The Art of Transformative Leadership with Suzanna de Baca

Drew McLellan:

Hey everybody. Drew Mclellan here with another episode of Build a Better Agency. Welcome back. Glad to have you. You know, we seem to be on sort of a run of talking about leadership and there’s a reason for that. As we enter into the new year and as we think about all of these lofty goals we’ve set, especially if you’ve had a frustrating or a struggling 23 and 24 and really want to break out this year, start us. It absolutely starts with us and how we show up as leaders. And so that’s one of the reasons why I invited today’s guest to be on the show. She is a subject matter expert that I think you’re going to really enjoy. So Suzanna de Baca is at a very interesting sort of career path. She has been a leader in many industries, she and I, and we’ll tell you that story in a minute once we welcome her to the show. She and I have known each other professionally and personally for about 10 years or so, and I have, I’ve experienced her as a leader and she’s inspiring in the way that she gets the best work out of everybody. And so as she takes on a new role, teaching leadership at the MBA level at Iowa State University and starts her own coaching and consulting practice for leaders, seemed like the perfect time to welcome her to the show and for us to learn from her. So without further ado, I would love to introduce you to Suzanna. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having us with you and giving us some of your time. I appreciate it this morning.

Suzanna de Baca:

It’s great to see you again.

Drew McLellan:

Drew, tell everybody a little bit about sort of your career path and how you find yourself in the role that you’re in today.

Suzanna de Baca:

Well, I’ve had an interesting career journey. I’m a farm kid from Iowa, started out as an art major, completely derailed and ended up getting an MBA from Harvard Business School. That’s a whole nother story. And then I spent almost three decades on Wall street managing money and private client businesses. So working with wealthy individuals, many of them business owners, and helping them with their, their assets from there I retired from that business and went to work for several years running a multi state Planned Parenthood affiliate. So moving into a different leadership role around a mission that was important to me. Then I did a merger of that company and was hired to run a publishing company, which I’ve done for the last six years as CEO. So my career thread is that I’ve been a leader in a lot of different types of industries, sizes of businesses and sectors. And that’s really given me, I think, a lot of insight into the things that leaders need to be successful. And here I am in this next chapter of my life, being a professor, coaching, serving on boards, and really trying to use my expertise to help others be better leaders.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. So listeners, just to give you a little context, Suzanna and I have known each other for, gosh, probably about a decade now. As many of you know, as part of my role as an agency owner, prior to owning Agency Management Institute, I wrote a weekly column for Iowa’s business journal for over 20 years. And the publishing company that Suzannana then led for the last many years, she came into that role. I was already there as a columnist. And so in essence, she was kind of my boss for about six or seven years. And so we got to collaborate on some other projects as well, which was, which was great fun. So we’ve known each other professionally and personally for, for about a decade now, I think.

Suzanna de Baca:

Well, I can tell you that Drew needed no management. He was a model employee. And the insights that Drew provided just week after week around leadership, they were so they were applicable beyond an agency. Really good for any leader. So you’re lucky to have him in your life.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, thank you, that’s kind. It was fun. But I’ll tell you, that weekly deadline, boy, that, that is a discipline you get used to for sure. It was great fun while I did it. So let’s talk a little bit about, you know, you have been in a leadership role, working with other leaders, observing what works and what doesn’t work for, you know, several decades. So do you think leadership has changed? And if so, how. How are today’s leaders different? Or how do they need to be different than early in your career?

Suzanna de Baca:

I’ve actually seen, I think, a very profound shift in leadership over the last, well, I don’t even want to say how many years, but it has to do with the rate and pace of change, especially in the last 20 years and then even more accelerated, I would say, in the last six years. And that is because of a number of different factors. There’s been more Uncertainty, the adoption of technology, and now in the last couple of years, with much more digitization and AI, but also globalization, you name it, things are happening faster. So leaders not only have to work in their business as agency owners do, but they’re constantly having to reevaluate the strategy and direction and it almost has a crisis like dynamic to it. And that is the new normal every day. So that’s the new normal. And learning how to manage that disruption and get used to it and maybe even leverage it to me is one of the skills of the leader of the future.

Drew McLellan:

So as you look out overall, the leaders you know and the folks that you’re coaching and you know, certainly in your role at bpc, you are bumping into and interacting and observing leaders of all size organizations every day. What are the skills or the characteristics or the traits of the leaders who are successful at sort of acknowledging and wrapping their arms around this sort of crisis level daily change versus the ones that struggle with it. So how do we get good at it? First of all, we as human beings, I don’t believe, love change, period. Two, we certainly don’t love it in our own business when it affects our family and our wallet and the wallets of all the people that we employ. Two and then three, this pace of it is jarring. So as you think about leaders who have gracefully adapted to, to your point, leveraging this speed of change, what are they doing differently?

Suzanna de Baca:

I think the biggest difference to me between when I was getting my mba, we were taught hard skills, how to read a financial statement, how to think about operations, and you know, my classmates kind of scoffed at my love of organizational behavior. But our professors even then said someday you guys are all going to think back and this class and communications will be the most important. No, everybody was focused on the numbers.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Suzanna de Baca:

Today leaders have to have a combination of those classic, you know, always important technical skills, but now equally important are EQ or soft skills. So it’s the ability to think strategically, to adapt, to connect with your workforce, to build relationships, to listen, to have empathy. Those things are what is really defining an agile leader and are critical. And many of us did not study those things in school. We were studying our either how to be a leader, how to be a manager, or about our field.

Drew McLellan:

Right. Well, and that’s an interesting distinction, the idea of manager versus leader because I think a lot of times those, those roles get blended and people think if I’m a good manager of the work and the people, I’m a leader. So define for me what you think the distinction is between a manager, which every leader has to be good at, and a true leader. Like when you think about somebody that you’re like, that person is a leader, what do they do different than somebody who is a skilled manager?

Suzanna de Baca:

I think a manager can be a leader and they are, you know, they’re circular. But a leader really is the person who needs to set the vision and inspire and organize the team to carry out that vision. And that requires those skills I talked about, which are influence, clear communication, the ability to rally the team. A good manager then hopefully takes that vision, but their job is to execute it and to interact, not necessarily set the vision. Now the manager needs to know how to explain why the vision is important, the purpose.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Suzanna de Baca:

When you think about branding and marketing, these are concepts you talk about all the time.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Suzanna de Baca:

But are you doing it in your business as the leader?

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, I think it’s interesting. I think it’s easy, particularly in our world. You know, most agency owners are accidental business owners. They don’t have an MBA to run their business. They were good at the craft of something in an agency and somehow ended up owning an agency. And a lot of times they got let. You know, there’s always downsizing in agencies. So a lot of times they got let go or they left and they decided to hang up a shingle in many cases while they looked for another job. And next thing they know, they have three to five employees or 10 employees, and they’re like, oh crap, I’m running a business. So I think it’s easy when you come up through the ranks to think about the tasks of leadership, which are really the tasks of management, because those are things I can put on my to do list and I can check it off. And you know, most agency owners are white type A. And so we love to check things off a list that makes us feel accomplished. Whereas I think the skills of a true leader aren’t quite that easily defined and put on a to do list. So how does someone, if someone’s a great manager of their, of their agency and they want to be a better leader, what are some questions they can ask themselves to kind of self assess, am I truly leading this organization? And what are some clues they can see inside their organization to go, yep, I’m leading, not just managing, because I think that’s a really interesting distinction.

Suzanna de Baca:

Yeah, it’s a fascinating thing to think. How do you actually start thinking about what it means to be a leader?

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Suzanna de Baca:

And the thing that I’ve found most interesting in teach I’m teaching an MBA class on leadership right now and the first question I asked them was, who was a leader that you admired, who had an influence on your life? And interestingly, I even did the quantitative analysis. Almost 30% of them said a parent, a relative, you know, somebody early in their life, then coaches, teachers, you know, it wasn’t necessarily their boss. So leadership, you know, at its core is about someone who sees potential in you and helps develop it and helps to, to really help you realize your goals. Your job as a leader is to have the vision for the business. But as far as your followers, let’s call them, are concerned, it’s, it’s about how you are leading them.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Suzanna de Baca:

Question one is, who is somebody that you admired and why? What were their characteristics? The second question is, who’s a leader? You had who you didn’t admire? Let me tell you, when I asked my students that question, they had no problem coming up with a lot of examples. And often it was not about the leader, didn’t get results. It was the relationship that they had with that person. They were not valued, they didn’t have clear communication. Things were disorganized, chaotic. Right. So probably the same things you’ve had when you’ve had bad leaders.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Suzanna de Baca:

But I think the question you can also ask yourself is, are people following me enthusiastically? That will be your. I think one of your biggest tests about whether you’re an effective leader is everyone lining up because they’re excited about what you’re doing, even if there’s adversity involved? You can tell those things by employee engagement, by turnover, but also just listening and interaction.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. One of the things I love to do when we go into agencies is, you know, I’ll say to an agency owner, if I walked out the door, literally or figuratively in today’s work environment, and I asked, I randomly asked five of your employees, where is this agency going and why are you headed in that direction? Would they all give me the same answer or would they even have an answer? And you know, I will tell you, at least 50% of the time, the owner will sheepishly admit, hey, I don’t think they would give you the same answer. And I think a lot of times they would say, I’m not sure. And to me, that’s one of the litmus tests of am I really leading this organization? Because one of the things we recognize in agency employees, especially agency employees under 35, is they don’t just want a job, they want a mission driven job. And I don’t mean that in a nonprofit, you know, feed the world kind of way. But they want to know why their agency exists, what is our purpose, and what’s my role in getting us to whatever that purpose is. And I’m not sure a lot of agency leaders understand how important it is to articulate and re. Articulate and re articulate. Here’s where we’re going, and here’s why we’re going there. Here’s why this is important. And sort of, to your point, a rallying cry of, come on, you guys, line up and let’s get this done. Let’s get there for the people that we serve for these reasons. So how do you think a leader effectively communicates that bigger vision? Let’s assume they have one. Even if it’s in their own head and heart, that they have something in it. And by the way, listeners, it cannot just be about making money. That is not why somebody wants to work for you. Because, A, number one, that every employee thinks they’re underpaid and they think you’re making all the money, which we all know is not the way that works. But B, it has to be bigger than that. It has to feel weightier than that. So let’s assume that they have a vision, and here’s our rallying cry and why we’re going there. How have you observed or how do you coach or how do you teach leaders that are under your tutelage to inspire their team to know what that is, to believe in it and to your point, to follow it?

Suzanna de Baca:

Well, assuming that there is a vision and we can pin in that and come back, getting it out of your head and communicating it to your team as well as your other constituents, your stakeholders, requires exactly what you do with your clients is somehow touching their heart and getting to the root of why they should care. So I can sit in front of my team and tell them, you know, we’re in my former business, right? We’re. We’re providing business news to business people. Right. Is that motivating to them? Maybe. But if I can say you are helping business people make decisions that ultimately will help, you know, our community get stronger or will allow our workforce here, you know, to have continued employment, that’s moms feeding their kids, whatever it is. Right, right, right. That feels like something I want to get up, you know, during a blizzard and doing my work because I know it matters. So first of all, the why has to be emotionally resonant, but then you have to communicate it as true. Said what I mean, I’ve read at least 21 times or, you know, in order for a message to get through. And in a surround sound approach is what I call it. I’ve worked in media for a long time, and it’s more complicated now. You need to be able to engage every sense that your team has. You need to give them information verbally, you need to give it to them orally, you need to give it to them graphically. Right. And it needs to be embedded and consistent in every single thing you do. Because then if you are telling people your vision and your mission, but you’re acting differently. 30 seconds. And they call BS, right.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Suzanna de Baca:

So be clear. Engage the heart, surround sound approach, and then walk the walk.

Drew McLellan:

Basically, no small task.

Suzanna de Baca:

No, it’s huge.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Suzanna de Baca:

Intentionality. Most people are not genius enough to just have that flow out of them without any work or plan.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah, for sure. I want to talk more about this, but let’s first take a quick break, and then we’ll come back and we’ll talk about that intentionality and also sort of the idea of the repetition of it. So we’ll be right back, and we’re going to continue to talk about how we show up as the leaders we are meant to be. Hey, everybody. Just want to remind you before we get back to the show that we have a very engaged Facebook group. It’s a private group just for podcast listeners and agency owners that are in the AMI community. And to find it, if you’re not a member, head over to facebook.comgroups/b a b a podcast. So again, facebook.comgroups/bab podcast. All you have to do is answer a few questions to make sure that you are an actual agency owner or leader. And we will let you right in. And you can join over 1700 other agency owners and leaders. And I’m telling you, there’s probably 10 or 15 conversations that are started every day that are going to be of value to you. So come join us. All right, we are back, and we’re talking about leadership. And we. Before the break, we were talking about sort of what does it mean to clearly share a vision and then inspire everyone to make choices every day? Because this is. At the end of the day, this is why this matters, is if you have a clear vision about why the agency exists and who you serve and why that matters, why your work matters, why their clients work matters, why. Why what you do is important. I mean, let’s face it, we’re not saving lives. So how do we inspire our team to show up and bring 110% every day. The art of that is you have to keep doing it. It’s not a one and done. And so, Suzannana, how do we keep it fresh? How do we. I find. And we find this, you know, in the branding and marketing world as well. You know, about the time your audience feels like they’re hearing it for the first time. The speaker of the message, typically the brand is like, I am so sick of this tagline or so sick of this message. And it’s barely taking root. So how do we as leaders find the art of repetition in a way that is palatable and interesting to the team? Inspiring. Because we want every choice an employee makes to take us closer to the vision, because every choice either wins or loses. Audience, money, productivity, whatever it is. So as a great leader, you were talking before the break about sort of, I think of it as channels. It is, as you said, surround sound. So it’s multi channeled messaging. How do we do that for a decade? How do we do that for 25 years? How do we. How do we keep that fresh but also keep it constant and consistent enough that our people really can’t avoid knowing it and understanding it?

Suzanna de Baca:

Well, I would say I had never really thought of it this way, but the delivery mechanism or the vision is ultimately your culture and you use communication to create that. So it isn’t just about the message that you’re pushing out, but the feeling that people have in your organization and how that vision gets embedded into every day. So examples might be your company newsletter, not just stating the vision, but having examples of the vision or the mission of how it’s come to life with your clients, your team meetings where you’re talking about how that vision comes to life. Your performance review format should be around those kinds of actions and values that lead up to the vision. So everything should flow from there. So your culture is ultimately about your vision and your mission, right?

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Suzanna de Baca:

So then communicating it over and over is a two way street. And that’s what I would suggest. How do you keep it fresh? Right. Your North Star should be the same, right? At the end of the day, why you exist, for the most part should be static. How you’re delivering it is what changes. And there you can be listening to your employees, actively engaging them about what’s working or what’s not working and adjusting some of the more of the how. Right. And who knows, like even with a pandemic or something, your why may change slightly or your focus may change. Right. So be intentional, but then refresh it at least every three Years, but embed it in your business so that it just feels like people are experiencing you delivering that vision versus you telling them. No one wants to be told. People want to feel like they’re part of something.

Drew McLellan:

Well, and as you’re talking, I’m thinking one of the questions, and I’m thinking about it, even in our own organization, one of the things that we probably can be better at, and I suspect this is true for a lot of people listening, is how do I make it more of a dialogue than a monologue? So if it’s truly a shared vision, so is it ultimately Danielle’s and my vision because we own the company. Yes, but we have to inspire our employees to embrace the vision as if it were their own. Otherwise it’s intellectual, but it’s not emotional. And we know that all buying decisions, if they’re going to stick, are emotional. So I’m just thinking in my head, like, how do you, how do you make that more of a dialogue? How do you, for example, have a peer recognition program that employees catch each other living out the vision of the company? How do you invite people to share how they’ve delivered against the vision this week, to your point, in a performance review, in a one on one meeting, in a team meeting? So it really is not only surround sound in all the ways you as a leader are communicating it, but it’s also surround sound in that it’s not only your voice.

Suzanna de Baca:

No, no. It. Even if you are ultimately the decision maker, Right. You’re leading an ecosystem and it gets back to the followership. Right. I don’t love the word follower, but in a lot of academic, you know, literature around leadership, they use leader and follow. Right. If you’re not engaging your followers and they’re not following you, really doesn’t matter what you think and do, you’re going to lose them. So you have to say, you know, hey, how is this route working for you? And you know, they’re down in the trenches. I’m using a lot of metaphors, but they might say, you know, Drew, this sounded like a good idea five years ago, but do you realize that, you know, technology is now making this process dumb and we should be doing it this way? And you’re like, oh, okay, perfect, right? So that two way street and really being open minded about understanding what the experience of your employees is, will help you. Now, you can still say no for whatever reason, of course, but input, input, input. Right. And continuous learning because it is an ever changing world. You cannot simply assume that what worked two years ago is even relevant today. That’s how fast things are changing.

Drew McLellan:

I know, it’s crazy. It’s crazy when as you’re talking, I’m thinking, you know, in most agencies, because agencies are small, can’t really afford to have a bunch of people who in air quotes, just follow what we really want. And in fact, one of the, one of the frustrations for many agency owners is how do I get my team members to be more proactive? How do I get them to be more self directed? How do I help them not be looking to me to tell them what to do every day or all day, But I want them to know innately this is the right thing to do. And as you’re talking, I’m thinking the trick is in leadership is creating leaders out of your followers so that they are in their area of expertise or in their departments or in their role. Again, from intern to somebody who’s been with you 20 years, everybody can, everyone can take a leadership attitude inside your organization. So that either works great or it’s chaos. So if everybody is confused about the purpose or the vision of the business, then everyone leading on their own simply means they’re all pulling in there in a direction well intended, but in a direction that they think is right, which may not be the direction you want them to pull, but when you have a clear shared vision and ways to articulate if you’re getting closer or further away from the vision, then when people step up in a leadership role, they’re pulling the wagon in the right direction as opposed to sort of creating an imposing force internally when there’s confusion. So I love the idea of ultimately our goal is to invite them to lead as alongside us, to bring the company in alignment with the vision.

Suzanna de Baca:

Yeah. And I think, you know, I’ve spent a lot of time in my career wondering and gnashing my teeth about why are these people not stepping up? Why are they not reading my mind? Right.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Suzanna de Baca:

Oh, because, yeah, I didn’t teach psychic 101. Right.

Drew McLellan:

Right.

Suzanna de Baca:

Just like you as a leader, may not have had leadership or management training, you probably hired people for their technical skills.

Drew McLellan:

Right, Right.

Suzanna de Baca:

I hired portfolio managers, I hired nurses, I hired journalists. I didn’t hire a lot of people who’d had any training on how to manage. Right. So if you look at an organization that excels in leadership development, it’s the military, not my path. However, they know and spend enormous amounts of time training people on the actual art of leading and managing.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Suzanna de Baca:

I had a wonderful interview with a brigadier general and he said, you know, corporate America does not do that because they feel like it’s hard to measure the roi. But the army trains and trains and trains and trains so that when something does happen to one leader, the other person can seamlessly come in. They’ve already done the job. They know how to do it.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Suzanna de Baca:

So probably unrealistic, you know, to invest the kind of resources the army does for national security, but for a business owner, I mean, I look at the amount of money or time that most businesses spend on leadership development, and it’s about that much right now. I don’t do leadership development, so I don’t have a, you know, a dog in this fight. You want your team to step up as leaders, give them some. Some tools. Think about carving out the time and space to help them understand not just your vision, but that the How.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Suzanna de Baca:

And some parameters around. I want you to do this, but this would be too far, right?

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. Well, and I think, even to your point, I think a lot of agency owners don’t have formal or informal training. I mean, really, most of our training around leadership is we’ve been surrounded by people who were good at it and people who weren’t good at it. And you. And, you know, I think all of us have the boss that is like, oh, if he would have done it that way, I know I need to do it this way because he was a terrible leader. I think that’s, you know, the. You, you know, eat this, not that kind of a thing. So even for ourselves, investing in developing our own chops around leadership, and I want to talk a little bit about the idea of. In today’s work environment, a lot of agency owners are, you know, 40 plus, and they hearken back to the pre Covid world of work, and they. They’re challenged by the new workforce and the new way we work and remote and hybrid and all of those things. But something you said earlier in the conversation, which is sort of that idea of how is my leadership connecting to my employees in a what’s in it for me? Message is human psychology. That’s not selfish. That’s not a kid versus a seasoned employee. Every one of us. I mean, nobody would come to the job if. Well, a few of us probably would, but nobody would come to the job if we didn’t make money, that it didn’t help us pay our mortgage and do our. Do the things that we need to do. So a big part of leadership is understanding how do I make it relevant and valuable and important for each employee. And by the way that’s not a cookie cutter solution. Right. So what motivates me to get up early and do something is different than what motivates you to get up early. And so I think the vulnerability about making those connections, which you mentioned earlier in the conversation, and really helping each employee understand how they can bring the organization closer to the vision and what’s in it for them when they do that. And I don’t necessarily mean salary and things like that. I’m talking like bigger, like for you as a human being, why does this vision matter to you and how do you want to contribute to it are probably conversations we’re not having as often as we should.

Suzanna de Baca:

Well, I think money is table stakes. You know, someone said to me in one job, oh, this person’s lucky to have have this job here. They don’t need a raise. And I’m like, well, when they leave, well, we’ll talk about that. Right? The lucky to have a job. In the pandemic, it became much more of an employee driven world. Now the market’s changing, but still people, especially the younger generations, have a lot of different options about how they work, where they work, why they work. They’re redefining a lot. So understanding and meeting them where they are, no different. You know, people in my generation, I know my elder said your generation, Suzannana’s lazy and has bad music. Right.

Drew McLellan:

I think everybody says that about the generation after them. Right.

Suzanna de Baca:

And we have the best music. I mean, come on, let’s just be clear.

Drew McLellan:

That’s right.

Suzanna de Baca:

So every generation is going to be different. That has not changed. How this has changed is, is just what we’re dealing with right now. But you might be asking yourself, I have 100, I have 50, I have two and whatever it is, employees, how do I connect with every single one of them? Yeah, you don’t have to connect with them sitting down, doing a one on one with each one of them. But somehow the communication has to touch them so that they know that what they are doing is recognized and that they are getting the benefits that are really most important to them. You know, a lot of, let’s just use child care or flexibility as an example. We know that’s important to the younger workforce. Now how may differ depending on the place, the agency, the person, but just like link to what’s important to them and then making sure instead of saying, well that’s stupid, no, that’s not going to work. You got to give them something that’s important and then tell them that you are doing, acknowledge that you are in fact hearing them. But I want to get back to one thing you said, and I think it’s important is no agency owners didn’t learn leadership. Everyone’s different. One very easy way to create some a dialogue or an interesting language is really to talk about leadership styles. And there are many, many different kinds of assessment tools. And that’s something that can be brought into a whole company. But people really do have different leadership styles because of their personalities. And so when you say, why is this person not stepping up? You know, their style may not be to be overt or dominant. They may be a behind the scenes person. And there may be somebody who, you know, is a steamroller and always steps up, but needs guidance on how to, you know, work with each other using some of those tools so that you can talk about style versus the person.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Suzanna de Baca:

So instead of saying Jimmy is mean, Jimmy may have a D personality on the disc. And you could use that for behavior and coaching. But also this language of a company. So that’s actually something I really encourage that it’s worked for me at all. I mean, the last 20 years, I’ve done lots of that leadership development and people use that language as a unifier. Everyone likes to hear about themselves.

Drew McLellan:

Right. Well, I was gonna say I think it’s important that we understand how we show up as a leader. Right. From, from the world’s perspective, not our own perspective. And then understanding how our leadership style meshes, matches conflicts with the folks on our team who may lead in different ways. But at the end of the day, kind of circling back to your point that without a true north, everybody’s leading in different directions and we’re not going to get the agency where they want to go. And the big takeaway for me in this conversation is we need to think about how we’re leading versus managing. And what are the messages our leadership is infusing through our organization? And is that intentional? You know, you used that word earlier. And if it’s unintentional, how do we course correct so that we are being really purposeful and thoughtful about the messages that we, that we weave through our organization as a leader? Because everyone is going to grab to your military example. Everyone’s going to grab onto what they think. Everyone wants to do a good job, they want to follow the leader. But if you’re not clear about what to grab onto, and this is, this is our true north, everyone’s going to grab onto what they think is the true north. And now you’ve got even more chaos in a world that is bringing us chaos and change, which is just sort of amplifying maybe the confusion or the frustration in today’s world of leadership.

Suzanna de Baca:

Yeah. When I, I would find myself as a leader, you know, sometimes wondering, why isn’t everyone doing X, Y and Z? And then I would think back to, you know, when I was 25 and, you know, the hours I spent at the bar near my office with my friends saying, well, we don’t even understand what we’re supposed to be doing. Like, why are we doing this? This merger is stupid or something. And like, okay, that’s what’s happening, Right? So how do you talk to that 25 year old or that 30 year old who’s probably going home? You want them to say, you know, we’re doing this exciting work and here’s why, and have it be clear. And then that knows, here’s what I’m doing in it and here’s how I make a difference. Right.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah.

Suzanna de Baca:

I was at a reunion and someone said, one of the speakers said, if you walk past a bar and all your employees are in there and they’re laughing and having a good time, he’s like, they’re laughing at you, they’re talking about you. Well, that’s a blessing and a curse, right? But at the end of the day, you want them to be saying things like, isn’t this awesome project we’re doing? I’m so excited and there’s gonna be problems. But that comes from that vision and that feeling of connection.

Drew McLellan:

Yeah. Yeah, you’re right. Gosh, I feel like we’ve just scratched the surface in this conversation and maybe that’s the underlying message. This is so important that we can talk about it for 45 minutes. And we just barely have scratched the surface of how important it is and how we do it. So we’ll have to continue the conversation. But for today, this has been great. And what I’m hoping is we’ve reminded everybody that this needs to be top of mind, this needs to be a priority. I can remember doing a time management course back when I was in my 20s. And you know, they do that grid and there’s that there’s the urgent box and then there’s the important box. And I think we, especially because of the pace of change, are so caught up in the urgent box. And this is one of those things that’s in the important box that doesn’t feel like it has a deadline. And in agencies, everything has a deadline. So we as leaders, if we truly are going to be leaders, not Managers have to make this a priority, even though it may not fall into the grid in the to do box list, the same way some of our urgent management tasks do. So I think that’s a great message to sort of wrap all of this conversation up with. So, Suzanne, if people want to learn more about your work, if they want to follow some of the writing that you do, I know you create a lot of content around leadership. I’m sure you’re talking about your course and your classes and all of that. What’s the best way for them to connect with you and to continue to learn from you?

Suzanna de Baca:

Right now, the best way for somebody to find me is on LinkedIn. Drew will give you the correct spelling of my name, and we will, due to all the other ways that you can find me.

Drew McLellan:

This has been great. Thank you very much. You know, I. I am grateful that we’ve had the professional and personal connection that we’ve had for so long, but this is a conversation we’ve never had before. So this was a fun new way for us to sort of explore our professional connection. So I’m super grateful for you being on the show today. Thank you.

Suzanna de Baca:

Thank you. Yes. We were always working on deadlines, and now we’re working picture, so.

Drew McLellan:

That’s right.

Suzanna de Baca:

Thank you and thanks, everyone for listening. It’s been wonderful to connect.

Drew McLellan:

You bet. All right, listeners, so here’s homework from this episode. I want you to think about how you show up as a leader versus a manager. And I want you to randomly pick three to five employees and say, why does our agency exist and how do we know if we’re headed in the right direction and see what they say and learn from what they say? And then, as Suzannana was talking about, start thinking about how do you create that surround sound sort of methodology of infusing your vision? And again, I’m assuming you have one if you don’t go back a step, but infusing your vision through the agency over and over and over again in a dialog that invites your employees to help you imagine, dream, build, evolve that vision while you’re still chasing it. So that’s your homework from this episode, and I would love to hear how it goes, what you learned, what you’re going to do to level that up. All right, before I let you go, you know the drill. I need to say thank you to our friends at White Label iq. They’re the presenting sponsor of the podcast. They come alongside agencies every day, and they provide White Label design, dev and ppc. So they’re born out of an agency. They understand how to work with agencies, how to wholesale their prices so that you make money. They understand how to make clients happy because that’s what they’ve been doing for 20 some years as an agency and also now as an agency partner. Lovely human beings. Head over to whitelabeliq.comami to learn more about them and a special offer they have for you as podcast listeners. And last but not least, super grateful for you. I love these conversations. I love exploring these ideas. I don’t get to do it if you don’t listen. So the fact that you keep coming back means I get to keep doing it and I get smarter with every conversation. And so I am grateful that you carve out some time to share with me and our guests every week. And I promise I’m going to keep coming back. I hope you will too. All right, see you next week. Thanks for listening.