How agency owners can be more effective in creating transformational change with Tamsen Webster

Running an agency can be a lonely proposition, but it doesn’t have to be. We can learn how to be better faster if we learn together. Welcome to Agency Management Institute’s Build a Better Agency podcast presented by White Label IQ. Tune in every week for insights on how small to midsize agencies are surviving and thriving in today’s market. With 25 plus years of experience as both an agency owner and agency consultant.

Please welcome your host, drew McClellan.

Hey, everybody. Drew McClellan here with another episode of Build a Better Agency. We are marching our way to episode 500. And today is a good one. This is a great episode. I’m excited to share our guest with you and her insights. You know, one of the things that is true. I don’t care what kind of an agency you are.

We are change agents. We are the makers of change. We help consumers, whoever that may be. Think differently about our clients products or services. We try and find the right message, the right media mix. We try and get in front of the right audience who cares about what our clients do. But at the end of the day, we’re not doing our job.

If we’re not effecting change. And you know, when you think about it, that’s no small ask that we have to do that every single day. We have to help our clients do that every day. And so this particular guest and this topic I think is really, really relevant, to our work. And honestly, I think probably to our, our personal lives as well.

So many of you are very familiar with Tamsen Webster. She is an amazing, author, coach, change agent. And she, has for many years, been my coach and helped me with, my keynotes for the Baba summit. And, she has put a lot of people on TEDx stages and all kinds of things, and again, with both speakers and agencies, and she has an agency background.

She worked for an agency for a long time. She understands that for speakers as well. Oftentimes they’re trying to impact change. And so, Tamsen went into a deep period of study around what actually does cause lasting change. And she ended up writing a book about it. And, that book is coming out, this week, and you are going to want to read it.

But before you read it, you’re going to want to hear what Tamsen has to say about how we can be more effective in creating change and the mistakes we make, the things that we think, cause, or create the opportunity for change that actually get in the way of that. So without further ado, let’s welcome Tamsen to the show.

Tamsen, welcome back to the podcast. Glad to have you back. I’m so glad to be back, drew. Hello and thank you for having me. So one of the reasons we were having you back is because you have a brand new book coming out. So tell us a little bit about the book and why the book, and we’ll dig into some of the content.

Absolutely. So the book is, say what they can’t unhear the nine Principles of Lasting Change and why the book? Because I have seen over the years, all the years that I’ve spent in branding and messaging, but also in transformational change and change communications, that a lot of the advice that is out there, at least in the business world, is very much focused on getting an initial yes from folks.

But that initial yes still often turns into a no or a maybe, or just a very slow response later. And I knew from other areas of my research and practice that this problem has been solved other places. So the book is, you know, my taking these concepts that are known in other areas of research and practice and translating them for that business audience, for the leaders who are trying to help people, help people make a transformational change.

So talk a little bit about how you came to know this. Like how did you come to discover the missing link if you will? Yeah. Well, it is something I’ve seen for a long time in not because I’m somehow like, you know, gifted in seeing that. It’s just it was a it was a combination of factors. So I’ve been interested in transformational change, by which I mean change that doesn’t come undone.

Since I had my first panic attack when I was 17, which is obviously not a business environment. But, you know, if you’re familiar with folks with panic or if you’ve ever experienced that yourself once you have experienced it, you really don’t want to do it again and know it can be in this cycle of trying to figure that out.

And while it did take me 17 years to figure that out, I was always very interested in what was part of that, because there were other transformational changes that I had made. Again, from a personal standpoint, like weight loss and those kinds of things. So in my personal life, I had these transformational changes, and I also started to help other people do that as well.

So for 13 years I moonlighted as a weightwatchers leader. And so I really learned through practice and individual interaction what were as far as what to say, how to say it, when, when did I need to just go? This is not right for them right now. And yet my day job was also about transformational change, because anybody who’s in a creative agency doing sales or marketing or biz dev or pitching knows that they’re trying to do the same thing.

They’re trying to get people to shift how they’ve been doing something, or move from a previous agency to a new one, or to go in a new direction and the things I had been taught from a marketing and sales perspective just didn’t match what I was seeing actually work on an individual basis. And so I really just started to research and bring all that together.

And what I started to do was to take the things that I still work for one on one individual transformational change and apply them to that day job. And over the years I started, I started to kind of condense what I knew into these principles that I would use to to guide my work and to help other people do this work.

When I was starting to work with clients on how to do this for themselves, and those are the books that those are the books, those are the principles that that ended up in the book. Just this kind of melding of what I had found in psychology and, and neuroscience and behavioral economics and all of these other things and brought them over to the business world.

So I know that you are sort of fascinated by human behavior and all of that. So I know you’ve asked yourself this question, how did we miss this? Why why, why isn’t this native or natural? Or if it works in other parts of our life? How have we missed this in our business practice? You know, I’ve thought about that and I, I actually think it has a lot to do with.

It’s gonna sound like a very wonky answer, but, you know, I’m an academic as well, so walk away. I think it has a lot to do with leadership theory and how we thought about management for so long, because for a very long time, the dominant theories of management were very much command and control. I’m going to happen and this is what’s going to happen.

So if we think about a lot of the, you know, that kind of theory about, well, the what the leader says goes, right. I mean, it’s evolved a little bit. Right? But a lot of marketing and sales came out at the same time. Yeah. So while in certain cases we’ve, you know, regressed in other areas, I don’t think that we ever went back into some of these other areas when it came to, okay, this stuff works and it works to drive action.

And I think because it worked, we never stopped to think about, yeah, but why isn’t that action repeating? Why isn’t that action right. Stating why do we still have issues with it? But just as a small example, I mean, one of those one of the big mantras I hear a lot in sales messaging particularly, is make the pain of the status quo exceed the pain of change.

And I just want you to like if you’ve ever spent any time in therapy, I just want to say, like, have you ever known of a therapist to be like, everything you’re doing now is wrong, and having that be the way that they’re trying to prompt you to change? Oh, right. Like it’s not how other well we do it in other areas.

And so it’s just really saying like, hey, we know how to do this over here. And I think that, you know, maybe the other only other thing that I’ve been able to think of is that some of those processes of that we can see in, in psychology, G, and in sometimes in kind of grassroots efforts. So because a lot of this stuff about motivational interviewing, street canvasing, I think there’s a perception that sometimes this long achieving, long term change takes a long time.

But again, that’s not what I had seen in my own experience. And so what I you know what this book is really about, since I’m so interested in it, is how do we accelerate the understanding and adoption of new ideas, how we do that weekly? And so this is where yeah, it’s a lot of the stuff that I’ve researched from other places, but it’s also a good dose of, you know, my working in the business world and knowing what is going to work and what isn’t going to work, not only from a human standpoint, but what are people going to be willing to introduce and willing to experiment with, and that fundamentally is only something

that’s going to work quickly well and work permanently. Because I think, yeah, I mean, having read the book and having helped produce an e-book about how agency owners can leverage your book and your thinking in their world, which we’ll talk about at the end of the show. One of the other takeaways for me was not only does it work quickly, but it works permanently, like this is this is not a one time change.

So for many agencies, they get a yes and then they get ghosted or they get a yes. We’re going to start and then it gets kicked out in 30 days, then 60 days and whatever. And they can’t figure out why baby. They can’t figure out how to accelerate the actual yes to a permanent decision. Right. Or inside a team.

They get somebody to do something once. But do they change their behavior on an ongoing basis like God? I’ve told them this 1200 times. How many times do I have to show them, yeah, do it this way. And so I think one of the big takeaways for me from the book was, if you want to get to some, whoever the audience is nodding their head about the change you’re trying to encourage them to make, and you actually want them to make it and then stick with it.

These are the principles that will help you do that. Absolutely, absolutely. And, well, I you know, there’s no guarantee that any change is going to be permanent. I mean, that’s why I went for lasting long term change. You know, the the title of the book is it is intentional. It’s it is say what they can’t on here because at the very least, that should be the goal where something that you have said, either because it disrupts how they’ve been thinking about it so far again, but based on things that doesn’t don’t make them feel bad about what they don’t make them more even more anxious.

Right? Exactly right. Because if somebody is in a state of anxiety and this is something we know both from neuroscience and from adult learning theory, like an anxious brain can’t learn, it can act. It’s going to act to try to resolve the anxiety. But that’s not a rational action. So a lot of times when we are piling up the pain, dialing up the anxiety or adding to it in their own way, in our own way, we’re actually planting the seeds that they may rationalize themselves out of that.

Yes, when they’re not quite so keyed up about something. Right. So this is about making sure that from the get go, we’ve done everything we can do in the presentation of a change to build agreement. And like true agreement, alignment based agreement in from the beginning. Because fundamentally, it doesn’t matter how great your presentation is, how clever your strategy is, if fundamentally they don’t agree with it.

And so that’s what we’re trying to do is we’re basically, you know, all of this is about how can we create that story that they’re going to tell themselves about what you’re presenting to them in a way that is based on things that they’ve really already bought into, that they already agree with. It’s consistent with the things that they already do.

Well, that that phrase boy can’t hear your voice keeps playing in my head, right? Like, you know that you’ve kind of gotten into their psyche when they’re saying that. Exactly. So really, this is about and a lot of the book is about sort of understanding the why behind how people approach change, which I’m not really sure we always think about.

We think about the what will make them change the facts or the to your point, the pain versus the pleasure. We don’t really think about the psychology of sort of how humans approach change. And your books are of outlines that and your principles are sort of based on that. So can you talk a little bit about that? Sure.

Absolutely. So, you know, it isn’t that humans don’t want to change it, it’s that humans typically mean, because one of the things that points that I make right in the the opening of the book is that we’re actually really good at change. I mean, show me a single day that goes as planned, like no two days in your life are exactly alike, which means you actually are pretty good about dealing with change.

Generally, when people are resistant to change, they are resistant to loss. And that’s where a lot of advice has gone wrong because they’re like, oh, we just play up what they’re going to lose and they’re going to do this. Absolutely. But it’s actually, you know, what I came to understand over time is that that change aversion is risk aversion.

And a huge amount of what humans are trying to do is not necessarily stay the same. They’re trying to stay safe. And a lot of how we present information about change, if it’s based on things that they don’t know, haven’t heard before, don’t believe so want, don’t see themselves as having a problem about, then that feels like a really risky decision.

And so this whole idea as well, because people will fundamentally trust their own intuition, their own experience, their own beliefs first and most and long as right. This the whole hypothesis of the book and and it does play out in reality is that if we can base what we’re talking about on things that they already know to be true, if we can anchor a change in something that we know that they not and knowingly want right now and are not satisfied with, then we have raised the probability right out of the gate that this is going to be something that that they are going to recognize, understand, and importantly agree with, at least in principle,

which allows you to go to the next step and say, okay, now what would this look like in practice? And then see what we’re trying to where we’re trying to go. But what I see over and over again is that we jump to, here’s why we can do this in practice, but that’s not what has to happen. First, people have to prove that it’s possible period.

Before that they’re going to go, okay, now Will how. And so by only answering that how will how do you do. This is why it’s important okay. Here’s how you do it okay. So you know, as I say in the book, the understanding why you’re doing a change is important. That’s you know, Simon Sinek is is all about that.

People need to understand that that’s a fundamental human need. There’s lots of research behind that. But they it’s not just the ends of something that they need to agree with. They need they need to agree not only that, whatever the the whole reason you’re doing this is worth it, that that has to be part of it. But they also have to agree with the why behind the how.

They have to agree with the means of it. And I don’t mean the tactical means. I mean, why are you doing it this particular way? Why is this the answer for it? And that’s the that’s that has to feel very comfortable for them from the beginning. Right. They have to believe, for instance, that okay, if you’re saying that accountable delivery is part of the answer, then then they need to know why is accountability part of the answer?

And it’s not just because it’s going to achieve the outcome, which is a word we often get into. It’s because let’s say we’re looking for, you know, to, you know, successfully making a strategic shift in something. And we articulate that accountability is to us the ownership of outcomes. Well, if the person you’re talking to agrees with that, that accountability is the ownership of outcomes.

Now, it makes a heck of a lot more sense. Why account it why? You’re saying accountability needs to be part of the answer, right? If we’re trying to navigate a huge shift, otherwise we just end up going, we’re asking people to take our word for it that it will happen. And so this book is really about saying, listen, we know that people have to understand why.

And thanks to Simon, we’ve got one of those whys generally fairly well defined. But in a lot of ways this book is my I kind of create a curve like, you know, a call to arms to say we have to articulate the why behind how you’re getting to that answer as well. Yeah. So one of the points in the book that really stuck with me was this idea of, we can’t want it more than they do.

Yeah. So yes, because I think a lot of times when we think about like agency owners and selling and, you know, we gotta make payroll and our, you know, our numbers have been soft for a couple of months. And yeah, we really want them to buy this thing or this program or this retainer or whatever it is. Talk a little bit about what happens when we want it more than they do, and what we have to do to get them to want it as much or more than we want them to want it.

Yeah, it’s I know it gets some of these things get very loopy very quickly. Yeah, yeah. So what happens when we want it more than somebody else does is first and foremost the most obvious thing is we start to argue for it from our point of view. Right? We start to argue for why it makes sense, but we’re really doing it for why it makes sense to us.

And we typically don’t do it from their perspective of why it would make sense for them. And even if we tell ourselves we’re making that case, it’s our opinion about what makes it makes sense for them, not what actually would make it make sense for them. Yeah, a little bit. So how do we figure out how do we figure out the difference between my assumption about what you, why you would want it and why you really want it?

So one of the well, so one of the quick diagnoses is whether or not all your explanations for it fall into the camp of features of benefits, because one of the big is I had in the midst of writing this book was what features of benefits actually are? Because fundamentally you know, a particular campaign or, you know, decision to go with you as an agency, think of that as an answer to a question that your clients are actively and knowingly asking right now.

So if we’re thinking about that as question and answer right then features are essentially just other versions of the answer right? Like, yeah, if if we have this feature, it will answer your question if we have this feature. So it’s just other versions of the of the answer. It still doesn’t give us this, this case, this argument for why it’s the answer.

And then benefits are really just other versions of questions that that that that point it may or may not be asking. So so essentially what happens sometimes is when we’re trying to make the case, we’re essentially just basically saying what? Because I said so because this is the answer, which is not satisfying to kind of the more rational parts of our brains.

And so one of the ways to, you know, one of the things that I talk about in the book is to get as deep into, you know, the, the principle, like what is true about this aspect of your approach? Like, I’ll go back to that accountability thing, what we identified when we said that accountability is the ownership of outcomes.

What we did was we identified something that’s inarguable to our client that that they, you would agree is true. Accountability is the ownership of outcomes. Something that’s true about accountability that makes it absolutely is central now to to feel absolutely essential to achieving the outcome that they’re looking for. And so to me, that’s the answer is like it’s actually taking it in many ways out of the context, the specific context that you’re presenting.

And you’re looking at it and saying, what is it? What about this is do we is true even someplace else? Like, what aspect of this approach that we’re taking, or what aspect of the strategy that we’re proposing is true anywhere? Right. And because it’s true over in this example, right, then it’s going to be true over here as well, because that’s really what we’re trying to do.

But the key to so that’s important because if they don’t agree with that then they’re never going to agree. And that’s and that’s part of it as well. But the key to really you know, what to do to get them to wanted is more than they do. Is that again, it’s not you can’t make them want no. Right.

The only thing you can do is do, you know, kind of do your due diligence and figure out what do they want enough that they are very unlikely to unwanted that that your solution, your agency or your strategy legitimately delivers. And that is what it really comes down to. You know, one of just as a quick example, I mean, I remember it this is not easy for most places because this is generally not how we think about things.

That’s part of why I wrote the book in the first place. But I remember I work for an agency that was very proud of its culture, and it would use its culture as part of the explanation for why we were the right clients, or why we, you know, why our clients were well, why we were the right agency for a particular client.

And I have to tell you, drew, that just never made sense to me because we never were able to link our culture to a better product for the client, right. Or a better experience or a better something. Yeah, right. I mean, it was just like, well, it’s great that you all love each other and go out for drinks, right?

But yeah, but it’s like but how does that translate? Because if we don’t make that right there might if we don’t make that really clear, go, we don’t anchor it to something that we’re fairly sure that a potential client really cares about. That actually might have been a reason why some client didn’t want to work with us. Right?

Because, you know, a good culture, particularly in the agency world, translates to you can’t call us 24 hours a day. And for some clients, that might not be okay. But if we were able to say, hey, you know what a great culture means? Less turnover, which means you’re going to get less disruption to your service, which means you’re going to get people who know your business inside and out, and they’re going to be the team that you’re going to see day in, day out.

Over time. So no, maybe you can’t talk to them 24 hours a day, but you are going to be able to count on the fact that they’re going to be here 24 months from now. Tell us when that’s not been a problem someplace else. Yeah. So it doesn’t take much to start to say, okay, well, what are the challenges that are frustrating and what might be more important to them, right, than calling somebody 24 hours a day?

But it really does. Again, if you’re going to say that part of your approach is, let’s say culture, you have to argue for it from a point where it would, where it actually translates into something that the audience your client would see and agree is necessary for getting the outcome that they’re looking for. Yeah. So we’re going to take a break.

But I want to circle back to something you said early on in our conversation around the fact that we often use pain as the motivator for change, because I think we do think like, what is the client’s pain? You know, what it what keeps you up at night? Which, by the way, is my one of my least favorite sentences.

But, you know, asking questions like that, yeah. We think gets us to a good sales conversation. So let’s take a quick break and then come back and talk about why that doesn’t actually work. Hey everybody, just want to remind you, before we get back to the show that we have a very engaged Facebook group. It’s a private group just for podcast listeners and agency owners that are in the am I community.

And to find it, if you’re not a member, head over to facebook.com, slash groups, slash b a b a podcast. So again, facebook.com, slash groups, slash baby podcast. All you have to do is answer a few questions to make sure that you are an actual agency on our leader, and we will let you write in. And you can join over 1700 other agency owners and leaders.

And I’m telling you, there’s probably 10 or 15 conversations that are started every day that are going to be a value to you. So come join us. All right. We are back with Tamsen Webster, and we’re talking about her new book, Say What They Can’t Unhear The Nine Principles of Lasting Change, which you guys are going to love.

It is easily digestible. It is immediately actionable, and you will sadly recognize yourself in many of the examples of what not to do in your efforts to get people to do what you want them to do. So you’re going to find it very valuable, I promise you. It’s a quick read, a great read. You’re going to take notes on it and you’re going to be talking to your team about it.

But before you go buy the book, you need to finish listening to that. So, Tamsen, before we took a break, we talked about the motivation of pain and why that maybe isn’t the powerful thing that we think it is. So can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah. Well, first let me talk about why why it does make sense.

Because it’s it’s not totally wrong to pay attention to a client’s pain point because it is what they’re experiencing right now. It is it is what is keeping them open to doing something different. And so where pain can be useful is, you know, where I see its best point of view, or we know where it’s best used is as a point of validation, where you can build rapport for the client, when you can come in and say, listen, you know, based on our work with folks like you, we, you know, we often see that you’re experiencing this issue and it’s having these effects for you.

And that’s frustrating, etc., etc., etc. that allows you to show that you know their situation, that you’ve dealt with these things before, that, that you can really speak to that. And so to me, identifying with someone’s pain is important for building rapport, leveraging pain, however, and particularly pain. You’ve introduced is unfortunately more often than not going to work against you in the long term.

That’s what I’ve seen, because here’s why we humans are not wired to withstand pain for any length of time. I mean, I give the example in the book, it’s, you know, it’s a it’s a fairly trite one. But, you know, how did you learn not to touch a hot stove by touching it and you moved. You took action because it hurt.

Right? But you wouldn’t have kept your hand on it, nor would you keep going back and putting your hand on it again. Be like, give me more of that. Right? And it’s a little bit what we were talking about, you know, before, which is there should be any other place where we’re, you know, any other area of our lives or trying to get someone to do something or learn something or feel something long term.

Where we start from a point of saying you did it wrong, you’re not smart, you’re not capable, you’re not a good. The folks that you’re dealing with now are the wrong people. Therapists don’t do that to educators if they’re good ones don’t do that, you know? So and the reason why it can be so damaging is not only are we not wired for it, but I mean, again, to get to the neuroscience of it, it hundred percent works against you if somebody’s in pain.

Again, as I was saying before, they’re they’re in this anxious part of their brain. They’re being very, very driven by by the amygdala of their brain. And what we know, science, not opinion, is that when someone is operating from that anxious state, they are they may act. And I even say in the book, pain is the ally of quick action, but it’s the enemy of long term change because we don’t stay in that state, we don’t stay in an anxious state.

We will find those quieter moments that when we calm down and if we really start thinking about what we’ve done right, sometimes, you know, any of us who’ve ever, like, watched it infomercial to the end and been like, yes, I’m gonna do this. Because if I don’t, I’m gonna totally miss out. And then that thing comes in the mail.

You’re like, what was I thinking, right? Why did why did I need these copper coated pans? That’s right. I didn’t. And that’s the thing. And so I think that the business world, you know, I’m not going to get into a rant about how the business world is structured, but a lot of times where you’ve been so focused on the short term action, the short term result that we have operated with pain, they get that short term action, that short term result.

But again, we’ve ignored the fact in the long term, we’re actually the person suffering from the most pain or the organization suffering. The most pain is us, right? When we’re facing, you know, client churn, when we are facing a back out or they ghost you or, you know, they get buyer’s remorse or they, they start agency shopping on a regular basis.

It’s because something about how you’re doing what you’re doing, not just what you’re doing, but there’s something about how you’re doing what you’re doing that just isn’t aligning with how they believe business should work, or how they want to be seen, and how they want to feel about themselves. And I know that sounds a little woo, but fundamentally that’s part of the pain piece.

If it if it doesn’t, something doesn’t align with our own self-concept. We won’t continue to do it long term either. Yeah. So as you’re talking, and as I was reading the book, I was thinking about this concept of short term quick decisions versus that long term sort of committed decision. And for agencies, you know, one of the challenges is it’s expensive to keep taking new clients on and not have them stick around.

You know, that first year is oftentimes, you know, net neutral at best because you’re ramping up and you’re giving them lots of extra service and you’re spending more time getting to know them or their industry or their business. And the profit starts coming to us much more in a much bigger volume in year two or 3 or 4.

And so even if somebody feels like they can get somebody to say yes and sign a contract, if they’re looking at the history of their agency and they’re seeing, boy, we have a lot of 12, 18 months kind of churn. You know, I’m thinking about a particular agency owner who I get a text from every, you know, once a week I made a big sale, blah, blah, blah.

And then the next week, I get a dang it client, you know, just left us after six months. And I think that constant pain that he’s in is because he’s really good at selling that quick. Yes, but what he hasn’t mastered yet is the ability to sell the committed. Yes. That really the change decision. Right. So so what you’re saying really resonates with our world in particular because of the high cost of that initial sale.

Oh, absolutely. And I think, you know, I think that’s one of the, you know, of the various things that I hope people can hear about the book. I think really hearing that difference between action and change and what are you really going for is, is, is can be transformational to how you approach things. Because the first, the very first principle on the book is that that change isn’t just an action, it’s a reaction.

And I mean reaction in at least two ways. First and foremost, it’s a reaction to what you’re saying, how you’re saying it, etc. meaning like that decision to to do something long term is very much informed, particularly when you’re the source of that new information with how, you know, the biggest source of information about that change is you.

So if they don’t trust you, if they don’t like you, if they don’t like how they feel from what you’re saying to them and how, then they’re not going to do it. But the other thing that’s hiding in that reaction is put a hyphen between re and action. Change is repeated action. In order for someone to change, they have to act and act and act and act and act.

And if you think just even about yourself, about what it takes for you to continue to do something, what are the things that are the easiest things for for you to do? The things that feel easy, the things that feel right, that you can see results from, that you believe? Intuitive either because it just makes sense to you, or because you’ve seen that that delivers on those actions.

And so that’s the frame of mind that that I hope people will, will start to take into account, which is we’re not just trying to get them to act, we’re trying to get them to keep acting. Yeah. What needs to be in place in order for that to happen, in order for them to act and act and act not out of your effort.

I’m trying to save people effort, but because they believe that that action is the right one, that we’re trying to get this internally motivated kind of recursive loop on this, where they’re just doing it again and again and again because it again, it feels right to them. That’s what’s really important. Well, and as I’m and as I’m listening to you, I’m also thinking that in most cases, whoever we’re talking to and we’re selling to has to explain their decision to someone else, right?

The C-suite, a business owner, a board of directors, or whatever. And so if they can’t. So, again, kind of the infomercial, they hear our pitch, they agree with us. But when they have to go and explain that they bought the copper covered pens, they better be able to explain why those pens do all the things that they needed them to do.

Otherwise they’re going to. That’s why they ghost is because I think they feel stuck between. They’ve told you, yes, but they have to tell that explain to somebody else. So now they they don’t know how to do that. They can’t. We haven’t, we haven’t supplied a story that they can tell by themselves to somebody else that makes as much sense to somebody else.

When they are. They aren’t. They don’t have that opportunity of having a whole presentation to get their CEO or whoever it is, making the purchase decision to get all keyed up about, oh my gosh, you’re right, you’re right, you’re right. Right. Because generally, wherever you’re going into the organization, like the next person you have to talk to has a different set of pain points.

And so we need to be able to supply, again, some kind of argument for this shift that it is as best as we can make it as fairly failsafe or as inarguable to kind of anyone as possible. And so that’s where I find that get it actually is about shortening what we present, and it’s about getting to the heart of what we present a lot faster, you know, and I, you know, I see it get it’s part of my bias.

But you know, I know just even think about how and a lot of agencies we present, you know new work. Where do we start. We start with what was the ask and then where do we go? We go into all the strategy and all the methodology and what did we do? And meanwhile, what is the client really doing?

What is the client really waiting for the client? It’s really just waiting for you to show whatever the creative is, right, right, right. And do and do we really think that anything that you’ve said prior to the creative being shown that is going to sit in their rational mind and say, well, let me continue to apply this rational lens to the creative that you’ve just shown me when they’re going to have an immediate, visceral response to the creative right.

And there is not the I’m going to suggest, because I’ve never seen it. I’ve never seen that any amount of explanation beforehand has been able to rescue creative that a client just doesn’t like. Right. So part of me is like this is also part of it, which is why do we do it like it’s it’s it’s exhausting for you.

It’s exhausting for the client. Like if we present the thing in that we truly believe it, right? Then you get the clients immediate response, and then you can argue for why you believe it’s the right. Here’s why we did this. Because remember, the strategy was this or the input was that, or you asked us to solve this. Here’s why we think this will solve you.

Right. All right. Let’s talk about it. Yeah. And and or at the very least, make it really, really quick. Right, right. So if you’re basically saying so you said that you wanted to do this, you really wanted to stand up out in the marketplace in this way. Well, based on, you know, our relationship or what we found out about you, if it’s biz dev conversation, we believe that two things are really key to that.

Again, number one, let’s say, I don’t know, space making space and around people number two piece. Right. So what we need people to do is slow down and make space for something else. I’m coming up with this top of my head. So and I’m not a it works. It works. But but you’re saying and we say and we need space because.

Right. If if you know the the more space you have, the fewer things you have to focus on, the better you can see. And we believe that space needs to be part of this because the slower you’re moving again, the better you can slow, you know, take in understand process information. So with those two things in mind, let us show you how we we put the brought those two things to life.

Don’t make them sit through the methodology. Tell them what your argument is to start with. But yeah again quick way. So they agree in principle and then they get to see how you applied that. But a lot of times we’ve buried that really powerful argument because you wouldn’t be presenting this creative unless you actually believed in it. You wouldn’t be presenting the strategy unless you actually believed in it.

But we do all this other stuff that actually signals to the audience that we don’t believe in it. We’re putting all this evidence out there that says, okay, please, please, please, please, you’re trying to sell me, right? Right. Instead of just saying, here’s what we believe, here’s how we’re showing it, okay. What do you think? And then use that as a basis for interaction.

Right. Let them tell you where they want to go next. But that’s all part of this whole idea about, you know, again, every decision has a story. That’s the second principle. If they don’t like the creative, there is no way that they’re going to be able to sell it to somebody else. Right. First up. Right. And let’s say they like it, but they’re not sure that their boss is going to like it.

Well, they need the language, the quick, powerful, to the point language about why this is the right thing and not just because it’s new, it’s different from what we’re doing now. How is it different? Why is that shift in attention that shifted focus aligned with how that CEO actually believes progress happened? It’s like that’s what we need to get to and we have to get to the heart of, yeah, yeah, it’s just so applicable to our world for sure.

So we could obviously we could keep talking about the book for a long time. But last question for you. How do you think how do you think people should read the book. Like how how if you were consuming it and you’re an agency owner, how would you consume it? And and then how would you sort of process it to, to make it actionable?

Yes. Okay. So I wrote the book so that you could pick it up and read any principle in any order. And as you know from having read it and have thought about how it applies elsewhere, you know, there’s enough reference back to other places that hopefully you’re like, okay, this makes sense. And then where else does it go from there?

The, the, the, the strongest case that it lays out is obviously I would hope front to back. Right. But right. It is really like you kind of pick up and read the one that I think speaks to you the most. First I my interest is that you read the book. So I would say a flip to that table of contents, look at those nine principles and start with the one that either you’re most curious about or the one that makes you mad, or the one that just sounds most resonating for you, and then see where else you go from there.

Because I am of the belief that we will, that we answer, that we’re most interested in the thing that we’re most curious about and read. What is the of used to you. And so I wrote it so that if you’re not sure, it will all build on each other, you’ll see how they all interact that the first three are really about.

How do people come to this decision? And for a long term change, the next three are really about how to avoid some of the biggest pitfalls that we fall into as folks trying to, you know, inspire or create the conditions for change. And then the last three really speak to very specifically, what’s your role? Well, what are some of the specific things that you need to keep in mind when you’re this person that you’ve got to do if you’re trying to create this change or not do, if you’re trying to create the change.

So I’d really say, you know, in whatever order is there interest in their curiosity? It takes them now to apply it. So there’s one kind of universal tool that everyone can benefit from. So if they go to the compact Cars.com, they will get to a very short five blank Madlib to put together one of those. Introductory. This is why we’re about to present this thing to you, because we believe this is true and this is true.

This is why we’re going to present to you a strategy that reflects this new approach. But you and I also work together on a well, you wrote it. So thank you. I wrote the book and then you wrote this e-book on how it applies to agency. So we will include the specific link to that in the show notes.

I know, but I will you should tell people about what you wrote about. Yeah. So that was fun. So Tamsen invited me to be an early reader of the book, which was awesome, but be to think about how you all can approach the book and then see specifically how each principle might apply. And I tried to look at it from a couple perspectives.

I try to look at it from a sales perspective, try to look at it from an internal team perspective. So I tried to lay out some ways that you could take each principle and think about it. And I kind of did it. As you’re doing this in most cases, stop doing that, do this instead kind of a model.

It was like in a lot of cases, agencies based on this principle, a lot of agencies approach it this way, but based on what Tamsyn wrote and the principle, really, maybe you should play with doing it this way. And so I think that if you read the book, I would recommend you read the book. And I honestly, I would read it from start to end.

You can cherry pick it if you want to, but I think the story builds on itself and you kind of each understanding layers on top of the other. At least that’s how it was for me. So I felt much that’s how I designed it. So yes, I felt much better informed and like I was making like I was connecting the dots faster as I went through the book.

So I think if you want to really absorb all of it and you want to connect as many dots as you can, then I would start at the at page one and go all the way to the end. But then after you’ve read it, then go to the e-book and look at each principle. And maybe there are some that resonated more with you, or you’re like, totally guilty of that one.

Then you could go to the prescriptive advice of the e-book and see if that aligns with maybe what would be helpful to you. So that’s how I would recommend kind of layering the e-book in after you’ve read the whole book. So for what it’s worth, and I’m so delighted. Thank you so much for doing that. Because, you know, I again, I you as we’ve talked about, I spent ten years in agency environments.

And so, you know, while I didn’t write it specifically for agencies, that a lot of those challenges were very much in my mind and yeah, so when I thought about, well, who can really translate this for the audience? Like obviously obviously it’s true. So thank you so much for Do It. Yeah, it was fun to do. So I’m glad.

I was glad to do it. So okay. People want to buy the book. They want to learn more about the work you’re doing. If they want to become part of your community that’s talking about this work, what’s the best way for them to do all of that? The best way. So the for the book, I think the best place to go was little change.

Booking.com. So in case you don’t remember the name, most people remember that it’s a it’s a tiny little book. So it’s this cute little thing so little change Booking.com and that’ll take you everywhere else. But my my home these days is very much it. Taking a page from your book I drew, I have founded the Message Design institute.com.

So message design institute.com. Yes, very very influenced by you. So that’s where really trying to corral and create a self-directed learning community around and mastering the art and science of persuasive message design to really democratize this so that individuals, organizations, agencies can start to build this as a I mean, agencies are already great at this, but but really thinking about this new approach and how to incorporate this new approach into the work, the great work that they’re already doing well on to to understand the methodology behind it so they can use the methodology to help their clients understand why they’re recommending that.

So it’s not just how do we get clients or prospects to do things, but how do we use the methodology, the principles to help clients understand why our work will create change, which is what we’re hired to do? I think there’s I think there’s lots of room for you to use these principles, not just in your selling, but just in how you serve clients and how you how you communicate internally to.

So I love that. Yes. Because I as I like to say, I like I believe that I am here on this earth to help people, help other people create transformational change. And that’s really what I want. The Message Design Institute to do is to be able to provide the, the, the art and the science of of what it takes to to do this.

And you’ve you’ve hit the nail right on the head that what we often skip over is really making the case for why this will work. Not that it does work or whatever, or that it will have these outcomes, but to be able to, you know, get to a point where they’re like, oh, that makes sense. And it’s not just head sense, it’s heart sense, if that makes sense to it, have sense based on what they already know to be true.

And, you know, sometimes people are like, well, how can we end up with something new there? And I’m like, just about everything new actually is a combination, a new combination of familiar things. So that’s really what we’re trying to, to get to is to make even the newest things feel familiar and feel like an an extension of who your client sees themselves to be and what they want to achieve in the world.

Yep. Exactly. This has been awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your expertise with us again. It’s been great to have you back. Oh my pleasure. Thank you for sharing your expertise. I’m delighted that folks are going to be able to benefit from your perspective on this too. Yeah, it was fun. All right, guys, this wraps up another episode.

I’m telling you, go order the book. It is by the time this airs, it will be either available for preorder or is already available at all your favorite bookstores, online, offline. All the places I know Amazon has recorded an audio version, so if you’re an audio book listener, you can grab it there as well. This is this is a not to be missed book for you.

Given what we do for a living in all of the ways that we have to be persuasive to get our team to do what we want them to do, to get our clients to do what we want them to do, to get prospects to decide that we’re the right choice for them every day we try and affect change.

And if you can do it better, even if you can do a better 5% better, imagine what that does to your AGI and your bottom line to your employee retention, your client retention. There’s just nothing but good outcome for me in this book. So go grab the book, then download the e-book and hopefully that’ll be helpful to you too.

But this is that this is your action item from this episode. Go by and read. Don’t put it in the pile. Don’t put it on the bookshelf. You’ve read the book like Amazon’s said, it’s not super long. It’s not a Warren Peace kind of book. So buy it and read it and then airplane book it is an airplane book.

That’s right, I did you like shorter than a. Yes. Exactly. So it should take three hours or less to. Yeah. So yeah. So absolutely read it. So all right with that that quick thanks to our friends at White Label IQ. As you know they’re the presenting sponsor of the podcast. We are super grateful for them. If you’re looking for a team who can help you white label design, dev or PPC, they have an entire team of people who can come alongside your internal team.

If you have an internal team or if that’s something you don’t want to have inside your shop and you just want to have a reliable partner, these guys are these guys are your go to so white label iq.com/emi. So you can learn a little bit about what they have for you as a podcast listener. These guys are born out of an agency so they understand how to partner with agencies because they are the sister company of an army agency.

So check them out. And last but certainly not least, I am super grateful that you were here with us today. I’m really glad you heard this message, but I’m glad you’re come. You come back every week because otherwise I’m talking to myself and that’s nowhere near as much fun. And I think it makes my wife think that maybe I’m going insane.

So very glad you’re here. Grateful. I know how busy you guys are, so that you carve out 45 minutes or an hour to hang out with me and a guest every week is really a privilege and I do not take it for granted. So thanks for being here with us this week. Please come back next week. I’ll see you then.

All right. Thanks for listening. That’s all for this episode of Amis Build Better Agency podcast. Be sure to visit Agency Management institute.com to learn more about our workshops, online courses, and other ways we serve small to mid-sized agencies. Don’t forget to subscribe today so you don’t miss an episode!