Restructuring agency billing and pricing models based on scope value with Jonathan Stark

Announcer:

If you’re going to take the risk of running an agency, shouldn’t you get the benefits too? Welcome to Agency Management Institute’s Build a Better Agency podcast presented by White Label IQ. Tune in every week for insights on how small to mid-sized agencies are surviving and thriving in today’s market. We’ll show you how to make more money and keep more of what you make. We want to help you build an agency that is sustainable, scalable, and, if you want down the road, sellable. With 25 plus years of experience as both an agency owner and agency consultant, please welcome your host, Drew McLellan.

Drew McLellan:

Hey, everybody. Drew McLellan here with another episode of Build a Better Agency. Glad to have you with us. We are going to talk about billing and profitability today. I will tell you more about our guest in a second. I know that that is a topic that is near and dear to many of your hearts, so I think you’ll find our guest fascinating and thought provoking. So stay tuned for that in just a second.

In the meantime, I’ve been promising you I was going to tell you about some of the speakers that we have coming at the Summit. A woman that owns a company called ScaleTime, her name is Juliana Marulanda. Juliana is an expert in helping agencies scale and systemize their business and really automate a lot of what they do around the process of the work. She is helping AMI agencies save hours a week, not only for themselves but for their whole team so that they can be more productive, spend more time doing different things than where they have been inefficient before. So she is going to be one of the breakout speakers. She’s going to talk about some of the mistakes that agencies make when they really think about how to get the work done efficiently and effectively. I promise you, you’re going to have some golden nuggets to take away to go right back and apply to your agency. So absolutely, absolutely worth checking it out.

Again, if you don’t have your ticket, please run over to the Agency Management Institute website. Go to the very first navigation button on the top left, which is BABA Summit, Build a Better Agency Summit, click and register. The tickets and the room block for the hotel will sell out. So I really, really, really want you to be able to move ahead quickly and join us and enjoy all of the great speakers, some of the ones I’ve already told you about, Juliana. Many other folks are going to be there to teach us how to do the work that we do smarter, better, more profitably, and have more fun. So we really want you with us.

My guest today to talk about billing is a gentleman named Jonathan Stark. Jonathan comes at the idea of billing in a bit of a different way. We’ve talked about value billing before, we’ve talked about time and material billing, and Jonathan has a little bit of a different take on how service industries like ours should think about billing for their time and for the deliverables, whatever that may be, for their client. So I think you’re going to find him very interesting and thought provoking. Of course, I don’t want to waste any more time because I want to get as much information out of him as I can on our behalf. So let’s do it. Jonathan, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us.

Jonathan Stark:

Thanks for having me, Drew.

Drew McLellan:

Give everybody a little bit about your background, how you got to be where you are today and how you have come to form your thoughts about hourly billing, and then the way agencies make money.

Jonathan Stark:

In about 2005, I was managing a firm. At the time I think we had about 15 developers. It was a FileMaker development shop. We did some web stuff, but it was mostly FileMaker. We billed everybody out at a blended hourly rate of $150 an hour. I was the VP, and I reported to the owner. It was my job to manage the developers, and that included quite a bit of hours. I was always chasing them for hours. I was trying to come up with better tools to track hours. I was trying to come up with or building tools to funnel those hours into invoices, and then learning about how long it took to do certain things and then feeding that information back in. I did most of the estimates for new clients and trying to get a sense of how long it might take to do the thing that they were asking for so I could give them a reasonably accurate estimate.

Then it just gets into this cycle of then we’d send an invoice. We’d have a time sheet, if we were going over budget or it was taking longer than usual, we’d have a phone call where they would try and say, “Huh-uh, this took two hours last time, and it took four hours this time. Why don’t you knock off an hour?” We just talked about hours all the time.

It was in that context that I had an epiphany, which was that our best developer, who was getting paid quite a bit of money and could have worked really anywhere he wanted because he was well known, was probably not making us any money. He was fast, he didn’t need to do work two and three times, and his customers were very happy. Then we had a junior person who was basically a glorified intern. We paid him half as much salary-wise, he kept his customers just as happy, and it took him three times longer to do everything. So I couldn’t reconcile that. I had a real problem with that once I recognized that. I did a bunch of mental gymnastics and said, “Well, the really good developer, he helps train the other developers and teaches them how to get better.” Then I was like, “Well, wait a minute, that just means all of them are going to make less profit.”

Drew McLellan:

Less money, right, right.

Jonathan Stark:

So they’re all going to get faster, they’re all going to get better, and they’re all going to want a raise. It took me an embarrassingly long time to even start to question hourly billing as the source of this problem. But once I saw that, I couldn’t go back. I couldn’t unsee it. I was like, “I got to do something about this.”

Drew McLellan:

Well, I think even if agencies don’t bill by the hour, the way they bill the estimate is pretty much billed by the hour. They just don’t say it that way. They just roll it up into a lump sum.

Jonathan Stark:

That is not the way I would do it, but if you’re giving a fixed price… Well, maybe I don’t understand exactly what you said. Are you saying that most agencies come up with an estimate, and they say, “Ah, we think it’s going to be about $50,000, but it’s an estimate”?

Drew McLellan:

No, I think what they do is they say, “The client wants us to make a widget. It’s going to take the art director two hours. It’s going to take the copywriter four hours. It’s going to take the account person an hour.” So I add up all those hours, I figure out what our blended rate is, and then I tell the client, “It’s going to be a flat fee of whatever that dollar amount is,” which is still ultimately billing by the hour other than you now have lost the opportunity to go back and ask for more money if it took longer.

Jonathan Stark:

I’m a big fan of giving fixed rates, fixed prices, not fixed rates, fixed prices of some kind. The calculation model that you just described is usually time and materials or cost plus, it’s referred to as, and that scared me. What happened next in my story was that I left the firm to go try a new model. I didn’t want to risk 15 people’s mortgages on my crazy idea. I didn’t know how to make the transition at the time. I just knew I had to make some kind of change. I was not going to bill by the hour anymore. So rather than risk that firm’s future, I went solo and immediately started giving fixed prices. I thought at the time I was doing something called value-based pricing, but I really wasn’t. I thought I was, but it’s trickier than I expected. But I was giving fixed prices. I never ever once in my life have issued a change order of any kind, so I stuck to it. Come hell or high water, I stuck to it, and hell came up once or twice.

Drew McLellan:

I’m sure.

Jonathan Stark:

But even those times weren’t that bad. Back to your comment, I think a lot of people who give fixed prices do try that first, the sort of cost plus, and they come up with some more or less arbitrary percentage if it’s tack on for-

Drew McLellan:

Profit.

Jonathan Stark:

… administrative, profit.

Drew McLellan:

[inaudible 00:08:39], stuff we don’t know yet.

Jonathan Stark:

Yeah, there’s always surprises, right?

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Jonathan Stark:

The issue with that is that you’re limiting your profit possibilities, so you can’t have a huge home run. You can’t have something that’s massively profitable. It’s so frustrating because, if you instead based your prices on the value to the client, you have way more leeway to set a price that is extremely profitable and attractive to both you and the client. Then you come up with a scope after you set a few prices. You’re like, “Well, we could work with you in three different ways. Here are three possible prices that make sense given the value that we’re going to create for or the contribution we’re going to deliver for this outcome that you’re looking for. So here are three prices that are much smaller than that big number.”

Then you come up with a scope that would fit inside of those budgets, if you will. So if you scope lasts, you can have real profit for the first time, real meaningful profit for the first time. If you’re doing the sort of cost plus, you’re almost certainly not tacking 100% or 200% profit on top of the estimate. So you’re never going to have massive profits or really attractive profits.

But the real problem is, the real problem with approaching it that way is that you’re not having the value conversation at all. So when you meet with a client, you’re acting usually like an order taker, or maybe, maybe you’ve got a really good reputation and they’re curious about your opinion. But you’re not going to ask the questions about, “Should we even be doing this? Are we really the best firm for you? Do you really need to do this now? Wouldn’t it be better to do this at another time? Put it off, it’s going to be risky, and all of those things.” So at least in my world, more of a software-oriented world where we’re engineer mindset and we just can’t wait to build something. In the sales interview, we’re deconstructing all of the tables we’re going to have to create, and the fields and the tables and the layouts and the portals and all of the things we’re going to have to build. We’re getting all excited about that.

But we never have a conversation to find out if this is the right thing to build. The client’s not an expert at what you do, so why would you let them tell you how to do your job? It changes the whole conversation if you start by trying to talk them out of working with you by asking what I call the why questions, “Why this, why now, and why me?” Through that line of questioning, you separate good clients from bad clients because bad clients will hate this conversation, and good clients will tell you why they think investing money with you is going to be good for them. Then you can decide what level of confidence you have to engage with them if you really think you can move the needle they want moved and you agree that it’s a good idea, and you’re like, “I’m confident that I can do this,” then you’ve got a basis for creating a value priced proposal. The upside there can be significant. If you really know what you’re doing, the upside can be huge.

Drew McLellan:

Ron Baker, who exists sort of in our world, has talked about value pricing for a long time, and I’m sure you’re familiar with him. I’m curious how you approached having a conversation with a client that got them to articulate the value of the outcome of the work. “We’re going to do a new website for you. We’re going to do a new ad campaign or whatever.” How did you guide the client? Because a) the client may not know the answer to the question, may need some help getting to that answer, or b) it doesn’t really behoove them to make it sound like it’s going to be worth a lot of money to them if it’s going to turn around then and make it more expensive. So how did you conduct that conversation?

Jonathan Stark:

It’s those three categories of questions. You’re right. They almost never could just answer it. If you say, “Oh, how much is this worth?” it’d be impossible for them to give you an answer that even they believed. So it’s a process of uncovering. If you approach a sales interview in a genuine posture of service, you don’t need the work, you know you’ve got another sales interview in the next two days, you know you’ve got more leads coming in, you’re not desperate for the money, this is sort of a precondition for this, and you genuinely only want to work with clients that you believe you can hit a huge home run for, then you’re going to hit more home runs. You’re going to have better client relationships. You’re going to be able to say no to clients who are trying to keep the budget close to their vest or they’re like, “Why are you asking me these questions?” It’s like, “Look, it’s not going to be a good fit if you don’t even trust me at all.”

But if you come into that meeting, the three categories of questions are “Why this, why now, and why me?” The first one, why this? You politely and with some humor, ideally, question the decision more or less they’ve made that someone like you is what they need. So maybe they think they need, I don’t know, a custom-built internal workflow solution. That was my bread and butter back in the day. I’d come in there, and I would say something like, “Okay, I can do that. I’m happy to do that. I do it all the time. But have you considered just using Basecamp or have you considered using something else off the shelf or Zapier or plugging things together with no code solutions? Have you considered all of these other things?”

If they say, “No, that sounds interesting,” then the thing that I might propose, if I propose anything, is to just give them a roadmap for a relatively low fee, maybe 10 grand instead of 150 grand for a custom build, “I’ll just give you a roadmap, take Google Forms, plug it into Zapier or pump it into Basecamp, and you’ll be good to go.” That might be good enough. The thing that they were asking me for was going to be very risky, very expensive, and ultimately perhaps not even that satisfying. So that’s the why, this kind of question.

The why now question is probably self-explanatory. “What changed that caused you to call me or look for someone like me?” I want to hear that it’s urgent. I want to hear that Amazon is coming into their space and they need to gobble up as much market share as possible or they’re going to go out of business. Or they’ve got one chance to make this pivot. If they don’t do it, they’re going to lose their three biggest whale clients. I want to hear a highly urgent situation because that is going to increase the risk for them of screwing it up, and it’s going to increase-

Drew McLellan:

The value.

Jonathan Stark:

… the value of picking the safe option. So that’s why this. You’d ask questions like, “Why not put this off for six months? Why not study this for a while? Is this urgent? Is there some hard deadline, like it needs to be done before the next presidential election or the Olympics or something?” You find out if there’s real deadline pressure and what the real urgency where that’s coming from.

Then why me? Why would you hire someone expensive like me? You know I’m going to be the most expensive person you talk to. I wrote the book on this. If your marketing’s good, they’ll know that going in that you’re going to be expensive. But still ultimately, I want to hit such a home run. I had one client who said, “We’re going to build a statue of you outside of the building,” after I was done. I tell that story a lot of times in a sales interview. That’s the outcome I want. I them to be like, “This is the best money we ever spent. It was super expensive, but it was well worth it. We’d do it again.” That’s the testimonial I’m going for. So I want to talk them out of working with me if it’s going to be a big stretch for them budget-wise, if it’s going to put them at risk. I’m a very much like a do-no-harm kind of person.

There are plenty of clients out there who are in the situations that I’m describing and really do need to hire someone who’s best at the thing that they do. You don’t need a million clients to get these high profit jobs that only take a handful of hours and five, six figures in fees. That’s the way to answer your question. That’s how I guide them through this process of uncovering what it’s really worth to them. At the end, I’ve got everything I need to write a proposal, nice short outcomes-based proposal with three options in it. I just have this situation appraisal at the top that’s what they told me. “You’re in this situation, you’d rather be in a different situation, and these are the reasons you can’t hire anybody but me.”

Drew McLellan:

So in the proposal, if I’m understanding your sequence of events, it’s going to say, “Your world is broken. You need this widget. You have to have the widget now because of these outside and inside influences, and so I can fix your widget for $90,000, $60,000 or $40,000.”

Jonathan Stark:

I can improve their condition in one of three ways. A lot of times it would be like a do-it-yourself option, a done-with-you option, or done-for-you option. It depends on their scenario, but there are lots of different ways to slice this. Yes, there would generally be a significant delta between the three options. They would all be based on my guesstimate of what this is probably worth for a company in this situation, and I would scope each to be highly profitable. So at each price point, I would pick a scope that I would be fist-pumpingly happy to do for that price. Because I know there are going to be surprises, there always are, and I don’t want to hit the client with like, “Oh, I got to go back to the well for more money. Go tell your board it’s going to be twice as much as we thought.” I’ve never done that, and I would never do that to a client. I’d rather work for free for a year than do that, and I have.

Drew McLellan:

Again, though, you’re giving them the do it yourself, do it with you, do it for you, and you’re putting price points on it, but you haven’t really, if I understand it right, built out the scope of what you’re going to do yet. Is that correct? Because they have to agree on the price before you’ll decide what the actual scope is.

Jonathan Stark:

No. I would come up with a scope that I would do for that price and then propose that. It’s not always a DIY, done with you, and done for you. It’s not always that, but it is often that. Sometimes it’s different. Sometimes it’s a different nature of your involvement. The nature of your involvement is different in each one. I have a series of different ones, but it really depends. It could be all sorts of things. What it usually isn’t is option one is X, option two is more of X, and option three is even more of X. It’s always option one is X, option two is Y, option two is Z. So they’re different. It gets the buyer thinking about like, “Well, what would be the best way for us to engage with this person?”

A different way, a different concept could be… Depending on what you do, the first option could be something more like a half day strategy workshop with senior leadership. The second level could be something like adding in some sort of messaging with the sales team after the positioning and the messaging has been agreed to at the top, translating that throughout the rest of the organization, particularly the sales team, let’s say. Then the top level option, maybe you’d be getting involved with the sales team and coaching them on live calls for a period of three months or something. It’s all in the same area of expertise, but the nature of the engagement is completely different across the three options.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, makes sense. I want to talk a little bit about the pros and cons that you’ve discovered in this pricing model. But first we’re going to take a quick break, and then we’ll come back and chat about that.

Hey, sorry to interrupt, but I wanted to make sure that you are thinking about how to connect with your clients by figuring out what they love and maybe a few things that they’re not so crazy about with your agency. At AMI, one of the things we offer are client satisfaction surveys. We do both quantitative and qualitative, so an online survey, but also interviews with some of your key clients. Then we come back to you with trends, recommendations, what they love, what they don’t love, lots of insights around how you can create an even tighter relationship with your clients.

So if you have interest in that, you can go under How We Help tab on the AMI website, and the very bottom choice on How We Help tab is the Client Satisfaction Surveys. You can read more about it. Whether you have us do it or you do it yourself or you hire somebody else, it is really critical that you be talking to your clients about what they love and what they wish was different or better. So do not miss the opportunity to tighten your relationship with your client whether we help you or not. Let’s get back to the show.

We are back with Jonathan Stark. We’re talking about pricing and just thinking about the… It’s not really even just about pricing, but it’s, how do you engage with a prospect to figure out what they need and if and how you can help them? Then, how do you price it in a way that sets you up for, as he was saying, a home run of profitability? You’ve been doing this for a while. I’m sure there are both pros and cons to the methodology. What have you discovered?

Jonathan Stark:

First I’ll say, well, I’ve been doing it since 2006, and it’s been very successful the whole time, so that is hopefully encouraging to people. But it takes a while to figure it out because you think you’re doing it and then you realize, “Oh, I’m not really. I’m still doing cost plus. I’m just raising the prices.” You’re really not having the right conversation. You’ll get better at it over time. You need a lot of at bats. So if you only are doing a proposal every six months and you just have a whale model where you have two or three big clients, it’s going to be really hard to get the practice to get good at this.

Ideally, you would have a sales interview a couple times a month. You always have the same person doing it, hopefully the principal or whoever’s in charge of sales, and they practice this, practice this, practice this ideally with smaller-sized projects so if you do screw up, you won’t blow your foot off if you price too low, because you also have to get good at managing scope and keeping the client on point, focused on the desired outcome and not the stuff they want you to do.

I would say it takes a while to learn it, but it dramatically transforms the nature of the client relationship. They come right down. When you give fixed prices, they come right down. They’re not micromanaging you. If you start to approach the budget, it’s like, “Oh, we’re 90% done, 90% to go. The budget’s basically gone.” This is for people who do estimates, hourly estimates. The budget’s basically gone. You can see the project’s only half done. The client starts to turn into a monster, and they should because you’ve demonstrated that you either don’t know how to control scope or you don’t know how to do an estimate.

Imagine if somebody was going to work on your house and they said, “Ah, it’d probably be about 15 grand,” and they keep coming back for more and more and more, and it ends up being 45. You would not be happy, and you’d be going over everything with a fine tooth comb. So my argument is, one of the things that’s bad about hourly billing is it creates a horrible trust model, the incentives are not aligned, and it creates clients from hell. It seems like, “Oh, all clients are bad. It’s like, “No, you’re torturing them.”

So it takes practice, but it makes your life a lot easier right away. The profitability might not be instantaneous, but as you get better at it and attract clients for whom you can do work that it’s even higher and higher and higher value, the difference between what it’s worth to them and your cost floor gets bigger and bigger and bigger. So it becomes easier to close deals that are highly profitable for you because they’re also highly profitable for the client, and the money they give you is… They give a dollar, you give them back two. After six months or whatever, you start hitting home runs a lot, you attract better clients, better work, all of that. I’m not going to lie. It takes a good 18 months to get the hang of it, assuming that you’re doing reasonably frequent sales interviews.

Drew McLellan:

When you are learning how to do it, what were some of the mistakes you made early on that you had to overcome with practice and the learnings of the mistakes?

Jonathan Stark:

The big one was I kept on scoping in the meeting in my head. It took me at least a year to break that habit where they’re talking to me… Because that’s exactly what we did at the firm, and it was such an ingrained habit that it just takes a long time to break it. I kept realizing it almost like the layers of an onion. I’d shed a layer of the onion be like, “Oh, now I’ve got it.” It’d be, “Oh, I still don’t have it. I forgot to ask this or I forgot to ask that.” Because if you’re in the meeting and you’ve already decided what you’re going to do, then you are not listening. You’re certainly not looking for or you’re not asking questions that are going to reveal that they’re asking you to do the wrong thing.

Drew McLellan:

Or they’re not using the right words to describe what they are asking for and that you hear them saying apple and they’re really saying orange.

Jonathan Stark:

“We want a white paper.” It’s like, “How long?” That’s the wrong question. The right question is, “Why do you want a white paper? What do you think that’s going to do for you? If I charged you $100,000 for a white paper, what’s the business case for that?” If they can’t answer that question, then it’s not a good fit, if you want to charge $100,000 for a white paper.

But if they say something like, “Well, we are having a really hard time attracting developers or employees. We know that our CTO is not well known as a thought leader. We believe that we’ll be able to hire twice as many employees as our competitors more quickly if the CTO was a recognized thought leader in the space.” I would say, “How do you know your CTO’s not a thought leader?” “Well, she doesn’t get invited to speak at the big conferences.” It’s like, “So you think this white paper is going to get her invited to speak at this conference?” “Yeah, we actually do.” “All right. What would that do for you?”

So you got to find out why. What is the reason that they want to invest money with an expert like you when they could do a million other things, hire their cousin, Vinny, do it themselves, get an intern? There’s all these other things they could do that are cheaper. So you do need to uncover it, and it takes practice to stop thinking about scope and start thinking about making their business better.

Drew McLellan:

I think one of the ways sometimes agencies approach this problem of pricing is they productize their offerings. We provide services to clients. We sell intangible things that sometimes turn into a thing, but nonetheless. But by productizing it, by putting bumpers or boundaries around what it is, they feel like they can preset a price so they can escalate or get through the sales process faster. We say, “Look, it’s either $100,000, $70,000 or $60,000. Which one do you want?” like a Starbucks, “What size coffee do you want?” and then go from there. Did you play with that model?

Jonathan Stark:

That’s all I do now. I’m a big fan of productizing, especially if you have payroll to worry about. It really depends on your lead flow, and it depends on how good you are or want to be at a pretty hard sales conversation. It’s hard to get good at. In the meantime, it’s like, what do you do in the meantime? “Well, gee, Stark, it sounds great, but you’re telling me it’s going to take 18 months. What am I supposed to do in the meantime?” One of the things you can do is have productized services that are way easier to sell. They practically sell themselves if you’re attracting any kind of traffic because that’s the whole point. You sell them like a product.

You don’t expect to have a sales conversation in a Target when you’re going to buy a lamp. You just look at the lamp and you’re like, “Yes, might work.” So if you can productize something and publish that on your website, promote it in different places… It could be something like a roadmap, a strategic workshop, some kind of short-term training. There’s all sorts of things you could do. But it’s a fixed scope service that you sell for a published price. So by the time you get a lead for that thing, it’s practically sold. They might have a question or two that you can answer over email. You can make them more and more profitable over time by optimizing the costs to you, whatever costs, probably time. You can optimize that by taking out stuff that’s kind of low value and just maximizing the high value stuff and raising the price over time.

I tell people, “Every time you sell one of these, maybe not double the price, but increase the price dramatically every time you sell one.” Then you’ll find a point where the demand falls off and then back it up a notch. Now you’ve got this highly profitable thing that practically sells itself if you’re attracting the right kinds of people.

The downside of it is that you can leave money on the table. If someone who would have paid you five or 10 times more for a custom project gets what they need out of something that’s only $20,000 instead of $200,000, then maybe you left money on the table. That’s why I say “but.” If you don’t have a strong sales organization and you really don’t have an appetite for it and you want something easier, you can focus on the work more and less on the sales. I know agencies that crush it, just crush it doing web development and stuff like that. It’s just like, “It’s small, medium or large. How many pages you want?” They’re booked solid. They have a massively optimized procedure. It’s like a factory almost. Go ahead.

Drew McLellan:

Well, we talk about agencies that they’re either artisanal bakeries where somebody walks in and says, “Hey, I would like a carrot cake in the shape of SpongeBob.” They’re like, “Well, we’ve never done that before, but yeah, we’ll figure it out. We’ll do that for you.” Or the Wonder Bread factory, which is, “Look, we make bread. You can have wheat bread. You can have white bread. We have three sizes of loaves. Pick which one of those you want. But we don’t make croissants or muffins or rolls. We do bread. That’s what we do,” which I think lends itself to this idea of productizing.

Jonathan Stark:

Absolutely, and you can mix the two. Because some people, especially creatives, are kind of turned off by the idea of, “Ugh, I get bored doing the same thing every time.” You can do a hybrid model. There’s nothing mutually exclusive about these things. So a lot of times, if you do… Let’s say you’re used to doing projects. With most of your projects, it starts off with some kind of kick off with the leadership from the client. There’s a high-level discussion about goals and constraints and all of these things. Maybe sometimes you do this in the sales call, but maybe it’s in the kickoff, but it’s near the beginning.

You could carve that off as an initial engagement and just set a price that’s $15,000, all of it. “We don’t do any project work unless you do this strategic workshop first or this positioning workshop first, whatever it is.” It could be software architecture. “You do that first, and then you will have a deliverable at the end of that that is well worth the money you paid and is completely portable and you could take to someone much cheaper than me to do the implementation. But if you’d like, we’ll give you a value price proposal for that work.” I’ve interviewed people on my podcast that are just like, “This is all I do. I just do roadmap and implementation for the clients I want to work with.” I interviewed one guy who was like, “I have 100% close rate, but I don’t offer implementation to everybody I do a roadmap for because some of them I can tell I don’t want to work with.”

Drew McLellan:

Oh, that’s interesting. I’ll do the blueprint, but I don’t want to build the house.

Jonathan Stark:

100%, that’s the metaphor I love.

Drew McLellan:

I do think that for a lot of agencies, agencies are fighting to stay at the C-suite table. They don’t want to be a vendor. They want to be a thinking partner. I think the idea of, look, first we have to think about it, and we have to create a plan or a design a thing or have the answer, then we can implement that. Again, using that, we have to be the architect first. Can’t just build it. We’re just not going to buy a bunch of lumber and start hammering it together to make your house, I think is a great way for agencies to stay in a very different relationship with their clients in terms of being sort of an advisor. Then you’re right. Then you can decide you want to implement or maybe you don’t.

Jonathan Stark:

I get to a stage with my software consulting business where all I did for probably the last five or 10, seven years maybe was just advisory retainers where I didn’t touch a keyboard to write code. I was well known as the guy who wrote that iPhone book, and people were like, “We need you.” I said, “Well, I don’t build this stuff, but if you have a team, I’ll advise them, and it will maximize the odds that this is going to be a huge hit the first time through.” That was just a monthly $10,000 or $15,000 a month, multiple clients at the same time. My whole job was maintaining my expertise. I barely had to do anything with the clients. They’d ask me a question, and I’d give them an amazing answer that they believed because I was constantly keeping my saw sharp.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, a different model for sure.

Jonathan Stark:

Yeah, pure consulting.

Drew McLellan:

Well, I think a lot of agencies, as the implementation becomes more commoditized, and you can go on Fiverr and hire someone to do a logo, I’m not suggesting it’s the quality of logo that an agency would do, but nonetheless, a lot of clients can’t tell the difference, but they can tell the difference in price. So I think a lot of agencies are really asking themselves, what should be the balance of consulting and advising strategic work versus actual “get my hands dirty make a thing” work?

Jonathan Stark:

It’s a personal decision honestly. I found that the implementation work, ultimately, it’s very high ticket, so revenue-wise, it’s very high, much higher than the strategy work, but it’s low profit.

Drew McLellan:

Because it takes a lot of time.

Jonathan Stark:

Yeah, and it’s high risk for me because I’m giving fixed prices. So it just became distasteful to me after a while. I was like, “Well, I’ve got so many clients coming just for the strategy thing, just for the consulting. I’m going to just do that.” It wasn’t a cold turkey thing. I just let my old clients tail off over time and only brought in new clients for this one thing. If they asked for implementation, I’d introduce them to someone.

Drew McLellan:

Was that ever risky for you in terms of the handoff? When you are the subject matter expert and they’ve paid you for the strategy and you say, “Well, you should go to Joe’s Body Shop to do the work,” how did you vet or how did you know…? What kind of confidence did you need to have to pass them on to someone else to actually do the implementation?

Jonathan Stark:

Yeah, you’re right. It was a relationship thing, people I met, I trusted. We had the same worldview. Their business model aligned with my worldview, and they thought they would be a great fit for the client. I had a huge network at the time. I guess I still do, but back then I knew a million people. A lot of these shops, these implementation shops, they’re so busy with client work that they don’t do any marketing, so they’re not attracting enough leads to keep their bench busy. So if I brought them leads… I probably could have charged them a referral fee or whatever, but that’s not my business model. I would bring work to these people that would turn into a year or two years of whale client. So there is definitely some risk there.

There have been times when those relationships haven’t been 100% perfect. Things happen. But with me there as a facilitator, I could kind of translate between business and dev. The business would be like, “I think they’re gouging us.” Then I would talk to them, and I’d be like, “Nah, what they’re saying is actually true.” Or dev could be like, “The client’s being ridiculous.” I’d be like, “No, they’re not.” But I could translate into dev speak so I could help prevent a fracture from happening. I don’t want to make it sound like I spent a lot of time doing that. I certainly didn’t.

Drew McLellan:

I know one of the things you said early on was, when you had this epiphany and wanted to experiment with it, you left the firm you were at so you could kind of experiment with it on your own. If somebody owns an agency, that’s probably not an option for them. So how do they play with this? How do they experiment with this without risking their people’s mortgage or all the things that come with getting it wrong the first few times?

Jonathan Stark:

There’s three ways I think agencies can really experiment with fixed prices in general, if you’re not already doing fixed prices, if you already are doing fixed prices based on a cost plus model, then this is also-

Drew McLellan:

Which is where most agencies are today.

Jonathan Stark:

Oh, good, I’m glad to hear that. There’s three things, I’ll just run down them really quickly. Some kind of digital product, you can package your expertise as some kind of digital format that can create a virtually passive income while you sleep. That’s going to be a very small number starting out. It’s almost going to seem useless and meaningless. It works like an annuity where over time it will compound, and it can become a meaningful revenue stream over time. So you might want to plant that seed. It’s not for everyone, but it is one way. The middle way is productizing a service, so coming up with… If you’re currently doing fixed price implementations, probably the easiest, safest, most comfortable move would be create an upfront productized service that is at a high-level strategic architecture, high-level design positioning, something very high level where the client’s founder is going to be in the meetings.

Drew McLellan:

Again, it’s not me making a thing. It’s me leading some sort of strategic discussion, discovery, planning, something around that, right?

Jonathan Stark:

There’ll probably be some kind of deliverable that looks like recommendations.

Drew McLellan:

Like a report, but I’m not making a website or ad campaign or PPC ads.

Jonathan Stark:

It’s diagnostic. You’re going to come up with… You’re going to make sure that they’re digging the holes in the right place and not dig in the wrong place. You bring in your expertise to bear to help the client make sure that the project that they’re about to do isn’t a disaster and it’s maximally effective. Then if you want to continue doing implement… Well, everyone listening in this context is going to want to continue doing implementation because they’ll need it-

Drew McLellan:

Most probably.

Jonathan Stark:

… for cash flow, for cash flow reasons at least for a year. Then I would say start to experiment with the value pricing conversation, that why conversation on projects that look like they’re going to be kind of small but with clients who you really clicked with. So if you do a roadmap or whatever you call it, if you do a roadmap with someone who you really click with and they’ve got a small implementation, it’s not a giant bet-the-business project for them, you think you can do a really good job and there’s a clear success metric, the needle they want moved, then I would experiment with that conversation. Try it. You will find out you continue to scope in your head, and you’ll start to break that over time. So I would experiment with the value pricing concept not on bet-the-business projects, but on smaller projects so you can get the practice you need to really get good at answering those questions.

Then once you’re starting to get the feel for it, you can get much more creative on your proposals, and your proposals probably get a lot shorter. A lot of times I see people trying to justify a big price tag with a 40-page proposal. No one’s going to read that. It could be a one-pager with three options. Mine I use is more of a narrative format, and it’s usually about four or five pages for a $500,000 project. It does not need to be a book. It’s like, “Look, here’s where you are, here’s where you want to be, and here’s why you called me instead of someone else. Here are the three ways you can work together, and here are the prices. I’ll call you back on Friday to see which one you want or if you’re going to go in a different direction.” It doesn’t need to be rocket science, but it’s kind of a performance art, that sales interview. Like playing the guitar or standup comedy, you got to get your hours in. You got to practice it.

Drew McLellan:

That’s great advice. This has been a great conversation. I’m curious, how long do you think it took you, I think you said a year, but how long before you were like, “I got this. I’m good at this now, and I am not losing my shirt. I’m not missing something big. I am always profitable, and I’m usually wildly profitable”?

Jonathan Stark:

I would say, I want to point out that even the very first year, I made double what I made of my salary, and I wasn’t even doing it right. And on top of it, my relationship with the clients was transformed for the better. That’s a soloist, so it takes a little bit longer to turn the Queen Mary than a jet ski. But immediately it had morale benefits, lifestyle benefits. I would say that it took me 18 months to unlearn the habit of scoping in the sales meeting. You cannot scope in the sales meeting and do this correctly. I’d sort of laugh to myself. I would start catching myself, “Oh, yeah, you’re counting fields. You’re counting tables. You’re counting business objects. Stop it. Listen to the client.” You shouldn’t be talking very much, and please God, don’t pitch. Be like a doctor would be. If you run into a doctor’s office and say, “Doc, I need a triple bypass,” the doctor’s not going to say, “Great, jump up on the table.

Drew McLellan:

“I’ll schedule that for Wednesday.”

Jonathan Stark:

Take your shirt off. I’ll go get my scalpel.” No, they’re going to investigate a little bit. They’re going to make sure that’s what the person needs because they self-diagnose improperly all the time. They ask the wrong thing all the time. So if you can just pump the brakes a little bit, the bad clients will head for the hills, and the good clients will lean forward and be like, “Ooh, you’re the first person to ask us anything like that.” They’ll love it.

Drew McLellan:

It’s a great litmus test actually. This has been fascinating. One of the things I wanted to talk about, when you and I started talking about this conversation well before we hit the record button, you had talked about not wanting to bill by the hour, and I said, “Does that mean you don’t recommend tracking time sheets?” I’m sure someone’s going to hear what we’ve said and go, “Sweet. We don’t have to do time sheets anymore.” Again, I know you’re a solopreneur, so it’s a little different. When you look at it from an agency perspective, does this eliminate time sheets?

Jonathan Stark:

This is hotly debated in the value pricing community.

Drew McLellan:

No doubt.

Jonathan Stark:

I’m on the fence of I don’t care. Do what you want. If it makes you feel like you’ve… If you use it as a management tool or if you’re using it as an optimization tool, it does make me a little nervous that the mind shift isn’t there. I don’t think it’s useless. In fact, every January I do a free workshop where the first day of it, you track everything you do for 24 hours down to six minute intervals, everything, life, work, everything. Because if you want to improve stuff, you need to know what you’re doing. You want to know.

The risk to me is that someone would focus too much on that and not enough on measuring the things that really matter, like quality, customer satisfaction, magnitude of the transformation. So if you want to keep time sheets, be my guest, but you better be measuring those other things, too, because that’s what you’re really trying to improve. The hourly part, it’s mostly just trying to control your costs, which you can’t control your costs to a $10 million business. You need to actually be delivering value. So if you want to track both, fine. But if you’re just tracking hours, that makes me nervous.

Drew McLellan:

I think time tracking in agencies is not so much about billing. I think it’s more about, “My people are my assets. It’s good to know what they’re doing all day.” For example, the example you gave, which is the intern takes three times longer to do a task than somebody else. Is that training? Is that competency? Is that aptitude? How do I solve that problem? I think it’s more about, where are my assets being deployed throughout the day and how can I make that even better for both the clients and the agency and for the employee?

Jonathan Stark:

In theory. I’ve never seen it work like that. I’ve always seen the employees present it. It just feels very granular. Especially for people who do creative work, they’re like, “Well, I had this thought in the shower. I’m always thinking about this, but I can’t put it on my sheet.” So I think especially for non-billable things, it’s very interesting because that’s stuff you have direct control over. [inaudible 00:45:49] like, “Oh, you don’t need to do that anymore, or we can do this in a more efficient way.” For sure, it’s a question of improving the efficiency of the organization.

But for creat… not but, also with a creative type of business, which I think pretty much every knowledge worker listening to this is, in Peter Drucker’s terminology, you’re all knowledge workers. You can do bad work for an hour just as easily as you can do good work for an hour. Even if your time sheets were right, then the quality is really the metric. To me, the quality is reflected in not how good your work is compared to somebody next to you, it’s what outcome it delivers to your clients. If you’re delivering home runs to your clients, that’s really all I care about. If we can do it a little bit more efficiently, then great, track your hours.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, no doubt. It is not the holy grail of tracking, for sure. There are other things that we have to keep track of, client satisfaction, in our world today, employee satisfaction, because one of the biggest challenges for agencies today is the revolving door. That seems to be their situation in many cases as poachers are reaching out to their people every day. So keeping track of those things also delivers incredible value, no doubt. If people want to chat with you more about this or follow your work or your thinking, how do people find out how to do that?

Jonathan Stark:

Cool. Well, thanks for that. This has been super fun.

Drew McLellan:

It has been fun.

Jonathan Stark:

I thought we were going to have the boxing gloves on a little bit more, but that’s okay. They should go to jonathanstark.com. Right on the homepage, there’s a First Time Here. These are important links. That’s where you can go to. On there, you’ll see that I have something called a Value Pricing Bootcamp, which is a six-day free email course. Maybe if they’re interested in this specific conversation, then they can kind of go through that and see if they think I’m full of it or if it might be good for them.

Drew McLellan:

It sounds like it would give them some tools to practice maybe before they try it out on a real client.

Jonathan Stark:

You can reply to any email. It goes right to my inbox.

Drew McLellan:

Awesome. This has been a great conversation. I think everything is getting more expensive in the agency world, People, overhead expense, all the things, and agencies are so wary of raising prices, even their billable hourly rate, even if they don’t ever say to a client what it is, but it is how they construct their estimates. So I think this is a great way for people to start thinking about, how do I actually get paid of the value of what we’re delivering in a way that we can have confidence in and helps us offset some of the other expenses that we have coming in? Something has to change. The expenses of running the business are higher, so we’re foolish to keep doing it the way we’ve always been doing it and thinking that that’s going to work out so well. So I think you gave them a lot of food for thought for a different way to play with and explore and potentially actually exponentially change their rates and prices and equally make their clients more happy, which is going to get the client to spend more money the second and third time around as well.

Jonathan Stark:

Yeah, and recommend you to all those other things. Yeah, it’s a virtuous cycle.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, yeah, it’s awesome. This has been great. Thank you very much.

Jonathan Stark:

My pleasure.

Drew McLellan:

All right, guys. Jonathan gave you a lot to think about. So I’m hoping that you will bring up this topic at a leadership team meeting or start to play with it a little bit or think about how you might be able to dip your toe in the waters of stepping away from a billable rate, certainly if you’re still billing by the hour, which I know most of you aren’t, but even your project prices are still pretty much rooted in hourly rates. So I think this is a whole different way to think about it. I think you have a client or two you could experiment with it. You may have a hybrid solution. This may work for you just exactly as Jonathan described. Or like he said, remember, they don’t have to be mutually exclusive, so you can mix and match depending on the services that you offer your clients. But I think it’s worth playing with. I think it’s worth thinking about and talking about inside with your team, and then beginning to do some safe experimentation.

I want to give a big shout out and thanks to our friends at White Label. Speaking about profitability, one of the reasons why folks work with White Label, as you know, they do white label design, PPC and dev. But one of the reasons why a lot of agencies turn to them is because of the cost differential of working with White Label versus having a dev team in-house or working with somebody else. They are able to hold their costs so that agencies can make more profit on those kind of jobs. So if you want to learn more about them and how they’re helping agencies save money and make more money, head over to whitelabeliq.com/ami, and they will tell you all about it.

Thanks for listening. Thanks for being here. I’ll be back next week with another guest to get you thinking a little differently about some aspect of your business. In the meantime, you know how to reach me. I’m [email protected]. Talk to you soon. That’s all for this episode of AMI’s Build a Better Agency podcast. Be sure to visit agencymanagementinstitute.com to learn more about our workshops, online courses, and other ways we serve small to mid-sized agencies. Don’t forget to subscribe today so you don’t miss an episode.