want to focus on our processes and our operations to make sure that we can become profitable and really build this machine for scaling past 15.”

And when we looked at that, one of the biggest problems we ran into was the 75 percent, which was our web design revenue. It was almost inevitably they always, again, went out of scope, the scope creep happened, went out of scope, which that time has to come from somewhere.

So, in some cases we could go back to clients and say, “Look, you know, we, we, this is a whole new feature. Something we didn’t talk about. We’re happy to build it, but we have to, you know, expand the size of the engagement and do an addendum onto the contract.”

But, most of the time, it creeps up on you. It’s like a … You know, scope creep, they call it that for a reason, but you’ll have like 20 minutes here, an hour extra there. You know, 35 minutes here. Just little things that over the course of a six-month long project, really add up to a good chunk of time, and inevitably your company, your agency usually eats that time. And that means that your profit margins tank.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: And essentially … You know, we had projects that we worked on for four months and we looked back and we actually lost money. We paid to work for the last four months with our developers. And, so that was-

Drew McLellan: That’s a painful thing is to realize you’re actually paying for the privilege of doing the work. Yep.

Luke S.: Well, I mean, believe it or not, we’re all businesses.

Drew McLellan: Yep.

Luke S.: As passionate as we are and as much as we love doing this stuff. And we probably would do it for free. We are businesses and we have teams that we have to pay.

Drew McLellan: Yeah, not a great plan. Yep.

Luke S.: We all have goals that we’re trying to get to in terms of where we’re growing our businesses. So, that was a big blow. And so, really what we looked at is, you know, the other thing with the web design clients, if they were not in a marketing engagement with us, we were essentially building the website and having a pretty tight knit relationship with them over three to six months. And then we would basically say, “All right, we’ll talk to you later.” And we really wouldn’t talk to them until they needed another website a year and a half to two years later.

And we knew that we were not only leaving … We were not doing the best for getting our clients to their goals by just kinda leaving them hanging. But also, we were leaving money on the table.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: And so, when we looked at the email-marketing side of our business, which was a retainer-based business model, where you signed up for 12 months, or six months, and you had a specific amount each month. And we just continued working with you and growing over time. That type of a, not only, business model but the value that our clients were able to get from that model of continuously improving, continuously working, continuously bringing value made a lot more sense.

And then we had like this other business over on the other side of the web development that was bits and pieces.

So, way back when, recognizing this problem when we took that year of slow growth, but really firming up the business, we looked at launching a service called Continuous Web Improvement. And it was not the sexiest name, but really the idea was we’re gonna launch a site, and then we’re gonna improve off of it after that.

And that was the seed that was eventually brought into with Growth-Driven Design. And so, we ended up getting acquired shortly after that, and because of that the idea fizzled out a bit. And when I came to HubSpot, I thought … You know, tasked with how do I help our agencies grow? How do we help our different businesses grow? I thought back to the challenges that I ran into and what we were trying to solve for ourselves and it really was a challenge that we’re all struggling with.

Drew McLellan: Yep.

Luke S.: It wasn’t just our agency.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: It’s an industry-wide problem. And on the flip side, your clients, whether they tell you or not, they hate doing website redesigns. It is a pain in the butt.

Drew McLellan: Well, they want to do it once and then be done forever. Yeah.

Luke S.: And because the process is so painful.

Drew McLellan: Right. Right.

Luke S.: You know, and so all of that really seeded what has now evolved into Growth-Driven Design as it sits today, which, as you mentioned, now a year after launching it officially with our certification we have, we now have over 1,000 agencies in 50 countries, servicing their clients with Growth-Driven Design.

And the growth of that really just ties back to the pain that we’re all really feeling, and then the success stories that a lot of them are experiencing.

Step #1: Getting an Empathetic Understanding of Your Client’s Audience’s World

Drew McLellan: So, I know that when I spend some time on growthdrivendesign.com that there are some phases, or steps that are the cornerstones of this process. Walk us through those and help us understand how they’re different from what everybody else is doing as they piecemeal together websites.

Luke S.: Sure. The methodology has essentially three steps. And the first step is on a high level the first step is probably what you’re doing today. Or a lot of you are doing today, which is the strategy step. And really, what the goal of the strategy step is, is to get an empathetic understanding of the world of your client’s audience. Right?

So, who are their personas? Or who are the people that they’re serving? And to get a view into their world. And now, what that’s going to allow us to do … So, that really leans into a lot of the UX and UX-research side of things. So that you can gain that really deep understanding. We use things like the goal setting of what kind of goal is the client trying to achieve? And where does the website fit in? What does the website act as a lever to try and achieve that goal?

And we also look outside of just generating leads. You know, a lot of times as a marketing agency, that’s what they’re hiring us for.

Drew McLellan: Sure.

Luke S.: But in reality, they’re hiring us to grow their business. And in some cases that may be you working on their website to help them with recruitment efforts. It may be trying for them to decrease support tickets. So you’re building a knowledge or a support section onto their website.

It could be building sales-enablement materials into the site. There’s a lot of different aspects the website touches on in the business, other than just generating leads. So, we really need to flesh some of that out in the goals setting.

And then we go into what we call the jobs-to-be-done framework. That’s a framework that’s being adopted by many of the product teams in Silicon Valley now. And that allows you to figure out what kind of job that is the client’s audience hiring your client for. What kind of progress are they trying to make in their life? And then, how do we position and talk about some of the things that are involved in the jobs-to-be-done framework.

We could probably talk all day just about that.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: So, we go through jobs to be done, we go through persona development once we have that. Many of you are probably familiar with personas. Then we get into journey mapping and so on and so forth. We really want to get a detailed look at the person’s world, because what we want to do is, we want to build a website that is woven into that story that person is on, that journey that person is on. Whereas traditionally, we build kind of a site in its own bubble, and then we throw it at them, and hopefully it sticks at certain points during that journey.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: Versus starting with the journey and building around that. Now all of that probably sounds pretty familiar to you. Any of you that are doing a bit more UX, and a bit more user-experience research.

Now, where it gets a bit different is at the end of the strategy, the goal is to come out with what we call a wish list. And a wish list is 75 to 200 or more ideas of all of the most impactful, most important things that you can build to help provide value to that end audience, we call them the end users. And to, at the same time, allow the business to capture a bit of that value in the sense of lead generation. Or if it’s an e-commerce store. You know, a sale, whatever that is.

Drew McLellan: So, give us some examples of what might show up on a wish list.

Luke S.: Sure, it could be from a very high level. You know, sections that need to be on the site. It could be go all the way down to very granular stuff like certain specific integrations that need to happen on the backend. It could be strategic partnerships with other websites. There’s a very big range from small to high. And that list is gonna come from the research that you do when you’re looking at your users and trying to basically problem solve the problems they’re running into. And then turn that into things you can build on the site to solve those problems.

It’s also gonna depend on what they have on their existing site. Right?

Drew McLellan: Sure.

Luke S.: So they’re gonna have things that are on their existing site that are providing value, that are helpful. And you have to figure out how do we adapt and migrate, or weave that into the new site?

And then, of course the business itself probably has goals related to, again, recruiting or HR, or it could be the services team that’s trying to decrease support tickets. Whatever those goals are that are business needs.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: And what you need to do as a team is you need to strategically organize that wish list based off of the impact that those things have on the goals that you’re trying to achieve, and the value or problems that the end users are trying to solve.

So, again, it could be very high, it could be, “We need this whole section.” Could be very, very granular where it’s like on the pricing page, we need to have a chat feature, we need to have some type of way to solve this common question that we always hear, that our sales reps are always, always hearing, but we want to address that ahead of time before they talk to a sales rep on the pricing page.

Drew McLellan: Okay. And so, again I’m guessing the listeners are going, “Yep, yep, yep.” In some fashion or form, and often not the same way, both, more than once.

Luke S.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Drew McLellan: We do that. Right?

Luke S.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Step #2: Building a “Launch Pad” Website

Drew McLellan: So, what does phase two contain?

Luke S.: So phase two is essentially building what we call a launchpad website, and a launchpad website is a site that looks better than what they have today. It performs better than what they have today. But it’s not the final product. It is not perfect.

Drew McLellan: When I was looking at the site, that I love the sentence, “Quickly build a website.” And I thought, “Okay, when, how often does that happen?” Right?

Luke S.: Well, in traditional, it doesn’t.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: Because here’s the problem with traditional. The problem with traditional design is that the client feels like every single thing needs to be absolutely perfect. All the features they ever want need to be in there, all the pages from other folks, all the content needs to be done 100 percent perfect, because once it launches, they’re not gonna touch it again.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: That’s just their mentality with traditional.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: And so, that’s been a little bit of an educational process that happens in the sales process, that you have to get them to understand that, look, that’s not possible. And there’s no such thing as perfect. And if we chase perfect, you’re gonna run into all the frustration, you’re gonna run into all the scope creep. You’re gonna run into all these problems that you always hit, because we’re trying to chase that perfect.

Drew McLellan: And even if you get perfect today, by tomorrow some piece of it will be obsolete.

Luke S.: Exactly.

Drew McLellan: Yeah.

Luke S.: Exactly. You know, and what we consider complete today, they’re always going to be changing, adding, not only new things, but also you can always optimize the existing things.

And so, that’s what the launchpad website is all about. And there’s multiple ways you can go about building a launchpad website. I think the misconception that everyone jumps to right away is to just cut down all their content, build kind of a small, incomplete site.

And that might work for some clients. There may be a startup, or there may be someone who already has a small site that they can start with something small. But of course, you have enterprise-level clients that have large site, you may not be able to go that route.

And so, there’s a number of different routes and a number of different ways that you can … Essentially the goal is to launch something that looks and performs better, and you launch it quicker than if you did traditional design. And the reason being is that when we go about building a website, we try to collect as much data as we can. But really, we’re operating within a bubble. The things that we’re building are assumptions of what we think work well. And those assumptions are based off of industry best practices, maybe what worked well in the past, what design trends are. There’s still assumptions.

Just because it worked with one client, does not mean it’s gonna work well for that client. Even if they’re in the same industry, they could have different audiences.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: And so what we need to do is get out of that bubble, and let the users start interacting with the site, because once we have that data, once we have that behavioral data, that behavioral data will help guide us in what and how we need to build the site.

So, there’s a slight shift in the mentality from a designer-driven process. Meaning the designer dictates how and what we build, and how to make it look pretty, and all of that. To the user tells us. Now, they don’t actually quote-unquote call us up and tell us. But they’re telling us through their behavior and the actions that they’re doing.

And so, that’s where … The only way for us to do that, to get that data is to get something out there, and that’s why we need to try and launch something that, again, looks better, performs better, but it’s not perfect and we can always build, and we will build, once we move into the continuous improvement stage.

How Luke Coaches Agencies to Sell Their Web Development Services

Drew McLellan: So, this obviously requires a very different sales mentality, because most agencies are used to selling a website as a finished thing with maybe an SEO package on the backend, or something else. But, it’s certainly not a “We will build it and then we will keep tweaking it forever and ever and ever, and we will never be done.”

So, talk us through the sales conversation, because I’m sure as you are working with agencies and helping them, not only learn the methodology, but figure out how to sell this and stay profitable, you’re coaching them on how to talk about web dev in a different way. So, what does that look like?

Luke S.: Yeah, you’re exactly right. It’s kinda funny, this is very much like where inbound marketing was eight years ago. When I was at the agency, we had clients that came to us and they said, “Well, we need SEO.” Said, “Okay, well why do you need SEO?” And we’d boil it down, and basically it came down to they needed leads for their business.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: And so, we had to educate them and say, “Look. Uh, if you want leads, SEO is an important part, but that’s only one piece of the bigger puzzle. You really need a complete system that’s gonna help you get to your goals, and that system is called inbound marketing.”

And so, there was this whole education that needed to happen in the sales process back six, eight years ago, with inbound marketing, which now we’re kind of in like a little bit spoiled period where a lot of times they’ll come to you wanting inbound marketing.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: They’ll already know what it is, they’re already familiar with it. They said, “We need inbound marketing.” And so, with Growth-Driven Design, we’re in that period eight years ago, where we need to do a lot of that education and get the lightbulb to go off in our prospects’ heads, because this is a new concept, just like inbound marketing was a number of years ago.

And so, the first thing that you need to do is really anchor how important their website is to their business. You know, ask them a question like, “What would happen to your business if your website disappeared tomorrow? How, how impactful would that impact the business?” Really get them to understand how important the website is. And how it’s an investment in the growth of their business for the future.

And once they understand that, that’s kinda step one is them putting value on investing in their website. Then step two is to start talking about how often, now that we’ve established how important your website is and it’s your number one marketing asset, your number one salesperson working 24 hours a day, seven days a week. How often do you make impactful improvements on your website?

And what we find is that most people don’t. Like we talked about earlier. They build it and then they move on to other …

Drew McLellan: Yeah. Yeah. They might update some content or a blog or whatever, but other than that it pretty much stays the same.

Luke S.: Impactful improvements.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: Things that are gonna drive disproportionate outcome to the results, you know, to the goals you’re trying to achieve. And it’s not very often. And so, the analogy, what I recommend with a lot of agencies is to find an analogy that works really well for your industry.

So, let me give you an example. One comes from Sean Fitzgerald from ThomasNet, they’re one of our diamond partners at HubSpot. And the analogy, they work exclusively in the manufacturing space, and so what he’ll do in the prospecting call is he’ll use an analogy and say, “You know, hey, um, what’s the, what’s the goal of your assembly floor line?” They say, “Well, they want to produce widgets as fast as possible. The more efficient we are the more profit we make.” He says, “Okay cool. Have you ever bought a new machine for your assembly floor?”

He says, “Yeah, we’ve bought new machines.” And he said, “Oh, do they work out of the box? You know, do you put them on there and they work, work out of the box?”

He said, “No, you know, we buy a machine, it produces widgets but we have to put an engineer on there, and the engineer times it, tweaks it, adjusts it. And over the course of a period of a few months, it finally gets really synced up with our specific process.”

And he said, “That’s the exact same thing we have to do with your website. We’re gonna build a website that works, that produces leads, produces better than what you have today. But just like you have to put an engineer on that to tweak that machine and get it really humming, that’s what we’re gonna do with your website.”

And so, that analogy helps them kinda click to something that they’re already familiar with.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: You know, another analogy, if you are talking to sales folks, you could talk about hiring a new sales rep. You know, when you hire a new sales rep and you put them on the floor to work calls, do they produce at their peak performance? Do they close at their peak close rate? Do they generate enough qualified leads? And move them through efficiently? Of course not.

You have to coach them and evolve them over time. And again, it’s very similar and when you first put the website out there, if you think of it as your number one salesperson, you don’t just throw your sales rep on the front line and talk to them later, you have to coach them, just like you have to coach your website.

Drew McLellan: Yeah.

Luke S.: So, that analogy is really important in the sales process. You know, for them to understand this new concept.

How Growth-Driven Design’s Pricing is Structured

Drew McLellan: So, I want to get into two things. I want to talk a little bit about how pricing changes. And I also want to talk about how this impacts agencies that sell web dev, but they do it through partners. So, I want to dive into both of those, but first let’s take a quick break and then we’ll come right back.

All right, welcome back, I am here chatting with Luke Summerfield, who is working with Growth-Driven Design, which is a startup inside HubSpot all around changing the way we think about the world of web design.

So, before the break, I said I wanted to cover two things, one which is how is this structured from a pricing point of view? So, most agencies, even if they’re gonna build a phase or two into the process, you know, their clients want a fixed cost, or a ballpark price. So, in your methodology, how does … What does that look like in terms of the proposal and the pricing, when A, you don’t really know what the continuous improvement’s gonna be, and B, it’s gonna be ongoing in theory for all time?

Luke S.: That’s a really great question, because that’s a big shift from the agency’s perspective that you have to make is how you think about the pricing and packaging of your web-design services. Now, the beauty is, is that again, like I said earlier, I didn’t invent anything new, I pulled a ton of different ideas and put them together into a coherent playbook for us to execute on. And there’s already been a system built that helps address this, which is agile. So, we run on the backbone of Growth-Driven Design is scrum process, agile scrum process.

And the way that scrum process works is you will have a backlog, we call it a wish list. But a wish list, and we work on a point-based system. So, all of those items on your wish list get re-prioritized every single month to figure out what is the most impactful thing that we can do at this given moment to get to the client’s goals. And then the team associates a point total based off of the amount of effort that that will take to execute on.

Now, the point totals ultimately get converted into a dollar amount. So, we’re able to figure out, u