Web development seems to be a constant conundrum for most agency owners. It’s hard to hire and it’s even tougher to make money on web projects these days. On top of the profitability issue, there’s the scope creep and timeline challenges. Many agencies have actually gotten out of the web dev side of the business.

But is that the right choice?

My podcast guest Luke Summerfield would say no. He’s got a different way of looking at building out websites and other digital assets. He calls it Growth-Driven Design, a smarter approach to web design. It’s a methodology that puts a whole new perspective on web dev both for your shop and your clients. Rather than a one and done product as most agencies view websites, Luke and his team take an iterative approach to making their websites an ongoing project with stages and continuous improvement.

Join Luke and I as he walks you through this new way of selling and creating websites that deliver for both your clients and your agency.

  • Growth-driven design: what this “smarter way to do web design” is all about
  • Why the platform you use for your website doesn’t matter with growth-driven design
  • How growth-driven design was born out of the pain both agencies and clients felt around web development and why this system is so much better than previous ways of doing web dev
  • Step 1: getting an empathetic understanding of your client’s audience’s world
  • Step 2: building a “launch pad” website — something that looks and performs better than what the client already has but is not the final product
  • Step 3: continually improving websites
  • How to sell and price growth-driven design to clients
  • Why you should always sell at least 15 hours a month of growth-driven design and why you need at least a six month engagement from a client
  • The stats that prove that growth-driven design gets more leads than traditional design
  • Why growth-driven design still works great when you outsource the coding piece of web design
  • All the assets Luke has on his website

Luke Summerfield wakes up each morning excited to discover, experience, and share moments of inspirations. He does this at HubSpot, advising startups, writing, and speaking.

He founded the Growth-Driven Design movement which is transforming the world of web design. In the first twelve months, they grew from 0 -> 940 agencies in 50 countries offering GDD services to clients. Previous to HubSpot, Luke helped grow a digital marketing agency until it was acquired in 2014.

Outside of work, he trains Mixed Martial Arts / Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and rough houses with his pug puppy, Mac.

To listen – you can visit the Build A Better Agency site (https://agencymanagementinstitute.com/luke-summerfield/) and grab either the iTunes or Stitcher files or just listen to it from the web.

If you’d rather just read the conversation, the transcript is below:

Table of Contents (Jump Straight to It!)

  1. Defining Growth-Driven Design
  2. How Luke Moved into Leading an Internal Company at HubSpot
  3. Step #1: Getting an Empathetic Understanding of Your Client’s Audience’s World
  4. Step #2: Building a “Launch Pad” Website
  5. How Luke Coaches Agencies to Sell Their Web Development Services
  6. How Growth-Driven Design’s Pricing is Structured
  7. How Long it Typically Takes to Implement this Process
  8. What Agencies Might Need to Tweak with Growth-Driven Design
  9. Some of the Challenges when Implementing the Growth-Driven Design Process

If you’re going to take the risk of running an agency, shouldn’t you get the benefits too? Welcome to Agency Management Institute’s Build a Better Agency Podcast, presented by HubSpot.

We’ll show you how to build an agency that can scale and grow with better clients, invested employees, and best of all, more money to the bottom line. Bringing his 25-plus years of experience as both an agency owner and agency consultant to you, please welcome your host, Drew McLellan.

Drew McLellan: Hey everybody, Drew McLellan here with another episode of Build a Better Agency. Thanks for coming back or thanks for joining us for the first time, if this is your first episode. If this is your first episode, you picked a good one. We are gonna talk about a topic that many agency owners and leaders scratch their head around. And that’s the whole idea of actually making money with web dev.

And so, today my guest has quite a depth of expertise in this category, in this area. And so, I’m gonna pick his brain as best I can to get as much thought-provoking content, and ideas, and new ways for you to think about things as I can in the hour that we have.

So, let me tell you a little bit about him. So, Luke Summerfield works at HubSpot, he’s been there a few years, he actually leads an internal startup at HubSpot, called Growth-Driven Design. And that startup is focused on really transforming the way that web design and the web-design industry builds and optimizes websites.

So, they are built on the model that you would expect. Very much like a lean startup and with a lot of experimentation. But they have grown to serving over 940 agencies in the first 12 months of service. And those agencies are in 50 countries that are now offering Growth-Driven Design to their clients.

Prior to joining HubSpot, Luke was with a digital marketing agency, and it was acquired in 2014, and so then he moved over to HubSpot. So, Luke, welcome to the podcast.

Luke S.: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Defining Growth-Driven Design

Drew McLellan: So, let’s start right off, because people, I’m sure, are going, “Okay, what is Growth-Driven Design?” So, let’s start just right off the bat by defining that for folks.

Luke S.: Yeah, Growth-Driven Design is essentially a smarter approach to web design. And I’ll get into the … I think a lot of it is, we’ll get into the story of where it came from and probably the story will sound pretty similar to a lot of you that are listening today. All of you are my people. My agency folks are my people.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: So, I’m glad to be on here. So, we’ll talk about the story but essentially what Growth-Driven Design is, is a smarter approach to web design that minimizes all of the risks, all of the headaches, all of the frustrations, not only for your clients but also for you as an agency owner.

It is a smarter approach to web design that continuously improves using data and experimentation to inform how to improve the site over time. And it’s a smarter approach to web design that informs other parts of the business. So as you’re learning about your users, as you’re collecting that data and making decisions on how to improve the website, how does that impact what you’re doing on the sales side of things when you’re helping their sales teams? How is that helping impacting what’s going on with the marketing? And vice versa.

As their product team, as their customer service team, as you’re learning on the marketing team. How do those other things that you’re learning help impact what you build on the website?

Drew McLellan: Okay. And so, is this tool agnostic? Does it matter what I’m building the website in?

Luke S.: It is tool agnostic. So, it’s just a methodology and a process. And for many of you, it’s probably nothing, you know you’re probably doing bits and pieces of this. I invented nothing new, I just pulled a lot of different ideas from the startup world. How startups kinda scale and grow, and where they focus. I pulled a bunch of ideas from the conversion-rate optimization, and UX, user-experience world.

And I pulled some ideas from what our internal product-growth teams are doing. So, what we’re doing to try and build our software. And what a lot of the product-growth teams in Silicon Valley are doing.

And really pulled all those ideas together into something that allows you to be able to execute with your team, but is also in a very packaged way, to easily educate and sell to prospects. And easily execute on the services side. So, you know, again, it’s tool agnostic, it’s just a process, just a methodology. And again, you may already be doing bits and pieces. So, hopefully something that you can easily jump into.

How Luke Moved into Leading an Internal Company at HubSpot

Drew McLellan: So, you were at HubSpot, and you were doing sort of a more mainstream job. How did you move into leading an internal company inside the company?

Luke S.: It started as … I would say I actually started in a non-traditional role, because I actually didn’t have a role. When, previous to HubSpot as you mentioned, I was working for an agency and happy to chat about that. That’s where the original idea of Growth-Driven Design came in. And when I got hired by HubSpot, they essentially hired me without a position. And just said, “We know you’ll find some way to provide value and help, uh, our agencies grow.” I said, “Okay, cool.”

And that’s pretty cool, but that also is a little bit daunting.

Drew McLellan: Little bit of pressure. Right.

Luke S.: No defined guidelines or roles. It was just, “Figure it out.” And so, they gave me two company-wide metrics that I was focused on trying to improve. And then that was about it. They said, “Go figure it out.” And so, I thought back to my agency days and the things that we struggled with as an agency. And some of the problems that we were trying to solve. And one of those problems, you know, I tried maybe 10 different experiments.

And the one experiment at HubSpot that I tried with agencies that really started building traction quickly was this idea of Growth-Driven Design. And that really spoke to … Really what it was, was trying to solve the things that many of you listening are probably experiencing, unprofitable web projects that are going over budget, getting delivered late.

Drew McLellan: Right. Out of scope.

Luke S.: Out of scope. Right. Scope creep never happens. Right?

Drew McLellan: No.

Luke S.: That’s everyone. Every single project. So, to give you a little background on the agency, when I worked there, we were a three-person dev shop, specifically, when we started it was Joomla 1.0, so for all you … Anyone in the Joomla world, you can kind of remember back to Joomla-1.0 days. And we grew, we became HubSpot partners in over about three and a half years we were gold partners with them on the marketing side.

But, that was still only 25 percent of our revenue. 75 percent of our revenue was coming from web design. And so, what ended up happening is we were growing 40 percent revenue year-over-year. And Gabe, the owner, was really smart and he said basically, “If we keep growing like this, the train’s gonna come off the tracks.”

Drew McLellan: Yeah, right.

Luke S.: We’re gonna really start to implode. Growing from three to 15 in three years, and just the revenue side of things as well. And so we took a step back and what my role at that point was during that year is we said, “We want, only want to grow 10 percent, we want to fire our worst clients. And we want to really be picky on who we bring on. And then we really want to focus on our processes and our operations to make sure that we can become profitable and really build this machine for scaling past 15.”

And when we looked at that, one of the biggest problems we ran into was the 75 percent, which was our web design revenue. It was almost inevitably they always, again, went out of scope, the scope creep happened, went out of scope, which that time has to come from somewhere.

So, in some cases we could go back to clients and say, “Look, you know, we, we, this is a whole new feature. Something we didn’t talk about. We’re happy to build it, but we have to, you know, expand the size of the engagement and do an addendum onto the contract.”

But, most of the time, it creeps up on you. It’s like a … You know, scope creep, they call it that for a reason, but you’ll have like 20 minutes here, an hour extra there. You know, 35 minutes here. Just little things that over the course of a six-month long project, really add up to a good chunk of time, and inevitably your company, your agency usually eats that time. And that means that your profit margins tank.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: And essentially … You know, we had projects that we worked on for four months and we looked back and we actually lost money. We paid to work for the last four months with our developers. And, so that was-

Drew McLellan: That’s a painful thing is to realize you’re actually paying for the privilege of doing the work. Yep.

Luke S.: Well, I mean, believe it or not, we’re all businesses.

Drew McLellan: Yep.

Luke S.: As passionate as we are and as much as we love doing this stuff. And we probably would do it for free. We are businesses and we have teams that we have to pay.

Drew McLellan: Yeah, not a great plan. Yep.

Luke S.: We all have goals that we’re trying to get to in terms of where we’re growing our businesses. So, that was a big blow. And so, really what we looked at is, you know, the other thing with the web design clients, if they were not in a marketing engagement with us, we were essentially building the website and having a pretty tight knit relationship with them over three to six months. And then we would basically say, “All right, we’ll talk to you later.” And we really wouldn’t talk to them until they needed another website a year and a half to two years later.

And we knew that we were not only leaving … We were not doing the best for getting our clients to their goals by just kinda leaving them hanging. But also, we were leaving money on the table.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: And so, when we looked at the email-marketing side of our business, which was a retainer-based business model, where you signed up for 12 months, or six months, and you had a specific amount each month. And we just continued working with you and growing over time. That type of a, not only, business model but the value that our clients were able to get from that model of continuously improving, continuously working, continuously bringing value made a lot more sense.

And then we had like this other business over on the other side of the web development that was bits and pieces.

So, way back when, recognizing this problem when we took that year of slow growth, but really firming up the business, we looked at launching a service called Continuous Web Improvement. And it was not the sexiest name, but really the idea was we’re gonna launch a site, and then we’re gonna improve off of it after that.

And that was the seed that was eventually brought into with Growth-Driven Design. And so, we ended up getting acquired shortly after that, and because of that the idea fizzled out a bit. And when I came to HubSpot, I thought … You know, tasked with how do I help our agencies grow? How do we help our different businesses grow? I thought back to the challenges that I ran into and what we were trying to solve for ourselves and it really was a challenge that we’re all struggling with.

Drew McLellan: Yep.

Luke S.: It wasn’t just our agency.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: It’s an industry-wide problem. And on the flip side, your clients, whether they tell you or not, they hate doing website redesigns. It is a pain in the butt.

Drew McLellan: Well, they want to do it once and then be done forever. Yeah.

Luke S.: And because the process is so painful.

Drew McLellan: Right. Right.

Luke S.: You know, and so all of that really seeded what has now evolved into Growth-Driven Design as it sits today, which, as you mentioned, now a year after launching it officially with our certification we have, we now have over 1,000 agencies in 50 countries, servicing their clients with Growth-Driven Design.

And the growth of that really just ties back to the pain that we’re all really feeling, and then the success stories that a lot of them are experiencing.

Step #1: Getting an Empathetic Understanding of Your Client’s Audience’s World

Drew McLellan: So, I know that when I spend some time on growthdrivendesign.com that there are some phases, or steps that are the cornerstones of this process. Walk us through those and help us understand how they’re different from what everybody else is doing as they piecemeal together websites.

Luke S.: Sure. The methodology has essentially three steps. And the first step is on a high level the first step is probably what you’re doing today. Or a lot of you are doing today, which is the strategy step. And really, what the goal of the strategy step is, is to get an empathetic understanding of the world of your client’s audience. Right?

So, who are their personas? Or who are the people that they’re serving? And to get a view into their world. And now, what that’s going to allow us to do … So, that really leans into a lot of the UX and UX-research side of things. So that you can gain that really deep understanding. We use things like the goal setting of what kind of goal is the client trying to achieve? And where does the website fit in? What does the website act as a lever to try and achieve that goal?

And we also look outside of just generating leads. You know, a lot of times as a marketing agency, that’s what they’re hiring us for.

Drew McLellan: Sure.

Luke S.: But in reality, they’re hiring us to grow their business. And in some cases that may be you working on their website to help them with recruitment efforts. It may be trying for them to decrease support tickets. So you’re building a knowledge or a support section onto their website.

It could be building sales-enablement materials into the site. There’s a lot of different aspects the website touches on in the business, other than just generating leads. So, we really need to flesh some of that out in the goals setting.

And then we go into what we call the jobs-to-be-done framework. That’s a framework that’s being adopted by many of the product teams in Silicon Valley now. And that allows you to figure out what kind of job that is the client’s audience hiring your client for. What kind of progress are they trying to make in their life? And then, how do we position and talk about some of the things that are involved in the jobs-to-be-done framework.

We could probably talk all day just about that.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: So, we go through jobs to be done, we go through persona development once we have that. Many of you are probably familiar with personas. Then we get into journey mapping and so on and so forth. We really want to get a detailed look at the person’s world, because what we want to do is, we want to build a website that is woven into that story that person is on, that journey that person is on. Whereas traditionally, we build kind of a site in its own bubble, and then we throw it at them, and hopefully it sticks at certain points during that journey.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: Versus starting with the journey and building around that. Now all of that probably sounds pretty familiar to you. Any of you that are doing a bit more UX, and a bit more user-experience research.

Now, where it gets a bit different is at the end of the strategy, the goal is to come out with what we call a wish list. And a wish list is 75 to 200 or more ideas of all of the most impactful, most important things that you can build to help provide value to that end audience, we call them the end users. And to, at the same time, allow the business to capture a bit of that value in the sense of lead generation. Or if it’s an e-commerce store. You know, a sale, whatever that is.

Drew McLellan: So, give us some examples of what might show up on a wish list.

Luke S.: Sure, it could be from a very high level. You know, sections that need to be on the site. It could be go all the way down to very granular stuff like certain specific integrations that need to happen on the backend. It could be strategic partnerships with other websites. There’s a very big range from small to high. And that list is gonna come from the research that you do when you’re looking at your users and trying to basically problem solve the problems they’re running into. And then turn that into things you can build on the site to solve those problems.

It’s also gonna depend on what they have on their existing site. Right?

Drew McLellan: Sure.

Luke S.: So they’re gonna have things that are on their existing site that are providing value, that are helpful. And you have to figure out how do we adapt and migrate, or weave that into the new site?

And then, of course the business itself probably has goals related to, again, recruiting or HR, or it could be the services team that’s trying to decrease support tickets. Whatever those goals are that are business needs.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: And what you need to do as a team is you need to strategically organize that wish list based off of the impact that those things have on the goals that you’re trying to achieve, and the value or problems that the end users are trying to solve.

So, again, it could be very high, it could be, “We need this whole section.” Could be very, very granular where it’s like on the pricing page, we need to have a chat feature, we need to have some type of way to solve this common question that we always hear, that our sales reps are always, always hearing, but we want to address that ahead of time before they talk to a sales rep on the pricing page.

Drew McLellan: Okay. And so, again I’m guessing the listeners are going, “Yep, yep, yep.” In some fashion or form, and often not the same way, both, more than once.

Luke S.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Drew McLellan: We do that. Right?

Luke S.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Step #2: Building a “Launch Pad” Website

Drew McLellan: So, what does phase two contain?

Luke S.: So phase two is essentially building what we call a launchpad website, and a launchpad website is a site that looks better than what they have today. It performs better than what they have today. But it’s not the final product. It is not perfect.

Drew McLellan: When I was looking at the site, that I love the sentence, “Quickly build a website.” And I thought, “Okay, when, how often does that happen?” Right?

Luke S.: Well, in traditional, it doesn’t.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: Because here’s the problem with traditional. The problem with traditional design is that the client feels like every single thing needs to be absolutely perfect. All the features they ever want need to be in there, all the pages from other folks, all the content needs to be done 100 percent perfect, because once it launches, they’re not gonna touch it again.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: That’s just their mentality with traditional.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: And so, that’s been a little bit of an educational process that happens in the sales process, that you have to get them to understand that, look, that’s not possible. And there’s no such thing as perfect. And if we chase perfect, you’re gonna run into all the frustration, you’re gonna run into all the scope creep. You’re gonna run into all these problems that you always hit, because we’re trying to chase that perfect.

Drew McLellan: And even if you get perfect today, by tomorrow some piece of it will be obsolete.

Luke S.: Exactly.

Drew McLellan: Yeah.

Luke S.: Exactly. You know, and what we consider complete today, they’re always going to be changing, adding, not only new things, but also you can always optimize the existing things.

And so, that’s what the launchpad website is all about. And there’s multiple ways you can go about building a launchpad website. I think the misconception that everyone jumps to right away is to just cut down all their content, build kind of a small, incomplete site.

And that might work for some clients. There may be a startup, or there may be someone who already has a small site that they can start with something small. But of course, you have enterprise-level clients that have large site, you may not be able to go that route.

And so, there’s a number of different routes and a number of different ways that you can … Essentially the goal is to launch something that looks and performs better, and you launch it quicker than if you did traditional design. And the reason being is that when we go about building a website, we try to collect as much data as we can. But really, we’re operating within a bubble. The things that we’re building are assumptions of what we think work well. And those assumptions are based off of industry best practices, maybe what worked well in the past, what design trends are. There’s still assumptions.

Just because it worked with one client, does not mean it’s gonna work well for that client. Even if they’re in the same industry, they could have different audiences.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: And so what we need to do is get out of that bubble, and let the users start interacting with the site, because once we have that data, once we have that behavioral data, that behavioral data will help guide us in what and how we need to build the site.

So, there’s a slight shift in the mentality from a designer-driven process. Meaning the designer dictates how and what we build, and how to make it look pretty, and all of that. To the user tells us. Now, they don’t actually quote-unquote call us up and tell us. But they’re telling us through their behavior and the actions that they’re doing.

And so, that’s where … The only way for us to do that, to get that data is to get something out there, and that’s why we need to try and launch something that, again, looks better, performs better, but it’s not perfect and we can always build, and we will build, once we move into the continuous improvement stage.

How Luke Coaches Agencies to Sell Their Web Development Services

Drew McLellan: So, this obviously requires a very different sales mentality, because most agencies are used to selling a website as a finished thing with maybe an SEO package on the backend, or something else. But, it’s certainly not a “We will build it and then we will keep tweaking it forever and ever and ever, and we will never be done.”

So, talk us through the sales conversation, because I’m sure as you are working with agencies and helping them, not only learn the methodology, but figure out how to sell this and stay profitable, you’re coaching them on how to talk about web dev in a different way. So, what does that look like?

Luke S.: Yeah, you’re exactly right. It’s kinda funny, this is very much like where inbound marketing was eight years ago. When I was at the agency, we had clients that came to us and they said, “Well, we need SEO.” Said, “Okay, well why do you need SEO?” And we’d boil it down, and basically it came down to they needed leads for their business.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: And so, we had to educate them and say, “Look. Uh, if you want leads, SEO is an important part, but that’s only one piece of the bigger puzzle. You really need a complete system that’s gonna help you get to your goals, and that system is called inbound marketing.”

And so, there was this whole education that needed to happen in the sales process back six, eight years ago, with inbound marketing, which now we’re kind of in like a little bit spoiled period where a lot of times they’ll come to you wanting inbound marketing.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: They’ll already know what it is, they’re already familiar with it. They said, “We need inbound marketing.” And so, with Growth-Driven Design, we’re in that period eight years ago, where we need to do a lot of that education and get the lightbulb to go off in our prospects’ heads, because this is a new concept, just like inbound marketing was a number of years ago.

And so, the first thing that you need to do is really anchor how important their website is to their business. You know, ask them a question like, “What would happen to your business if your website disappeared tomorrow? How, how impactful would that impact the business?” Really get them to understand how important the website is. And how it’s an investment in the growth of their business for the future.

And once they understand that, that’s kinda step one is them putting value on investing in their website. Then step two is to start talking about how often, now that we’ve established how important your website is and it’s your number one marketing asset, your number one salesperson working 24 hours a day, seven days a week. How often do you make impactful improvements on your website?

And what we find is that most people don’t. Like we talked about earlier. They build it and then they move on to other …

Drew McLellan: Yeah. Yeah. They might update some content or a blog or whatever, but other than that it pretty much stays the same.

Luke S.: Impactful improvements.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: Things that are gonna drive disproportionate outcome to the results, you know, to the goals you’re trying to achieve. And it’s not very often. And so, the analogy, what I recommend with a lot of agencies is to find an analogy that works really well for your industry.

So, let me give you an example. One comes from Sean Fitzgerald from ThomasNet, they’re one of our diamond partners at HubSpot. And the analogy, they work exclusively in the manufacturing space, and so what he’ll do in the prospecting call is he’ll use an analogy and say, “You know, hey, um, what’s the, what’s the goal of your assembly floor line?” They say, “Well, they want to produce widgets as fast as possible. The more efficient we are the more profit we make.” He says, “Okay cool. Have you ever bought a new machine for your assembly floor?”

He says, “Yeah, we’ve bought new machines.” And he said, “Oh, do they work out of the box? You know, do you put them on there and they work, work out of the box?”

He said, “No, you know, we buy a machine, it produces widgets but we have to put an engineer on there, and the engineer times it, tweaks it, adjusts it. And over the course of a period of a few months, it finally gets really synced up with our specific process.”

And he said, “That’s the exact same thing we have to do with your website. We’re gonna build a website that works, that produces leads, produces better than what you have today. But just like you have to put an engineer on that to tweak that machine and get it really humming, that’s what we’re gonna do with your website.”

And so, that analogy helps them kinda click to something that they’re already familiar with.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: You know, another analogy, if you are talking to sales folks, you could talk about hiring a new sales rep. You know, when you hire a new sales rep and you put them on the floor to work calls, do they produce at their peak performance? Do they close at their peak close rate? Do they generate enough qualified leads? And move them through efficiently? Of course not.

You have to coach them and evolve them over time. And again, it’s very similar and when you first put the website out there, if you think of it as your number one salesperson, you don’t just throw your sales rep on the front line and talk to them later, you have to coach them, just like you have to coach your website.

Drew McLellan: Yeah.

Luke S.: So, that analogy is really important in the sales process. You know, for them to understand this new concept.

How Growth-Driven Design’s Pricing is Structured

Drew McLellan: So, I want to get into two things. I want to talk a little bit about how pricing changes. And I also want to talk about how this impacts agencies that sell web dev, but they do it through partners. So, I want to dive into both of those, but first let’s take a quick break and then we’ll come right back.

All right, welcome back, I am here chatting with Luke Summerfield, who is working with Growth-Driven Design, which is a startup inside HubSpot all around changing the way we think about the world of web design.

So, before the break, I said I wanted to cover two things, one which is how is this structured from a pricing point of view? So, most agencies, even if they’re gonna build a phase or two into the process, you know, their clients want a fixed cost, or a ballpark price. So, in your methodology, how does … What does that look like in terms of the proposal and the pricing, when A, you don’t really know what the continuous improvement’s gonna be, and B, it’s gonna be ongoing in theory for all time?

Luke S.: That’s a really great question, because that’s a big shift from the agency’s perspective that you have to make is how you think about the pricing and packaging of your web-design services. Now, the beauty is, is that again, like I said earlier, I didn’t invent anything new, I pulled a ton of different ideas and put them together into a coherent playbook for us to execute on. And there’s already been a system built that helps address this, which is agile. So, we run on the backbone of Growth-Driven Design is scrum process, agile scrum process.

And the way that scrum process works is you will have a backlog, we call it a wish list. But a wish list, and we work on a point-based system. So, all of those items on your wish list get re-prioritized every single month to figure out what is the most impactful thing that we can do at this given moment to get to the client’s goals. And then the team associates a point total based off of the amount of effort that that will take to execute on.

Now, the point totals ultimately get converted into a dollar amount. So, we’re able to figure out, using a point-based pricing system to figure out, “Okay, if the client has let’s say 100 points a month, we basically prioritize the backlog based off of the most impactful thing. We start at the top and we go down until we run out of points for that particular month. And we draw a line and anything that’s below that line is in the next cycle.” Of course, we’re gonna re-prioritize, add anything in new, anything above that line is what we’re gonna execute on.

So, that gives us the flexibility to be able to adjust every single month, what are the most impactful things we build. But yet, give them some kind of guidance on how much effort or time, or effort that we’re gonna be putting in based off of point totals. Now, to answer your question about pricing, we did a State of Growth-Driven Design survey. We had 350 of our agencies fill out the survey and tell us a lot about the impact on the business, on their agency, and the impact on their clients.

So, if you’re looking for numbers, if you’re looking for stats and data, I would recommend getting that. We can probably put it in the show notes, but it’s just Growth-Driven Design-

Drew McLellan: Absolutely. Yep.

Luke S.: Yeah, just growthdrivendesign.com/report, or it’s just on the website. And what we found from those 350 agencies is that, they basically break them out into a fast, faster or fastest package. Probably similar to what some of you are doing. In the fast, they’re on average 33 hours a month. If you do $100 hourly rate, just think of a ballpark about $3,300 a month is that retainer.

Now, if you are using a point-based pricing, of course you have to figure out how many points does that purchase. And then you know, you can associate points to that. Now the faster is 83 hours a month, or let’s say $8,300 a month. And the fastest is 146 hours a month, or $14,600 a month. So of course that’s a wide range, it probably can be refined based off of the clients you work with. One bit of advice is I wouldn’t go any lower than 15 hours a month or $1,500 a month if your hourly rate’s $100. Once you get under 15, just the amount of time that’s with building the backlog, organizing it, running the experiments, doing the reporting, all of that. You’re really not gonna have enough time to invest on actually making impactful improvements on the site.

So, you’re gonna kinda see a puttering out of results. Kinda ups and downs. Just because of the lack of commitment. So, anything above $1,500 is required. I’d probably say $2,500 is a good starting point.

Drew McLellan: So, for your agencies that used to do web dev the old way, and have now evolved at this, are the first two phases … So, the strategy phase and the launchpad phase, are those actually less expensive than how they used to price, because they’re spreading the price out over a longer period of time? Or, are they still getting the same kind of revenue off the first two phases, they’re just getting ongoing revenue in addition?

Luke S.: That’s a good question. So, there’s two points. One point, I’d like to address, because this comes up kinda often, and it’s a subtle but very important point, and then I’ll explain the second point, which is more direct to your question.

The first point is that, what we used to do, so we ended up getting acquired by Square 2, which is HubSpot’s biggest partner. And while at Square 2, what we did at the time, they have since switched to the model that we were just talking about. But, at the time, we would basically build a full website upfront, in the first three months, do all the strategy, all the build out, all of that. But we would just roll it into the cost of the 12-month retainer.

So, it’s like a payment plan.

Drew McLellan: Got it.

Luke S.: It’s like we were doing all the upfront work, and then only charging maybe two or three grand a month over the 12 months, but all the upfront work was done.

Drew McLellan: Got it.

Luke S.: Now, that’s risk, because if your client churns in month four or five and they hadn’t paid out the full 12 months, you just ate that work. Right?

Drew McLellan: That never happens.

Luke S.: Yeah. In never, never land, maybe.

Drew McLellan: No way.

Luke S.: So the subtle difference is that in Growth-Driven Design, you are charging for the work you’re doing, you’re just finding what is the minimal amount of work that provides, the 20 percent of the work that provide 80 percent of the value, and charging for the work you’re actually doing. But then, knowing that you’re gonna add in additional time to continue growing off of that foundation strategy and launchpad, to grow off of that as you go.

So, you minimize that risk of eating that upfront work. So, the second question that’s a little bit more … Or the second answer that’s a little bit more towards your question, it’s gonna depend on the size of the site for the client. So, there’s three different routes you can go. The first route is if you’re working with a very small site. So let’s say it’s a law firm. Or it’s a dentist, or something like that. What I recommend is just setting a flat retainer for a six-month or a 12-month engagement, and saying, “Okay, it’s gonna be $2,500 a month, or $3,500 a month.” Whatever your pricing is, for the next six months, that includes strategy, launchpad, and x-amount of months of continuous improvement. Let’s say the first month is strategy, second month is launchpad, and then we’re gonna do four months of continuous improvement if it’s a six-month engagement. And then talk about renewing.

That works well for small sites. Now, if you have a medium-sized site. And I define medium, like, if you were to do it as a traditional website, you would charge $20,000 to $100,000. So, you’re in the 20 or 100,000 range site, that’s like in traditional design, that’s what I consider a medium-sized site.

Drew McLellan: Yep.

Luke S.: I would actually break off and do the strategy and the launchpad as initial cost. So, maybe that’s like $10,000, or 15 or 20, you know, $15,000. And then have $3,000 a month of continuous improvement after that.

And then the third way to do it. If you’re working with above $100,000 site, if you were doing traditional, a much larger site. I would do each phase separately. So, start with strategy. Charge that out. Have a flat fee for doing the strategy. Then, based off the strategy, that will provide a better scope for your launchpad site. Then after the launchpad site, quote.

The problem with breaking it into multiple steps like that, is then you almost essentially have mini-sales cycles that happen after each stage.

Drew McLellan: Right. Right. And then you’re at risk that the client looks at the launchpad and goes, “That’s good enough.” And they’re done.

Luke S.: Exactly.

Drew McLellan: Yeah.

Luke S.: And I’ve heard that. So, you need to balance that a bit, but you know, every agency finds a good fit based off of the types of clients they work with, and the size of clients they work with.

Honestly, if I started an agency tomorrow, I would do strategy and launchpad as one set cost, and then do continuous improvement as a separate set cost.

And you know, just get some level of commitment and make sure you’re doing the education upfront for them to buy into the continuous improvement so that they don’t flake out.

If you keep seeing clients flake out at that, there’s probably some education challenges in the initial sales process.

How Long it Typically Takes to Implement this Process

Drew McLellan: Yeah. So, in your experience, and I know you guys haven’t been doing this for a super long time. But in your experience as you’ve watched the agencies that are implementing this, is there sort of a minimum number of months that you have to do the continuous improvement phase for the client to see and feel the value as well as for the agency to see and feel the value? Is there sort of a, “Look, if you’re not gonna do this for six months, we shouldn’t do it at all.”? Is there a time frame around that?

Luke S.: What we found when we did the State of GDD survey, the average launch … So, doing the strategy and the launchpad website, those two together, on average with traditional design was 108 days. Then basically you set it and you forget it. Right?

With Growth-Driven Design, we found the average was 60 days.

Drew McLellan: Wow.

Luke S.: And then from there you optimize. Right? So, you’re almost cutting it in half. So, also from an agency’s perspective, that’s a quicker time to value. Like, if it’s gonna take 108 days to launch something and they’re not seeing any end product, or end result, or end leads for 108 days, versus 60, that’s not only bad for them, but it’s also bad for you as an agency not to show actual value.

You know, mock ups are nice, but they’re not leads.

Drew McLellan: Well, and I think clients get all swooped up about the website and the design and the wire frames. And then it feels like to them it takes forever for something to be live that they can go look at, or click on, and by then I think the honeymoon is over, and they’re already frustrated.

Luke S.: Yeah, exactly. So, imagine like them going around and turning around to their boss 60 days later. And I’ve seen them as low as 30 days, like law firms and small sites, you can get done in 30 days. But the average, across all the different sized sites was 60 days.

So, that’s the first two months. And then, from there, you know of course, usually what happens directly after the launchpad goes live was there is a number of sections. Or a number of things you wanted to build in the launchpad that were, like, nice to have, but not absolutely need to have for the launch.

Drew McLellan: Yeah.

Luke S.: So, there’s usually about a month, or one iteration cycle is just building net new features or net new sections, or things that just didn’t make the cut for the initial site.

And again, you can use data to inform that as you build those out, because now you have this live site out there. And so, that’s usually about a month. Then you can get into continuous improvement. Now, when you first start doing continuous improvement, you know, there’s gonna be some low-hanging fruit. So, usually your first few months, you get some really good wins. And then you kinda go through this period where the low-hanging fruit starts to, I guess, dry up for a lack of a better word. And you really gotta put some good thought and strategy and some experimentation and testing into getting those big improvements.

So, all of that being said, to answer your question. I recommend not doing anything less than six months. And usually six months is enough. Some we’re doing three months, but you have to set a very different expectation, and it’s an expectation less around the continuous improvement, and more about launching quickly. And getting something done quicker that’s more bite-sized. I’d recommend sticking six months or longer.

Now, I’ll tell you, what I find with most agencies, once they get the client in the door on a Growth-Driven Design retainer for six months, they get to see the process, they understand how the continuous improvement cycles work.

They get involved in creating, generating ideas for on the website. They’re building the wish list. They get really excited. And so, what we’ve seen is that it’s actually fairly easy to either, not only renew them, but also upsell them into bigger packages. Because think about it this way, you have this list. This wish list is gonna be your number one friend for renewing and upselling.

They have this list of all these amazing ideas. The gears are turning, they’re looking at the thing, the gears are turning in their head. They’re like, “I want to do it all.” And you’re like, “Well, we, we can do it all. But we’re gonna have to space it out over time, because your engagement, you know, it’s just limiting. And the size of it.”

So, you draw the line on what you can do each month, and they say, “Well, no, let’s move faster. I, we have really good ideas.” And so, it’s easy to say, “Well, we can move faster, we just have to talk about increasing the size of your engagement, um, into a bigger, bigger package.” Or, when it comes to renewal time, again, if they see all these amazing ideas that gets them super excited. They’re more likely to renew, because they want to see all those ideas come to life.

And so, having a good strategist that can really manage that wish list, and make sure that there’s really exciting and impactful ideas on there, is gonna help you, again, renew them, and continue the engagement going forward.

Drew McLellan: And again, in theory, every month they’re seeing an uptick in activity, or results.

Luke S.: Oh, of course.

Drew McLellan: So, they’re immediately every … They’re constantly seeing that the money they’re spending is paying off in measurable results. So, again, you’d think they’d be more inclined to go, “Okay, I’ll put more money in that pot, because every time I put a dollar in, I get five dollars out.”

Luke S.: Exactly.

Drew McLellan: Yeah.

Luke S.: And coming from the State of GDD, we have a slide in there. So anyone who’s listening to this, if you’re thinking about talking to prospects about this, go in there and pull … The entire State of GDD is basically a sales enablement pitch deck for you to use. And I have it in PowerPoint and Keynote format, that you can pull slides and use to pitch this methodology.

There’s a slide in there that we looked at from launch to three months, and then three months to six months. What was the impact on visitors, leads and revenue with clients that are doing traditional versus clients doing Growth-Driven Design?

And what we found was that at the six-month mark, Growth-Driven Design clients were getting 16.9 percent more leads than those that did traditional. And 11.2 percent more revenue from their website. And again, that goes to the continuous improvement part. Right?

It sounds like kind of a no-brainer. Well, if you’re continuously improving, you’re gonna get more leads, and you’re gonna get more revenue, but this is actual data to support that. And it also shows that at the six-month mark, the growth in visitors, leads, and revenue for traditional is essentially flat lining. From three to six months, there’s very small increase, because you’re not doing anything on the site anymore.

What Agencies Might Need to Tweak with Growth-Driven Design

Drew McLellan: Right. Right. So, how does this all work? So, as you know, a lot of agencies that are the size that AMI works with and HubSpot works with, a lot of them may not have web dev folks on staff. So, they either have a strategic partner or something like that. So, let’s assume that an agency is listening to this, and they outsource the coding and the web dev. So, they might do the layered Photoshop files and all of that, but at a certain point in time, they hand off the building portion.

So, how do they have to modify this, or what do they have to do to tweak it for this to work for them in terms of having to have a partner alongside them through the process?

Luke S.: Yeah, this is a common scenario. And it’s a scenario that I’m actively working on making an even better answer to, but let me give the answer to it today.

So, the beautiful thing about Growth-Driven Design is if you look at the process and we have a certification that goes through the entire process. Free certification, open to anyone, doesn’t have to be a HubSpot partner, can be any agency.

If you look at that, that’s my little plug.

Drew McLellan: Very nicely done.

Luke S.: If you look at the process, 90 percent of the work is not related to actual coding. It’s strategy, it’s UX research, it’s experimentation, it’s all of the things that any of you listening that running an agency probably have people that can execute on at some level. Or at least can develop the skills.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: Now coding, as you alluded to, is a much more specific thing and there’s agencies that just don’t want to get into hiring developers.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: So, my number one recommendation is to work with another agency that is Growth-Driven Design certified, because they’re gonna understand the process, they’re gonna understand the cycle of continuous improvement, working on an agile basis, they’ll speak the same language. And so, I think you’re going to get much better collaboration with someone who is on the same page as you.

The second thing I would recommend, the hangup a lot of times is just timing, because what will end up happening is if your team is doing the strategy, you’re figuring out what’s on the wish list. What are we gonna work on this month? Your team starts working on some of the copy and some of the things you can do, and then you ship that over to the dev in the other agency and they’re on a totally different schedule. And you end up having to wait two, three weeks for their devs to work on it.

Drew McLellan: Right. Right.

Luke S.: That can be pretty tricky. So, I would … When you get into a relationship like that, I would sync up on timeline, so that they know, “Okay, at this, the first week, or the first two weeks of the month is when I’m gonna get the wish list items set. Um, you know, have them kind of maybe a little more involved in understanding what those things are. So that they can then plan maybe the second week of the month, or the third week of the month, every month, just get in a regular rhythm, a regular cadence to start doing whatever work gets shipped over.”

We’ve also seen some agencies that are just totally transparent with clients. And they just say, “Hey, you know, we have a, a rockstar dev team that we work with, and they’re an outside dev team, and they’re going to be involved in this. And you’re gonna have, um, you know, they’ll, they’ll just know that that’s part of the deal, that there’s gonna be additional, um, time to work with an outside dev team.”

But, if you’re looking for … In order to solve this problem, or this challenge right now that I’ve heard a lot, I’ve built a directory. And it’s just growthdrivendesign.com/directory, and that will show you agencies that are Growth-Driven Design certified. And do outsourcing dev work with other agencies. It will tell you what is their minimum launchpad website size that they work with, you know, because of course, if you don’t want to work with someone who really needs …

You want to work with qualified agencies that are bringing you the right types of clients to work with.

Drew McLellan: Right. Right. Right.

Luke S.: And it’ll also tell you what their minimum continuous improvement engagement is. So, that’ll at least give you a long list … Maybe 20 or 30 different agencies in all different regions across the globe that you could partner with and talk to. I guess my last little tid-bit is I would always try to have at least two or more that you’re working with. You don’t want to put all your eggs in one basket. Where you’re only working with one client, or one outsource dev agency, and then all of a sudden they … You know, you never know what will happen. You know? All of a sudden, they decide not to outsource anymore. Or they decide to shift focus, and all of a sudden you’re out.

So, I would always work with at least two different agencies.

Some of the Challenges when Implementing the Growth-Driven Design Process

Drew McLellan: So, all of this sounds fascinating, and good, but I assume, because there are humans involved that some agencies have stumbled as they have taken this on. So, what are some of the hurdles that agencies should be mindful of and avoid or watch for, as they begin to think about and shift their actual process to a more Growth-Driven Design kinda process?

Luke S.: The biggest one is gonna start out in the sales process, and that’s because, like we said, this is very different for your clients, it’s a different mindset shift that we need to create. And the light bulb that we need to go off in the client, or in the prospect, and that as we talked about earlier, does require a bit of a different sales process. And so, I’ve seen a bit of stumbling, especially with the launchpad website.

Understanding what does that look like, and how big is that? Now, one of the things that I would recommend, there’s a really good talk that was done at our conference, at Inbound. And it was done by Media Junction, they’re a maybe 25-person shop out of St. Paul Minnesota. They actually volunteered to build the growthdrivendesign.com website. So, if you go on there, that’s our launchpad website, if you want an example of what a launchpad website looks like, we’re using … We eat our own dog food, we’re using our process on it.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: We just launched that maybe two weeks ago, three weeks ago.

And so, what they did was they were an early adopter. They started right out of the gate, and they jumped headfirst in and made a lot of mistakes. And so, what their talk was at Inbound was, “Here’s the mistakes we made, and here’s what we did in the last year to evolve it.” And a lot of it was around the sales process.

So, if you go to YouTube, and you just search Inbound Growth-Driven Design, you’ll see the talk that Media Junction did. Now, what they found that was very helpful, here’s a pro tip, have your sales team sit in. They do monthly retrospectives with their services team to talk about what went well and what didn’t go so well with different clients.

And they have their sales team sit in on those retrospectives so that they get an understanding of … You know like typically, you know, the sales team, like, sells it, they wash their hands of it, and it goes off into the darkness to get actually done.

Now, their sales rep, Tyler, sat in on these. Or, one of their sales reps, Tyler, sat in on one of these. And learned a ton about the challenges, and the problems, and the headaches the services team was running into, because he did not do the proper expectation setting, he did not ask the proper questions, get the proper buy-in in the early on.

So, I mean, I guess my first tip is to really think … Know that the sale process is gonna take a little longer. It’s gonna be a little bit more education. Leverage the State of Growth-Driven Design pitch decks that we have on the site. We also have an entire class in the certification, with retainer-quoting tools, proposal examples from other agencies. Leverage all that stuff, but just know it’s gonna take a little bit longer than maybe what you’re used to.

And then two, invest the time in having your sales team sit in the retros to kinda flesh out the bugs that you have, that they’re seeing later down the chain, once they start actually working with these clients.

Drew McLellan: Okay. What other stumbling blocks have you seen? Other than the sales process, which I agree, sounds like it would take both some education and some practice before you get it down smooth.

Luke S.: I think the other challenge that happens a lot is around just positioning the launchpad website and getting in sync with what the expectations of the prospect, or the client if you’ve signed them, the client has in their mind.

Meaning, you know what a launchpad website looks like, because you’ve seen examples, you’ve worked with other clients, so on and so forth. They, in the back of their head, they have an idea of … Even if they’re bought in and say, “Yeah, I want to build something quick, I want to get it out there. It’s gonna perform and look better.”

They have a vision in the back of their head of what they think it looks like. And so, I was talking to Mike Skeehan from Salted Stone, they’re a diamond partner out in San Diego. And we got to a question that we ask now, not only in the sales process, but if it’s not asked in the sales process, ask in the services, once you start doing the strategy. Tell us, like, “Hey, send us, uh, a few websites of what you envision your initial launchpad website looks like.”

You know, send us some of those sites. So that you can see how big, what the scope is, what the look, the feel. You know, that’s a common question to do in the strategy for look and feel. But, this is more about gauging what kind of vision do they have in the back of their minds, so that you can ideally in the sales process, you know, kinda wrangle that into a better price, or say, “Hey, this is great, but you realize this is gonna be a lot more work, and it’s gonna take a lot longer.”

So, that’s just kinda getting around there. And then also the positioning of the launchpad website. So, on growthdrivendesign.com the homepage, I’ve written that homepage copy almost like a script, that you can use, your sales and services team can use to position some of these things. Because what would happen is people would say, “Oh, well this is a minimum viable website, you know, it’s the minimum of what you need to provide value, uh, and, and capture leads.”

And then the client was like, “I don’t want a minimum viable website.”

Drew McLellan: Yeah, that doesn’t sound good at all. Right.

Luke S.: And it really isn’t, it really isn’t. And so, that’s where that specific positioning of it looks better, performs better, but it’s not perfect.

And so, anyway, I think the positioning of some of these things that you need to be upfront about some of the positioning, and talk about what are these things, because again this is all new to them.

Drew McLellan: Yeah.

Luke S.: And I see a lot of agencies stumble with that positioning part. So, use the website as a script. These are, like, what’s on here, and what you’re seeing that I’m building is not necessarily my words, it’s what I’ve learned. I was on the road six months out of the year last year, working at agencies’ offices, and doing workshops. I saw what works and doesn’t work. And I am boiling that down into what works, and I’m spoon feeding this to everyone else now in the form of these decks, and in the form of all this training.

Drew McLellan: Awesome. I suspect we have just scratched the surface, but hopefully this gives everybody a pretty good idea of at least the direction and the philosophy behind the direction, so that they can go to the website and check it out.

So, again, growthdrivendesign.com, people can sign up to do the free certification, which also gives them all of the tools, the decks, the proposal templates. All of that. Right?

Luke S.: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Yeah. Yeah. Everything’s in there. The first question I always get is like, “What, I need a template for the, the retainer. I need a proposal example. I need …” I’m like, “I got it all for you.” It’s a lot, it’s a big certification. It’s 13 hours plus all the tools and templates, but my goal was to put something together that allows you to hit the ground running, and get your program rocking and rolling.

Drew McLellan: And then how do people … So, when people take the certification, then how do they circle back around to either find other folks who’ve already done it, or to reach out to you and your team? How does that work in terms of support?

Luke S.: We make it really easy. You know, of course the certification is all the blueprint, but once you put the blueprint in, all millions of questions are gonna come up.

Drew McLellan: Right.

Luke S.: A lot of them that we talked about today. So, we created a Slack community. And so, when you sign up for the certification, you’ll get an invite for the Slack. And we have 1,500 folks on there, it’s very active. Some Slack communities you go in there and it’s like a ghost town. This one is super active, because it’s an interesting topic. A lot of people are passionate about it. I’m in there. So you can directly message me, and ask me questions.

Or you can ask all the people, and get all the different ideas from 1,500 agency folks on what they would recommend, and what worked well for them.

Drew McLellan: Fascinating. Luke, this has been awesome. Thank you very much for your time and for sort of driving this forward and bringing it to agencies. I can tell if you’ve got over 1,000 agencies in the mix, that obviously something’s going well.

Luke S.: Well, I mean again, it just comes down to solving a pain that we’re all experiencing. And you know, we’re not there, we’re in like inning one of a nine-inning game, it’s very early days. But, I think that’s what makes it exciting is that, you know, we all can come together and help shape what this looks like. And help kinda move the world of web design into a better place.

Drew McLellan: Awesome. If folks want to track you down, what’s the best way for them to reach you?

Luke S.: You can find me on LinkedIn, Luke Summerfield, it’s probably the best. You know, I’m on Twitter, I’m all that stuff. But, I would say the best thing is get in on LinkedIn and we can connect there.

Drew McLellan: Okay. Awesome. Thanks very much for your time. Appreciate it.

Luke S.: All right. Thank you.

Drew McLellan: Believe it or not, that wraps up another episode of Build a Better Agency. Man, the time goes by quick. Love sharing this content with you, and I love spending the time with you. So, thanks so much for listening and sticking all the way to the very end. And for those of you that did stick around to the end, I’ve got a special new twist for you.

So many of our podcast guests have books or other things that really expand upon the information and knowledge that they share with us during the podcast. And so, we’ve reached out to them and we’ve asked them if they would like to give away some of their books or whatever classes, whatever it may be.

And we’re gonna throw some AMI things in there as well, we’re gonna have some AMI swag. And we’re gonna actually give away some workshops. So, all you have to do to be in all of the drawings, you only have to do this one, is go to agencymanagementinstitute.com/podcastgiveaway, so again agencymanagementinstitute.com/podcastgiveaway. Give us your email address and your mailing address, and every week you will be eligible for whatever drawing we’re doing. And we’re gonna change it up every week, so we’re gonna have a lot of variety, and we will pop and email to you if you are the lucky winner.

You can also go back to that page and see who won last week, and what they won. So, you can see what you’re in the running for. So, if you have any questions about that, or anything agency related, you know you can reach me at [email protected], and I will talk to you next week. Thanks.

That’s all for this episode of AMI’s Build a Better Agency, brought to you by HubSpot. Be sure to visit agencymanagementinstitute.com to learn more about our workshops, online courses, and other ways we serve small to mid-size agencies.

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