Weaving values, missions, and goals into agency culture with Chad Kearns

Announcer:

Running an agency can be a lonely proposition, but it doesn’t have to be. We can learn how to be better, faster, if we learn together. Welcome to Agency Management Institute’s, Build a Better Agency Podcast presented by a White Label IQ. Tune in every week for insights on how small to mid-size agencies are surviving and thriving in today’s market. With 25 plus years of experience, as both an agency owner and agency consultant, please welcome your host, Drew McClellan.

Drew McClellan:

Hey everybody, Drew McClellan here from Agency Management Institute back this week with another episode of Build a Better Agency on a very important and hot topic. So more on that in a quick second. Just want to remind you, that next month we are offering a workshop that we offered, I think in 2022, and it got rave reviews, to the point that we knew we had to bring it back. No, maybe it was 2021, well, it does matter, in the last couple years, it was post-pandemic. We did it down in Florida and it’s called, Rethink Innovation. And the whole premise of the workshop is this, that we need, we absolutely need, the reason why agents or clients hire us is because they want big ideas from us. They want outside perspective, and they want big ideas. And we struggle sometimes to bring that to clients. In many cases, you, the agency owner or leader, are one of only a handful of people inside the shop who can just randomly and on-demand, come up with big, creative and strategic ideas.

And so Carla Johnson wrote a book called, Rethink Innovation, where she did research and she studied, what happens to our ability to be innovative? We’re all born as kids, being very innovative. I’ve talked about this before, but give a kid a couple cardboard boxes, a wooden spoon and some tape, and they can create an afternoon of activity and fun and imaginary worlds. But somewhere along the way, as we get older, even in our world, that ability to be innovative on-demand, and that’s the key. We can’t wait for the muses anymore, to be innovative on-demand becomes really critical. So Carla did this research, ended up writing a great book, but more importantly than that, for our purposes, out of the research came a framework, a way to reinvigorate every human being’s ability to be innovative. And so whether you’re trying to solve a problem internally, a process or system problem, a growth problem, or you’re trying to solve thorny problems for clients or prospects, Carla’s framework is a way for you to spread that workload and to get everybody’s brain power going towards big, big ideas on behalf of clients.

So that workshop is here in Denver, it’s July 11th and 12th. Highly recommended it. It’s 9:00 to 5:00 on the first day, 9:00 to 3:00 the second day, so you can fly out on Wednesday after we’re all done. But it is remarkable watching Carla teach this workshop, when we did it last time, was just mesmerizing. And the best thing is, you send one person or two people, they bring the framework, the deck, all the things back, and then you can teach it to everyone in your shop. Carla’s belief is, and I’ve seen it from the people who attended the workshop the first time, Carla’s belief is that every single person in your organization is capable of being innovative and coming up with the big idea, whether it’s your intern or your accountant or your account director or your creative director or your entry level art director, whoever it may be, everybody has the capability and the capacity to be innovative on-demand. You just need to know how to show it to them.

When I talk to you guys, a lot of times you’ll say, “I just know how to do it. I don’t know how to teach it.” That’s why this workshop is so powerful. Yes, you’ll learn how you do it, even if you don’t understand how it happens inside your brain, but more importantly, you’ll have a framework that you can teach your team so that you are not the one burdened or the bottleneck for big ideas. So July 11th and 12th here in Denver, go to the website, agencymanagementinstitute.com, under the How We Help tab, you’ll see, Workshops, and you can register there. Discount for your second and third person, of course, and as always, if you don’t like it, if it’s not valuable, if you think, “Ugh, I didn’t get my money’s worth.” We will refund your money in a heartbeat.

I’ve never had to do it, but we’re happy to offer it. So this is a no-risk situation for you. Denver is gorgeous in July, make a vacation out of it, but come out here and learn how to help your team think bigger and better on behalf of your clients. Okay? All right. Speaking of your team, today’s guest is going to be all about your team. So Chad Kearns used to own an agency, sold it, and now works for an organization that helps agencies and other businesses create culture and employee retention and all the things that we are worried about today. How do we attract the right talent? How do we keep the right talent? What matters to employees today? So Chad’s going to talk about all of that, both from his perspective of formerly being an agency owner and today now, as a consultant in this space. So let’s get to that conversation because I have a ton of questions for him. Chad, welcome to the podcast.

Chad Kearns:

Thanks, Drew.

Drew McClellan:

Hey, give everybody a little sense of your background and how you came to know all the things we’re about to talk about?

Chad Kearns:

Yeah, thanks for having me. I grew up in the agency or in the agency world. So I started at Portent, a small independent agency, back in 2012 is when I got my start there. I was still in college, I was still an undergrad when I started as an intern and started learning paid media at that time, learning how to buy ads on Facebook, running Google ads, starting to learn to work with clients, and just learning everything that went on in an agency, really for the first time. I got a really, really cool opportunity as my internship ended to build out a internal program, a program that had never been ran before at the agency, trying to work with and target small businesses. How do we go out and market to small businesses? How do we provide services on the paid media front for small businesses?

And grew a program there, ended up building out a team, which was really, really cool, kind of an entrepreneur within the agency, building out a service line for the first time. Ended up doing that for a number of years. Built a team that I’m really proud of, that service line is still running today, 10 plus maybe 12 years later, and ultimately went on to lead Portent from the very head of the agency. So did that for a number of years. Portent was a 50 plus person agency by the time I left. We ended up going through acquisition over my last couple years there and ultimately decided to step away. So a little bit of background there, just on my agency life and how I got to where I am today.

Drew McClellan:

Awesome. And so you left the agency to do what?

Chad Kearns:

Yeah, so now I’m with a very small firm called Fired Up! Culture, and we are all about building culture, engagement, developing leaders within the agency environment, is really the area that I’m focusing on. My background, where I come from, I was actually a client, we had hired Fired Up! Culture. So for my last seven or eight years working at Portent in the agency, Fired Up! was right there along the way with us. Really focused on people, really focused on culture. How do we get the most out of our people? How do we build a culture where people want to show up and do their best and stay in the agency environment?

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. It’s interesting. So Danielle and I spend pretty much seven days a week talking to agency owners and culture is such a hot topic right now. Post-pandemic, hiring has been just a beast, not only just salary requirements, which have skyrocketed, but just how do you find the right people? Everyone is struggling with how they’re working. Are they working from an office? Are they working from home? Are they hybrid? And all of the cultural implications of those kinds of decisions. So this is such an important topic, and as you know as a former agency leader, there is no asset that is more important to an agency owner than their people. I mean, we just can’t do the work without them. I don’t care how great you are at AI or technology or whatever, you still need the bodies and the brains and the hearts of your people. And so I can see why you would be drawn to that work, given how important it is. When did you make the move to Fired Up?

Chad Kearns:

Just about a year ago. Yeah.

Drew McClellan:

Okay. So post-pandemic?

Chad Kearns:

Post-pandemic. Yep.

Drew McClellan:

Okay.

Chad Kearns:

Correct.

Drew McClellan:

Okay. So talk to us a little bit about what you are seeing on the landscape of how cultural concerns have changed pre and post-pandemic?

Chad Kearns:

I’m really proud to see that more and more agency owners are taking that cultural importance to the forefront of what they’re doing and how they’re leading their business. I actually do think for the most part, the agency owners I know and that I’ve worked with and the leaders in that field, have been relatively people focused for a very long time, even-

Drew McClellan:

No doubt.

Chad Kearns:

… no doubt, right?

Drew McClellan:

Yeah.

Chad Kearns:

Before COVID, we know that the people are what make the business run. The people are what keep our clients around. The people are the ones who allow us to grow our businesses and grow our agencies. So I don’t-

Drew McClellan:

And beyond that, I don’t know about you, but what drew me to agency life originally, was a combination of the work and the people that I got to work with. I just find agency people fascinating, in terms of how smart they are and typically how funny they are. And most agency people are very committed and passionate about the work. And so I think for most agency owners, part of why they care about culture is, these are the people they want to hang out with and be with and create with.

Chad Kearns:

… yeah, well said. And how often do you talk to people in the agency world? Doesn’t matter if they’re an intern, doesn’t matter if they’re an owner, anywhere around there they say, “Why do you like your agency? Why do you like being here?” 90% of the time-

Drew McClellan:

Right.

Chad Kearns:

… the answer is the people, right? And that is the challenges that clients can bring, the reward that clients can bring as well, right? The ups and the downs through all of that type of work. But it’s the people that you’re spending your time with. It’s the people that you’re around going through it day-to-day that ultimately, keep people around and attract people to this environment.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. So given all of that, what are some of the challenges that you are seeing your clients face today, that are a little stickier than they used to be?

Chad Kearns:

Yeah, I think one of the things that we continue coming back to with a lot of the folks that we’re working with, it starts at the very front of purpose of the organization, right?

Drew McClellan:

Right.

Chad Kearns:

Purpose, vision, values, goals and then the layer that I’ll add on top of that is, how do those things, how does that why, the purpose, relate to people in the agency? How are they a part of it? How does what I do every day, when I show up, when I sit down to do my work, how does that connect to the goals of the organization? And so much of what we do starts there. If that foundation isn’t built, if it’s not strong, if it’s not clear for the leaders at the top of the organization, and if it doesn’t trickle down throughout the agency, there’s a lot of work to be done.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. Yeah. I’m always astonished. We talk a lot about mission, vision, values in agencies, we talk about it in workshops. I always lead a roundtable session on it at the summit, and I’m always surprised because I think agency leaders and owners are people focused and I think they’re also visionary. And so I would expect somebody with those two traits to have a lock on that mission, vision, values, and to be able to articulate not only what our values are, but how do they show up, how are they woven through the organization? And I’m always kind of surprised at how often I bump into an agency that has not done that work. Do you see that across the board?

Chad Kearns:

Yeah. I agree with you on leadership, having the vision, being that creative spot, being able to pull those things out. I think prioritizing the time and making the space for it on a recurring basis within the day-to-day of the agency, that’s the challenge.

Drew McClellan:

Right.

Chad Kearns:

Because you start talking about mission, vision, values, these big topics, these big conversations, it’s not something that can be decided in a two-day leadership offsite, presented once at an agency, all hands and then-

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. Put on a shelf.

Chad Kearns:

… as a leader, you expect everyone to adapt it and run with it and take it forever. It has to be something that is woven into the culture, woven into everyday operations. And I think it is hard for leaders to continue to come back to that enough times until it is ingrained, right?

Drew McClellan:

Yeah.

Chad Kearns:

I know many folks are not back into offices full-time. We’re not just going to throw up an office poster and everyone’s going to take those values or that mission or goals and run with it. It’s got to be talked about and lived every single day throughout the agency.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. And one of the other things that we find in our work with agencies is that, when mission, vision, values are sort of committee driven, they tend to be what I would call, pablum, they’re words like, honesty and integrity and well, creativity, be curious, but there’s no meaning put behind them so that they are unique to the agency. And if the agency owner doesn’t feel those in their heart, he or she is not going to make decisions based on those. So I always worry when we’re going to put 10 people in a room and we’re all going to get stickers and vote on the buzzwords, kind of thing. I really do believe, and I’m curious because I know this is part of the work that you do, I’m curious, if you agree or disagree? I believe that they have to be born from the agency owner or leader, and yes, you want to gut check them with your leadership team and the team at large, but if they’re not your core values, then you are not going to run your business based on them.

Chad Kearns:

It’s got no shot if it doesn’t come from the leader of the organization. Absolutely no shot.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. But to your point, even if they’ve done the hard work, because you’re right, it does require some introspection and some reflection to get past, it’s no different than the creative work we do. The first draft of anything-

Chad Kearns:

Totally.

Drew McClellan:

… is the expected answer, no matter what kind of creative work you’re doing, it is pushing past draft two, three, four, five, six, to where you really get to the heart of what you’re willing to not bend on and to really run your business based on these core values and the mission and vision that’s come out of those. It takes some time. But assuming the agency owner or leader has done that work, I think a lot of people feel like, now they’re done and to your point, that’s actually just the beginning. Now it’s like, “Okay, how do I make these relevant to my employees? How do I weave them into our interview process, our review process, our employee recognition programs? How do I share them with clients and how do they dictate process and systems and decisions that we make?” That’s really where the work comes in.

Chad Kearns:

Absolutely. I mean, there’s a full life cycle around this stuff, and I’m glad you mentioned the recruiting process, right? It starts before the interview, even-

Drew McClellan:

Right.

Chad Kearns:

… before recruiting and how are you going out and sourcing candidates and how are you finding them, and what messages are you sharing with folks before they even consider walking into an interview? Right?

Drew McClellan:

Right.

Chad Kearns:

How are you training your people to interview for folks and what are they looking for in ideal candidates, aside from the technical skills that they bring for the role? It starts so early on and just who you bring in and who sticks around for the long term.

Drew McClellan:

Well, and that’s the key, is the who sticks around part. So one of the biggest challenges in agencies today, is retention of great employees. And if the values aren’t aligned from the beginning, you can count on that person not sticking around or worse, sticking around and not being aligned with how you want your business to run. And now you’re going to face a difficult decision at some point in time because I don’t care how good they are technically… Danielle and I have this conversation with agency owners pretty much in every coaching call we have. I don’t care how good they’re at their job, if they aren’t the right fit, if they do not add to the culture and they do not add to the value set of the organization, they are not a good fit and they can’t stay long-term.

Chad Kearns:

I completely agree, but how hard is that as being the agency owner and making that decision? I think that was one of the things that I was really tested by throughout the years in leading Portent. We’ve got a really great person, clients like them, technically, they’re really, really strong, they’re delivering great work, but they’re hard to work with or they don’t follow the process or they’re not bought in. And I think especially you mentioned a little bit ago, the hiring environment that we’re in and that is such a hard place to be. I have empathy for those in those positions today, for the leaders in those positions today, who need to make those decisions because it’s not easy. And bringing somebody in, going out to look for somebody-

Drew McClellan:

It’s expensive.

Chad Kearns:

… going through the interview process, hiring somebody, onboarding them, and then hoping they work out. It’s expensive from a dollar standpoint, but it’s expensive from a time standpoint, as well.

Drew McClellan:

Right.

Chad Kearns:

And that’s probably the larger cost that frankly, a lot of agency leaders don’t have more time to give. And then I think that’s the push and pull that a lot of folks feel is, how can I get by with this person? Or how much longer can I get by with this person before they start doing longer term damage to what we’re trying to do as a whole, as an agency?

Drew McClellan:

Which I think gets back to, this is why the core values have to really matter to the owner, because that’s where the rubber meets the road. Living by your values, means you’re going to make some really hard and sometimes expensive decisions because they’re the right things to do, even though they’re not the easy things to do. And I think one of the things we forget about as leaders is, when you stand in front of a room and you talk about the core values and the mission and vision of the agency, and to your point, you put up the posters or everyone’s got the laminated card in their wallet, your employee recognition program is based on the values, and then your employees see you tolerating someone who clearly does not live by the values, the damage is unbelievable.

Chad Kearns:

Yeah. I think it starts with the agency owner itself or the agency leaders who are guiding and owning those values. They have to be the ones to exemplify it, not just live it, but exemplify it and that can be really, really hard, as well. So when you start talking about, how do we get traction and how do we get buy-in, fair or not fair, everybody watches the leaders to see what they do and how they do it, right?

Drew McClellan:

Right.

Chad Kearns:

And in order to get that traction, you have to exemplify, you have to be the standard bearer, for everybody else to have a chance to even follow.

Drew McClellan:

So are there some places in the role of leader? And you work with your clients to help them very, very publicly live the values. Are there certain places where, boy, if you don’t do it here or you don’t do it there, now we have employees questioning our commitment to the values and are these really just the values of the month or the week or the year, as opposed to something that is at the core of the organization?

Chad Kearns:

Yeah. We talk about those key communication points a lot with the folks that I work with, whether that be an all-hands meeting that happens every month or every quarter, whether that is, we have a lot of leaders that we work with who are sending weekly or biweekly emails. And really that communication point, those key communication points, when you have your, so to speak, leader hat on, you’re getting up in front of the agency, whether that’s in-person, whether it’s over Zoom, whether it’s via Slack or email, those are the places where it’s really time to shine. Those are the places where it’s really time to drive home, “Here’s what we’re doing, here’s why we’re doing it, and importantly, here’s how we’re going to do it, as well.” How do we exemplify those things? How do we live the culture that we’re building? How do we live the values that we’re talking about as an agency?

Drew McClellan:

Right. But it’s not just the talking points, that’s the easy part, saying the values. So are there key areas of decision making or places where really, the proof is in the pudding?

Chad Kearns:

Well, I think that depends on what the values are, that depends on how a leader’s going to define showing up and how they want their org to go?

Drew McClellan:

Right.

Chad Kearns:

One of the places where it really shines through that most people don’t see, we get a little bit of a behind the curtain look, is when it comes time to do budgeting. Not everyone in the agency is going to see that obviously, right?

Drew McClellan:

But they’re going to see the results of it?

Chad Kearns:

They’re going to see the results of it and I think behind the closed door, how do you prioritize where the dollars go? Right?

Drew McClellan:

Right.

Chad Kearns:

That is a very, very telling factor of what the true priorities of the leader and the true priorities of the organization, where they lie, especially when times get a little bit tougher, right? We’re kind of coming in that area now for a lot of folks. There’s been consolidation, there’s been some account loss across the board, and I think people are feeling some more restriction from a budget standpoint than maybe where they were in the past. And how do you prioritize where those dollars go? Right? And there’s not dollars to go around for everyone, those priorities typically, lie where the true values of that leader and the true values of that organization stand.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. I’ll give you a really tangible example of that. I see a lot of agencies, one of their core values, is something around this concept of lifelong learning and that our industry is never static. And with all the conversation around AI right now, that’s never been more evident than it is right now, in terms of, we have got to keep learning and growing. So if an organization holds that out as a core value and then doesn’t make the time or the budget to allow their employees to continue to grow, that’s a very tangible, “You said this, but I’m not seeing that.” That illustrates your point, I think?

Chad Kearns:

Yeah, I think another place where we see it as well, as you bring that example up, what comes to mind for me, is vacation time. I think everyone knows the perils of unlimited PTO but even, “Hey, take your vacation, take your days off, but oh, I need this, that, and the other done.”

Drew McClellan:

Right.

Chad Kearns:

And you are going to spend your time on vacation, doing some of that work. And maybe that’s not an explicit message from agency leadership, but maybe it’s implicitly felt throughout the organization. I think that’s another place where we see that come through, where does the rubber meet the road, in terms of, “Yeah, we want to give you time, we want to give you space, you need to decompress. Oh, but these things need to get done.”

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. It’s interesting.

Chad Kearns:

That’s a friction point, certainly.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. One of our agencies, one of their core values is the idea that, “You got to get away and refresh to be fresh.” And they literally, will put an autoresponder on an employee’s email and they change the password so the employee can’t access their email while they’re on vacation.

Chad Kearns:

Love it.

Drew McClellan:

And the message, the autoresponder is, “Drew’s going to be out of town from this date to this date. No one is monitoring this email. And so here are the four or five people who can help you, but this email will be emptied before Drew gets back, so don’t send him anything and hope that he’s going to see it when he gets back. You can re-email him on this date because he’ll be back in the office and fresh and ready to serve you then.” So they just make it so the person… Because I think the other part of that in this example is, “Great, I go away for a week, but then I have 500 emails that I have to deal with on the Sunday night before I come back on Monday.” And they just eliminate that sense. But a lot of agencies do not have that policy, to your point.

Chad Kearns:

And I think it puts an undue pressure on folks. Yes, our work is important. It doesn’t matter what you’re doing within the agency, work is important. I shouldn’t say anybody, none of us, very few of us are saving lives with the work that we do in the agency world.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah.

Chad Kearns:

And I think that’s something that frankly took me, a number of years to realize and adjust how I approached, both time away for myself and time away for those on my team. That was a point of growth for me. I certainly never thought we were saving the world. I certainly never thought we were saving lives or anything like that, but realizing that, stepping away for a week and not checking in at all was so much more beneficial than, even just checking in my email once a day while I was gone on vacation. Just that mind space for people to step away and come back and be refreshed, made a massive difference for so many people that we worked closely with.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah, I agree. Let’s talk about the leader’s role in creating culture, especially in the work environment that is today, which is, we just finished our salary and benefit survey. So I’m going to tee up this question then we need to take a break and then we’ll come back.

Chad Kearns:

Sure.

Drew McClellan:

So we just finished our annual salary and benefit survey and about 10% to 15% of agencies are completely remote. About 20% are in the office all five days of the week. And then the vast majority are doing some sort of a hybrid, where they’re in the office a couple days and then they’re working from home a couple days. And as you know, before the pandemic, almost all of us were in the office. I would say, less than 5% of agencies were completely remote or virtual, and everybody else was pretty much in the office five days a week. So that’s culturally a huge shift for us.

So I’m curious about how building culture has changed from your perspective, given that agencies created culture around a couple things, values, food and social activity. Agencies could throw a party for any reason, for any holiday, National Cupcake Day, Cinco de Mayo, you name it, we had a reason to bring food and usually booze into the office. And now a lot of that has changed for folks. So let’s take a quick break and then let’s talk about how you are seeing agencies create culture in this sort of new world environment?

Hey, just want to take a quick minute and tell you about a resource that we have on the website that I don’t talk about as often as I should. So it’s an exercise called, My Future Self. And the reason why you would do this exercise is, if you are in planning mode, and this is really for you as either an agency owner or an agency leader, but you really want to think about what your future looks like, not the agency’s future, your future.

I find so many agency owners struggle with how they are spending their days and is it fulfilling and is this what they want to do in five years? That we created an exercise, and I will tell you a very brief story, but I first did a version of this exercise probably 15 years ago. And it basically walks you through some thinking and you have to do some journaling around what your future-self looks like? And you have to give yourself into it, you have to really suspend the reality and talk about what it is today. But I’m telling you, when I did it, how it was different from my current moment in my life, was pretty dramatic. And I was working with a coach at the time and I said, “This is great, and this is the life I want, but it doesn’t look like my life now.”

And we talked about just being open to the possibility of transitioning in some of those directions. And I will tell you, for the last 10 years, I have been living that life, the life that I created in this exercise. So it can be very powerful and very eye-opening. And I’m not a woo-hoo kind of guy, but once I understood what I wanted, as opportunities presented themselves, I just took advantage of them in different ways than I would’ve had I not done this exercise. So head over to the AMI website and go to, agencymanagementinstitute.com/myfutureself.

And you can read more about it. There’s a video intro where I tell you all about it and then some questions. It’s $197, if you don’t like it or you don’t end up doing it, happy to give you your money back. But I’m telling you, it can be really transformative if you give yourself into the exercise and really do it with an open heart. So just wanted to tell you it was there. Hopefully it’ll be helpful for some of you.

Okay, let’s get back to the show. All right, we are back with Chad Kearns and we are talking about agency culture and the impact that has on your team, retention, growth, attracting the right employees, all of that. And right before the break, I was asking, a lot of you are telling us that you’re struggling with culture because you can’t do it the way you used to do it. So Chad, how are people successfully creating culture and a stickiness today in the new work environment?

Chad Kearns:

Yeah, I’m glad you brought up earlier, the point around, we used to be able to throw a party together, bring in some food, bring in some drinks, and we called that culture. And I certainly think the social aspect, the building meaningful relationships, oftentimes growing friendships. I have a number of friendships that I think will last a very, very long time, coming from the agency that I did and work that we did together. Right? Long lasting, real friendships. And to me, that is certainly part of building culture but I think there’s so much more to building culture and building norms in an organization, in an agency, that are past social. And now often, we’re not relying on being elbow to elbow in the office every deal with each other, I think the social component of what culture is and how culture is built, is going to rely less on culture or sorry, is going to rely less on that social piece of parties and food and outings and things like that.

But it’s the operations within an organization. How do we get those really, really strong? How do we provide learning opportunities? How do we provide growth opportunities? How do we provide opportunities for promotion and advancement? How do we still build ways to collaborate with each other and get the work done in a really, really positive way? So I think agency leaders have to shift their thinking a little bit, from culture is social. Right? Building that culture, social is absolutely a piece of it, but there is a lot more, I will call it, operational infrastructure that goes on to building what culture is, especially for fully remote and hybrid agencies, which I think is where most of us are going to find ourselves moving forward.

Drew McClellan:

That doesn’t sound fun or sexy, by the way, I’m just saying.

Chad Kearns:

It doesn’t, but I think those are the things that people care about and those are the things that maybe bring more inclusive culture, more equitable culture, as opposed to, who can hang the longest.

Drew McClellan:

Right. So in terms of that, what are you seeing agencies do, in terms of operations and systems and process? What are the things that employees today care about, that they notice, that they feel, that they value? One of the things that we talk about sometimes are what I call, the braggable benefits. So it’s like, what are your employees, actually when their friends are talking to them and they’re saying, “Tell me about your work, or tell me about the company.” Or when one of the friends is asking if they should apply for a job? What are people saying about why it’s a great place to work?

Chad Kearns:

I think it’s opportunities for personal growth. A handful of minutes ago, we talked a little bit about that idea of always growing, always learning, how are agencies making investments, whether that is stipends or paying for people to take classes, going to conferences, virtually or in-person, things like that. But I think that idea on an individual level, “How am I progressing, how am I growing, how am I advancing in my career?” Are things that a lot of people, and it’s hard to say, do people care more about it today than they did 5 years ago or 10 years ago? I think that’s really hard to say.

Drew McClellan:

Right.

Chad Kearns:

I think the folks that we talk about, when we get results back from the culture index work that we do as an organization, a really, really big hunger for personal growth and advancement within an organization is one of the things that really leads to charge. And we’re hearing pretty clearly from a lot of folks, regardless of where they are in the agency, regardless of how long they’ve been in the agency world, “How am I advancing? How am I getting better? How am I going to be in a better spot a year from now, 5 years from now, 10 years from now?”

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. Two things. One, every year we do the agency edge research. And normally, we talk to clients about some aspect of why they hire agencies or what they do with agencies. But a few years ago, we did one with employees and even back then, and that was pre-pandemic, the number one reason why they stay with an agency, is they think they can grow there. So to your point, this is not really a pandemic inspired hunger, but I think it’s probably a passion and a need that has been inflamed by the pandemic, for sure.

Chad Kearns:

And I think it’s magnified in some ways because that in-person five days a week, 8, 10 hours a day environment is gone, right?

Drew McClellan:

Right.

Chad Kearns:

Maybe it’s not gone completely, but it’s certainly diminished. And now that we don’t have that on a regular basis, what’s next for us? And I think people are going to that growth moment.

Drew McClellan:

And I think this is particularly challenging for smaller agencies because at a glance, the employees are like, “Okay, look, there’s 10 people here or there’s 20 people here. Most of these people have been here 5 or 10 years. I’m right underneath somebody who’s already been here 10 years, they’re not going anywhere. So do I have to leave to find opportunity?” And so I think an agency that can help employees recognize that they can add value in a lot of different ways, and it’s not necessarily related to just the org chart and whose box is above your box. Are there agencies that do see longevity of their employees?

Chad Kearns:

I think it’s a great point. That was something that we certainly struggled with, and I will say, we lost good people because of that. We would go through a year where maybe growth wasn’t where we wanted it to be, or we would go through years where we had lots of really, really good people who were hungry and ambitious and wanted elevated roles. And frankly, we just didn’t have the work for it. Either we didn’t have the work from a volume standpoint for that, or we didn’t have the work from a complexity standpoint, where we needed more senior people at a higher pay rate and all of that sort of stuff.

There certainly are pinch points that agencies go through. And I think one of the other things that we really tried to do at Portent, was start to differentiate and carve out different career tracks between management and individual contributors. Because I think that’s where a lot of pinch points happen and come up for agencies, when you start to look at an org chart and you start to look at boxes is, “Well, if the only way for me to move up is into management, I’m going to be really hungry for that, even if I’m not the right kind of person, or even if I’m not ready for a managerial role.” And a lot of folks get to the point, where it’s either up or out, and if up isn’t an option for them, then they leave. And I think that’s really, really unfortunate for everybody in that situation.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. I know one of your core beliefs is that, one of the most important roles for an agency leader, whether they’re the owner or department head, is attracting the right in, air quotes, talent. Can you talk a little bit about how we can do that better? Because I do believe that when you bring the right fit employee in, it’s like the right fit client. The odds of them staying with you 3, 5, 10 years are much better than when the fit is a mismatch from the very beginning. So how do we do that better?

Chad Kearns:

It starts by being really, really clear about what you’re looking for and that is a place where a lot of folks struggle. If it’s not defined, if it’s not talked about, it’s not lived throughout the organization, it’s really hard to go find the right people, when you don’t really know what you’re looking for. Right? So step one is, get clear there. I think the second part is, and this is something we really leaned on at my last-

Drew McClellan:

I’m going to ask, I’m stop you for a second. I’m assuming you’re not talking about a job description, clarity? I mean, I’m sure there’s some of that, but that’s not really what you’re saying?

Chad Kearns:

… I’m talking about, we go back to the top of what we’re talking about today, it’s the values. Right? How does this person show up? What do they care about? What are their priorities? The technical skills, especially with where the industry is heading, the technical skills are there for a lot of people. And the technical skills are really not what differentiate a good employee from a great employee. It’s the intangibles. It’s the soft skills, it’s the finding it’s the right fit. That is what it is.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. And so if I’m really clear about the core values of my agency, how do I assess if you, Chad, the guy who sent me your resume, align with that?

Chad Kearns:

That’s a really good question. I will say this, it is really, really hard to do. And I would say that, I found myself, the hardest part and I’ll actually say, one of the most difficult parts of leading an agency, is getting the right people. And I think especially, when technical skills are harder to differentiate from each other now, a lot of people have a lot of technical skills. The people are coming in with those skill sets more often than not, obviously depending on what role you’re hiring for and what level within the organization. But to be direct, I don’t know if I have a good answer for you. I think it’s really, really hard to do. I think it’s really, really hard to suss out. We had a lot of people in our agency who had been there for a long time.

We had a lot of people are in our agency who had interviewed, a lot of people had kind of gone through the ropes before. We use committees to hire, we use conversation after that and anonymous feedback forms about candidates to hire. And we told folks going into interviews, “Yes, let’s make sure the technical skills checkout, let’s make sure they can do the job day-to-day. But I really want you to care about and really think about X, Y, and Z.” And hiring is hard. You’re not going to hit 100%, probably not going to hit 75%, in terms of talking about great employees who are going to stay for a long time. And I think that’s part of it, is just knowing that you’re not going to hit it out of the park 100% of the time. It’s really, really hard to do, really, really well.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah, it’s frustrating. Remind me when we get off mic, I want to introduce you to Art Boulay and his partner at Strategic Talent Management because they’ve created an assessment, that I swear to God, is the scariest, accurate thing I’ve ever seen. He threatens to sell mine and I would kidnap his dog if I thought he was serious about it. So anyway, just off topic, remind me to make that introduction.

Chad Kearns:

Yeah, I’d love that.

Drew McClellan:

But back to the conversation. So yes, I need to find the right people and then talk about onboarding. How important, as you remember from agency life, we take too long to hire. We wait too long. We have a desperate need. We finally find the right person. They have to give two or three weeks notice, by the time they come in, we are bleeding, we need them so bad, we’re bleeding. So most agencies onboarding is, “Here’s your literal or virtual desk, you have a client meeting at 10:00 and go.” So talk about how we could do that a little better?

Chad Kearns:

That’s a very, very good question because I think a lot of folks find themselves in that position, right?

Drew McClellan:

Right.

Chad Kearns:

Hiring too late, identifying the need that we need to hire a couple of weeks later than we actually should have and then like you said, it takes a couple weeks to get that person in and get that person going. Couple of things, find other outlets than that person to do the work and I know that is so much easier said than done, but throwing folks into the fire right off the bat is not good for them. It’s not good for the teammates that frankly, are relying on somebody. It’s not good for the manager, as well in that position. I think that’s one of the things that we always really, really try to do is, be super cognizant of how and when we got people into their roles and how quickly they started producing work on behalf of clients, even if it costs us a little bit more money to go out and use freelancers temporarily to hemorrhage a little bit, right?

Drew McClellan:

Yeah.

Chad Kearns:

Anything you can do to get people into a better place, slow that first month down for them. And I think one of the other pitfalls that I really see, I felt this in our agency, I see this now with the folks that we work with. One of the unfortunate things that happens is, the hiring manager doesn’t have enough time for that person and getting someone off on the wrong foot is so detrimental in the short-term, but honestly, in the long-term.

Drew McClellan:

Agreed.

Chad Kearns:

And how often I say it to hiring managers that I work with, the first 30 days, the first 60 days that you have somebody in their role, should be so much more work for you than it is today even when you don’t have that person, you’ve got to spend the time, you’ve got to slow down. You have to do it right, because if they get onboarded poorly, if they have a bad experience, if they don’t learn the processes or the approach of the agency, I don’t want to say that they don’t have a chance, but it is so rare that they get back to a place where things are going well for them. You’ve got to be intentional to do anything possible to slow down and take the time to get them in properly.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. Well, and I think particularly now, because when we were in an all physical environment, we counted on the osmosis of people hearing each other and just bumping into how we get work done by observation and sitting in on meetings and doing things like that. And now that for most agencies, that has been dramatically lost. I think we’re struggling with how to do onboarding in this new environment.

Chad Kearns:

It’s a lot of intentional touchpoints.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah.

Chad Kearns:

Got to get really, really intentional about it. Daily standup in the morning, checking in via Slacker teams or whatever the IM system your agency is using. You’re right, it doesn’t happen through osmosis anymore. The osmosis process is much, much slower than it used to be when we were together every single day. Leaders have to be really, really intentional and pull themselves out of their own day-to-day to take care of that person. And as hard as that is, it’s really, really hard to do, I’ve been there, I know what it’s like. You have to make that person the priority and getting that person in and set up and rolling well, because if you don’t do that, you’re going to end up taking the work on anyways yourself later. Right?

Drew McClellan:

Right.

Chad Kearns:

The pain point’s going to be there again in 15 days or in 45 days or in six months when you can’t rely on that person. And so as hard as that is in the short-term, you’ve got to spend the time, be really, really intentional, to give that person a chance to get off on the right foot, so they can be a reliable resource and hopefully, a cornerstone of the agency down the road.

Drew McClellan:

Well, I mean, I think it’s the whole, measure twice, cut once, mentality. You can shortcut all you want, but you pay the price for that.

Chad Kearns:

Absolutely.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. So as we’re getting close to the end of our conversation, I’m thinking about thematically what we’ve been talking about, and here’s what I’m hearing you say, and I just want to gut check it with you. I’m hearing you say that number one, culture is the agency owner’s priority and it is their responsibility. Number two, they have to have bandwidth in their day to do it intentionally and consistently and well. And three, that culture is shifting and maybe it was always this way, but the realization that culture is much more about system, process, opportunity, as opposed to social gatherings, not that those aren’t fun and we shouldn’t do them, but is even more prevalent today than ever before.

Chad Kearns:

And I think that last point is really the one to key in on. I think the importance of social is still there.

Drew McClellan:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Chad Kearns:

Social looks different than it did three or five years ago. The role that it plays, in my opinion, is diminished and frankly, it should be diminished in some ways, in a lot of ways actually. And when we talk about process and operations, I think that is the medium to build the culture. It’s not a culture of, “Here’s your 10 step process for X, Y, and Z for a hundred things.” But how do we build that infrastructure of belonging? How do we build an infrastructure of belonging and how do we have the systems and the operational priority around that to build that belonging?

At the end of the day, that’s what culture is. A lot of the time, the easy way out to build that belonging was, “Let’s socialize. Let’s socialize a lot. Let’s be around each other a lot.” And that isn’t going to be the case anymore for the majority of agencies out there. So how do we build the infrastructure? How do we build through process and through systems, a place where people want to belong? A place where people want to show up, they want to show up every day, they want to bring their best, they want to do good work, ultimately for the clients of the agency. Let’s not forget why agencies exist.

Drew McClellan:

That’s right.

Chad Kearns:

It’s to provide service, to be a really, really good outlet and provider for the partners, for the brands, for the clients they work with.

Drew McClellan:

Yeah. Agreed. This has been a great conversation. If folks want to learn more about your organization and the work that you do, what’s the best way for them to track you down?

Chad Kearns:

Firedupculture.com is the best place to see an overview of what we do from a service standpoint and how we support agency leaders. I’m on LinkedIn as well, Chad Kearns, you can find me there. Always happy to step in and support and have a conversation with anybody as they’re struggling through these things, as they’re looking for solutions and as they’re trying to lead an agency. I have a great deal of empathy for agency leaders, being in that position for a number of years, it’s a really, really tough place to be. It’s a rewarding place to be. It can be a whole lot of fun, but it also comes with a lot of work and a lot of stress and unfortunately, at least for myself, I found some sleepless nights when I was in that role and leading my firm. So always happy to help, always happy to step in, and I appreciate you having me on today, Drew.

Drew McClellan:

Oh, I appreciate you sharing your expertise and your insight. Thanks for being with us.

Chad Kearns:

Thanks. Take care.

Drew McClellan:

All right, guys. This wraps up another episode, and I’m hoping that this episode was a little, maybe uncomfortable is the wrong word, but maybe a little uncomfortable, that this is an area where I think most of us can be better. And better starts with two things I believe, clarity of what is that mission, vision, and values? And the second part is, actually making room to make it a priority. I know how busy you all are. I know how crazy your days are, but I know that you spend a lot of time in client work and in doing other things and if anybody pays the price of your absence, it is often your own team. So I’m hoping you take all of this to heart and that you really think about, have you clearly defined the mission, vision, values of the agency? And more importantly, have you clearly and consistently communicated what those are?

How have you woven those through the organization to create culture? And as Chad said, how are you creating a sense of belonging through the way you engage with employees? I mean, think about it. If you were a member of a family or an organization and the head of the family or organization barely knew your name, hardly talked to you at all, would you feel like you belonged? I think sometimes we accidentally create a sense of distance with our employees that we can correct. So lots of action items in this episode. I hope you will take advantage of some of them and make some changes or be super proud that you don’t have to make the changes and recognize that that’s one of the reasons why you have the retention that you have.

All right. As always, big shout out and thanks to our friends at White Label IQ. As you know, they’re the presenting sponsor of the podcast, Born from an Agency, so they get how to be a good agency partner, how to make sure there’s profit left on the bottom line for you. They do white label, design, dev, and PPC and agency folks rave about not only their service but the results. So check them out at whitelabeliq.com/ami for the special deal they have for you, the podcast listeners. And of course, I know I say it pretty much every time, but I hope you know that it comes deep from the heart, I am so grateful that you keep coming back and listening. I love having these conversations.

I love that when I see you or meet you or bump into you or get an email from you, you tell me which episodes you love and what you did with them. I love that this is valuable for you. I know you’re super busy, so whether we are on a treadmill together or walking your dog or on a golf course or on a subway, or however you make time to consume this content, thank you very much. I’m grateful for each and every one of you. All right, I’ll be back next week, hope you will too, talk to you then.

Announcer:

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