“I hate networking.” I can almost hear the collective moan from agency owners when the subject of networking comes up. Most of us think it’s either a waste of time or it makes us feel uncomfortable, like used car salesman uncomfortable.  

But in today’s world, networking is a necessity. And not just any networking, it’s a new landscape of the hyper-connected selling where social media networking and old school sales and communication skills are the keys to building personal influence and creating human connections.

My podcast guest is David JP Fisher or D-Fish to those who know and love him. He is a coach, speaker, author, and president of Rock Star Consulting where they love networking and all of the power, benefits and new business it can bring your way. His two most recent books, Networking in the 21st Century: Why Your Network Sucks and What to Do About It and Hyper Connected Selling: Winning More Business Through Personal Influence and Human Connection, are all about the power of networking.

Join D-Fish and I as we ramp up your new business, one personal interaction at a time with:

  • Why you can’t rely on referrals for new business
  • Networking: why it’s relational — not transactional
  • How to build your network so it’s stronger and serves your business better
  • Why size matters in your network — and why not every connection has to be a strong one
  • Leveraging the social capital you create and making the ask at a time where you don’t come off as desperate
  • How to build and nurture relationships
  • Why young professionals really need to work on building their network
  • The power of the one-on-one and taking the opportunity to build deep relationships with people
  • Making sure social media is actually in service of your network building
  • Why the way we sell has to change in response to the change in the way people buy
  • How to sell by being the expert and guiding people through the information they already have
  • Using thought leadership to position yourself to be the one people turn to for help
  • Why you should aim to be a micro-influencer for a specific niche instead of trying to influence a broad topic (like marketing, PR, digital, etc.)

David J.P. Fisher (D. Fish) is a speaker, coach, and best-selling author of 7 books including the best-selling “Hyper-Connected Selling: Winning More Business by Leveraging Digital Influence and Creating Human Connection” and “Networking in the 21st Century: Why Your Network Sucks and What to Do About It.” Building on 20 years of experience as an entrepreneur and sales professional, he combines nuanced strategy and real-world tactics to help professionals become more effective, efficient, and happy. He helps them understand the new landscape of Hyper-Connected Selling, where social media, networking, and old-school sales and communication skills are the key to providing value and staying relevant. He lives in Evanston, IL – next to a huge cemetery which helps him appreciate the value of every day.

To listen – you can visit the Build A Better Agency site (https://agencymanagementinstitute.com/david-fisher/) and grab either the iTunes or Stitcher files or just listen to it from the web.

If you’d rather just read the conversation, the transcript is below:

Table of Contents (Jump Straight to It!)

  1. Why Many Agency Owners Hate Selling & What to Do About It
  2. Networking & the Premise of David’s Book
  3. How to Properly Build Your Network
  4. How to Present Your Agency as an Authentic One
  5. How to Build and Nurture Professional Relationships
  6. Why You Should Be Networking Outside of the Office
  7. How Selling Has Changed for Service-Oriented Businesses
  8. Why You Need to Focus on Intent When Creating Content
  9. The Biggest Takeaway from David’s Book

If you’re going to take the risk of running an agency, shouldn’t you get the benefits too? Welcome to Agency Management Institute’s Build a Better Agency Podcast presented by HubSpot. We’ll show you how to build an agency that can scale and grow with better clients, invested employees and best of all, more money to the bottom line. Bring his 25 plus years of experience as both an agency owner and agency consultant to you, please welcome your host, Drew McLellan.

Drew McLellan: Welcome to another episode of Build a Better Agency. This is Drew McLellan your host. And I am excited to chat with our guest today. He is an expert on a topic that, I promise you, you think about every single day. And so we’re gonna really dig into that. So let me tell you a little bit about him and what we’re gonna talk about today. So David JP Fisher, or D-Fish, as he is known to everyone except for his mother, has a passion for growth and development that has allowed him to influence thousands of others during his professional career. Today he serves as a coach, speaker, author, and president of Rock Star Consulting. And there he continues to create a powerful impact on individual’s organizations as he works to help them become Rock Stars.

So he wrote a great book called Networking in the 21st Century: Why Your Network Sucks and What to Do About It. We’re gonna really dig deep into that. In writing that book, he built on 20 years of experience as an entrepreneur and a sales professional and he’s combined some nuanced strategies and real world tactics to help professionals become more effective, efficient and happy in creating networks and selling and just creating a circle around them.

He helps them understand the new landscape of the hyper connected selling. So we’re gonna talk about that, obviously. Where social media networking and old school sales and communication skills are the keys to building personal influence and creating human connections.

He’s got a brand new book out called Hyper-Connected Selling: Winning More Business Through Personal Influence and Human Connection, so we will chat about that as well. D-Fish, welcome to the show.

David Fisher: Thanks for having me, Drew.


Why Many Agency Owners Hate Selling & What to Do About It

Drew McLellan: Happy to have you. This is a topic, as you can imagine, that agency owners are both very interested in and a little afraid of. So most agency owners that I know don’t really love the selling. They typically grew up in the agency business so they’re really good at some aspect of agency life. And then, voila, they own an agency and now all of a sudden they have mouths to feed and so they have to go out and sell. So they struggle with it a little bit. Is that common when you come across folks that you’re working with?

David Fisher: Absolutely. It’s the field of dreams syndrome. Everybody thinks that they can just build it and people will come, right? But that’s not how it works at all. And unfortunately, there’s just so many amazingly skilled, amazingly experienced masters at their crafts who are not finding success in business because they’re just sitting there waiting for somebody to come and buy from them versus feeling comfortable going out and getting people and making that sale. So that is a very normal experience.

Drew McLellan: When I meet an agency owner, often what they will tell me is when I say, “Well, tell me about your business development,” they’ll say, “Oh you know, we are completely based on referrals.” And what I remind them is while referrals are awesome and they are a commentary on the work you do, it forces you to work with the people that walk in the door who may or may not be the right fit for your business.

David Fisher: Exactly. And just because you work by referrals, my next question is always so what is your referral process? What is your program to actually cultivate the referrals from the best customers, the ones that you want more of like them? And as you said, not, maybe, the referrals that you don’t want so much. Hope is not a business development strategy, right?


Networking & the Premise of David’s Book

Drew McLellan: Right. Absolutely. But I think a lot of agency owners struggle with they know they need to do it, but either their introverted or they’re too busy working in the business, or whatever it is. But they don’t really know how to leverage a network and how to create connections that are planting seeds that may tee up sales later on. So let’s talk a little bit about the networking side. I definitely want to dig into the selling side too, obviously, and they’re often interwoven. But let’s talk a little bit about the premise of the book, which is why your network sucks and what to do about it. So give us a little bit of foundation around that idea.

David Fisher: Absolutely. And you actually touched on, I think, one of the main challenges that we have with networking when you were talking about this idea of planting seeds. The biggest challenge, I think that we have with networking is that networking is not a linear process. Meaning, you don’t do X and get Y back automatically. And human beings really like that linear idea in our lives. We like the fact that if we throw a ball so hard, it’ll go so far but if we throw it twice as hard it’ll go twice as far. And networking and building that web of relationships around you, it just doesn’t work like that. In fact, I think that’s not really our fault. Our brains are not really wired for networking. One thing I always talk about is a number called Dunbar’s number. It’s a little bit of science. It makes me sound like I know what I’m talking about when I drop some names.

Drew McLellan: I like it.

David Fisher: But Robert Dunbar was an anthropologist who studied human relationships and he found that the average number of people that we can maintain relationships with is 148. So about 150 people. It’s really not that many if you think about how many people you have on your LinkedIn list or your Facebook list.

Drew McLellan: Right.

David Fisher: But the problem is there was another guy who, his name was Mark Granovetter, who did a study, very seminal study, that was called the Strength of Weak Ties. And he found that most networking advantages, most opportunities, come through people that we don’t know well, what he called a weak connection. Somebody you see between once a week and once a year.

Because what happens is it’s not that we get networking opportunity from the people that really like us, it’s from the people that have the opportunity. And the way they have that opportunity is they’re in different spheres of knowledge and influence. It’s that person that you run into at a conference once a year or the Chamber of Commerce event in your area every couple months, who lives in a very different world than you do and then goes, “Oh, hey, you know what? I have a friend I was talking to, I think they were trying to do some PR work. You guys should talk.”

And because of that conflict, we can only maintain so many relationships. But the more we have, the more effective we’re gonna be, there’s that conflict. And I think that’s why most of us really struggled, historically, with networking. And that’s why I think a lot of the “networking masters” were the people who were really out there hustling, were making all the phone calls and going to all the events and just having all these points of contact and it was just exhausting. And so, I think a lot of us just gave up. We’re like, well, it doesn’t even work anyways because I don’t see these linear benefits and I don’t even know how to structure this. And everybody tells me to network. I mean, what I love is everybody goes you should network. And nobody defines it. Nobody knows exactly what it is.

Drew McLellan: I think most people translate that to exactly what you’re talking about which is go to every chat, chat love your hat event. Whether it’s a Chamber event or whatever in your community, right?

David Fisher: Yep. Exactly. And to your point too, what if our personality isn’t really conducive to going out to those events? Some of us love them, some of us don’t like them. I think what really happened is that we’ve got this very ossified idea of what networking is. It’s this Chamber of Commerce, back of a restaurant, bad appetizers, getting a business card flung in our face, and that’s what networking is. And most of us don’t like that. We don’t want to be that person either throwing a business card in somebody’s face.

Drew McLellan: Right.

David Fisher: I think one of the mistakes we often make is that we view networking as transactional. And one of the points that I make is that networking is relational. Networking happens over time. Networking happens with more than one contact. It doesn’t mean you’re going to become BFF’s with everybody. But it does mean that it’s more than just, again, that business card exchange, that very superficial kind of smarmy feeling exchange for most of us.

Drew McLellan: Well, in fact, it’s what most people complain about at networking events. That they go and rather than decision makers being there, it’s basically all sales people and they don’t … A, it’s not their target, but B, that’s not who they want to be seen as.

David Fisher: Exactly. What I would almost suggest, though, is that one, it’s okay to be a salesperson. I’ve been in sales for my entire career and I know some people think sales is a four letter word. But many of us are good people. It’s okay. But the other thing is, if you walk into a room full of salespeople, great, that means that they work for an organization that is big enough that they have a sales team. So the way I look at this-

Drew McLellan: They could be your conduit in.

David Fisher: Yeah, exactly. And again, that’s this idea of not looking at it simply as a linear process. I have to run into that ideal prospect, that decision maker immediately. It’s okay, this is the person I met, they’re a sales person. Let me get to know them, let me find out some information about their company. Oh, hey do you know the marketing director at your organization? Could you introduce me? Something like that.


How to Properly Build Your Network

Drew McLellan: So, if what we’ve just talked about is the wrong way to build a network and it’s why our networks are not as strong or as effective, what should people do about it to build it properly so that it serves them and their business better?

David Fisher: Well, do we have a couple days to dive into this?

Drew McLellan: We do, yep. You and I will take bio breaks and we will just keep talking.

David Fisher: I love it.

Drew McLellan: Okay.

David Fisher: You know, the first thing that I think people really need to do is what we were just addressing which is just reconfigure how we approach it, right? I mean, this is such a … It’s so important to have the right mental framework to what we’re doing. To approach your network and your networking activities long term. To go, hey, my job today and tomorrow and the next day are to plant seeds, to cultivate relationships. To really, not necessarily get something for right now, although that would be great. But to make sure that I’m really, again, planting seeds that I can harvest down the line.

I really think that a good network requires a couple things. It does require a web of connections, right? It’s not just one or two people. Size can be very helpful here. And so one of the things that I think is important is that we do look to expand our network into those weak connections I was talking about earlier. You don’t have to become best friends with everybody, but again you do have to have a broad reach. The broader your reach, the more opportunities that are gonna come your way.

And the next thing that I would suggest is to look for ways to actually help your network before you’re looking for them to help you. One of the biggest mistakes I think people make is that they wait to build a network until they need something. They go, “Holy cow, we just looked at our numbers for last quarter and man they’re low.”

Drew McLellan: Exactly. Right. Then it’s panic networking.

David Fisher: Yeah. And I say this all the time, but it’s true. We can smell desperation a mile away.

Drew McLellan: Oh gosh yeah. Yep.

David Fisher: And it’s not sexy.

Drew McLellan: No.

David Fisher: It’s not good.

Drew McLellan: It’s really like the Axe, I think, of smells, don’t you think? It’s like that spray that 14-year-old boys wear.

David Fisher: Pretty much. And it has pretty much the same effect.

So I think that if you can make the leap and go I am going to invest in my network before I need something … There’s a great old Irish saying, you should always dig the well before you get thirsty. Or the other version, the best time to fix the roof is when the sun is shining. It’s the same thing. So you might be sitting there going, “Well gosh, things aren’t … I’m not in panic mode right now, business is good, things are going okay, I don’t have to work on networking now.” I would be like, that’s exactly when you should be diving into it.

And I think the place to start is to go, I am going to start building relationships. We can talk about some specific ways to do that in a moment. But I’m going to build these relationships and instead of going, how can I get something from them, I’m gonna start putting some positive chi into this process. I call it networking karma.

So if I’m going to walk into a room full of those salespeople, hey you know what? How can I help them? Are there people that I know that I can introduce them to that are prospects for them? Can I find ways to make connections? Because then, when I do need something, and we’re all gonna need something at some point, that’s fine, it’s not gonna be tough to ask. Right?

And I think that’s the other thing that most people don’t do is they actually don’t ask for help in a meaningful way. They just think that they can sit there and their network will give them a call and say, “Hey are you looking for more business?” And in fact, I mean, I do come from the sales world and one of the best things I learned as a very young sales person was, it never hurts to ask, right?

Drew McLellan: Right.

David Fisher: If you ask with a smile, you ask with … There’s a right way of doing it, giving people an out. But there’s nothing wrong with saying, hey I know you work over at company XYZ, I’d love to see if there’s some way for me to be of service to them. I love the work they do, could you introduce me to this decision maker? Or do you know anybody who’s in their marketing department or in their PR department or working with digital communication over there? I’d love an introduction. You know, that ask is so huge.


How to Present Your Agency as an Authentic One

Drew McLellan: I was just thinking about the whole concept of A, don’t start when you’re desperate; B, go in with a giving heart, if you will. And I think people, just like they can smell the Axe version of desperation, I think when you walk in with a sense of abundance and a sense of being helpful, I think they also smell that. And that’s the attitude most agencies want to give off to their prospects and clients is that we’re here to serve and we’re here to help.

So if you show up that way from the very beginning, then it becomes very authentic and real as to that’s who you are. And when I think across the landscape of agency owners I know, it’s kind of how they’re wired. It’s how they got into the business to begin with is because they want to help business people grow their business. And yes they want to be successful themselves, but they really do come from a very generous place. So that would probably make networking more comfortable, as well.

David Fisher: Right on. And that idea of authenticity, of alignment between what your company’s doing and who you are I think is so critical. One of the things I often point out to people is networking is something we do naturally. Every business relationship does start as a relationship, as a human relationship. And unless you live in a cave and are a hermit, you have these relationships already. The trick, I find, to making that leap, to being a great “networker” is simply to add some intention to it, to maybe be more intentional about, again, broadening your network. To be a little more intentional about helping people and finding ways of connecting them.

And then to be a little more intentional about asking for help. I think something you’ve probably found is that when you have people who are really comfortable with helping and are very service oriented, which is great, sometimes we feel a little uncomfortable making the ask, right? Making it about us for a little bit. But one of the things I always point out … I’ll ask a group of people if I’m speaking, for example, I’ll say, “Who in here likes to help people?” And everybody raises their hand. And I go, “Who likes it when somebody asks them for help?” And everybody raises their hand. I’m like, “Well, you have to give people that opportunity right?”

Drew McLellan: Absolutely, right.

David Fisher: I love helping people as much as I can, but I’m not psychic. I can’t be like, “Hey, you know what? I think that you are running an event for a great organization, you’d love to have a networking speaker, you don’t really have the budget for it, and I think you’d like me to discount my services so that I can come and really provide impact for your group.” Yeah, I don’t know that psychically. You have to call me and ask.

Drew McLellan: Right, absolutely.

David Fisher: And it’s the same thing if you’re running an agency and you love what you do, you love helping people, you know that you do great work, you know that there’s some opportunities for you to work with an organization, with a company. You’ve got a way in, that conduit. Until you leverage that conduit, you’re just stuck right back where you started. So I think that’s actually a big thing. It’s a little switch, but having that mentality of hey, it’s okay for me now to ask, to leverage this social capital that I’ve created, is so powerful.

Drew McLellan: Well, and again, when you are not in desperate need, the ask can come off more gently and it doesn’t sound like, “I’ve got to have business tomorrow or I’m going to shut my doors.” It is more off-hand, if you will, even though you’re intentional about it, and it feels different. And it’s easier to ask, I think because it’s just like a, “Hey, I’d love to meet him some time” as opposed to “Hey, do you think he has any room on his calendar tomorrow?”

David Fisher: Right.

Drew McLellan: Right?

David Fisher: And one thing that can be really challenging for people, and just call it as it is, if you’re really looking to make this transition to being successful at networking and business development, which, by the way, I think is going to be the way you’re going to have to be successful in the future. I don’t think there’s going to be a lot of other options available. But it can be really tough to make this transition because you might be listening going, “Yeah, but I do need that meeting tomorrow.” In some ways, it’s just a matter of going, “Okay, I’m going to have to put a little trust, a little faith in this. I’m going to have to take a long term view, still working hard.”

What I found is that the harder you work to build these relationships and to have that long term view, stuff does naturally come in earlier, right? You are going to have that person go, “Actually, you called at the right time. Let’s have a conversation.” But yeah, you’ve got to take away some of that desperation and fear because, ironically, it’s the best way of pushing someone away, right when you need it.


How to Build and Nurture Professional Relationships

Drew McLellan: So let’s talk a little bit about how do you build and nurture your relationship? What’s the best way to do that? Whether it’s 150 people or you’ve got a wider web of those weak connections that you were talking about, how in the world, as busy as everybody is, how do I actually, genuinely, nurture and grow those relationships?

David Fisher: Sure. I think that there’s a number of different approaches. And one of the things to keep in mind is that all of us are different, right? And I don’t think that there’s actually a cookie cutter this is how you do working.

Drew McLellan: Right, on Mondays do this, on Wednesdays do that.

David Fisher: Because we’re all different. I do think though that it’s about finding some activities that you feel comfortable with and performing those activities regularly, consistently and … There’s no magic to this. I often use the analogy of Mr. Miyagi from The Karate Kid. And the first Karate Kid, not the second one, that was atrocious. Pat Morita I’m talking about. But in teaching Daniel to do karate he was like, you know, paint the fence, wax the car, really simple, basic activities, but done over and over and repeated and done with, again, intention, they were very successful. So I do think that for the professionals looking to build their network and really starting to get some value benefit from it, and give some benefit from it, it’s about figuring out activities that you can fit in your schedule, that you do feel comfortable with, that do align with who you are, and doing them regularly.

So, to give you an example, if you’re kind of younger in your professional career, that might be age-wise or maybe you’re just kind of entering into a new industry, I think your time really needs to be spent building the web, right? Bringing more people into your sphere of influence. So in that case, it could be as simple as saying, “I’m going to go to a networking event once a month, every other week.” The kind of, what I call the singles bars of the networking world, which is those larger events. And no, you’re not going to find somebody and get married at that event, but you are going to make those first initial contacts, which can be very valuable.

Some people feel really comfortable online. This is where you could use a LinkedIn group, a Facebook group, using some sort of online community to make those first contacts. Then I think the next part is really taking the opportunity to build some deeper relationships with people. And again, deeper relationships does not mean I’m going to see this person every week or talk to them all the time. I am and always have been a huge fan of the one on one cup of coffee. There’s just so much that can be done in a 45 minute conversation.

And I do a lot of these are virtual cups of coffee, right? If I meet somebody who’s more nationally based. But I started my career, when I started my consulting firm, and I just went to a ton of networking events and everybody who I thought was a good prospect, I thought knew good prospects, or that I liked that I just kind of … I was talking to them like, “Wow, you’re a really sharp person. I might be able to get some knowledge from you.” I was young to the business world. I’d say, “Hey, can I buy you a cup of coffee?”

And in the beginning I was having maybe two cups of coffee a week with people, which I’m going to drink a cup of tea, anyways, why not have that conversation? But I look at these as first dates. And the difference between networking and dating of course is that you don’t have to keep dating just one person. But it’s really, I’m sitting at that table, and my job is to find out everything I can about that person; about what they’re working on, what they’re about, what they’re trying to accomplish in their business life, how I can help them be successful with that. As you said, it’s that giving heart. Like “Hey, I’m here to find out about you.” By the way, very naturally, human reciprocity means that they’re going to start asking about you.

Drew McLellan: Of course, yeah.

David Fisher: But that’s not where I’m staring. I’m starting with, “Tell me about you.” And even if … I was working with a client once, very successful, actually a lawyer, very successful lawyer, very accomplished, but very poor network. And the reason why is because she was very introverted. She was like the epitome of what somebody would be considered when they’re shy. And I was like, “Okay, let’s figure out what you’re comfortable with.” And she was comfortable having lunch with somebody, just with one person. She felt good in that environment. So that’s all she started doing was like I’m going to have lunch once a week with somebody, right? And she started with people that she really knew well and kind of then started to broaden out to people she wasn’t as comfortable with. But she got a ton of benefit from that, because in that conversation, great things came up, opportunities, what she was working on, what they were working on. They could make some connections. So that can be a great inroad.

And again, it’s people always telling me, “Well I’m so busy.” You’ve got to eat, right? One of the first books I ever read on this way, way back was Keith Rossi’s Never Eat Alone.

Drew McLellan: Yup, exactly.

David Fisher: And it’s a great book. But it was such an interesting concept. He’s like, you have to eat. So what happens when you invite somebody into that time that you’re going to, you need to spend, feeding yourself? So just bring a person there. It’s huge.

Drew McLellan: But that doesn’t happen by accident, right, you have to plan it.

David Fisher: Exactly.


Why You Should Be Networking Outside of the Office

Drew McLellan: You do have to block the time off for it. And what I find is, when I have coffee or drinks or lunch or dinner or whatever with somebody, it’s pretty rare that in the course of the conversation, I am not able to say, “Hey do you know so and so?” And when they say no, I say, “Oh, I’ve got to introduce you to that person.” That may be the only thing I do for them during that lunch or that gathering. But almost always, I know someone that could be helpful to them in some aspect of whatever they’re trying to get done. And it just takes a simple introduction. It’s not taxing on me.

But those meetings only happen, and those opportunities to help only happen if your calendar is created with those windows of opportunity in mind. I think that’s where alot agency owners get themselves into a bind is that they look at their calendar and there’s no room for the day. One of the things that I talk to a lot of agency owners about is at least a couple times a week, you should start your day by not going into the office but by start your day by having a breakfast, a coffee, a fill in the blank. Because once you get into the office, your day is shot, right?

David Fisher: Right. You said it right on. I was going to come up with something pithy to say there, but let me just say this; you’re right on. Why not just … You’re going to have breakfast, you do it early. I know many, many successful professionals; they’re all morning people. Not all of them. I should say, there’s a couple night owls in there. But hey, if you call me and you say, “I’d really like to have breakfast with you at 7:30” or “Let’s go have a protein shake at eight o’clock or a smoothie.” They’re not doing anything.

Drew McLellan: Right.

David Fisher: And what a great way of starting the day. To your point as well, that offer of an introduction … It might not take a lot for you to do that. I think one of the things we’re also afraid of is that we are going to have to really put a lot of effort into helping other people. Just the idea of going, “Oh, you should talk to so and so. I’ve got his cell number, let me just text him right now. Hey you really need to meet Sue, she’s awesome, here’s her number. Cool.” And then you move on.

Or even just the fact that you’re … And this sounds a little hippie dippie, but just the fact that you’re sharing time with another human being, especially in an environment and a context right now where it’s just so, there’s so much noise, and it’s so busy, just the fact that you’re like, “Hey, let’s have a conversation for 40 minutes that’s just me and you.” And sometimes, you never know if hey, that person just needed somebody to talk to. You don’t know what kind of day that person’s having, what kind of quarter they’re having, the stress they’re under, whatever. Sometimes just being able to talk to somebody else can be so valuable. And that’s a huge gift you can give to somebody.

I’ve actually had that experience on both ends. I know there’s people who have talked to me during times, they didn’t even know it, but the fact that they kind of had that understanding ear and I was able to talk to them and connect with them as a person at a time when maybe life was a little stressful for me. I mean, I’m forever grateful for that.

Drew McLellan: Yeah, the humanity of it should not be forgotten.

David Fisher: Yeah, weird, right?

Drew McLellan: Yeah, right.

David Fisher: That’s the one thing computers can’t do.

Drew McLellan: And you know a lot of times, or most of us, we exist in this sort of group mentality, whether it’s on Facebook or group emails or at the office or whatever, and so a lot of times we don’t have a lot of one on one time with very many people in our life. So it also is … There’s an intimacy to the connection that is very different.

David Fisher: Very different. Very powerful. As I said, I’m a huge fan of that one on one, having a cup of coffee. I actually do enjoy craft beer, so there’s a lot of my friends here in the Chicago area where just ever