The power of in-person networking and client-agency relationships with Hank Blank

Speaker 1 (00:01):

Running an agency can be a lonely proposition, but it doesn’t have to be. We can learn how to be better faster if we learn together. Welcome to Agency Management Institute’s Build a Better Agency podcast presented by White Label iq. Tune in every week for insights on how small to mid-size agencies are surviving and thriving in today’s market with 25 plus years of experience as both an agency owner and agency consultant. Please welcome your host, drew McClellan.

Speaker 2 (00:36):

Hey everybody. Drew McClellan here with another episode of Build a Better Agency. Thanks for joining us. Uh, we’ve got a great episode, uh, today I am excited to introduce you to our guest, but before I do that, I do wanna remind you that now is the time to grab your Build a Better Agency Summit Ticket for 2024. The conference is May 21st and 22nd in Denver for the first time. And the tickets are never gonna get less expensive than they are right now. They’re the early, early, early, early bird tickets. You can go on to the Agency Management’s Institute website. The very first navigation button is Ba A BA Summit. Click on that and you can grab that super early discount for tickets. Again, May 20th first and 22nd. Family Day or Member Day will be the 20th. Uh, we’re in Denver this year, downtown Denver. So brand new venue, venue, new brand new experiences.

Speaker 2 (01:30):

We already have some great speakers lined up, so if you know you’re gonna join us, if you’re a regular attendee or you’ve missed out the last few years and you’re like, I am not missing out again, then grab your ticket now and save yourself some money. Okay. All right. Let me tell you about our guest. So, Hank Blank is a guy that I have known for eons. Um, he has had, he’s worked in many large agencies. He started his career at j Walter Thompson and worked for several large agencies before, probably 20 years ago. He went out on his own as an agency consultant. He does a bunch of agency searches. So he is talking to agency people and clients who hire agencies all the time. So, I’ve known Hank forever, and he’s always insightful and interesting. Always has some great stories. So I asked him to join us and give us his sense of what’s going on in the space today, where agencies are making mistakes when they are pitching for new business, and how we can deal with some of the challenges that we’re facing today with all the changes that have brought, been brought about in the last couple years.

Speaker 2 (02:33):

So, I think you’re gonna love his insights and his inspiration and his ideas. All right. So let’s get to it. Hank, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 3 (02:43):

Thank you very much, drew. Nice to see you.

Speaker 2 (02:46):

I’m pretty sure that all my folks know you, but just in case somebody’s not familiar with you, why don’t you give everybody a little bio background on the work that you do with agency folks and, and your

Speaker 3 (03:00):

So, I’m Canadian. I don’t say a too much, but you know, I, yeah. I started my

Speaker 2 (03:05):

Career. I’m, I’m Minnesotan, so I say it as often as you do. I think.

Speaker 3 (03:08):

So I started my career in Canada working on the McDonald’s restaurants account, which was a great, great, great experience builder. And then I worked for, uh, 10 years at J W T Toronto in Chicago. The Chicago office was in the Hancock. They had 700 employees. J w T was founded in 1896. It has gone away. Yeah. Who would believe that? You know?

Speaker 2 (03:31):

Yeah. A lot of them have.

Speaker 3 (03:32):

Yeah. Now it’s called Wonderman Thompson. When I think about that, you know, we used to talk about branding. I could sit on a plane and say, I worked for J W T, and person next to me say, oh, that’s an ad agency. Yep. If I sat on a plane out and said, I worked for Waterman Thompson, they’d say, is that a med device company? Yeah. You know, I know. No clue. Then I ran the National Domino’s Pizza business at an agency group 43 slash r Ross Roy in Ann Arbor. And, you know, uh, like most Canadians, we all wanna move to, uh, to the US and I mean to California. And so I moved to, uh, Southern California where I am now in Orange County, halfway between LA and San Diego. And I was a executive, uh, partner at, uh, at Townsville O’Leary, which we grew to about 70 people.

Speaker 3 (04:21):

And, uh, and for about the last 20, 25 years, I run, uh, blanket Associates. And one of the things that, one of the services that I provide and Blanket Associates, it’s all driven by my network, you know, and I do, you know, help clients build websites and strategy and those types of things. But one of the things that I’ve done and I’ve really enjoyed, uh, is one of my, uh, one of my offerings is agency searches. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I’ve conducted about 25 reviews for companies like Jacuzzi, toy Tires, really supermarkets, the u p s store. And that is, uh, you know, out of that, I used to have a presentation that I called Why Agencies Don’t Want New Business. Yeah. And it’s about some of the simple but stupid things that agencies would do. So that’s kind of my, you know, I’ve been able to see it from a review consultant. I’ve have been able to see it from the agency, the agency world.

Speaker 2 (05:19):

So I know one of the things that you and I have known each other for years and talk about agencies all the time. I know one of the things you believe is that one of the greatest threats to agencies today is actually their clients. So can you expand on that provocative thought?

Speaker 3 (05:35):

Well, I think it is where I live in Orange County, if if we had visual on this, I could hit, I could show you the book A list. Yeah. Which everybody goes to, you know, the business generalist of agencies and the top three agencies are all in-house agencies. It’s an ocean that handles Hyundai, and it’s owned by the Hyundai Holding Company. Yep. It’s Ingram Micro. Ingram Micro, which is, you know, a big technology firm and distributor and a reseller. They have agency Ingram Micro with over a hundred employees. Yeah. A hundred employees. And then there’s Allegan that has p om, so you have to go down a number four s c s, which is a legitimate agency. And you know what, in the past they have fed maybe, you know, maybe Ingram Micro, you know, they would have fed a number of agencies, some small Yeah. Small, medium size size with a steady flow of work. Yeah. And now they’re doing it all in house. And I get emails from them. I say, do you ever go outside? And they say, no, we’re on a mission to cut down external agencies that we use globally. Yeah. So I think that’s definitely a threat. And you know what, and, and, and you work in your agencies, they probably work with clients that the social, social media work is done by the clients, you know, often. Right. Or Right, right. You know, the, they’re

Speaker 2 (07:06):

Always pieces of the pieces of the work that clients are taking in house for sure.

Speaker 3 (07:09):

Yeah. 100%. And in the past, you know, agencies could combat that. When they did things the clients couldn’t do, like clients couldn’t shoot, you know, a major TV commercial Right. That was gonna be, you know, done, you know, remotely, you know. Yeah. Right. We’re gonna go shoot it in New York City or take care of all the permitting and all that kinda stuff that you needed to do. Yeah. So agencies need to focus things, uh, focus on what clients can’t do. If clients have internal video departments, then you have to do animation or 3D or something different. But I definitely see that that is taken revenue out of the pool of dollars available where I am locally.

Speaker 2 (07:56):

Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. Um, we just finished up, uh, the 2023 Agency Edge research series that, you know, we do research every year. And the question we ask clients this year was, what prompts you to give your existing agencies more money? And so as part of that, they also talk about what they don’t give cl agencies money around. And you’re right. There are some things that they think they can do as well as agencies, if not better. And they are not inclined to change that opinion. So it is incumbent upon us to figure out what it is they’re not doing in-house that we can provide for them.

Speaker 3 (08:32):

Sure. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. And that varies with every client, right?

Speaker 2 (08:36):

Yeah. Right. Which is challenging then, right? Because you as an agency when have a core set of services, but it does require some sleuthing, if you will, to figure out where the client perceives that an outside perspective or team or set of hands is actually more valuable than what they do inside.

Speaker 3 (08:56):

Right.

Speaker 2 (08:57):

So, I know when you do your searches, uh, I’m sure you see all kinds of crazy things. I’m sure you have all kinds of stories of, you know, how agencies sort of stubb their toe, and I know, like you have a whole presentation on, clearly people don’t want bus business because of all these dumb mistakes you make. Yeah. What are some of the things that agencies are doing that translate to a client or a prospect that they’re really not as interested in their business as they say they are?

Speaker 3 (09:26):

Well, I’ll tell you a couple of things. I was gonna, it’s not just popped in my head from a client. I write, write that down. So, you know, from my agency reviews, and I think I first met you when I was doing a presentation called Why agencies Don’t Want New Business. Right. And it was really an assembly of all the little mistakes that agencies make when they pursue new business. And I have to tell you, so when I’m a search consultant and I engage with a client, they generally have a problem. Right. And they want a rapid solution. Right? Yeah. And, you know, so it’s like they’ve come to me, Hank we need agencies, and I, you know, I get emails from agencies and some of the smallest mistakes that they make is the new business person doesn’t have their cell phone number and their salutation. Yeah. So, you know what, I’m at a stoplight, you know what I mean? I wanna just hit that number so I can call them. Right. But you know

Speaker 2 (10:20):

What I, or shoot ’em a text or whatever.

Speaker 3 (10:22):

Yeah. Shoot ’em a text, but I can’t. So it’s as rudimentary as that. And you know, it’s sad, but it’s true. And, and, you know, we’ve always heard about cobbler’s children and everything like that,

Speaker 2 (10:35):

And I’m, I am pretty sure that is my very least favorite sentence that comes out of an agency’s mouth.

Speaker 3 (10:42):

Yes. Uh, and, but people still say that, oh, yeah. And you know what, and so let’s say I’m doing a review, right. So how do I find you and how do I know if you’re credible? Right. I’m gonna Google you. Right, right. Right. And if I don’t see any thought leadership, if I see other people that buy, you know, or have, you know, purchased keywords around your site, you know? Yeah. And some of it is ludicrous, you know, because I’ve done often and searched and I, I, I really, Google is the last way I try to, I go to my network first Sure. And all that. But you know, what, if I still need, if I still need to add candidates to the long list, I’m gonna do some research online, right? Yep. And I’ll see agencies say, I’m looking for healthcare agency in la and they pop up one, one or two, and I look, and they’re based in Denver.

Speaker 2 (11:34):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:34):

Right? Not in la I mean, want a waste of time. Right. You know what I mean? If somebody’s that specific that they want the locale and you’re in Denver, what are probabilities that you’re gonna get it? That’s right. So I think, you know, I see bad seo, I see rarely any I do from some, some agencies are fantastic from it, but I always use myself as an example. I have over a hundred YouTube videos. So, you know what, if you’re a 50 person shop, you can Right. You can better me. You know what I mean? I’m just a, a, a single individual. So, and the other thing is that there are so many, you know, over-promising and overstretching. Yeah. I always believe that, you know, what the best, one of the best ways to get new business is to say no and to grow your existing client versus being stretching and trying to get business from somebody that you’re really not, you know, you’re not capable of servicing them efficiently and what That’s right. You know? So I, I think that’s another mistake that agencies make. And, you know, and then the other thing is I find that agencies are contin when I go to a networking event, I’m a big networker. So obviously Covid not with Jesus out of networking, right?

Speaker 2 (12:55):

Yeah. That’s for sure. Yep.

Speaker 3 (12:57):

The ad club here didn’t have an event for two years.

Speaker 2 (12:59):

Yep.

Speaker 3 (13:00):

And I don’t go to the ad club, I go there for community versus getting business. Right, right, right. If you’re an agency, but it’s a great way to get find up and coming talent, right? Yeah. So when I go to networking events and I go to a variety of business events, and, you know, and I rarely meet an agency, uh, new business person at those events, very, very rare.

Speaker 2 (13:25):

Isn’t that interesting? Right.

Speaker 3 (13:27):

Agencies just don’t network. They don’t network. And, uh, oh, they might come, come up at the, you know, at the ad awards and those types of things, but generally at other events, I rarely see agencies.

Speaker 2 (13:41):

Yeah. Yeah. That is very true. You know, I think, I think the other, the other challenge that agencies struggle with, and you, and you’re absolutely right, I, I think 2023 is, is the year where agencies are really having a hard time with, uh, getting new business. And it is absolutely a time we have to be turning our attention and focus on how do we help grow the existing book of business we already have. Which is exactly why we focused on it for the research.

Speaker 3 (14:09):

Yeah. I, I, I, uh, I just was on a call earlier with somebody and they said, you know, I, I know some agencies are doing extremely well. Yeah. But it’s like this, our pipeline, we’re good for next couple of months. You know what I mean? Right, right. Yeah. And that’s not a long time. We’re gonna make payroll for 50 people, you know, twice a month.

Speaker 2 (14:29):

Right.

Speaker 3 (14:29):

And so it’s tentative, and, you know, if you listen to the press, everybody, although we’re we’re not, certainly not in one compared to 2008, 2009. Right. You know, they used the recession word a lot, right? Yep. Yep. That kind of makes clients tentative, you know, they’re gonna go, well, we’ll give you a little bit, not a lot, you know, we’re gonna, you know, be, you know, they’re, they, you know, they have to, maybe on their end, they need to get it reauthorized or, and, uh, reallocated. So there’s a lot of tentative stuff out there. And the only way that you fight, you know, that you do it, you know, the best way, 75% of all revenue bill comes from new, uh, uh, from your network. Right. From your relationship. Yeah. Cause your, your, your relationships become your referral network. But you find those relationships initially at networking events, you know, I think cold calling doesn’t work, even though some agencies cold call, you know, like, who are you gonna call? You know what I mean? There’s no receptionist.

Speaker 2 (15:31):

Well, and who’s gonna take, and who’s gonna take the call? And the odds of you getting them on the phone, having something relevant to say in the moment they’re open to hearing it, you know, not great.

Speaker 3 (15:42):

I wanna share one story that I said I, I asked a client whether they ever take a a call, you know, that comes through or not a call or an email when a person says, Hey, I’d love to have a 10 minute chat with you. Yeah. Right? Very senior company, no enterprise level company. And she’s a very se, she’s a C M O, right? She says, on occasion I do. But when I speak with them, I’m surprised how little they know about my business.

Speaker 2 (16:12):

Right.

Speaker 3 (16:13):

For instance, that she was franchised. She, they go, like, she said, do you have any franchise experience? And go, oh, are you franchised? Right. Like fundamental, you know what I mean? Fundamental.

Speaker 2 (16:26):

Yeah. Don’t pick up the phone if you don’t know.

Speaker 3 (16:28):

Yeah, yeah. You know, that type of thing. And I’ve seen, I work with, you know, like I’ll tell you, when I did a review once for, uh, the u p s store, and that’s their brand, the u p s stores, everybody in the R F P would write back. We’d love to work with u p s stores. You know what I mean? It would be plural, you know what? Right. And

Speaker 2 (16:50):

Driving sloppy mistakes. Right.

Speaker 3 (16:51):

Sloppy mistakes, which the client translates and they say, well, they have my business. They’re gonna be making sloppy mistakes they have no attention to. That’s

Speaker 2 (16:59):

Right. Yeah. They, yeah. I think, I think that’s a, I think that’s a killer for sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Yep.

Speaker 3 (17:05):

You know, little things like typos and RFPs and, you know, not proofing it or, you know, anyway, and, uh, dead links and all that kind stuff.

Speaker 2 (17:16):

Yeah. Well, and I think too, I think the other part of networking is, you know, you mentioned before, boy, back in the day, you would get on a plane and if you said you worked for J W T or y and r or any of the, the big agencies, we all started our careers at, everybody knew who you were talking about. And today, you know, a couple agencies might have some recognition, but I think really only within the agency space, 100%. And part of the other net part of what happens in networking events is you do begin to develop a brand. How are you seeing agencies develop a brand and have it mean something in the marketplace? Is it all thought leadership? Is it something different?

Speaker 3 (17:58):

Well, I’ll, yeah, I, I thought leadership is certainly a big part of it, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I, I’ll picture an agency in my brand that I think is very strong first when you first, they have a physical office outside the office is a very cool, it, it’s got cool signage, cool space, you know, cool part of the town, you know what it mean. And they happen to be hybrid. And they, when you walk in, everything is an integrated brand. They got a mixing board, and they’ve got this. And then the other thing is they’ve held, they hold, they’ve done things like open houses to, uh, and then they hold events and, you know, try to get people walking through the door, right? Yeah. And some of those people may not, you know, some of them, you know, they might do educational events for the marketing community and offer to host it there.

Speaker 3 (18:52):

Yep. And so it gives them some exposure, but the other way the brand is Yeah. Just the way their office is. I’ll tell you what, a lot of it is, you know, getting sloppy, but the way that people dress, you know, COVID has made everybody like sweats and, you know what? And bad guys, bad people. You know what, face it, we’re creative people. You have to look creative. Yeah. You know, you have to be look creative. You gotta have some game, you know, you know, you and, and then yeah, the thought leadership that they put out, how they promote themselves. And, you know, another way that I do it, are they involved in any philanthropy? You know, do they take on any pro bono accounts that Yeah. You know, it may be, you know, the, the people that are involved in pro bono and philanthropy are well connected, generally well-resourced, know a lot of people. Right. And so they become part of your word of mouth.

Speaker 2 (19:52):

Yeah, that’s right.

Speaker 3 (19:53):

So that’s some ways I think that they, you develop a brand, you know, you gotta, when I come into your office, I don’t, I, I don’t wanna say, is this, uh, an accounting firm,

Speaker 2 (20:04):

Right? So, so I’m curious in your, well, let’s take a break, but when we come back, what I wanna ask you is, with so many agencies going completely virtual and not having, not having a physical office, you know, part of the search process used to be the agency or the client or the prospect wanted to come to your shop and meet your people and get a feel for you and all of that. So I want to take a break, but when come back, I’m curious what you are seeing agency substitute for that agency visit or drop in if they don’t have a space. So let’s take a quick break and we’ll come back and talk about that. Hey, just wanna take a quick minute and tell you about a resource that we have on the website that, uh, I don’t talk about as often as I should.

Speaker 2 (20:47):

So it’s an exercise called My Future Self. And the reason why you would do this exercise is if you are in planning mode, and this is really for you as either an agency owner or an agency leader, but you really wanna think about what your future looks like, not the agency’s future, your future. I find so many agency owners struggle with how they are spending their days, and is it fulfilling and is this what they wanna do? You know, in five years that we created an exercise, and I, I will tell you a a very brief story, but I first did a version of this exercise probably 15 years ago ago, and it basically walks you through some thinking, and you have to do some journaling around what your future self looks like. And you have to sort of give yourself into it. You have to really suspend like the reality and talk about what it is today.

Speaker 2 (21:42):

But I’m telling you, when I did it, how it was different from my current moment in my life was pretty dramatic. And I was working with a coach at the time, and I said, this is great, and this is the life I want, but it doesn’t look like my life now. And we talked about just sort of being open to the possibility of transitioning in some of those directions. And I will tell you, for the last 10 years, I have been living that life, the life that I created in this exercise. So it can be very powerful and very eyeopening, and I’m not a woowoo kind of guy, but once I understood what I wanted as opportunities presented themselves, I just took advantage of them in different ways than I would’ve had I not done this exercise. So, head over to the am I website and go to agency management institute.com/my future self.

Speaker 2 (22:32):

And you can read more about it. Uh, there’s an intro, a video intro where I tell you all about it, and then some questions. It’s $197. If you don’t like it or you don’t want, you, don’t end up doing it, happy to give you your money back. But I’m telling you, it can be really transformative if you give yourself into the exercise and really do it with an open heart. So, just wanted to tell you it was there. Hopefully it’ll be helpful for some of you. Okay. Let’s get back to the show. All right. We are back and we are talking to Hank Blank about all things agency. So, Hank, right before the break, I asked you, it used to be common practice, if you got down to one of the final two in an agency review, or even sometimes if you were the only agency they were interviewing, they wanted to come to your shop. And Right. Basically it’s like visiting somebody’s house, right? You, you wanna get a sense of who they are and, and what they’re all about. And today, with so many agencies going virtual, I’m wondering what you’re seeing or what you are suggesting as a search consultant is the substitute for that.

Speaker 3 (23:35):

Well, I’m, let me, let me do, uh, say some things to get to, to that answer that question. Yes. You know, I, and where I am, a number of agencies, and don’t forget, this is Orange County. This is in la San Diego. But, you know, it’s, it’s just a, you know, a very wealthy, uh, three and a half million people live in Orange County. A lot of businesses here, you know, everybody from Taco Bell to Oakley, you know, lots of people, right? So during the pandemic, a number of agencies that I know went virtual and they closed their offices. Some of their leadership even moved to other cities. Yeah. And it could be some, I know had prominent logos on their buildings that if you drive down to, uh, the highway, you would see their local, right? Yep. Right. And some of them, they became invisible. And then I would run into people that I would be networking with or having coffee or a glass of wine, and I, I’d bring up the name of the agency and they’d go, are they still in business?

Speaker 2 (24:37):

Yeah. Right.

Speaker 3 (24:38):

Are they still in business? Are they still around? You know, because outta sight outta mind. Right?

Speaker 2 (24:44):

Right.

Speaker 3 (24:45):

So, you know, the first thing that I tell, I tell people, you know what, you can rent space if WeWork, that’s pretty easy. Right. And you can do your full office for a day. Yeah. You can go to the client’s side. Right. You know, I think a lot of agencies have become Zoom robots. Yeah. Zoom robots. And what I mean by that is they’ll, they’ve become comfortable because that’s the way they’re conducting their business. And they say, well, let’s just do a zoom call. Right. Terrible, terrible, terrible. Yeah. I’m gonna give you, you know what, because new business is theater, new business, you, even if you’re in their boardroom and you’re presenting in your boardroom and you’re standing up and you’re entertaining them and you’re weaving stories, you’re not reading just the PowerPoint if you’re up there and you are giving them a show. Yeah. That’s very powerful.

Speaker 2 (25:42):

Yeah. Agreed.

Speaker 3 (25:43):

I did a review during covid, and it was a very large enterprise client. Right. They probably had, I don’t know, seven, eight people on their side that were on the Zoom call during the presentation. Four of them turned their cameras off.

Speaker 2 (26:00):

No.

Speaker 3 (26:00):

Broke my heart first as an agency guy, cuz they know how much work that is. But I could say rude, indifferent, you know? Right, right. You know what I mean? But that zoom, you know, that they would, that just told me that if I was in agency pitching, I would just say, bye-bye. Right. You know what I mean? Bye-bye. Right. We’re not going, we’re not going to develop a mutually respectful relationship. Right. I’m not gonna be your partner. You know what, I’m not gonna be, you know, the person that you’re gonna come to for, you know, advice

Speaker 2 (26:34):

To make a connection and have deep conversations. Right. All the things we love about the business.

Speaker 3 (26:39):

Yeah. You know, for you, I’m just, uh, you whatever, I’m a vendor.

Speaker 2 (26:44):

I’m a vendor. Right?

Speaker 3 (26:45):

Yeah. Right. I’m a vendor. It’s funny, both you and I said that at the same time, right? Yeah. So how do you avoid that? Well, if you’re, if you’re virtual, again, you’ve gotta get out there. Yeah. You gotta get out to networking events. You gotta have your news. You gonna send out content, you’ve got to, you know, I, I will tell you one thing I, I saw years ago in tr in, in Toronto, when agency was pitching a client and they’re pitching a client, uh, there was at, at a corner, let’s say an intersection in Toronto, the one agency bought an outdoor board across the street Right. And said, we’d love to have your business.

Speaker 2 (27:25):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:26):

Right.

Speaker 2 (27:26):

Well, and and that’s part of the problem too. Like, okay, great. They can’t come to the agency cuz there is no physical location. But a lot of times even the clients don’t have a physical location. So you can’t even say, we’ll all hop on a plane so we can be in your boardroom and have a conversation. Cuz I think a lot, in many cases, both sides of the equation are working remote. And so, you know, so much of our work is chemistry and connection. And I, I just struggle to understand how we can create that in this two-dimensional world when we’re really not face-to-face and we don’t get a sense of each other in the same way.

Speaker 3 (28:08):

Fight for being live or in person. Yeah. As much as you can.

Speaker 2 (28:12):

Yeah. Even if you, like you said, even if you rent a WeWork space,

Speaker 3 (28:15):

Even if you are in a WeWork space Yeah. Even if you’re in a park. Yeah. You know what I mean? Fight for being in person because you know what, like you said, the relationships and I’m, uh, a big believer, you know, that covid has been very bad for a lot of people because we’ve been isolated. Right? Yeah. And there is, you know, and I, I think that, you know, being in person, talking to people releases endorphins. Right. You know what, and you can do so much in chemistry, and I see people that have come, go to networking events. I know they haven’t gotten to one for a couple years and they come in a room, they go, there’s so much energy here. This just feels really good. You know what? I really enjoy these presentations. And now it’s opened up. There should be an, you know what clients, it’s opened up more. You know, that it isn’t like the health issue. Like I’m not, you know, I’ve got, I’ve got, I’m immunocompromised, I’m not gonna go, I don’t care what you say, you know, this is it. Right. So, you know, much more prevalent for people to get up and, and meet in person. Yeah. So I would advocate for that 100%. You know, find something creative. You’re pitching a retail client, go into an empty mall, talk to the leasing manager and said, I wanna do popup agency for a day.

Speaker 2 (29:31):

Right? Yeah. Yeah. It is an opportunity for us to demonstrate our creativity.

Speaker 3 (29:36):

100%. It’s just, you know what, just changing the environment in a different way.

Speaker 2 (29:43):

Well, and today imagine if you did something like that and there’s four other agencies pitching, imagine how different you look from all the other agencies who are on Zoom.

Speaker 3 (29:54):

Yeah. 100%. See Zoom Ns, you

Speaker 2 (29:58):

Right.

Speaker 3 (29:58):

Zoom Ns. You zoom, you know, it’s a little like, you know Yeah. Zoom 100%.

Speaker 2 (30:06):

Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, even if you, even if you rented out a space and the client wasn’t there, if you shot from that space, like you said, if you rented a, an abandoned store inside a mall, right. And you, and you hired a camera crew to just shoot you live. And even if it went through Zoom that way, just creating the different environment, creating the different energy. Everybody’s standing up and as you said, performing, I think we’ve lost a lot of that art of the performance.

Speaker 3 (30:38):

Oh, you know what? Well, I, when agencies say, you know what, let’s just consider this a working meeting and they sit down. Yeah. I tell ’em, don’t do that. You know what I mean? Don’t do that. It’s all the same. It’s a working meeting, you know, so it’s comfortable. No, you know what, it’s the, it’s like I, I use it. It’s like theater. You’re supposed to be an artist. You’re supposed to be a performer. You’re supposed to be an entertainer. That’s what you are. You’re a creative person. Yeah. You know what, the way that, you know, you look and, you know, and it gets, you touch points with the client. Oh, I love what you’re wearing. Where do you get that? Oh, like you just came back from Portugal. I bought that at English, but Oh, I went to Lbu Baba Baba cries building Cries building. Cries building. Right. Yeah. And I think the other thing, if you do something creative, let’s say the pop up, you know, what, uh, what does it say to clients? Does it say you’re a problem solver? Yes. Does it say you’re resourceful? Yes. Does it say you think out of the box? Yes. Does it say you’re correct, you know that you’re approaching well,

Speaker 2 (31:39):

Does it say you really want the business? Yes,

Speaker 3 (31:41):

100%. Right. And I knew business. What I have found is what wins new business is experience chemistry and sweat equity.

Speaker 2 (31:53):

Yep.

Speaker 3 (31:53):

Sweat equity. And that’s a sweat equity. But chemistry, almost impossible to build on a zoom call. Yeah. Almost impossible or very difficult. Very challenging. You know what, as opposed to, and, and chemistry is a big, big, big part of it.

Speaker 2 (32:10):

Well, and, and again, if, if you do something that nobody else does, even that builds a chemistry because it’s surprising and they react to it and there’s emotion created to it. And I, and I think that’s part, you know, our business has gotten so data-driven and, and everything is around the numbers. And, and in some ways that’s awesome. We can say to a client, you give me a dollar, I can show you how I can give you three. I’m not, I’m not discounting any of that. But when you can add some emotional connection and some emotion, you know, again, as you said, the storytelling and being, creating a surprising moment when you can do that too. And you can get somebody who’s been looking at Excel spreadsheets and charts and data, you know, from everybody else. And you can show up and show them the Excel spreadsheet, but you also show them good old fashioned creativity and good old fashioned sort of energy. I do think it’s hard for them when they go back in the room to talk about the agencies. You become, well, let’s talk about the guys that were in the, in the mall. Yeah. Right. As opposed to, you know, the guys that were all in black. Right. Or, you know, the, the one that had the tall blonde girl or, you know, whatever.

Speaker 3 (33:23):

Right. You know, it reminds me, you know, JWT used to have a symbol and it was an owl and a lamp. And I think people need to remember that the owl was for wisdom. That’s the data part. Right. But the lamp, the genie is for magic. Right. Advertising whatever is still a magic. It’s creativity. Right?

Speaker 2 (33:42):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:42):

Right. It’s, it’s, you know, that’s what it is. It’s creativity. It’s it’s magic. And you have to, you have to present, uh, present the promise of that.

Speaker 2 (33:52):

You know, the other thing I was thinking about as we were talking about this is the other audience that feeds off of doing something like that are your employees.

Speaker 3 (34:00):

100%.

Speaker 2 (34:01):

We don’t, we don’t get to do as much of that anymore. And, and we don’t get to do, I mean, that’s the crazy stuff you went home and talked about at the dinner table was, oh my gosh, we rented this store in the mall and we had the camera crew and you know, we ran and got a, you know, auntie Ann’s pretzel for lunch. And, you know, I mean, that’s the sort of experience that agency people, that’s why they were drawn to the business is the fun of the business. And I, I think it’s harder in today’s world to make working at an agency fund.

Speaker 3 (34:31):

I, I will tell you, I know people, cause one of the strengths of my network is that it’s very youth focused. Right. I’m gonna go out and have drinks with somebody tonight at Laguna Beach. And I met ’em when they were 24. Now they’re 34, and they work for agencies and they’re doing their own thing like many do. Right? Yep.

Speaker 2 (34:49):

Right.

Speaker 3 (34:50):

And, uh, I had a, a beer with a a 26 year old, a Google AdWords person this week. You know, really, really smart people. Right? Yeah. And, and you’re right. You know, let’s say I ta I talked to a lot of young people and I helped them get jobs. Some of them, let’s say they graduated three years ago. Right. They have never been in an ad agency of the agency. No. I could say with some agencies came to my mind that have gone totally virtual March of 2020. They’ve never been in an ad agency. Yeah. They’ve never been in an ad agency. All their conversations, uh, interactions are on Slack or Zoom or whatever, Google. And they’ve never had that experience. And that experience was very good for building loyalty.

Speaker 2 (35:40):

Yeah. Right.

Speaker 3 (35:41):

It would get you, when you talked about where it would get you commitment. Yeah. You know, would those people work long hours and bust their butts? Yes. Right. You know, would they come in, you know, get the pre, you know, and Yeah. 100%. So it is very challenging now. And I think the other challenging thing, and I, you know, I just segue, is I think agencies need to develop and employ, uh, find a way to, you know, hire and employ the best people. And this is a challenge now.

Speaker 2 (36:14):

It is, it is a tough challenge.

Speaker 3 (36:16):

They’re competing with in-house agencies Yep. And in-house agencies, maybe they don’t provide the same creativity, but maybe a higher level of security. Right. Right. Maybe they provide a brand name that they know. Yeah. Who knows, you know, if you work in-house, you know, maybe you get a card discount, who knows. Right, right, right. All kinds of things. Right. So, and then many clients, marketing departments are staffed with SEO specialists, Google, AdWord Pros, social media, uh, managers. So when’s the last time? And if you’re a principal, maybe you don’t go to the at club, but when’s the last time somebody at your agency that had, you know, had authority attended an ad club event? Right. Or even a PR event, because who do pr s a events who does social media at agencies, PR agencies, clients, social media agencies. Right, right. And now the other thing that I see if in Orange County, pretty much every PR agency sends their full service.

Speaker 2 (37:18):

That’s right. Yeah. Well, PR has changed so much. I mean, it used to be all about earned media. And today it is, you know, their content shops, they’re, they’re doing social, right. Yeah. Right. They, their, their service offerings have broadened as the world has changed.

Speaker 3 (37:35):

Now, would I do a review and, and go to a PR firm that’s got four dig four digital people? No way.

Speaker 2 (37:42):

Right.

Speaker 3 (37:43):

The people that wanna site built by four people aren’t using a search consult.

Speaker 2 (37:47):

That’s right. You know? Right. They’re not,

Speaker 3 (37:49):

They’re a smaller company. So, but like once the last time, had you’ve gone to anybody from your agency, gone to a career fair, when have you spoken at a college? Right. The reason I’m youth centric is that prior to covid, I used to speak at all the universities on, I had a presentation called Why Young People Shouldn’t Get a job. And certainly it was about they should get a job, but it was about building their personal brand. Because if you’re 25, you’re probably gonna have 15 jobs. Right. You know, uh, or, or more. And then eventually gonna wanna work for yourself. So when have you, uh, when have you, uh, gone to some of those places where you can actually meet young people? Right. And I tell you, if you do it, it’s like next week I’m going an event at Hanger 24. The average age of the people there will be 32. Right. I’m much older than 32. There’s another event on that night that I, uh, I could go to. It’s a technology event, but I’m going to the event with the 32 year olds.

Speaker 2 (38:55):

Right.

Speaker 3 (38:56):

Because they’re gonna provide me more with more resources and longevity and relevance. Right. So I’m going to the event with the 32 year olds, and if I can find them in Orange County, you can find those places in your community.

Speaker 2 (39:13):

For sure. For sure. Host. Well, and you know,

Speaker 3 (39:16):

Or I’ll tell you the other thing I, sorry to interject there, or host a meetup at your agency, you know what I mean? Host meetups at your agencies for WordPress. People do presentations on whatever, whatever content that you want. And, and dev and, and develop that, you know, that pipeline of young talent.

Speaker 2 (39:36):

Well, and I, I, I think the interesting thing about the young people today is, I mean the, the workforce has changed. How are you seeing agencies create culture and connection today inside their shops?

Speaker 3 (39:50):

I will tell you, it’s a, and you know what? I do this, I see a lot of social things like here in Orange County, obviously, hey, we’ve got on a, you know, we’ve got on rented a boat for the afternoon and we’re gonna go see dolphins, right?

Speaker 2 (40:05):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (40:06):

Or they’re gonna go and, you know, there, you know, there’s low hanging fruit. You celebrate birthdays, you celebrate anniversaries, you celebrate milestones, and you may try to make them important to the individual,

Speaker 2 (40:17):

Right?

Speaker 3 (40:18):

Yeah. Right. And, and to, and, and the team, right. So that they, they do that, you know, you can go to sports events. I, you know, I will tell you the, you know, the philanthropy part, like if you are run, I, I, I’ll tell you, like if you are, I’ll participate in, uh, Susan, you know, cancer walks

Speaker 2 (40:41):

Right.

Speaker 3 (40:42):

As an agency. Yeah. It says something about the culture, you know, the social currency. Uh, and, but management has to come out, right?

Speaker 2 (40:50):

Right. That’s right. Yep. So how, how, how do you see agencies doing that when they’re scattered all over the country when they’re, they can all go to a ballgame or they can all do, uh, philanthropy event together. What else are you seeing agencies do to create connection? Because I, I think otherwise, you know, your agencies are revolving door. If people don’t have that loyalty and that connection, then somebody offers them three grand more. And as you say, they’re gonna have 15 jobs in their lifetime. So they go,

Speaker 3 (41:18):

I, I would tell you, I saw one agency in my, and came up on LinkedIn that I know, and they brought everybody in.

Speaker 2 (41:25):

Yeah. We’re recommending that too, that at least once or twice a year, all your people have to physically be together.

Speaker 3 (41:31):

Physically be together. Yeah. Know what, and if you, you can do it a sense of comfort. You can rent a hotel. I’ve heard of people renting an Airbnb, a huge house. Yeah. Right. That’s dependent on the size of your agency. You know what, it, it, well might not sleep 50, but let’s say you’re a 12 person shop. Right. You can find a, a big house. Yep. You know, uh, uh, and so I see people doing that. I think the best is once a year, you, you go for it and you say, Hey, I’m gonna bring everybody in. And, uh, so it’s tough to do. Uh, not tough to do, it’s just an investment. Right. But you have to invest in your people to keep ’em long term.

Speaker 2 (42:10):

Right. All right. My last question. So as a search consultant, Annette, because you get to talk to both clients and agencies, what is, what is the client’s perspective on AI and agency work?

Speaker 3 (42:24):

Well, every, obviously it’s a huge buzzword, right?

Speaker 2 (42:28):

Yeah. Right. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 (42:29):

I, I’ll tell you, I, I assure a story, anecdotal story that a 26 year old that does the Google AdWords works for an agency. Right. And they’re trying to do Google ad, uh, use AI for Google AdWord campaigns and sell that to the client. Now, if I was a client, I go, well, why do I need you? You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (42:52):

Right. I’ll get back to your, it’s get back to the first conversation, right. Clients are just saying, well, I’ll just do that myself. Yeah. So are you finding clients are looking at AI that way? Like, oh, that’s just a tool that I can use to cut the agency out of the middle?

Speaker 3 (43:09):

Uh, not yet. I think it’s still early. Yeah. You know what I always hear, cause it happened here in Orange County, but, you know, yeah. I remember AI I think is a powerful tool. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Do I want a, if I was going to have, uh, a knee replacement, do I want to have the operating procedure from ai? Maybe not. Maybe I want it from a doctor that’s done the procedure a hundred times, you know?

Speaker 2 (43:35):

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure.

Speaker 3 (43:36):

So I think clients are interested. I think clients are, uh, a little confused. Like they often are. Yeah. But I remember a lot of this could be, remember, you know, the.com bus? We had companies here like buy.com that’re worth more than General Motors, cuz they had a good url, you know, and they had no sales. So I think part of it will, you know, will go away. And I, I think they’ll but clients in that area, they want somebody that will come and lead them like anything else. Agencies that you have, that cli agencies that have the longest relationships with their clients always are the best leaders. Yeah. And they have always, uh, in front of them. So if you haven’t presented to your clients on AI strengths and weaknesses, I would do it. Right. Right.

Speaker 2 (44:26):

Yep.

Speaker 3 (44:26):

I would start sharing, sending them whatever opinion piece on ai. And you mentioned Data Pro, this is probably best led by your data scientists. Yep. Or, you know, your data analytics person and maybe your strategists. And together you know, that you are inviting them all, all. And this is a good opportunity, I think when there’s something new like this. Not invite the marketing people, but extend it to all the C-Suite people that you might not touch because they have heard about it. It’s probably they’re looking at some initiatives and they want some guidance and leadership For sure. And you know what, and what do you want? Somebody’s driving back in the car and say, Hey, those guys seem like they were really smart. You want the c e o to be sending, saying that to the marketing person? Yeah. Right. I’m glad I spent the time to go to that, to go to see that or attend that Zoom call.

Speaker 2 (45:19):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:20):

So get ahead of the pack, get it ahead of the pack, have a certain amount of skepticism about it and you know, there’s so many players, it’s a wild, wild west, you know what? And uh, but then in the end, you know what? There’s nothing like, you know, a person has got to be guiding it, you know what I mean? Oh, for

Speaker 2 (45:42):

Sure. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:43):

Or you’re gonna have help.

Speaker 2 (45:45):

Yeah, yeah. It’s, yeah. It’s, it is not so automated that it still doesn’t need human intelligence for sure. Yes. Yeah. Right.

Speaker 3 (45:51):

Yeah. Because then it’s gonna be parody, they’ll take it in-house. Yep.

Speaker 2 (45:55):

Right.

Speaker 3 (45:56):

So, you know what I I I just wanted to say, you know, I think it’s very challenging to run an agency today. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, you know, from the, the days when, Hey, let’s do a 10 million media, buy, 15% do a TV commercial, hey, uh, fun and happy, you know? Yeah. It’s a much more granular business. And, uh, but I, I’m, I’m a really strong believer in the agency model. The business, like you say, is very stimulating and rewarding, but the parallel challenges need to be overcome, and you just have to keep reinventing yourself so you don’t become like a J W T and disappear.

Speaker 2 (46:35):

Right. That’s exactly right. That, that is the perfect ending for, for this conversation is we have to keep innovating and changing and, and thinking different if we wanna be relevant. So you’re ab you’re absolutely right. The, the one constant is change.

Speaker 3 (46:51):

Yes. And agencies have always been the agent of change, you know? Yep. So, uh, hope this helped Drew, and it’s good to see you again.

Speaker 2 (47:00):

You, you as well. Hank. If folks want to get in touch with you, if they wanna read your thought leadership, if they wanna follow you, what’s the best way for them to track you down

Speaker 3 (47:10):

And, uh, hank blank.com, you know, and, or you can google Hank Blank and I’ll be there with some thought leadership, [email protected]. But if you go to hank blank.com, it’s there.

Speaker 2 (47:23):

Seriously, you should have been a baseball player. That’s like a great baseball player name.

Speaker 3 (47:26):

Yes, it is. Yeah. You know what? And, uh, the best thing is on a podcast, can’t see it, but the back of my card, large letter says blank. And, and when I hand that out, I don’t hand out the part that says what I do and everything. Yeah. I hand out the blank the way you laugh, they laugh. I’m second base, I’m at second base with them. We’ve developed rapport, we’ve, and we’ve done it on humor, which is a great way to do it,

Speaker 2 (47:54):

Right? Yeah. That, that’s right. You

Speaker 3 (47:55):

Can’t, you can’t tell Zoom. I was gonna say, yeah. You can’t tell jokes on a Zoom call

Speaker 2 (48:00):

<laugh>, right? Yeah. It is very different. It’s a different world. But I, I appreciate your time and your insight. I know everybody, uh, was probably frantically taking notes and nodding their heads. I think you, I think you touched on a lot of points that people are feeling and experiencing, and so I am, I am grateful for your time. Thank you, my friend.

Speaker 3 (48:18):

Okay. Be well. Take care. Get some sleep.

Speaker 2 (48:21):

Yeah, I will. Alright guys, this wraps up another episode of Build a Better Agency. Uh, Hank gave you a lot of things to think about and to, uh, sort of validate some of the things that you’re feeling and seeing, and also some things for you to guard against some of that complacency, some of that settling for the way things are being done now as opposed to infusing your creativity into them. And so I’m hoping he inspired you to bring some, some new energy and creativity to how you approach new business, how you approach your team and all the work that we do. So with that, uh, I’m gonna let you go, of course, a huge thank you and shout out to our friends at White Label iq. As you know, they’re the presenting sponsor of this podcast, so learn more about [email protected]. They are, uh, many agencies partner in doing design dev and PPC work.

Speaker 2 (49:20):

And because they’re born from an agency, they really understand how to help you maximize a project, how to get it done on time, how to get it done on budget, and how to make sure that that budget leaves margin for you as well. So check them out, uh, give them a call. Good, good people. Highly recommend them. Uh, known ’em for 20 years, I think. Uh, and then they’re just salt of the earth people who love agencies and love being helpful. So I think you’re gonna enjoy getting to know them and working with them if you take that opportunity. In the meantime, I’ll be back next week with another guest. Can’t wait to see who we’re gonna talk to next and how they’re gonna help us rethink about or reshape the way we approach our work. Uh, I’m grateful for all of you. I I love meeting you at conferences and getting emails from you and seeing you in the Facebook group, so keep coming back. If you come back, I’ll come back, I promise. All right, I’ll see you next week. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 1 (50:17):

That’s all for this episode of amis Build a Better Agency Podcast. Be sure to visit agency management institute.com to learn more about our workshops, online courses, and other ways we serve small to mid-size agencies. Don’t forget to subscribe today so you don’t miss an episode.