Technology has brought many changes to the workplace and one of the biggest has to be the ability and desire to work remotely. Many agencies swore they’d never allow an employee to work from home – be it down the street or across the country.  That tune has changed for sure.

Some agencies are making the shift to a work-from-home environment a few days a week or a hybrid agency where some of the staff is in common shared office space and others are scattered around the country.  Today, in our AMI owner peer networks – several of the agencies have taken the plunge and gone totally virtual.

My podcast guest Gerald Sexton is the head of HR at a company called Goodway Group.  Goodway is an agency that specializes in programmatic media and they are 100% virtual.  Going all out virtual may not be right for you or your agency at this very moment but Gerald gives us some food for thought with regards to this changing workplace environment and how we can best adapt. If his retention and production numbers have anything to say about it, going virtual has been nothing but great for his agency.

Join Gerald and I as we wade into these changes and give you some things to consider by learning:

  • The history of Goodway Group
  • Everything you’ve ever wanted to know about working at a virtual company
  • How Goodway succeeds with a virtual company with employees in 41 states
  • The best tools for managing a virtual company
  • What Gerald looks for in the hiring process to figure out if someone is suited for the hiring process or not
  • Why Goodway looks at their team members results — not their hours working
  • How to build and maintain a strong company culture when running a virtual team
  • Goodway’s twice-yearly all company meet-up
  • The costs involved in a virtual team
  • The benefits of working from home — both on personal and business life
  • Giving your team the freedom to plan out their day in a way that works best for them
  • Why leaders of virtual teams need to be great at giving feedback and being transparent
  • Why — if you’re not comfortable going all virtual — you should start small — but not too small — and build from there
  • Benefits Goodway offers their employees that they couldn’t offer if they had a physical location
  • How to get started trying going virtual

Gerald Sexton is Director of Employee Enablement at Goodway Group. Gerald joined Goodway in early 2016 and brings significant experience in leveraging human resources to improve business performance and employee experience. Throughout his career, he has worked in the consulting, medical, aerospace and defense, and satellite-entertainment industries. His most recent position as Senior Human Resources (HR) Manager for DIRECTV’s premier customer-retention center in Boise, Idaho, allowed him to demonstrate just how much impact a strong HR partnership can have. Using an integrated approach with site leadership, Gerald helped the site reduce attrition by 7 percent, creating three million in cost savings.

He holds a BS in psychology and an MA in organizational psychology. His fascination with solving complex problems in organizations led him to a career in HR with a strong emphasis on talent and organizational development.

Gerald has a passion for cooking and enjoys traveling (and eating food from) all over the world. He lives in Boise with his wife, Robyn, and daughter, Rowan.

To listen – you can visit the Build A Better Agency site ( and grab either the iTunes or Stitcher files or just listen to it from the web.

If you’d rather just read the conversation, the transcript is below:

Table of Contents (Jump Straight to It!)

  1. Goodway’s Employee Structure
  2. The Kinds of Systems and Processes That Need to Be in Place as a Virtual Company
  3. The Tools Gerald & His Team Use to Manage Work Flow
  4. Some of the Traits You Need to Look for in Virtual Employees
  5. How to Build & Maintain a Strong Company Culture as a Virtual Company
  6. What’s Surprised Gerald the Most About an All-Virtual Company
  7. How Goodway Tracks Employee Productivity
  8. What Leaders in All-Virtual Companies Should Be More Mindful of
  9. What Compensation Looks Like in an All-Virtual Company
  10. Final Advice from Gerald

If you’re going to take the risk of running an agency, shouldn’t you get the benefits too? Welcome to Agency Management Institute’s Build A Better Agency podcast, presented by HubSpot. We’ll show you how to build an agency that can scale and grow with better clients, invested employees and best of all, more money to the bottom line.

Bringing his 25-plus years of experience as both an agency owner and agency consultant to you, please welcome your host, Drew McLellan.

Drew: Hey everybody. Drew McLellan here with another episode of Build A Better Agency. Before I even tell you about today’s episode, I need you to know that A, I live on a body of water, and B, the geese are everywhere today. So if my editors cannot cut out all of the honking, I apologize, but it’s all of us just being one with nature.

So one of the things we’re going to talk about today is, a lot of you are wrestling with finding talent in the town in which your agency lives and you’re struggling with trying to pair up the best talent available with a geography issue. So many of you have gone to either work from home environment or a lot of you have hybrid agencies where some of your staff is in common shared office space and others are scattered around the country and some of you have even gone all virtual. And that is what we’re going to talk about today.

We’re going to talk about how to do that well, what that looks like, the pros and cons of it. Let me tell you a little bit about our guest and why he is the man to chat with about this. Gerald Sexton is the head of HR at a company called Goodway Group, which many of you may be familiar with. They are an agency that specializes in programmatic media. And they are, many of you may not know this, but they are completely dispersed teams scattered all over the country.

Gerald can tell us a little bit more about that, but let me give you a little bit of his background first. He has been working in HR for a long time. He has a lot of global and Fortune 100 experience. Some of the companies that he has served, before he went over to Goodway, include DirecTV, Ratheon and Boeing and so he has worked in environments big and small and has been responsible for up to 1000 employees in over 60 countries, so clearly a man who knows HR trends and what’s happening and has a really interesting position at Goodway that we’re going to talk about.

So Gerald, welcome to the podcast.

Gerald: Thanks, Drew and thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.


Goodway’s Virtual Employee Structure

Drew: You bet. Give everybody a little bit of understanding of how Goodway is structured in terms of the employees and how that all kind of came to be before we dig into how it works and why it works.

Gerald: Yeah, absolutely. Goodway, obviously, we’re the largest independent provider for programmatic in the world, but we’re also almost paradoxically a family-owned 88-year-old company and programmatic hasn’t been around that long. So really, the past 10 years has been the incredible growth, along with the advertising industry itself, around programmatic. We are set up, essentially, at a 10:1 support ratio, about 10% of the company is in sales, about 75% is direct client support, and then we have about 15% administrative. Those numbers sound pretty simple, and they get complex when you think about the fact that we’re 100% virtual in about 41 different states, I think it’s 41 as of today.

We’re pretty spread out and the path that we took that might be different for other companies, and I’m sure we’ll get into it later in the podcast, is that, I haven’t been at Goodway that long, but 10 years ago, the decision was made to start and hire people virtually. It wasn’t hire 40 people to work in a giant office and then suddenly go virtual after that, it was kind of built from the ground up as we focused on programmatic as a virtual model, for better or worse. I’m glad to share the pros and cons of the things that we do well and the things that we’re challenged with these days.

Drew: For the listeners who aren’t familiar, Goodway actually started out as a printing company.

Gerald: That’s true.

Drew: The current owner, was it his dad or his granddad?

Gerald: Granddad, I believe, for the printing companies, so third generation.

Drew: His grandfather started the company. It was a traditional print shop, and then they did some kind of agency services on the side and, as the company got handed down to generations, the current owner of the company realized that, saw the writing on the wall for printing companies, and started looking around to see how he could pivot his business and, really, a fascinating story, which we won’t really get into too much today. But a fascinating story, saw that programmatic media was coming down the barrel in a big way and they really went all in and absolutely shifted their business.

They were a brick and mortar, very traditional company, when they were the print shop and when the current generation of ownership took over, it still was a print shop but then he very quickly started to pivot it into what it is today. Let’s talk a little bit about, when you say 41 countries, how many bodies are we talking about?

Gerald: In 41 states. If I said countries-

Drew: No, you said states. I made you global.

Gerald: I’ll take it. I think I’d like to go work in Thailand for a while, that sounds perfect. Forty-one different states, very complex, but the simple part of it is that we really put a lot of rigor around the hiring, and that doesn’t really depend on what state anyone is in. In order for us to succeed in this virtual environment that we have, we really have to select the right people, the right culture fit and, not just company culture, but working virtual. A lot of people that are in some of the support roles, so client services type roles or media roles, I don’t believe many of them have worked virtually before. Tech, you see that a lot, and sales folks, outside sales is almost virtual by default most of the time because they travel so much, so there definitely have been some challenges, at least initially, to really focus on how to bring in the right people so that we don’t have issues down the road with the way we’re set up.

Drew: About how many people are in the company today?

Gerald: Right now, we’ve got about 397 full-time and about 23 or so part-time.


The Kinds of Systems and Processes That Need to Be in Place as a Virtual Company

Drew: It seems to me that, even before you get to hiring virtual people, you’ve got to have systems and processes set up that allow them to function together as a team, because what you guys are doing is no different than other agency. It’s very collaborative work. What kind of systems and processes need to be in place to allow a team to be virtual and be successful?

Gerald: The funny thing that I get when I tell people that I work for a company where I work from home, the first thing they assume is that we must be on Skype and on video all the time in order to collaborate and get to know what’s happening in each other’s worlds. We definitely use Skype for business as our sort of online IM and phone call, if you will, software, but really, we don’t do much video at all. In fact, it’s very out of our cultural norm. If someone wanted to talk to me on video, I would think something’s a little bit wrong, unless I knew ahead of time what we going to have a video meeting.

Systems-wise, it’s pretty simple. I would say process-wise, there’s a little bit more rigor behind that. The process, it starts, like I said, with hiring, but also with training. We actually do all the orientation, on-boarding, all of that, sort of a five-week curriculum, give or take depending on the job role, that’s all done virtually. Before someone even gets onto the job team, they are sort of steeped in the idea that, whatever we needed to get done, we can do from our homes, for the most part.

Once they’re on job teams, the teams that are supporting a certain client or account or region, each one might be slightly different depending on how they’re supporting a given customer, but really, there’s a lot of rigor around ensuring that handoffs are done properly, there are checklists, there’s a lot of feedback back and forth and, even at a company level, we sometimes get complaints about asking too often for feedback or wanting to hear too much from the employees.

You can’t please everybody, but we definitely err on the side of making sure that we’re gathering feedback in a bunch of different ways. We can go deeper into that if you’d like, but that’s probably the biggest process, because the thing we don’t have is the ability to walk down to the water cooler or the cafeteria or just poke our head in someone else’s office, like you would on a day-to-day basis if you were in a brick and mortar office.


The Tools Gerald & His Team Use to Manage Work Flow

Drew: Other than Skype, are there specific tools that you use to manage work flow? A lot of people talk about project management systems and things like that.

Gerald: The single biggest thing, and it’s a blessing and a curse because it is such a large place to house all of our information, but we have an internal Wiki. From the top down, from the department head meeting where we set strategy and we talk goals and strategy once a month or what’s happening in the company, the notes from every single one of those meetings going back three years, are public and available on the Wiki. Some random person that’s on a job team can go to that page and see what the COO is talking about every Monday.

That’s just one small way, but every job team has their own space, every department has their own space, so there’s a lot of thoughtfulness and rigor put into how we document, how we share information, how we can find it. I say blessing and curse because there’s so much stuff on there that we’re constantly spending effort to make sure that it’s kept up properly and that we’re doing things in a way that makes sense as the company’s grown so much.

The Wiki would be a huge thing. I know that different departments have different software that they use, and we’re kind of trying out different ones to make sure that we know which project management software might come out ahead or be the winner, if you will, but we haven’t settled on one for the company. Tech department, they will use Slack. The whole company hasn’t adopted it yet, but there’s some departments that have adapted things for the work that they do. The biggest differentiator that I’ve seen is our Wiki, which coming from other companies and especially being in HR, where it’s hard to find information or the one that HR built was pretty boring and not useful. It’s very useful and relevant it gets updated very quickly.


Some of the Traits You Need to Look for in Virtual Employees

Drew: I have to think, you alluded to it a couple of times, but the hiring, obviously, is critical. When you are hiring, regardless of the role, when you are hiring someone that you know is going to be working virtually, what are some questions or some traits? What are some things you’re looking for and what are red flags for you, in terms of their ability to function in that kind of an environment?

Gerald: That’s a good question. The first one that I would look for is, have they done it before, are they currently working virtual? That’s kind of an easy one to pick up on. I also will ask, in their current job role, how do they interact with their supervisor, their other teams. If their answers revolve around, “Well, I just walk over and talk to them,” or, “We all sit in the same room,” and that’s the only experience they’ve ever had, that might be a little bit of a red flag, if everything has to get done by consensus, sitting around a table at the same time. Then again, it depends on the role.

That’s something I look for. Also, how long have they been in the workforce that they had situations where maybe they’re at home a couple days a week, and how did they feel about it. I will say, that’s not always a red flag. I’ve worked at home here and there before in other HR roles, and I didn’t really love it, honestly. I had some reservations about working virtually when I started this role here at Goodway. It turned out to be the best thing ever. I would say probably it might be 4% or 5% don’t really love it, even if we’ve selected the best people that we can possibly do. There’s always some that just don’t love it once they get into it, even though we all had the best intentions. In general, asking about prior virtual experience, asking about how they deal with project management and decision-making, if it all has to be in person, those are some things that I look for.

Drew: Are there any sort of personality traits or communication styles that work better or worse in a virtual environment?

Gerald: That’s a fantastic question and I have not, I can’t give you the definitive answer. We definitely give out a personality assessment prior to hiring. We don’t use it for selection, but it’s good for us to know how people like to be communicated with. We do a couple other assessments. Honestly, the interview process, even for a coordinator-type position is probably six hours, multiple assessments, multiple interviews.

Having been here almost a year and a half now, I can’t tell you that there’s only one type of personality that will work virtual. I will say how they get what they need for that personality type is going to be very different, and that’s the part where we try to educate our supervisors, our managers, our people leaders, if you will, on how to manage those folks.

Introverts sometimes will like working virtually, because you don’t, there’s not a giant meeting room where you have to sit there and people are staring at you. On the other hand, people have to make sure to gather information. Then conversely, an extrovert, they’re not going to hesitate to speak up on a call, but if you’re running a meeting where you need to gather input to make a decision, the manager or the person running it is going to have to take a different approach to include all those styles, and they’ll have to remember to do it without looking around the room to see everyone’s face. That’s probably the tricky part.

Drew: I also think in a lot of cases, many agency owners, prior to the recession, there was, “You know what? Everybody’s going to be in my building, everybody’s going to be here from 8 to 5, we’re collaborative, we need to all be together.” Then, as the recession hit and agencies needed to downsize and manage their fixed costs, and in most agencies, their biggest fixed costs are people, then they sort of found this hybrid of either using some contract labor or maybe letting people work from home a couple of days, or part-timers. I still know a lot of agency owners who really believe that they have to all be in one place to do good work, which often translates to, “If I can’t see them, I don’t know what they’re doing.”

Gerald: Yes.

Drew: I’m wondering how you handle that with managers, of them being reassured that the team is doing what they need to do, even though they can’t walk in their office or look over their shoulder or know that they are, hypothetically, at their desk.

Gerald: That’s the mentality that I encountered a lot in some of my previous roles with larger companies, where the idea of working virtual was almost an “‘Atta’ boy” given out and they assume you won’t be doing much, but here’s your day to work from home. It wasn’t really a valid model. For us, it’s definitely part of the DNA. I think the biggest thing to make sure, if you’re going to have somebody work from home, is some really clear expectations, and people approach that in different ways. Some companies have very bullet-by-bullet expectations and a sort of telecommuting document that employees will sign that’s very specific, like you will be at your desk at these times.

That’s not part of our culture. We have just a high-level agreement that says it’s not a substitution for daycare, but we don’t spell out what somebody has to do every minute of every day. We are very much a result-based environment and, honestly, if someone is doing an amazing job and they’re meeting their obligations, if they’re at their desk for eight straight hours or two and then one and then three and whatever, doesn’t really bother us as long as all those expectations are being met. In fact, really it’s more of a very clear expectation up front and it’s only going to get reinforced if something’s wrong, if someone can’t get ahold of you or a client needs something and they didn’t get it.

That sounds really simple, but there’s a lot of work that’s going to go into that. If anyone’s listening and they think, “Okay, I’m just going to make an agreement,” it really has to line up with your culture, and some cultures are very process-oriented and the checklist helps them, and others, they want to make sure that it’s lined up to values and trust and really broad, and for some cultures, that would seem a little too weird.


How to Build & Maintain a Strong Company Culture as a Virtual Company

Drew: Actually, culture is the thing I want to talk about next. For many agencies, a big part of their recruitment and their retention strategy is that they have this great culture and that the people that work together really enjoy each other and that it’s a lively environment, work environment. I am sure some of the listeners are going, “If I, all of a sudden, sent all of my employees home, or I started hiring people all over the land, how would they stay knitted to the culture?”, and all of that. I want to get into that, but let’s take a quick break and then we’ll come back and dig into that.

I am back with Gerald Sexton from the Goodway Group, and we are talking about virtual work environments and virtual teams. Before the break, I was saying that I know for many of you, one of the things for you is a great retention and recruitment tool in terms of staff is the culture that you’ve created inside your office. I suspect some of you are wondering, how do you do that in a virtual environment? How does Goodway, well first of all, talk to us about the retention rate of Goodway. Is it a revolving door? Do people stay for years and years and years? Then let’s talk about the culture that creates that.

Gerald: Perfect. It is not a revolving door. I’m going to brag on us a little bit. We are single-digit attrition if I look at last year overall, which is very low for almost any industry and certainly for ours, so we have a great-

Drew: Especially right now. Right now, agencies are running about 30% attrition, so you guys are clearly doing something right.

Gerald: We’re less than a third of that, for sure.

Drew: Wow.

Gerald: It’s not to say that we don’t lose people occasionally, but I would say most of the folks that leave us are either aren’t a great fit and maybe we should have done a better job at selecting, or they genuinely joined us and it wasn’t for them or there’s a better opportunity that we couldn’t provide. There’s a little bit of attrition. We certainly use our culture as a tool to attract people, and we’ve gotten a couple of awards this year, which we’re pretty proud of. We got One of the Best Places to Work awards on Glassdoor and then we got a Best Places to Work from SHRM on their Winwork Works format, or their platform. From a numbers perspective, we’re doing great but, in practice, I think what you’re getting at is what are things that we do that kind of maintain that even though we’re spread out all over the place.

Drew: Right.

Gerald: It’s not going to sound like anything earth-shattering, but we really focus a lot on the routine, daily, weekly, monthly, what happens in our meetings, how are people reaching out. It might take a little bit more effort or seem a little bit silly to have, for example, a lot of teams have an icebreaker at the beginning of every meeting or some sort of informational question. That seems a little silly because after you’ve worked together a little while, you don’t really need an icebreaker to get to know each other.  You’ve been working together but, what you might find out is the get-to-know-you question each time at a meeting is really the same kind of thing that you would do naturally if you were walking around an office. You’d run into somebody in the lunchroom and, you know, “Hey, how was your weekend? Oh, you play football or your kids play soccer?”, that kind of stuff. We try to build that into different team meetings and different parts of our culture.

Another thing that is probably one of the bigger points that we like to tell folks that are joining us, is that we have two all-company meetings every year. Every six months, in the summer it’s in Deer Valley, Utah and in the winter, it’s in Las Vegas, the entire company gets together to get some work done in person, to see each other face-to-face, to have a company party for an evening or a company dinner, to hear from Jay and Dave, our president, about what’s happening, what’s the state of the union. There is a little bit of in-person for about five days every six months. That’s enough that when you get to know someone and you spend a bunch of focused time with them, it’s really fun and then you’re not together long enough that their everyday bad habits will annoy you, like the office worker that pops the popcorn and sets off the smoke alarm, or-

Drew: Right, right.

Gerald: Decides to microwave salmon for lunch or something. We’re not around each other long enough to be annoyed by those sort of mundane routine habits, so it’s kind of a family reunion every six months, combined with freshman orientation for the new folks that have never experienced it before.

Drew: When you bring everybody together, that’s a four- or five-day event?

Gerald: Yes.

Drew: Okay, but that entire time is orchestrated, right? You’ve got-

Gerald: Absolutely, yes.

Drew: I’ve got a schedule and I’m going to be here at 8 and I’m going to be there at 10:30, and-

Gerald: Yeah, it’s a minute-by-minute, if you will, schedule and it’s focused mostly on getting people together that need to have some face time. If the job teams that all support each other to support a certain client or a certain region, they will have team meetings on a certain day, and then one day is reserved for leadership to get together. Usually, that’s at the beginning. Another day is reserved for the sort of all-company presentation, all-company dinner. It’s pretty scripted, but there’s a lot of time for fun and, of course, there’s evenings out. You get to have dinner with your team and your friends. It’s probably one of the biggest things that we hear on surveys, that help us keep our culture alive, even though the other 50 weeks out of the year, we don’t really see each other face-to-face.

Drew: In terms of that, I know a lot of companies, a lot of agencies, do sort of company outings or whatever, but in that case, they’re not bringing spouses or anything. That’s like a work week, right?

Gerald: Correct, and in fact, spouses are explicitly not invited, except for like the last day, if you’re going to stay a few days later in Vegas or Deer Valley, then of course, they’re welcome to come say hi. No, it’s a work meeting, absolutely.

Drew: I have to think at some point, somebody was like, “Oh, my God, that’s 400 people that you’re flying to Utah or Vegas.” I also have to think that somehow that offsets in that you don’t have a building for 400 people, so talk a little bit about the cost of maintaining a virtual staff and some of the pros and cons of that.

Gerald: Yes, if you’re going to have all-company meetings, there’s a significant cost to fly people around the country and get them there. The other side of that is that we don’t have offices. We have one original office in Jacobstown, Pennsylvania that I think six people choose to go into occasionally. They don’t go in all the time, but that’s where Dave says that’s the original office. Really, that’s the cost benefit you have to weigh if you’re thinking about doing it, would be that.

The other sort of cost to think of is when someone starts, they probably haven’t worked from home before, so we have a small budget, it’s like $500 or $600 that they can use to get an extra monitor or two, if they need a microphone. We provide laptops and that sort of thing, but we give people a little bit of money to use how they need to get themselves set up, and it looks differently for everyone. Again, that’s consistent with our culture. We outlay what they need to have, but we also just give them the money and say buy what else you need. If you need a fancy pen to be productive, great. That comes out of that budget, or a certain mouse or whatever.

Drew: Right.

Gerald: It’s pretty customizable and up to them. We just put a guardrail around the amount. That’s sort of the equipment cost, if you will. The other cost is really the time spending training. I mentioned earlier, it’s about a five-week curriculum, give or take, depending on the role. That’s a lot of live, instructor-led, online stuff, some self-paced. That’s a cost, if you will, upfront is we spend a lot of time training. We hear very often from people that they’ve never had the amount or the focus of training at other places that they’ve worked. I believe it pays dividends. I couldn’t give you an exact amount that I’m getting back on my ROI for that, but we hear overwhelmingly positive stuff about the training, so much so that we did away with the in-person training on the all-company trips.

Drew: But really, part of that training is just the work that you guys do. Programmatic is complicated.

Gerald: Absolutely.

Drew: So you’d have a lot of training whether you were an intact team or not, right?

Gerald: There would be a lot of training, that I think we need to spend more time on it from a virtual environment perspective, because you can’t just, I mean, you can screen-share and that sort of thing, but you’re not going to poke your head up over a cubicle in a big open room and just ask someone a question. There’s a few more barriers to that.

Drew: Sure.

Gerald: You have to bug them on Skype, see if they’re free. We spend enough time up front that they feel, I would say 90% of them, feel very well-prepared for at least the basic level work that they have to do.

Drew: When you think about the costs, are there ongoing costs? If I was a Goodway employee, do I get any sort of a stipend for my home office expenses, like Internet and all of that? Or is that all just part-

Gerald: Absolutely.

Drew: Okay.

Gerald: We give a flat $125 a month for your Internet and phone, and that’s-

Drew: It’s still quite a bit cheaper than rent for a building for 400 people.

Gerald: Oh, my gosh, yeah, absolutely, and it encourages people not to skimp. If you’re early in your career and you’re trying to save every penny and you think maybe a cheaper Internet connection is going to save a few dollars, that wouldn’t work for us, so we make sure we help out with that.


What’s Surprised Gerald the Most About an All-Virtual Company

Drew: As you look out over the landscape and you’ve been there a year and a half, what were some things that you expected to find that you either … what has surprised you as you’ve gone into this virtual environment? You’ve been there long enough now that I’m sure you’ve been surprised a couple of times.

Gerald: Sure, yeah. Working in HR, we call it employee enablement, but I always get surprised by interesting stuff that, from a personal perspective, the biggest thing, and just genuinely, it sounds squishy, from the bottom of my heart, but I absolutely am in love with working from home. I’m actually surprised by that. I thought that I was going to be that person that maybe I work in my home office, but then I’m go camp out at Starbucks for a little bit or go to a place I could do a hot desk and hang out and work with other people, because I wanted to be around people. I’m a hardcore extrovert. I need to bounce ideas off of folks.

I actually don’t do any of that. In fact, I get annoyed when I go to the coffee shop because it’s too loud and I can’t hop on a Skype call. The people that I want to be extroverted with, I need my quiet home office. For me, it was a huge surprise, even though I knew I could do it, but I actually love it. I’ll walk downstairs and get another cup of coffee in mid-morning and my daughter, who’s almost four, will come wheeling around the corner and give me a big hug, and my wife’s around, or the dog’s asleep at my foot. That kind of stuff, I didn’t really anticipate the impact that would have in a meaningful way when I started. I hear that echoed with a lot of people. That’s one thing, just as a personal story.

Some other things that are surprising, like I said earlier, I thought for sure everyone would be on video, that we would have these elaborate, really nice high-def cameras and it would be back and forth video calls all the time, because that’s some of what I experie